Anyone from Oregon that could help me find a muzzleloader to hunt with?


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mickeydim468
January 3, 2011, 04:41 PM
Oregon has some whacky rules about their muzzleloader hunting for deer/elk. Not all of the modern muzzleloaders are legal here. Is there anyone from here that can tell me which modern muzzleloaders are legal here. I am under the impression that the ones that use 209 shotgun primers are illegal. Is this true?

Mike!

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TwoWalks
January 3, 2011, 09:27 PM
Muzzleloader

* Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, except for visually impaired hunters who have a visual acuity of ≤ 20/200 with lenses or visual field of ≤ 20 degrees (a permit is required; please see page 86). Open and peep sights made from alloys, plastic, or other materials that do not have the properties described above are legal sights. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.

* It is illegal to hunt with on-lead bullets, jacketed bullets, sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Conical lead or lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter and lead or lead alloy round balls used with cloth, paper, or felt patches are allowed.

* It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

* It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

* No other firearm may be used for hunting during a muzzleloader-only season (See definition page 10 or regulations book).

* Muzzleloading firearms with revolving actions are prohibited during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

Deer .40 caliber or larger
Elk .50 caliber or larger

Muzzleloader must have open or peep sights and open ignition.

The rules in Oregon (page 82 of 2009 Synopsis) defines legal muzzleloaders that can be used during muzzleloader and series 600 hunts.

Inline muzzleloaders or any muzzleloader except a Matchlock can be used as long as it has open ignition.

Many other restrictions are placed on muzzleloaders that are to be used during muzzleloader season. No scopes, or optical sights, including fiber optic sights, can be used. No jacketed bullets, sabots, bullets who's length is more than twice the diameter of said bullet, no pellets, or center fire primers are legal. Loose powder is the only propellant that can be used.

These items can be used during other hunts that do not specify muzzlloader only. A handgun can not be carried during a muzzleloader hunt either.

mickeydim468
January 4, 2011, 12:32 AM
Thanks TwoWalks!

Wow, that's a mouthful, but unfortunately, I sort of got that from the hunter reg book. You mentioned however that fiber optic sights are not legal, and I thought they were legal. Which part tells you that they are not legal? I thought it was legal based on the last line of your first paragraph. but then in the second to the last paragraph in the second sentence you say that you can't use fiber optic sights. Can you clear this up for me?

I guess I need to be more clear about what I am asking for.

What makes and models of muzzle loading rifles are legal in Oregon? The only one I have found so far in my research that shoots using percussion caps, is an old Kentucky style rifle that I have to build myself, made by Traditions, and a CVA Elkhorn Pro, which works using #11 caps, musket, or 209 primers.

Mike!

madcratebuilder
January 4, 2011, 08:29 AM
The OR muzzle loading regs are written for the more traditional muzzle loaders. Something like a TC Hawken or Lyman Plains rifle well do the job.

mickeydim468
January 4, 2011, 11:25 AM
That's better Madcratebuilder,

Specific models and manufacturers. I want to have a choice, but there are so many hundreds of rifle models out there to look at that do not qualify for Oregon, I need the list narrowed by you wonderful folks who are in the know about muzzle loading rifles. This is the first one I have ever shopped for, so I came here where I knew you guys could help me.

Thanks, and keep em coming!

Mike!

TwoWalks
January 4, 2011, 11:30 AM
Many other restrictions are placed on muzzleloaders that are to be used during muzzleloader season. No scopes, or optical sights, including fiber optic sights, can be used. No jacketed bullets, sabots, bullets who's length is more than twice the diameter of said bullet, no pellets, or center fire primers are legal. Loose powder is the only propellant that can be used.

The following applies if you use a muzzleloader during Non Muzzleloading seasons.
These items can be used during other hunts that do not specify muzzlloader only. A handgun can not be carried during a muzzleloader hunt either.

Cosmoline
January 4, 2011, 12:34 PM
Why do you want to stick with a modern design? It seems to me that's precisely what Oregon's rules are trying to prevent. You can save yourself the headache by shooting PRB out of a traditional muzzleloader.

If you're near Springfield the folks at the Gun Works are really nice and helpful. I was down there in 2009 and they have a great selection of traditional muzzleloaders.

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm

arcticap
January 4, 2011, 01:36 PM
TC makes the Northwest Explorer edition which is similar to their Omega inline but is fitted with an exposed #11 nipple to meet the Oregon restrictions.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/northwest_explorer.php

mickeydim468
January 4, 2011, 02:49 PM
Cosmoline wrote:
You can save yourself the headache by shooting PRB out of a traditional muzzleloader.

