Accurizing a Mosin-Nagant


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Zeke Menuar
December 28, 2003, 01:28 PM
Has anyone tried to properly bed the action of a Mosin-Nagant? or any milsurp for that matter. Did it help accuracy?
I have an M38. It looks like the stock was reworked into a M44 and back into a M38. There are marks where a bayonet cutout from a M44 was inserted into a M38 stock. The fit in some places could be better. I am thinking that when I refinish the stock I might go ahead and properly bed the action.


ZM

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Jim K
December 30, 2003, 11:29 AM
I guess the M-N could be accurized like any other rifle, but IMHO, it would be like dropping a Ferrari engine into a Yugo. The rest of the rifle would still be M-N with its awful bolt, poor trigger pull, and split bridge.

Maybe a good way to practice working with bedding, but I am not sure I see any other advantage.

Jim

Clark
December 30, 2003, 10:32 PM
I went for years of reading about 1" groups at 100 yards on the internet, and only saw it happen twice while I was at the range:
1) A Model 70 stainless varminterer with laminated barrel, shooting Federal Gold .223 at Issaquah range
2) A 91/30 in Puyallup with an old Fajen [back when they used to make them] aftermarket stock that was glass bedded. The barrel had been shortened and inch and recrowned. The scope mount was an original design made by the owner at work on a milling machine. The scope was an old dim 18X Redfield. The load was 180 gr Sierra .311" SP with 52 gr. IMR4350. The bore had been hand lapped with a bored out case as a cleaning rod guide, lead cast in the bore, and valve grinding compound to take out the tight spot. Outers Foul out had been used to get out the copper and then the rust. The bore looked like the worst bore I have ever seen anyone actually shoot.

Then after trying for years, I got 2 rilfes [VZ24 and Ruger #1] in the last year that get 1" groups, and I have seen it done with a couple other rifles too.

The best I have ever done in years past with a 91/30 is a 1.4" 3 shot group at 100m.
Now that I know what I know, I think I can make one of my 91/30s get 1" groups: Glass bed, no expander ball, sliding sleeve seater, 40X scope, experiment with seating, etc.

M2HMGHB
December 31, 2003, 07:37 PM
mosin nagants come with bad triggers but all it takes is a little polish. I've done this on my M39 and she is down to about 4-5 pounds, its a little spongy from the spring but breaks like glass.

theCZ
January 2, 2004, 08:30 PM
I say GFI (Go for it!). Honestly, what do you have to lose? A brownells Acra-Glass kit is something like $17 bucks or so. The one I got had more than enough epoxy stuff to do a few rifles, and after I read the instructions a few times it was pretty easy to do.

Zeke Menuar
January 2, 2004, 10:59 PM
Going to have my Grandfather help me with the refinishing project. He is pretty good with wood. Far better than I am. Managed to locate an original M44(not a arsenal refinish!) with matching numbers and a pristine bore to fill in as a bumming around rifle.
I am dubious about whether or not bedding the action will actually improve accuracy in the M38. I would think that the handguards might throw accuracy off especially at longer ranges. I am wondering if I should run the 'glas all the way out to the end of the stock or just bed the section that holds the reciever. And then how to deal with the handguard.
I think that several treatments with JB's and some precision handloads would most likely have a more positive effect on accuracy then bedding.

After the M44 shows up then I'll start in on the M38. I think the M38 will look much better with a period correct oil finish. I don't like the varnish at all.

ZM

Badger Arms
January 3, 2004, 04:57 AM
I'd glass the entire length. You almosr have to as there isn't enough beef in the stock to keep it from warping and touching the barrel therefore free-floating is out.

Dave Markowitz
January 7, 2004, 04:51 AM
I think the M38 will look much better with a period correct oil finish. I don't like the varnish at all.

Varnish is a correct finish on Mosins. Many, if not most Mosin stocks were oiled then varnished by the Soviets.

Clark
April 8, 2004, 10:49 PM
I am now up to 4 riffles that have shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100 meters.
The best my Mosin Nagants have shot is:
1) 1942 91/30 that has done 1.4" 3 shot groups
2) 1944 VKT M39, 1.2" 5 shot group at 100m

Both had scope mounts and a 40X scope, but neither were glass bedded.

