Owning a pistol at 18 in Arizona


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washambala
January 4, 2011, 12:53 AM
In regards to Arizona and federal law:
I know that you cant purchase a handgun between the age of 18 and 21 from an FFL. I know that you CAN purchase a handgun from a private individual between the ages of 18 and 21. I know that possession of a handgun is legal if you are at least 18. Am I right so far?

I understand the concept of a Straw purchase. Its illegal to give your buddy 500 bucks and say "Go buy me a Glock 17." However, I understand that a legal parent or gaurdian can legally give you a handgun if you are at least 18 (possibly 14 but thats an entirely different arguement and completely irrelevent).

So, assuming you are between 18 and 21, would it be considered a straw purchase if you gave your legal parent the money and they bought you the handgun as a gift?

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Jguy101
January 4, 2011, 01:06 AM
So, assuming you are between 18 and 21, would it be considered a straw purchase if you gave your legal parent the money and they bought you the handgun as a gift?Once you give him the money, it is no longer a "gift," so yes, it's a straw purchase. Actual gifts and private purchases are your (and my) only options at this point.

kingpin008
January 4, 2011, 01:08 AM
So, assuming you are between 18 and 21, would it be considered a straw purchase if you gave your legal parent the money and they bought you the handgun as a gift?

Yes, because it's not a gift, and they wouldn't be the actual purchaser.

It would be a gift only if they purchased it with their own money, and then gave it to you.

Spec ops Grunt
January 4, 2011, 02:10 AM
I hate when people don't know that you can sell a handgun to a 19 year old in a private purchase.

Any tips to convince a seller that it's legal?

NavyLCDR
January 4, 2011, 11:54 AM
Unfortunately, it will be very hard to convince something is legal if they feel it is illegal, because the onus is on them to prove it is illegal and it is just easier for them to go with their false assumptions than to prove them.

All you can do is print out 18 USC 922(x) and the "providing firearms to juveniles or minors" statutes in your state. Those statutes will show that it is illegal to provide a person with a handgun who is under the age of 18. Assuming 18 is the age limit in your state, of course.

nalioth
January 4, 2011, 04:18 PM
However, I understand that a legal parent or gaurdian can legally give you a handgun if you are at least 18 (possibly 14 but thats an entirely different arguement and completely irrelevent). If you're 18 in Arizona, anyone can gift you a handgun, not just your parents or legal guardian.

Under state laws, at 18 you are an adult.

TexasRifleman
January 4, 2011, 07:31 PM
So, assuming you are between 18 and 21, would it be considered a straw purchase if you gave your legal parent the money and they bought you the handgun as a gift?

Yes, that's a straw purchase since the intent is to get around the law. A true gift has no intention of getting around any laws, it's just one person wanting to do something nice for another.

As for convincing people it is legal to sell one in a private transaction, good luck. Some people are just goofy. I ran across a guy here locally who was absolutely convinced that he couldn't sell me a rifle he advertised unless I had a concealed handgun permit. I had one so it wasn't a problem, but he assured me it was a felony if he sold me the rifle without seeing my permit. Alrighty then :)

NMGonzo
January 4, 2011, 09:27 PM
Just wait till you are 21.

And also stay away from bars ...

NavyLCDR
January 4, 2011, 09:57 PM
Just wait till you are 21.

Why?

washambala
January 5, 2011, 12:16 AM
If you're 18 in Arizona, anyone can gift you a handgun, not just your parents or legal guardian.
I guess Im still thinking like a minor (probably a good thing).
And also stay away from bars ...
Dont worry. I plan on doing that regardless.

I guess Ill hold out unless I get lucky. I guess Ill just have to bury myself in rifles and shotguns because everyone knows, rifles and shotguns never get used in violent crimes.

wishin
January 5, 2011, 11:18 AM
I see nothing wrong with reciprocating a show of generosity on the part of a parent by buying the family member(s) a nice flat screen TV. Unfortunately, the season for gift exchange just passed, but maybe an anniversary or birthday is near.

armoredman
January 5, 2011, 11:59 AM
Buy it yourself from a private seller. Legal in AZ if you are 18. And that Fed statute says nobody may give/sell a gun to a minor WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE PARENTS. So if you are under 18, not a felon, and someone decides to give you a firearm, AND you get written permission from your folks, you are good under both FED and AZ state law.
What's nice is you may carry in AZ at 18, just not covered by Constitutional Carry until 21. For now.
BTW, Not an attorney, just reading relevant statutes.

NavyLCDR
January 5, 2011, 01:01 PM
Legal in AZ if you are 18. And that Fed statute says nobody may give/sell a gun to a minor WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE PARENTS. So if you are under 18, not a felon, and someone decides to give you a firearm, AND you get written permission from your folks, you are good under both FED and AZ state law.

armoredman,

That is NOT what the Federal statute allows for persons under 18 years old. You need to read ALL of the exceptions in 18 USC (x) for transfer of a handgun to a minor. Parental permission is NOT the ONLY exception that must be met!