What is PRB? I am new to this and do not understand.

Thanks,

Mike!

arcticap
January 4, 2011, 03:12 PM
PRB means "patched round ball".
Some black powder gun barrels are designed to shoot patched round balls while other barrels are designed to shoot conical bullets or sabots.
And some medium twist barrels can shoot both.

A traditional muzzle loader is one that most commonly has a sidelock, which is the old fashion style percussion lock. Or also a flintlock. Many of those traditional guns are used to shoot PRB's, but not all of them since many have medium twist barrels.
The TC Northwest Explorer edition mentioned above has a medium 1 in 48" twist barrel for shooting both PRB's and conical bullets.
Because it has an inline design, it's considered to have more reliable ignition.
And because it has a removable breechplug, it's easier to thoroughly clean.

mickeydim468
January 4, 2011, 03:28 PM
is 1:28" twist a good one? If not, what would be better?

Mike!

arcticap
January 4, 2011, 03:45 PM
1 in 28" is a fast twist for shooting conical bullets. It will usually shoot conical bullets with more accuracy and at longer range than a slower twist barrel.
But it probably won't shoot PRB's very well with heavy hunting loads.
Conical bullets are very lethal for hunting large game.

It's as much about what size game that you intend to shoot and at what distance than it is about which rifle would be better than another.
What kind of projectiles do you want to be able to fire with the rifle?
What kind of distances/terrain will you be hunting/shooting?

mickeydim468
January 4, 2011, 03:59 PM
I intend to hunt deer/elk in thick woodsy terrain plus some more open shots to 150 yds. Conical bullets are OK as long as they are not longer than twice the diameter and are not jacketed.

Has anyone heard of an Austin & Halleck 420 50 cal ML? If so, what do you think of those. They also have the ignition systems. so they would be legal too.

As for traditional, I really don't want to stick with traditional. I like a synthetic stock for weather resistance etc...

Mike!

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 12:16 AM
I decided to bid on an Austin & Halleck ML rifle today and I won! It has all three ignition systems. The only thing I may have to modify, if you want to call it that, is the fiber optic sights. The jury is out as to whether I need to do that though. I will ask the local Sheriff and a game officer to see what is up for sure.

Thanks for all the help guys.

I am sure I will have more questions after I get the rifle. Until then, if you would like to see the rifle I bought, you can go here: Gunbroker Auction Results (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=208749686)

Mike!

Cosmoline
January 5, 2011, 01:53 AM
Inline muzzleloaders or any muzzleloader except a Matchlock can be used as long as it has open ignition.

So you can see the cap on that even when the bolt is closed? Interesting design.

fthomas
January 5, 2011, 02:46 AM
Mickey, I don't hunt in Orgeon, but own a Lyman Great Plains percussion in 54 cal, which from what I read would do for deer and elk in Oregon. It is an awesome rifle and extremely accurate. They are easily obtained new online and can be just as easily found used, but I caution you on buying a used Black Powder weapon if you do not know what you are looking at i.e. bore condition, lock condition, etc.

If I were you I would opt for a Lyman Great Plains or one of their other models. The quality is good out of the box. I believe you will be very pleased. As a side note the Great Plains does not replicate any particular rifle of a particular style or date, but is close enough in my opinion.

I also own a custom flintlock, but Lyman also makes the Great Plains in a flintlock. So you still have some choices to make.

There are other quality manufacturers out there as well. I just happen to be a big fan of Lyman. Great quality and excellent customer service and support.

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 02:47 AM
That is the way I understand it. You can see the cap, similarly to other in line bolt operated models with open ignition. I believe Traditions, T/C and CVA all have similar designs targeting the Northwest hunter, due to our strict ML regulations.

Mike!

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 02:50 AM
Thanks fthomas, but I just won a bid on an unfired rifle that was made by Austin & Halleck in 2006. You can see the rifle I got at the link in the post above. I think I will be very pleased with the new rifle, but if I am not, you all will be the first to know!

Mike!

madcratebuilder
January 5, 2011, 07:52 AM
mickeydim468, you should drive over to Springfield and check out this shop.

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm

Largest selection of black powder I have ever seen, hundreds and hundreds of rifles from factory to custom, new and old. Prices run from $200 to $10,000+.

I'm making the trip down from pdx Friday, be their at noon. Bring a sack of cash and all your visa cards.