Now I have figured out how to glass bed the 91/30 to do better next time at the range:
1) Drill out the two action screw holes in the wood with a 23/64" drill.
2) Tap the holes in the stock with 7/16" tap.
3) Relieve the stock until the action and bottom metal are free to move above and below their optimum position.
4) Assemble the action and bottom metal on the stock and screw in the action screws until the action and bottom metal are correctly positioned. Remove the screws while counting the number of turns.
5) Reassemble the action and bottom metal without the stock and install the screws with the counted number of turns.
6) Measure the distance between the bottom metal and action next to both screws. Write down those measurements, Mine were .785" in front and 1.545" in the rear.
7) Cut lengths of 3/8" outside diameter brass or steel tubing per measurements and true the ends with a lathe, then removing the inner and outer burrs.
8) Score the outside of the tubing ala Wagner
http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/turk/turkbed1.html
9) Place the screws in their first holes and on the other side put a layer of duck tape ala Wagner
http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/turk/turkbed2.html
10) Coat the outside of the tubes with Devcon Steel Putty from Brownell's
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5808
11) Assemble the rifle with action screws at 2 inch pounds torque and push up or down on the action and bottom metal until it is in the right position.
12) Let the glass set.
13) Put the rifle in the freezer, even if it is not stuck, so that it separates nicely when cold.
14) Put glass under the recoil lug and tang per this picture:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=926374

The tape under the sear is part of my new low tek 91/30 trigger job.
I had a problem with the expoxy sticking to the crude machining of the barrel and reciever. I turned the first inch of the barrel in the lathe and sanded off the roughness. I did not get any expoxy on the rough sides of the receiver this time.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

Clark
May 11, 2005, 11:07 PM
I TIG welded an AK scope mount on a 91/30 reciever

cracked butt
May 15, 2005, 05:41 AM
I've had luck with just shimming the action up by fitting a layer or two of thin cardboard cut from business cards under the rear tang and in front of the recoil lug. This effectively freefloats the barrel by raising it off the stock by a hair , but not enough to contact that handguard.

Its not permanent, its practically free to do, and if done right and the stock isn't warped or defective, will shrink your groups. This also works with just about any bolt action rifle. ;)

SuicideKing
May 15, 2005, 02:41 PM
Clarks Pic descirbes the best quick fixes for Mosin accurizing.

Along with a polish job.... shimming the spring is a great way to reduce trigger pull lbs.

I guess if you wanted to go really cheap with a "Float", you could do like some of the Finn mosins and use a piece of sheet metal ground to shape and then a hole drilled.

the welded scope mount is facsinating.... I once modified an AK scope mount to fit a Mosin, I utilized the existing mount holes on an ex-sniper 91/30.

Pic attached (hopefully)

dfaugh
May 19, 2005, 07:55 AM
is re-crown the barrel...Every milsurp I've owned, even if the rfling was very good, had at least some cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. A simple re-crown had amazing results in the accuracy department.

After that, the other suggestions he apply....I've also sporterized a few, and found that fill length bedding didn't help much(and in one case hurt the accuracy), if at all, but bedding around the recoil lug and rear action screw helped immensely.

Clark
May 25, 2005, 01:25 AM
I have moved a barrel back two thread lengths and cut the chamber deeper. I plan on putting a Lothar Walther barrel on a Mosin Nagant.
That is the only way I got Mausers to be really accurate, and so I will try it with MNs.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=24143

Zeke Menuar
May 25, 2005, 06:09 AM
This thread has legs. I made the original thread a year and a half ago.

I solved the problem. I kept buying Mosin's (five of them up to now) until I found a super-accurate one. '43 Tula ex-sniper. Hits the clay pigeon every time at 150 yards. My eyesight fails me at longer ranges.
Now to get a genuine I/O fake sniper and I'll be set.

ZM

Cosmoline
May 25, 2005, 06:29 AM
There are some interesting ideas here, but you know what the quickest way to accurize a Mosin-Nagant is? Just get the ones with [SA] on the side and a joint halfway down the stock :D

The Finns reworked Russian receivers and rifles, and even took the time to accurize battlefield captures. If you open them up, you will frequently find copper shims used to bed the receiver. They also improved the sights and re-sighted in the rifles--properly this time. The Finnish birchwood stocks, recognizable by their two-piece construction, are also a cut above the Ruskies and were both stronger and harder. The receiver/stock fit is either excellent or made that way through the use of shims. The barrels themselves were custom made, and are far superior to Russian barrels. The triggers are also improved.

Nothing against improving your own Ruskie, I've done it myself. But Finland was like one massive custom shop for Mosin-Nagants, where some of the best rifle makers in the world did everything they could to squeeze as much potential as possible from the archaic Mosin.

