m&p40 vs 1911's


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cgarofalo
January 2, 2011, 08:09 PM
Whats the difference besides the frames and slimness of the 1911?;)

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Narwhal
January 2, 2011, 08:31 PM
To paint with a really broad brush, the M&P is more reliable but 1911's are generally more accurate due their single action trigger. If you compare the .40 to the .45, the M&P will hold twice as many more rounds, 16 for the M&P 40 vs 8 for the typical 1911. The M&P 40 is also about 25% lighter, which means it will be easier to carry but also be more prone to recoil. This is offset a little bit by the weight of 15 rounds in an M&P magazine.

Also, the M&P usually has no safeties, although thumb safeties, magazine safeties, and internal locks are available should you desire them. The 1911 has the thumb safety and the grip safety.

Overall, the M&P is generally more abuse tolerant, reliable, easier to field strip/clean, offers more firepower, and easier to carry. A 1911 is more accurate, easier to shoot, a bit more versatile since they can be carried cocked or uncocked, and offers more firepower per shot but less firepower overall.

cgarofalo
January 2, 2011, 08:39 PM
Thanks 4 the reply. Im doubting about the m&p40 reliability since I have a new one and put 200 rds already and had 2 FTF. May be the ammo? may be a lemon m&p? may be the break-in period? Dunno...

G27RR
January 2, 2011, 09:06 PM
They are quite different and it would take a while to point out everything. The Smith is striker fired vs hammer fired, for one thing. Polymer vs steel or alloy frames, double stack vs single stack magazines, no grip safety vs grip safety, etc. I have an M&P40, and it's probably a good duty or HD gun, but I choose to carry a 1911 due to slimness and the ease of shooting it well.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/SWMP40-1.jpg

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/800600/STIShadow800600.jpg

Lucas_Y
January 2, 2011, 09:13 PM
An apple and an orange. Both are fruit, but both are different.

Jaywalker
January 2, 2011, 09:50 PM
Narwhal: To paint with a really broad brush, the M&P is more reliable but 1911's are generally more accurate due their single action trigger. If you compare the .40 to the .45, the M&P will hold twice as many more rounds, 16 for the M&P 40 vs 8 for the typical 1911. The M&P 40 is also about 25% lighter, which means it will be easier to carry but also be more prone to recoil. This is offset a little bit by the weight of 15 rounds in an M&P magazine.

Also, the M&P usually has no safeties, although thumb safeties, magazine safeties, and internal locks are available should you desire them. The 1911 has the thumb safety and the grip safety.

Overall, the M&P is generally more abuse tolerant, reliable, easier to field strip/clean, offers more firepower, and easier to carry. A 1911 is more accurate, easier to shoot, a bit more versatile since they can be carried cocked or uncocked, and offers more firepower per shot but less firepower overall.
That's an excellent functional rundown. Very nice.

Skylerbone
January 2, 2011, 09:51 PM
In a word everything. One is not meant to be at all similar to the other.

The 1911 in its original form had standardized, interchangable parts and could be stripped down to a pile of parts using a spent casing and the pistol's parts alone. Today, you would likely pinch yourself for finding an aftermarket part to replace anything that breaks.

The M&P uses the concept of modular components that allow quick change out of part groupings, an interupted rail system (which also allows the frame rails to be replaced if worn or damaged) and a polymer frame to reduce weight. It is quicker to field strip but a detail strip requires a punch, hammer and pliers to remove the roll pins. It also features a ramped barrel that aids in feeding.

The 1911 is generally speaking a great shooter, has an amazing trigger feel, longer sight radius and will require little to be an enjoyable shooter.

The M&P in my opinion (I own 3) is very accurate in its own right, has a terrible, heavy, gritty trigger which is easy to remedy, can be fitted to different sized hands, has less muzzle rise and is significantly lighter at 24 oz. vs 40 oz. for a govt. 1911.

The M&Ps have proven themselves to me having now put some 4,000 rounds through them combined, more than half of those through the 40 S&W, without a single failure. I have used: 1 box of Rem. UMC, 1 box of Hornady Personal Defense and around 2,500 reloads including LSWC, Hornady XTP HPs, Nosler HPs and Berry's Plated.

Before ditching your M&P, I would suggest evaluating the barrel ramp and your lubrication habbits. I know a guy who was convinced that heavy moly grease slathered on his 1911 would make it shoot smoothly. All it did was keep it from functioning and spattering everyone with grease everytime it did shoot.

Neither the 1911 nor the M&P needs more than a few drops of oil to run properly.

Skylerbone
January 2, 2011, 09:55 PM
I might add that while the M&P does not have an exposed hammer and is listed as a double action pistol that unlike most poly guns the striker is fully cocked before the trigger is depressed so it's technically firing single action. Pistols like the Glock are partially cocked and the trigger finishes cocking the striker before releasing the sear.

Narwhal
January 3, 2011, 04:29 AM
In regard to the OP's reliability problem with the M&P, what kind of failures are you having?