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 03:13 PM
I wish I could go, but I have to work. I live in southwest OR, so it would be an all day trip for me. We don't have much selection around here, that's why I bought on the internet.

Thanks for the offer though. That would have been cool. Are they open on Saturday or Sunday? I wouldn't mind checking them out in the near future.

Mike!

RaiderANV
January 5, 2011, 08:36 PM
When Oregon said Primitive season they meant it.
Penn. is even tougher as you can only use a flintlock.

TwoWalks
January 5, 2011, 09:21 PM
You will love the rifle, but not during Oregons Primitive season. First it does not have an open ignition system as required. The optic sights are also illegal to use during primitive season. You could use the rifle during regular deer and elk season.

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 10:21 PM
First it does not have an open ignition system as required. The optic sights are also illegal to use during primitive season.

Then I will just have to build myself a Hawkins rifle then. No biggie!

I will be quite happy with what I chose and I will hunt with it too.

Thanks for the info!

Mike!

mickeydim468
January 5, 2011, 10:50 PM
The following is in response to Two Walks about the legality of the shooting platform I have chosen.

This is an excerpt from the Chuck Hawks website at this URL: Recomended Muzzleloader rifles by Randy Wakeman (http://www.chuckhawks.com/recommended_muzzleloaders.htm) Scroll about 1/3 way down and you will find this verbatim.
The Gorgeous Choice: The Austin & Halleck 420

Reviewed in greater detail elsewhere, the curly-maple stocked Austin & Halleck 420 .50 caliber looks like a $1000 gun, offers 3-way ignition making it 50 state legal, is extremely soft shooting, and shoots better than 1" at 100 yards out-of-the box in my hands. Yet, it costs less than $499 with two stocks, and the synthetic stocked 320 model has a MSRP of only $399.

It looks, handles, and feels like a quality center-fire rifle. The short throw bolt gives it extremely fast lock time, and its American "Bold" brand trigger (Minneapolis, MN) gives it a quality, adjustable trigger no "off-the-boat" imported muzzleloader can match. It looks great, shoots straight, and its open-breech quick-release bolt action is legal where hunting regulations prohibit 209 fired or closed-breech guns.

Just sayin!

Mike!

david58
January 6, 2011, 12:19 AM
I still don't understand hunting with a muzzleloader that "feels just like a centerfire." I use a traditional muzzleloader even in nonrestricted seasons - I just love shooting with the traditional guns, and with average shots being under 100 yards, a .54 in percussion is going to be sufficient for any Oregon game.

A well-tuned flinter will not be noticeably slower in ignition than a percussion. I dont think you could tell the ignition speed difference between a good traditional percussion lock and an inline.

And a patched, round ball is very effective on game!

Is the difference accepting the challenge and handicap of using the traditional gun versus simply trying to have another season to hunt?

Again, I just don't get it - just my mindset, I don't make the rules, but the beauty of a fine traditional rifle puts to shame any inline.

mickeydim468
January 6, 2011, 12:49 AM
The part about feel of a centerfire had no bearing on my purchase. Lock time was not part of my decision either. I am new to muzzleloader rifles, so I don't know the difference between the feel of one over another, nor do I know the difference between one lock time to another.

What I was mainly concerned with is the legality of hunting with a rifle in different conditions than can be done with a centerfire rifle. I am disabled and in chronic pain 24/7/365. Yet my Dr. doesn't believe that I am disabled to a point that would qualify me for a disabled hunter permit. I have a hard enough time getting around during regular rifle season, that maybe I will be able to do a season or two before I die where I may be able to call in some elk or catch the deer in the rut!

You folks from the midwest and east have, for the most part, quite liberal hunting seasons. The guy From PA notwithstanding. You guys can get 5 or 10 over the counter tags that last from the end of August to the end of the year. This may or may not be the case, but this is the way it appears to be portrayed on the Outdoor channeol. In Oregon, we get 1 month to take 1 Buck deer. Does are by special drawing. Cows are also special drawing. My elk hunt was 9 days long. I was successful, but it damn near killed me.

You guys that use the muzzle loader rifles for the allure of the olden days... More power to you, but not everyone has the same feelings you do. I don't feel that way about them at all. I do appreciate a beautifully crafted rifle, whether old style or new.

Do I think you are wrong for your beliefs? Nope! Not at all! So, please do not judge my reasoning behind my purchase. So it ain't your bag. Fine. Leave your opinion and move on.

The feeling that your post portrays is one that you feel you are somehow better than I am because you like the traditional rifles and that is the only right way of enjoying a muzzle loader rifle. I completely disagree!