Clark
May 25, 2005, 10:19 AM
I have an M39 Finnish hex receiver VKT I paid $90 from a table at a gun show, barreled in 1944.

I made a scope mount for it by milling out a Tapco AR15 riser, relived the stock for the bent bolt, and that is about it.
The trigger is still terrible, with 40x Leupold test scope:
180 gr. Sierra .311" spire, 47 gr. IMR4895 bulk, new Lapua brass, CCI200, 3.365" with Sinclair bullet comparitor, make a rifling mark about .030" long at the ogive:

1) 3 shot group at 100m at .4", opened up to 1.2" when I shot twice more after waiting for the barrel to cool.

I should take that M39 to the range again.

mutt762x54
May 31, 2008, 12:01 AM
my wifes '46 tula M44, and my tula Finn Sako rifle. I found these triggers a heck of an improvement.
http://www.huberconcepts.com/
the M44 has a scout scope on it, military wood, a cheek piece & a recoil pad stock. Turned down sniper bolt.
i just put a new scope on the M39, the old one (50 plus) just didnt cut it any more. gotta make another cheek piece.
I load for it, & I think ill be making sure the bbl is floating, and probably glass bed the reciever anyway. my old man showed me that business card trick, think Ill try that next. no shims anywhere when i took it apart, it had very low mileage.
I googled bedding, moison nagant, & found this old thread.
Any progress on The Question since last written here?

Cosmoline
May 31, 2008, 12:40 AM
Are we doing some kind of night of the living dead around here? What's with all the zombie threads?

Anyway, as usual I find myself agreeing with myself. The huber triggers are nice, I've got one myself. There are other steps you can take. Checking your receiver screws is one. They should be hand tight. A lot of them are very loose which will throw accuracy all to heck.

Also, in the past few years I've been getting more interested in barrel harmonics. With the long, thin barrels of some Mosins you actually benefit from having impingement near the end of the barrel. I've noticed on M91's you can alter POI and accuracy by loosening or tightening the bands, and thus forcing the stock harder against the end of the barrel.

And of course ammo is a huge factor, esp. given the wide array of 54R loads out there. Some like heavy, some light. Some prefer a certain nation's surplus but not another's. You just have to experiment.

telecaster1981
May 31, 2008, 01:06 AM
I guess the M-N could be accurized like any other rifle, but IMHO, it would be like dropping a Ferrari engine into a Yugo. The rest of the rifle would still be M-N with its awful bolt, poor trigger pull, and split bridge.

Perhaps...but a Yugo with a Ferrari engine will make more jaws drop when you drop the hammer at the stop light! Shock value is worth something.

Yeah, you can make some great improvements to the MN. I've worked on my ex-sniper a lot over the years since I got it. In fact, I've tickled it to death and it's permanently glued into the stock. :( Groups are tighter though! Guess I won't worry about it till I need to take it apart for some reason!

dirtyjim
May 31, 2008, 06:24 PM
i'm building a mosin based target rifle just because i like to have different guns than everyone else.
so far all i've done is filled in the gap in the rear bridge & moved the bolt handle to the back of the bolt like a normal bolt action rifle. i still have to get the barrel threaded & chambered. it will be chambered in a rimmed version of the 6.5x55Ai. i'll swedge rims onto 6.5x55 cases then cut them to the same size as the rim on a 7.62x54r. that way i can use standard reamers, headspace gauges, reloading dies & it will feed. the receiver will get a few more mods before its sent off to be re-carburized. the rear action screw hole will be welded up & recut at straight instead of at an angle like it is now, the bottom of the rear tang will also be recut square. the back of the triggerguard will have to be reworked to mate up with the new action screw. a few people have also adapted bold triggers for a 98 mauser & timney triggers for a sako L579 to work with a mosin but they used the sear as a bolt stop. i may have figured out a way around using the sear as the bolt stop.

Cosmoline
May 31, 2008, 06:32 PM
all i've done is filled in the gap in the rear bridge & moved the bolt handle to the back of the bolt like a normal bolt action rifle.

I have to ask, if you want a normal bolt action rifle why don't you just get one? You can get a Mauser 98 pattern action in the white and have it barreled in whatever you want for a lot less fuss.

