50 Beowulf


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lobo9er
January 5, 2011, 07:31 PM
Does anybody know if it is possable to convert to .50 Beowulf by simply swaping the bolt head, barrel, and mag
Are the feed ramps different to accomidate the larger round?
Would it eject without the larger ejection port?

stole this question from another forum but i too am looking for answer and no one answered it there so maybe some one here can help.

or is is cost efficient to to start with a stripped 50 beowulf upper from satern for $125

or

is is just better to buy a upper for 7-800 bucks

anyone have experience with building a 50 beowulf?

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Craigman
January 5, 2011, 11:43 PM
the lower is just a lower. not beowolf designated. Cheaper to buy and upper and you wont have a box of parts laying around from the conversion. You will essentially have 2 rifles:D

Lloyd Smale
January 6, 2011, 07:46 AM
mine is a complete alexander arms upper on a superior lower with rock river guts. Works just fine.

lobo9er
January 6, 2011, 10:05 AM
OOps i meant upper from satern. Do I need a 50 beowulf upper?

lobo9er
January 6, 2011, 10:08 AM
I'm doubting i can but is possible to just swap barrels

Craigman
January 6, 2011, 10:18 AM
yes you need an upper.

remember though, the 450 bushmaster does the same thing and you can actually find ammo for it. The Beowolf is "cooler" though

Flintknapper
January 6, 2011, 11:11 AM
Ejection port must be enlarged.

Other than that, barrel, modified bolt face, and some tweaking of the mags...is all that is needed.

Yes, you can build your own upper for less money than you would spend to buy one....IF you have the proper tools (receiver jig, multi tool, etc) AND the knowhow.

For most folks...the best thing to do...would be to buy an assembled upper.

HorseSoldier
January 6, 2011, 08:59 PM
remember though, the 450 bushmaster does the same thing and you can actually find ammo for it. The Beowolf is "cooler" though

And 458 Socom. (And 499 LW, but I think that one is defunct at this point.)

lobo9er
January 6, 2011, 10:09 PM
i thought about both the 450 bushmaster and the 458, but i think its the beowulf that will ride out the storm of big bore ar's. Its anyones guess really. i have read that the 450 thumper is the least powerful of the 3 but considering its in a pistol format it may not matter a whole lot. all three are new to me, and all 3 are very cool, but i think the beowulf is my cup of tea (as of now).

1stmarine
January 6, 2011, 10:48 PM
Hi,
The entire upper configuration goes with Alexander. It is an awesome round but prepare your wallet, specially on the brass/bullet side. Brass hard to find too. 3rd party I think you can use a DPMS upper billet (The ones w/o the dust cover) but I might be wrong. I don't know who else cuts the barrel other than alexander. The bushmaster is easy. The entire upper is affordable. The socom is also hard to feed, expensive and I don't think it will last but time only will tell.

The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb

You can verify this in the energy charts. Even in wikipedia I think. There is not a huge difference in the .50 and .45 calibers for the purpose.
The bushmaster will also go through briks, bolcks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path. It will take down a grisly bear as easy as the Beowulf. Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.
All great rounds. I went with the 450 bushmaster. Hornady has plenty of brass and loads and they are extremely accurate, reliable and the least expensive.
But hey, that's me.

If you like the Alexander go for it, it looks awesome. I just wanted you to consider the same things I did. Remember sometimes less, is more.

Cheers,
E.

HorseSoldier
January 7, 2011, 01:31 AM
i thought about both the 450 bushmaster and the 458, but i think its the beowulf that will ride out the storm of big bore ar's.

Alexander Arms is its own worst enemy when it comes to financial success. I wouldn't put money on Beowulf being the big winner in this category.

The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb

This isn't accurate. Ft-lbs for various Beowulf and SOCOM loadings are pretty much covering the same ground. 450 Bushmaster seems to mostly clock in around the middle of what the other two will do, but seems to have much less load options.

The bushmaster will also go through briks, bolcks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path. It will take down a grisly bear as easy as the Beowulf. Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.

450 Bushmaster can't actually even come close to hot 45-70 loads. Think of it more like an anemic 45-70 that will run in a semi-auto.

1stmarine
January 7, 2011, 01:59 AM
Negative,
Check the facts and come back. ...
I have to go to bed so I cannot scan the articles, incling Alexander arms own info but I can send you some links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Beowulf
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/45852-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65231-5.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM

Also the Hornady standard bullet as a very good BC for what it is. Again nothing wrong with the others I am just trying to explain what I did and why.
After all I might get a Beowolf too.... But defenetly the bushmaster will make you smile.

Cheers,
E.