Thanks for your post though.

Mike!

Old Time Hunter
January 6, 2011, 12:02 PM
I would have gone for the Lyman Great Plains Hunter and shot R.E.A.L bullets out of it with 90 grains of FFg...just my .02.

But then again...check out my moniker!

mickeydim468
January 6, 2011, 12:17 PM
Maybe my next ML will be just that. You make it sound fun!

Thanks OTH.

Mike!

TwoWalks
January 6, 2011, 06:42 PM
Mickey, I don't think anyone means to sound like they are better than you.

As far as the rifle you got, it is beautiful and I would hunt with it. The sound that you are hearing is the echo from a fight that took a lot of years and that fight was to get a season for Traditional muzzle loaders with traditional sights and ignition systems. We finally won and got our season and People are a might protective of it.

On the other side of the coin, I headed out during regular rifle season with my muzzle loader, and found myself on the losing end of a fight with the state.

That battle has now been won, so "3-way ignition making it 50 state legal" as far as Oregon, is accurate, just not during primitive season.

Build a Lyman Great plains from a kit and then you will have great Black Powder Muzzle Loaders for both "Primitive" and "Open" season.

Off topic a foot or two: Where you at in Oregon? I was born in Medford, went to college in Grants Pass and Ashland, worked and grew old in Eugene and Portland. Now residing in the Sierra Foothills of California but still hunt in NE Oregon.

Cosmoline
January 6, 2011, 07:09 PM
I think your location gives you an exemption from flak about traditional methods! LOL

mickeydim468
January 6, 2011, 08:15 PM
I am on SW coastline. I normally would hunt the Tioga unit. Does that ring a bell? ;-)

I don't want to pick a fight guys, it is just that according to my own research, the rifle I bought has an open breech whereas the percussion cap will be exposed to all of the elements just as they would be on the Lyman you recommended. The reg book clearly states that fiber optic sights are legal as long as no artificial light is used to illuminate them. Therefore I will have to disagree with your point that my rifle is not legal during, as you call it, "Primitive" season as long as I use approved loading components. I cannot find anywhere that Oregon designates the muzzleloader season as primitive. They just regulate it, and my modern in-line muzzleloader meets these regulations. Whether that was the intention of those who wrote the regulations or not, that is the end result IMO as well as many other Oregon hunters.

Mike!

TwoWalks
January 6, 2011, 09:00 PM
Mickey, first I need to apologize, I was wrong about that rifle. I thought from looking at the pictures the bolt enclosed the primer. Having done more reading, I realize the primer is exposed to the elements at all times, making it Oregon Legal for Black Powder Season.

Everyone I know and how I read the regulations state that you absolutely can not use fiber optic sights. You may get away with it, but I would not want to be the one with a nice rifle caught if your wrong.

Yes Tioga does ring a bell, drew a doe tag there about 30 years back.

Being on the high side of 60, I call any black powder only season, Primitive, just an old man reflecting.

david58
January 6, 2011, 09:26 PM
Sorry if my not getting it sounded if I was climbing on you, I just simply don't understand how in-lines fit into the primitive hunt. Now, mind you, it most certainly is legal, but my disconnect is just that - it doesn't fit in my head.

ML tags are on the decline in OR. With tag numbers in general going down, ML tags are the first to be trimmed in honor of the modern hunts. Used to be 400 either sex tags in my favorite unit, now there are about 20. But the centerfire tags remain....:cuss:

That said, unless one is a ML fanatic, you probably have a better chance for a tag with a centerfire or general season hunt than you do a ML-only hunt. In that case, given your physical limitations, a .243 might be a better choice for deer. A bit sketchy for elk, but certainly works there. A .50 is plenty for deer, but likewise sketchy for elk with a ML - so for deer only a .40 is a wonderful caliber. Almost no recoil, very high velocity (for a ML) and flat shooting. I have had, as have other friends, great success with deer hunting with a .40.

But as I said before in my earlier post, if you really want to hunt ML, particularly since we have such limited ML-only opportunities in OR, go traditional! Of course you're getting my opinion, which is just like something else we all have.......:D

mickeydim468
January 6, 2011, 11:30 PM
To both of you,

I didn't post here to fight, but after I found out more info and it didn't mesh with the info I was getting here, I didn't want to leave it there, so that mis-information was the final word. I have it on good authority that my information is correct, and here is the final words I will say about the fiber optic issue. It was explained to me by a fish and game officer that fiber optic sights had been illegal up until last year, and then they changed that so they can now be used legally as long as there are no electronics or magnification involved.