Geno
May 31, 2008, 07:10 PM
I buy Mil Surps to keep 100% stock, zero modifications. I like my Mosins the way they came out. After I dry-fire my Mosins, my Remington 700 SPS varminter 3 Lbs trigger feels like a 1 oz trigger. :)

dirtyjim
May 31, 2008, 10:11 PM
I have to ask, if you want a normal bolt action rifle why don't you just get one? You can get a Mauser 98 pattern action in the white and have it barreled in whatever you want for a lot less fuss.
i didn't want a normal bolt action rifle, i wanted a target rifle based on a mosin nagant. i have over 30 normal bolt action rifles, i like to tinker & i like to have something different than what everyone else has.
i have about 5 or 6 mauser actions & another 10 or so project guns in various stages of completion. i could do alot of things normal & it would be alot less fuss but normal is also boring

jordan1948
September 13, 2008, 12:45 AM
Hey I'm new to THR but I've got a Mossin Nagant M44 that I am currently sporterizing although for now I'm only doing what I can without buy anything (saving for M1A at gunshow this upcoming Oct) which basically is just removing the sights, some say it takes hours but I took a 6" angle grinder and just went back and forth long ways on the front sight on 2 sides untill I was sure it was close to the barrel then tipped it up taped the bayonet lug with a hammer and it came off, rear sight was almost the same but I ground it in 3 places, also the pin in the rear sight that holds it on wouldn't come out even with heat so I just took a drillbit slightly smaller and me drill and drilled to one side the tried the nail punch again and it came right out. Sorry for the long thread I just have alot to say lol

krs
September 14, 2008, 08:38 PM
You want to bed the action tightly into the wood - it must not be able to move at all.

You want to let the barrel free as much as possible by relieving the interior of the handguard pieces so they don't contact the barrel and shorten each piece slightly so that it can move even while held on the rifle by the various clips and bands that may do that. The trick with a military rifle that keeps it's stock is to minimize the tensions placed on the barrel at every point. Best is no contact but failing that you have to see that nothing places the barrel under any tension so that it and whatever necessary attachments to it can move.

I'm not sure that Mosins can shoot but any rifle can be improved.

5 shot groups under 1" at 100 yds? Nothing to it! :)

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/guns/today10mphgusts.jpg

Autopistola
November 30, 2008, 06:39 PM
Mine was a good shooter out of the pawn shop, but you wouldn't know it with the heavy, gritty trigger pull. I looked around the net for trigger mods and settled on a non-permanent one: make shims that fit on the bolt that connects the sear to the reciever. first I modified a washer, then made more shims out an aluminum soda can. In total, it took a washer and six aluminum shims until I was satisfied with the trigger pull and its safety. YMMV, so take it one step at a time.

Also, I noticed before the trigger shimming that the bolt would actually tweak in the reciever while pulling the trigger, and it was very hard to open/close the bolt handle up and down. That all changed after the shim job!

I lucked out with a '39 Tula ex-sniper. The crown is OK, the bore pitted and rusty, and the handguards clamp down hard on the barrel. Still shoots 1.5MOA with Simmons scope.

abouyet
September 8, 2010, 07:35 AM
I was thinking about bedding my mosin all the way down the barrel groove in the stock to make it uniform with no pressure points but solid instead. I know free floating is the way to go but what do you think?

Shadow 7D
September 8, 2010, 06:41 PM
good article on corking at www.boxotruth.com
Surplusrifle has some good article and in the message board you can find the original Finnish modifications or is it Russian modifications to the trigger, basically the spring/sear is bent and thinned along with polishing, the contact point is reshaped from a slope to a more solid square, those who have done the mods per the blueprint have reported consistent almost match triggers about 3-4 break.

Joshua M. Smith
September 7, 2012, 10:45 PM
This is an old thread.

Can we revisit it? We've come a ways since it was posted, and I think it would be fun to see where we Mosin freaks were then, and where we are now.

For my part, I'd never heard of a Mosin! I'd just come back from college in Vincennes IN and owned a pistol and a shotgun, the rest of the collection I owned as a teenager (including a Winchester 9422 Magnum!) were sold to pay for college.

I'd yet to purchase my first centerfire rifle as Indiana only allowed shotguns for deer at the time.

Sometime during the duration of this thread I walked into a gunshop and saw a Russian rifle called an "M44" (whatever that was!) for $150. I bought it to find out if I'd end up enjoying centerfire rifles!