18 USC (x)(3)(A) subparagraphs (i), (ii), (iii) AND (iv) are all joined by the word 'AND' at the end of (iii). ALL of the exceptions of (i), (ii), (iii) AND (iv) must be met, not just one of them.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(3) This subsection does not apply to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile—

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm,

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile’s possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law

The permanent transfer of a handgun to a juvenile under the age of 18 via gift or private sale (not involving inheritance) is still illegal according to Federal law, regardless of obtaining written parental permission and lack of prohibitions in state law because the transfer may only be temporary AND for one of the specific purposes in (i) above.

washambala
January 6, 2011, 12:45 AM
NavyLT- Does this apply to long guns as well?

NavyLCDR
January 6, 2011, 01:04 AM
No. Just handguns and handgun ammunition:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to—

jpatterson
January 6, 2011, 01:16 AM
Kansas here, but I was in the same boat a few years ago. I ended up doing a private party sale. Chances are there is a local gun trading website where you can probably find something you'd like. When I got my first handgun at 18 I told the man I purchased it from my age, and had the laws printed out and brought them with me.

Actually ended up trading a gentleman who was an LEO (before my 21st), he was not aware that it was legal but I showed him everything.

But honestly, I don't even know if you need to mention that you are not 21. If it does not come up, don't bother with it. I would insure that you have the laws on hand though, in the event that it does.

Good luck!

DEAHEAT
January 6, 2011, 01:20 AM
I live in Florida and for my 19th b-day my mom got me my first Bersa full size. I can legally car carry if its securely encased. Also i can legally own a handgun in the state of Florida but i cant buy ammo.....

That being said the cops around here are Nazis and have a field day anything they see and gun and there is no CCW. Cop was almost going to take me to jail i had to pull the statue card on him.

Bovice
January 6, 2011, 01:25 AM
It really sucks being 18. They tell you that you're an adult and they give you a little taste of freedom but you're on a short leash and they're crapping on you. It's not right.

Buy it from a private owner, and have your older friends/siblings or parents buy your ammo. Stick it to the man.

Bovice
January 6, 2011, 01:34 AM
That being said the cops around here are Nazis and have a field day anything they see and gun and there is no CCW. Cop was almost going to take me to jail i had to pull the statue card on him.

It's better to keep that gun out of sight. The glove box fits the definition of "securely encased" by Florida Law, but most people keep their vehicle registration in there also. If you get stopped for a burned out taillight or something benign and they ask to see registration etc. and you open the glove box to reveal a gun, they might give you a 9mm ear canal. Even if you warn them ahead of time, they get jumpy. Keep it anywhere but there.

DEAHEAT
January 6, 2011, 04:50 AM
It's better to keep that gun out of sight. The glove box fits the definition of "securely encased" by Florida Law, but most people keep their vehicle registration in there also. If you get stopped for a burned out taillight or something benign and they ask to see registration etc. and you open the glove box to reveal a gun, they might give you a 9mm ear canal. Even if you warn them ahead of time, they get jumpy. Keep it anywhere but there.

I keep would keep it zipped up on the passenger seat, i'm going to risk my life putting the gun in the glove box or in the back seat for what? So the cops won't give me a hard time i think not. There so dumb they don't even know the statues. I got pulled over going home from taco bell, i roll down the window he sees the case. Asks whats in i told him my gun. He says step out the car, i say are you for real? 45 mins later on the curve in my slippers and white beater i was free to go with a ticket for 51 in a 45. Also note they had 5 squad cars for a 19 year old in slippers with taco bell................ I took the liberty to call that <guy's> supervisor and told him i felt. He said he was going to talk to the Officer who did the traffic stop.

ObsidianOne
January 6, 2011, 05:49 AM
I was very interested in this as well.
I spoke to quite a few police officers regarding the matter and they all said, as far as carrying anyways, that it's a very fine gray area and it would most likely just cause problems.

Davek1977
January 6, 2011, 06:06 AM
SD statute provides even for concealed carry @18....The local Sheriff's office was my first stop after school the day I turned 18, and with the courthouse being literally across the street from my HS, I had my permit in mere minutes....

NavyLCDR
January 6, 2011, 07:26 PM
I was very interested in this as well.
I spoke to quite a few police officers regarding the matter and they all said, as far as carrying anyways, that it's a very fine gray area and it would most likely just cause problems.

So, because there is NOT a statute that makes it illegal, it is a gray area? The only thing that is gray is their understanding of AZ law.

I will never let the fact that a police officer is fuzzy about something to cause me to even consider not engaging in a legal act that I desire to engage in and even have a protected right to engage in.

If they can't handle the "grey" area in their head, then let their chief, sherrif, or judge handle it for them.

ObsidianOne
January 7, 2011, 01:23 AM
So, because there is NOT a statute that makes it illegal, it is a gray area? The only thing that is gray is their understanding of AZ law.

I will never let the fact that a police officer is fuzzy about something to cause me to even consider not engaging in a legal act that I desire to engage in and even have a protected right to engage in.

If they can't handle the "grey" area in their head, then let their chief, sherrif, or judge handle it for them.