I understand the allure of the traditional ways, I do. Really! I am not a spring chicken myself, so I see the benefits of keeping an old tradition alive, but to get angry when someone else has a differing opinion, was what I was referring to. If you weren't, then I am sorry for reading something into it that wasn't there.

I am sure that eventually I will get back into better shape and may even be able to stalk prey like the rest of you have been able to for most of your lives, but right now I just need a little bit better chance than the centerfire season affords me.

I really loved the look of the rifle I bought, and since it is closer to what I am used to, I figured there would be a less steep learning curve transitioning from one platform to another.

Firearms and hunting is fairly new to me. I grew up in a citified area in Southern California, where hunting was something hicks and backwoods folks used to do back in the day. My parents didn't teach me that, it was just the impression I got, because no one I new hunted or did that sort of stuff. I had always secretly yearned to hunt, but there are not a lot of opportunities when you are working 60-70 hrs a week just to make the house payment. Then when the company I work for gave me the option to move anywhere I wanted to after I got injured, I chose the coastal area of Oregon, because it was beautiful. I had seen pictures of that area, and I had also secretly wanted to move there too.

Once I moved here to Oregon, I was introduced to hunting by seeing neighbors drive in with a dead elk in the back of the truck. That first year here I missed all of the hunting seasons, because I learned about them after all the tag deadlines had passed. I did as much research as I could over that winter and I bought my first centerfire rifle. Then I started scouting and learning what to look for and then hunted both deer and elk seasons. Then this year I did the same and this year I was successful in taking my first elk with my 300 Win Mag. In fact that is what I had for dinner tonight. It is the absolute best tasting meat I have ever eaten in my life.

So, you see, I am learning, I am also trying new things. The reason my company let me move here is because I can no longer work in the field, so now I sit at a desk as phone tech support for video and computer network techs across the country. This affords me lots of time to do research. I have also gotten pretty good at it. That is how I got to tonight and telling you guys what I found out.

Hope you understand, I am not a jerk, or just trying to pick fights. There is no fun in that for me whatsoever.

I hope we can become friends and allies in our quest to enjoy this sport/hobby we so dearly love.

Thanks,

Mike!

P.S. Sorry for the long read!

TwoWalks
January 7, 2011, 11:56 AM
Mickey, I can not speak for anyone except myself, but I never took any of your posts as trying to pick a fight.

My opinion was based on two things. Miss understanding in the beginning the lock system on your new rifle and second, not having heard the law was changed this past year on the optical fiber sights.

My personal preference is for Traditional Muzzle loaders, but that does not diminish my ability to admire a beautiful non traditional muzzle loader or cartridge rifle. You have gotten yourself one beautiful rifle to say the least and I hope you get many great hunts using it.

In the process of this conversation - I have also been blessed with the ability to learn something new.

mickeydim468
January 7, 2011, 12:49 PM
I am glad to hear it Two Walks.

I am glad to we got everything straight. I am looking forward to those many great hunts you referred to. And thank you for the compliment on the rifle. I am very excited about it. I can't wait for it to get here.

One an aside:
On top of hunting the Tioga unit, I love to fish the Marshfield Channel for salmon and steelhead. I hear the steelhead fishing is excellent this year up near the Millicoma Interpretive Center Hatchery on the N. Fork Millicoma river.

I am not sure I recognized where in California you were referring to. I have been all over the state as you have been all over Oregon. What made you decide to move to California? I hope you don't mind me asking.

Mike!

TwoWalks
January 7, 2011, 09:37 PM
Don't mind at all. Got married a few years ago to a wonderful Lady. She lived in Southern California and I was living in Portland. We decided to meet in the middle and moved to Sonora, Ca.

mickeydim468
January 8, 2011, 08:40 PM
I lived most of my life in Riverside County, but then we moved between Sacramento and San Francisco for a few years before moving up here. I never did visit Sonora though. I bet it is nice there.

Mike!

RWMC
January 8, 2011, 11:33 PM
I appreciate your signature...all of it.

mickeydim468
January 10, 2011, 12:28 PM
Thanks!

andrewstorm
January 20, 2011, 11:36 PM
you better get the best,and different strokes fer different folks,just think of any firearm as a piece of fine art some antiquated,and some post modern,but Austin halleck builds some fine smokers,

mickeydim468
January 21, 2011, 12:03 AM
My A&H came a few days ago. That wood stock is beautiful! I will be going up to the range tomorrow and do some testing, but I think this is going to be great!

Mike!

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