Josh

stytos
November 15, 2012, 12:10 PM
Perhaps way too excessive, but I'm doing an entire Mosin Nagant project. It's a 1934 91/30. I ordered a heavy, threaded, bull barrel from McGowan barrels, ordered a Timney trigger, a Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24x50mm scope, a Troy Medieval muzzle break in .308, and a stock from Richard's Microfit. The barreled action isn't back from McGowan yet, should be here by the end of Nov, beginning of Dec (it's Nov 15th now). This morning, I ordered some Devcon Plastic Steel.

My idea going into this Mosin was to make a Mosin that can hit accurately at a 100 yards and beyond. Yes, I might screw this up; and I'll be upset/annoyed if I do. But if I can do it as I believe I can, then I'll have a Russian .308 that hits accurately for 1/2 the cost of the .308.

danweasel
November 15, 2012, 02:23 PM
Well, I bedded mine with JB weld and did all the other "no-cost" mods (trigger shim and polish, corked the barrel, cleaned up the hand guard channel, shimmed the action screws, and refinished the stock). Why did I do all this? Because Mr. Smith up there ^^^ has my front sight and I was getting antsy, hahaha!

Joshua M. Smith
November 16, 2012, 03:29 AM
Dan, you're gonna like it! :D

Clark
November 18, 2012, 06:41 PM
Since 2003 [when this thread began] I have changed what I do to Mosin Nagants.
I have concluded that for me:
1) Timney trigger is the best, adjust low and adds a good safety.
2) Bending the sear is the next best.
3) Shimming under the sear is inferior to bending the sear
4) The Hubber trigger is a waste of money and time.
5) Reducing the firing spring force is a waste of time.
6) Polishing the trigger where it touches the sear is a waste of time.
7) Polishing the sear where it touches the trigger is a waste of time.
8) Polishing the sear where it touches the cocking piece is a waste of time.
9) Polishing the cocking piece where it touches the sear is a waste of time.
10) I still pillar bed with 3/8" tubing by I use 1010 steel and not brass now.
11) I no longer mill and weld scope mounts together. I have concluded that the ATI mount with a third hole is good enough for anything.
12) The MN extractor relief cut and capricious receiver clocking is so much trouble that I will rebarrel more Mausers and Rem700 type rifles for myself than Mosins.
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/HookeslawMosinNagant8-19-2011.jpg
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/Timneywithallenwrenchesandinstructions8-15-2011.jpg
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/MosinNagantdrawingrelievestockforpillarsandTimneytriggerandrelievepillarfortrigger8-2-2011-1.jpg
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/extrahole.jpg

I have made some youtube videos on Mosin Nagant gunsmithing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPn8IdNJ_SE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEyS9Q_u10I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOjYro4w0Bc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmvBGYFUK4

carbine85
November 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
I added a few comments below in red
Since 2003 [when this thread began] I have changed what I do to Mosin Nagants.
I have concluded that for me:
1) Timney trigger is the best, adjust low and adds a good safety.
2) Bending the sear is the next best.
3) Shimming under the sear is inferior to bending the sear. It can be helpful if you don't want to take a chance of over bending the spring. I use the shim to tweak it.
4) The Hubber trigger is a waste of money and time.
5) Reducing the firing spring force is a waste of time.
6) Polishing the trigger where it touches the sear is a waste of time. Can't hurt and takes 5 minutes
7) Polishing the sear where it touches the trigger is a waste of time. Can't hurt
8) Polishing the sear where it touches the cocking piece is a waste of time.This can help make for a cleaner break.
9) Polishing the cocking piece where it touches the sear is a waste of time.Doing this makes for a nice clean break of the trigger
10) I still pillar bed with 3/8" tubing by I use 1010 steel and not brass now.
11) I no longer mill and weld scope mounts together. I have concluded that the ATI mount with a third hole is good enough for anything.
12) The MN extractor relief cut and capricious receiver clocking is so much trouble that I will rebarrel more Mausers and Rem700 type rifles for myself than Mosi
Using the old Russian method of changing some angles, polishing, and cleaning up the surfaces can be very helpful and save the expense of buying a new trigger group. I have done this on several rifles with very favorable results.

Clark
November 28, 2012, 11:32 PM
When I say, "waste of time" I mean no measurable improvement as measuring trigger force, measured with a force gauge as shown in my above video.

When we want to get from an 8 pound trigger down to a 3 pound trigger and we try something on many parts from many guns and there is not an ounce of change, it is a waste of time.


When I shimmed under the sear and posted about it 9 years ago, that was my first Mosin Nagant. I have sporterized many of them now and threw a bunch of engineering hours at measuring the effectiveness of trigger mods.

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