Either way, I'd give it more than 200 rounds. take it up to 500 and see what happens. I've 5 M&P's with 10,000 rounds downrange and can count on one hand the number of failures I've experienced, and none that couldn't be easily remedied with a tap rack.

9mmepiphany
January 3, 2011, 01:15 PM
Thanks 4 the reply. Im doubting about the m&p40 reliability since I have a new one and put 200 rds already and had 2 FTF. May be the ammo? may be a lemon m&p? may be the break-in period? Dunno...

First do you mean FTF as in Feeding or Firing?

How old is your M&P40?

Which ammo were you using?

After their initial teething problems, the M&P has a pretty good record for reliability. It helps that it was designed around the .40 cartridge.

Fastcast
January 3, 2011, 01:50 PM
Um, one's a century old battle proven classic, the other, just another plastic. :cool:

cgarofalo
January 3, 2011, 06:03 PM
Well, I bought my m&p40 last week from my local authorized S&W gun dealer. SO its a new gun out of da box.
The problem was Failure to Feed. The first day I fired 100 rds of Fiocchi 180 GR FMJ (blue box) and Not a single Failure to Feed occured. Next day,(after I cleaned my gun) went to the range again BUT with 100 Rounds of Fiocchi 170 Grain FMJ TRUNCATED (red box) and 2 Failure to Feed Occured.
Later that day I shot around 25 rds of Federal Classic 180Gr HP with no problem at all.
Ill see if I can post pics of the ammo. Aniway, you can google pics and they will show up!!

cgarofalo
January 3, 2011, 06:16 PM
http://patriotsupplyusa.com/online/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Fiocchi_Shooting_4cb76a69e94ec.jpg

cgarofalo
January 3, 2011, 06:20 PM
http://www.ustacticaloutpost.com/images/200/2006623.jpg

sigbear
January 3, 2011, 06:21 PM
I don't own a M&P but have shot mannnnnnnnnnny, do own a S&W 1911 though.

I went on a tour of the S&W factory last summer with a bunch of guy's and after the wonderful tour we went to the firing range and shot a M&P 9mm, 1911 in 9mm and 1911 .45.

We put the M&P away real quick after shooting the 1911's and all of us picked the 1911 .45 as a favorite of the 3. Not even one guy in our group picked the M&P over either 1911

You must not have shot a 1911 alongside the M&P, you couldn't have.

Sigbear

cgarofalo
January 4, 2011, 02:25 AM
So, any toughts about?

Hagen442
January 4, 2011, 04:49 AM
The M&P Platform is Modern Tuperware.
The 1911 Platform is the Classic.

Trigun
January 4, 2011, 04:56 AM
A 1911 is a gun that combined art and workmanship, at the same time give you good accuracy and reliability that is a gun that American must have. M&P is a tool, a shooting iron that give you the same function just like a 1911 but is no eye candy.

Edmond

Narwhal
January 4, 2011, 06:25 AM
Stick with american made ammo for another few hundred rounds and see what happens with your M&P. That's my only recommendation. Break in is seemingly real for some pistols. I had an H&K USP that was constantly failing to feed for the first 300 rounds. After that it magically worked at 100%. Most of my failures with M&P, rare as they have been, have occurred when they were new. After 1000 rounds or so, reliability seems to increase.

Skylerbone
January 4, 2011, 11:14 AM
There are things that can be done to improve function on a shorter timeline and you'll find them posted all over the Internet. That said, I won't disclose more as damage may result and that simply isn't worth it. Be patient, practice, practice some more and be aware of the opportunity to practice malfunction drills when they happen in real time.

MidwestRookie
January 4, 2011, 09:01 PM
i shot an m&p40 at the local indoor range today with a bag of their reloads and it was awesome...very accurate. im a big fan of the .40 round now. also liked the mp40 way more than the xd45. it wasnt even close..

Narwhal
January 5, 2011, 03:40 AM
Although I feel your intentions are good, I must slightly contest the following statement:

I might add that while the M&P does not have an exposed hammer and is listed as a double action pistol that unlike most poly guns the striker is fully cocked before the trigger is depressed so it's technically firing single action. Pistols like the Glock are partially cocked and the trigger finishes cocking the striker before releasing the sear.

According to renowned M&P gunsmith Dan Burwell (http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=517&st=0&p=3666&#entry3666), the striker is:

"Mostly cocked
pulling the trigger rotates the sear downwards, the angle on the rear face of the sear causes a caming action against the striker moving the striker to the rear very slightly, thus finishing the "cocking".

Dan"

Paul Scarlata, of "Shooting Times" magazine, concurs, stating here (http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index2.html):
As the M&P slide goes forward, the tail of the striker remains in a partially cocked position. The M&P uses a double-action-only (DAO) trigger that provides a 6.5-pound trigger stroke of 0.30 inches, which completely retracts the striker before tripping the sear. The trigger pull is exactly the same for each shot, providing the legendary consistency and accuracy of the double-action revolver. Another nice touch is a trigger overtravel stop that eliminates overtravel after the trigger trips the sear, which reduces the likelihood of flinching and thus enhances accuracy.