Roughneck08
January 7, 2011, 02:27 AM
Lol they WILL not come close to a 45/70. As Horsesoldier said, think of it as an anemic 45/70 that will operate in a semi-auto. Once you actually fire a full powered 500 grain 45/70 you will understand. I would much rather have a 45/70 for shooting a grizz.

Girodin
January 7, 2011, 02:28 AM
The bushmaster will also go through briks, bolcks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path. It will take down a grisly bear as easy as the Beowulf. Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.

Are you confusing the 450 bushmaster with the 450 marlin? Are you looking at numbers for old trap door 45/70s?

I see a fair number of loads in 45/70 that exceed the max loads I've seen for a bushmaster.

The loads I've seen making 2800 ft/lbs in the bushmaster are hot loads pushing 240 grain bullets at 2300 FPS. A 45/70 can easily take a 300 grain bullet to that speed and make over 3400 ft lbs. I should pull out my books but I imagine loads for a ruger #1 are doing more than that. Please explain further your statement that a 450 bushamster is a 45/70 on steroids. Perhaps I need a further educations, big bores are not my forte by any means.

What loads exist for a 450 bushmaster that cannot be met or exceeded with a modern 45/70?

Further energy numbers are not telling the whole story. Not the whole story on how each performs and not the whole story of why one might choose one of these three over the others.

Alexander Arms is its own worst enemy when it comes to financial success. I wouldn't put money on Beowulf being the big winner in this category.


My thoughts exactly. I wanted a Beowulf for a long time but I now desire a 458 SOCOM. I still haven't gotten either because I have no real use for it other than just owning it so it keeps getting backburnered for other toys.

rogertc1
January 7, 2011, 06:40 AM
You wold have to make the ejection port larger. I however bought a Beowulf upper 4 years ago. No regrets.

redneck2
January 7, 2011, 07:21 AM
I was looking for something for Indiana deer hunting (funny regulations, don't ask). I ended up with a .458 SOCOM. IIRC, the .450 Bushmaster uses pistol bullets (.452). The .458 SOCOM uses rifle bullets (.458). Pistol bullets won't hold together well at rifle velocity.

As for the swap, as noted you'll have to have an upper with the larger port to get the bigger brass out. I suspect by the time you buy all the parts and try to get them to work, it would be just as cost effective to get a complete upper. This is the same process that I went through, and that's what I ended up doing.

If you don't reload, you'll want to start (if you're actually going to shoot it). Just filling the mag one time with factory ammo costs over $30...:what:

Cracks me up that the gamer guys here have all the answers on performance but have never pulled the trigger on one. If you could see what it did to a deer we shot this fall, it would answer your questions. I've probably taken over 50 deer with bow, muzzle loaders, and shotguns. Never saw one hit as hard as this one.

Mine is a RRA upper on a Bushmaster lower. Snapped together in a few seconds. Took a while to work up loads, but I have it shooting about 1 1/2" groups now.

There's a local shop that has a complete used RRA in .458 SOCOM for $895 IIRC.

lobo9er
January 7, 2011, 09:42 AM
I didnt go through those charts yet but i am pretty sure the 450 is on the bottom of the power chart of those 3. I'm not saying its weak, thats a list of 3 heavy hitting rounds. I thought the 458 is more in line with the 45/70. Again I dont own or have shot or handled any of them.

Flintknapper
January 7, 2011, 11:17 AM
I went with the SOCOM after exhaustive research on the 3 offerings mentioned.

I have to say...that some of what has been posted...is not only inaccurate, but laughable.

Any of the three would make a good big-bore option. Each has certain strengths that might make it more desirable, depending upon your purpose for it.

In the end, the SOCOM made the most sense for ME. It will be here for a long time, you needn't worry about that.

The new forum is back up and being repopulated...if anyone has questions about the cartridge:

http://458socomforums.com/


Flint.

Girodin
January 7, 2011, 03:22 PM
I have to say...that some of what has been posted...is not only inaccurate, but laughable.

Instead of just calling it laughable (which it might well be) it would benefit everyone more to point out which statements are inaccurate and even more helpful still to provide the correct info.

redneck2
January 7, 2011, 07:53 PM
Instead of just calling it laughable (which it might well be) it would benefit everyone more to point out which statements are inaccurate and even more helpful still to provide the correct infoHaving been a member here since day one, I'd STRONGLY advise against that in most situations.

While it's tempting to point to the shortcomings of the statements that some individuals make, it invariably leads to thread wars. If it can be done in a positive manner WITH FACTS, it may be acceptable. If not, the moderators will get involved and that's not a good thing.