The thing is, how many times are you going to be stopped? Until you've met every officer in your city?
It states that you must be 21 to purchase, but says nothing about possession or carrying.
The way it was explained to me is "wait until you're 21 to avoid the BS". I know it's not the answer that you want, as it certainly wasn't what I wanted; but sometimes it's better to choose your battles.

nalioth
January 7, 2011, 01:29 AM
The way it was explained to me is "wait until you're 21 to avoid the BS". I know it's not the answer that you want, as it certainly wasn't what I wanted; but sometimes it's better to choose your battles.I know quite a few lawyers that would love getting a client who might have been involved in one of these "gray area" arrests.

The law is the law, not what some officer may make up as they go along.

NavyLCDR
January 7, 2011, 01:59 AM
It states that you must be 21 to purchase, but says nothing about possession or carrying.
The way it was explained to me is "wait until you're 21 to avoid the BS". I know it's not the answer that you want, as it certainly wasn't what I wanted; but sometimes it's better to choose your battles.

The bold and underline part above is a widely held misconception. There is no Federal or Arizona statute that that prohibits the purchase of a handgun by a person 18 to 20 years of age. Please show me one and prove me wrong.

I'll help... the closest thing you will find is 18 USC 922 (b)(1) which prohibits an FFL from transferring a handgun to a person under 21 years of age. That statute in no way limits or prohibits the ability of a person 18 to 20 years of age from receiving a handgun from any other Arizona resident, either in the form of a gift or a purchase.

The thing is, how many times are you going to be stopped? Until you've met every officer in your city?

If need be.... yes. There is no gray area in this case at all. I would suggest this - go back and talk to those officers that said it was gray and ask them what statute they think that they could cite you for violating. I guarantee you they won't have an answer based upon any written statute.

washambala
January 7, 2011, 02:05 AM
SD statute provides even for concealed carry @18....The local Sheriff's office was my first stop after school the day I turned 18, and with the courthouse being literally across the street from my HS, I had my permit in mere minutes....
Which state do you live in? Im not familiar with any state that issues a permit at 18 and within the same day you apply.

NavyLCDR
January 7, 2011, 02:10 AM
Which state do you live in? Im not familiar with any state that issues a permit at 18 and within the same day you apply.

He answered your question in the part of the post that you quoted! SD = South Dakota. There are a few states that issue CC permits to 18 year olds. Some Washington State sheriff's offices have also been to to issue permits on the same day as applied for - Kitsap County is one.

South Dakota Statutes:
http://legis.state.sd.us/statutes/DisplayStatute.aspx?Statute=23-7-7.1&Type=Statute

23-7-7.1. Requirements for issuance of temporary permit--Time--Appeal of denial. A temporary permit to carry a concealed pistol shall be issued within five days of application to a person if the applicant:
(1) Is eighteen years of age or older;
(2) Has never pled guilty to, nolo contendere to, or been convicted of a felony or a crime of violence;
(3) Is not habitually in an intoxicated or drugged condition;
(4) Has no history of violence;
(5) Has not been found in the previous ten years to be a "danger to others" or a "danger to self" as defined in § 27A-1-1 or is not currently adjudged mentally incompetent;
(6) Has physically resided in and is a resident of the county where the application is being made for at least thirty days immediately preceding the date of the application;
(7) Has had no violations of chapter 23-7, 22-14, or 22-42 constituting a felony or misdemeanor in the five years preceding the date of application or is not currently charged under indictment or information for such an offense;
(8) Is a citizen of the United States; and
(9) Is not a fugitive from justice.
A person denied a permit may appeal to the circuit court pursuant to chapter 1-26.

Davek1977
January 7, 2011, 02:58 AM
Thank you NavyLt for providing the relavent statutes! Yes, as an 18 yr old, I applied for, and recieved, a carry permit from my county sheriff. This can be done, legally, in SD, as proven by the posted applicable laws.

washambala
January 7, 2011, 11:06 PM
I read SD as Self Defense. I have spent too much time on here. It also looks like that statute applies to a temporary license. Does that mean it lasts a few years or something shorter?

NavyLCDR
January 8, 2011, 12:33 AM
I read SD as Self Defense. I have spent too much time on here. It also looks like that statute applies to a temporary license. Does that mean it lasts a few years or something shorter?

It's like a paper copy of a driver's license until the real license arrives:

http://www.sdsos.gov/adminservices/concealedpistolpermits.shtm

A permit is valid for four years, and the fee is $10.00 (SDCL 23-7-8.2).

The applicant must complete a form called an Application for a Temporary Permit to Carry a Concealed Pistol. The information required for the permit includes (SDCL 23-7-8): the applicant's complete name, address, occupation, place and date of birth, physical description, a statement that the applicant has never pled guilty to, nolo contendere to, or been convicted of a felony or crime of violence, a sworn statement that the information on the application is true and correct, and the applicant's signature.

The sheriff will issue a temporary permit within five days from the date of application (SDCL 23-7-7.1).

Within seven days after the temporary permit has been issued, the sheriff sends a copy of the application to the secretary of state who issues the official permit (SDCL 23-7-8).

PavePusher
January 8, 2011, 12:38 AM
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