Elmer
January 5, 2011, 04:08 AM
Um, one's a century old battle proven classic, the other, just another plastic. :cool:

Yup.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWspringf.jpg

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_M203_on_M4_Carbine_lg.jpg

Fastcast
January 5, 2011, 07:36 AM
Haha Elmer....That's really cute but too bad your analogy is simple minded foolishness.....Comparing rifles to pistols? lol

Last I checked 1911s don't need manually cocked after each shot. You can get them with light rails & ambidextrous controls if you like. Its trigger blows away the M&P so in the hands of a trained operator, quicker, more accurate follow up shots are certain. What exactly than makes the M&P a Ferrari and the 1911 a Model T?....A couple extra rounds & a cheap, knock em out by the truck load plastic frame? :scrutiny:

Did Sgt. York need a light rail, a couple extra rounds and a plastic frame to receive that Medal of Honor?

What exactly has the M&P accomplished, a few police department contracts? lol

Are any elite trained fighters using M&Ps?

Who knows maybe they'll receive the next US military sidearm contract, until then......should I continue on? ;)

Hangingrock
January 5, 2011, 08:29 AM
The M&P comparison to the 1911 series pistol apples and oranges design concepts from different time periods. As for comparison of the 40S&W and 45ACP neither one is a 100% shot show stopper but there are exceptions to that premise. Accuracy that’s debatable as the gold standard for PDW usage is apparently 10yds more or less. Ergonomics, ambidextrous, practicality, and cost effectiveness qualities would tend to favor the more recent design as opposed to the older design.

mcdonl
January 5, 2011, 09:05 AM
Simpleminded foolishness... that was a little harsh.

To the OP, they are both guns... and if you look hard enough you can get one for $400... nuff said. Buy them both.

Fastcast
January 5, 2011, 09:14 AM
Simpleminded foolishness... that was a little harsh.



Well, maybe but comparing semi-auto and bolt action rifles to pistols is pretty silly.......Is that politically correct word more palatable for your modern way of thinking? :cool:

mcdonl
January 5, 2011, 09:16 AM
Well, maybe but comparing semi-auto and bolt action rifles to pistols is pretty silly.......Is that politically correct word more palatable for your modern way of thinking?

Me, politically correct... yeah... My name is Leroy... nice to meet you. Clearly you have never seen my posts before.

All I was saying it is rude and low road to call someone simpleminded. Not interested in a pissing contest just saying that it is not nice to call people names.

Fastcast
January 5, 2011, 09:36 AM
Give me a break Leroy....I hardly see how one can construe an action to name calling but people do sure seem to have thin skin these days. :o

You have a good day and how about we get back on topic now?

Joe

mcdonl
January 5, 2011, 09:57 AM
Peace.

Like I said, I think they are both good guns. Well, one is more a platform but still... both good guns.

Skylerbone
January 5, 2011, 11:32 AM
Works for me, Narwhal. Either way, as mine sits that .30 sear tail is now much shorter and the sear angle modified. It scales near 3.5 lbs. and feels as good as many single action triggers, not at all like the double action it lists as.

Good catch though.

Elmer
January 5, 2011, 06:22 PM
Give me a break Leroy....I hardly see how one can construe an action to name calling but people do sure seem to have thin skin these days. :o

You have a good day and how about we get back on topic now?

Joe

Joe, do you routinely tell people their statements are "simple minded foolishness" in real life?

If so, I'd guess you're an exceptionally large man with bad manners, a dentist's favorite customer, or you don't hang out much with folks.

Fastcast
January 5, 2011, 08:23 PM
Elmer, you put the silly picture up and made the simple statement "yup".....I just called it as I seen it. A foolish comparison.

People that know me well, know I don't mince words and some may not like it but other respect it and that's fine by me.

BTW.....I do have all my teeth but one and yes the dentist did make plenty of money off me seeing as the root canal (I didn't want in the first place) didn't work so he pulled the tooth anyway. :cuss:

Skylerbone
January 5, 2011, 09:14 PM
I think the OP deserves better than a personal squabble here. Humor is humor, disagreement just that. Anyone else have comment on whether he should trust the M&P or perhaps consider a 1911 (I think what he was getting at).

To the OP, yes I've modified all three of mine, one with aftermarket parts (two if you count sights) and all of the work done by me. If you are unfamiliar with what to do, a qualified gun smith can perform "reliability" work for (usually) under $100. It is rather basic, depending on your level of competency but again, especially with what is considered an extremely reliable platform already, easy to over do and screw up.

If you are familiar with the barrel feed ramp you could try a bit of Flitz Polish on a Q-tip as a starter. You'd likely go through the box before removing too much metal with this method. Also, if the cotton snags on the ramp, you may find the source of your problem ie. a burr or heavy tool marks. It could be as simple as a stiff recoil spring (the flat coil one under the slide) in which case you could simply unload the pistol, triple check it, point it in a safe direction and practice dryfiring it and working the slide. Some gloves will help.

9mmepiphany
January 5, 2011, 09:33 PM
I think we've exhausted the useful information the OP is going to get out of this thread

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