There are subtle ways keep the train on the tracks. Anything that could be considered a personal attack brings out the ban hammer in a hurry.

Just trying to keep everything High Road.

HTH

Girodin
January 7, 2011, 09:04 PM
While it's tempting to point to the shortcomings of the statements that some individuals make, it invariably leads to thread wars. If it can be done in a positive manner WITH FACTS, it may be acceptable. If not, the moderators will get involved and that's not a good thing.


If someone says something that is demonstrably false you do not think it is a good idea to refute it as false and provide the correct information, perhaps with citation? Seriously?

That is the essence of meaningful discussion and advancement of truth. It is also less offense than simply stating that something is laughably wrong and leaving it at that.

Now I have not been a member here since day one, but I have read the forum rules and refer you to the following (it can be found be clicking on the rules link at the top of the page):

You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

What I asked for is fully within both the rules and common courtesy. It is also arguably more inline with not only the letter of the forum rules but certainly their spirit than a bald statement that something that someone wrote is laughably wrong.

In sum. asking for clarification of what makes a statement incorrect and facts that are pertinent to a topic appropriate for this forum is fine and entirely "highroad".

I did not call for a personal attack. I asked what info was in correct and that the correct info be provided, as opposed to asking anything relating to any poster personally. You either seriously misunderstood my request or misunderstand the essence of personal attack.

redneck2
January 7, 2011, 09:13 PM
If it can be done in a positive manner WITH FACTS, it may be acceptableYou must have missed this.

What is "false" many times is a personal opinion. I've seen this road traveled many times over the years. Many of those guys have been banned (permanently) because of it.

Girodin
January 7, 2011, 09:19 PM
No I read that and was merely pointing out that it was exactly what was asked for. Off topic discussion is a violation of the rules and does lead to threads being locked so lets get back to the topic at hand. If an actual moderator has issue with my statement they can can contact me, post here, edit the thread etc. Thanks.

lobo9er
January 7, 2011, 09:52 PM
Actually redneck2 as the OP I am curious of the false statements too. :) Not in an angry way just for my situation in possible purchase in the future. So far this thread has been going pretty good I am benefiting in the info. These are very interesting caliber choices all with mostly more pros than cons. so keep the info rolling.

1stmarine
January 7, 2011, 10:08 PM
They all are very good uppers. More energy on the Alexander doesn't mean better nor doesn't mean worse. There are other things like Accuracy, weight, cost, etc... that folks might consider depending on their intended use, priorities and likes/dislikes. They all are pretty accurate and good choices. The socom is an awesome round too.
What I published are the energy ranking based on DATA PUBLISHED FROM THE MANUFACTURERSs from "factory loads" and factual data NOT MY OPINION.

When I compare with the 45/70 I compare with the average factory load of the standard load. Same load the cavalry used so they could keep the rider on the horse when firing. Of course if you want to pump it up to the 300 strong you can. So any other load can be pumped up. Just be careful.

I don't have my speed spreads in a spreadsheet but this fellow firearms enthusiast already took the time to document so initial laods with RCBs ballistic chart and everything.....

http://shanedaughtry.com/450bushmaster.aspx

I am pretty sure you will find great information on all the others as well including the manufacturer websites.

I find the 450 bushmaster a good upper for me and I am considering to have a Beowulf or a Socom at some point just for fun. What it works for me might not work for others based on intended use or preference but I suggest to consider and analyze data from several reliable sources before any decisions.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
January 7, 2011, 10:23 PM
I am sorry if I confused everyone with my statement about the venerable 45/70.
I was referring to the 45/70 standard that are most loads you can find in the shelves these days. Just look at the spreads that I sent in the latest link.
I would also want the 45/70 400gr in strong version on a marlin if confronted with a grizzly. I am pretty sure the Beowolf or the others could take care of it as well but lets say whatever system, at close range, I rather to be inside an armored vehicle. lol! I think why native americans call the Grizzly hard to kill and that's for a reason. Read about it in the expedition of Lewis and Clark. So funny they thought they were missing with their rifles when in fact they had 27 bullets on the animal through the lungs, neck and hearth and still was charging.
Also I would much rather opt to be at 400 yards with my .338 lapua just in case. lol!

Sorry for the diversion, and anyhow I am sorry if I created any confusion. I just wanted to show some links with some facts.

Also if you just want raw power build an upper for this round but make sure the billet is reinforced steel and talk to the trauma surgeon first to be on call.....

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/30%20cal%20bullets/bigbullet.jpg

:D

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
January 7, 2011, 10:38 PM
REdneck2,
To your statement the .450 Bushmaster uses pistol bullets (.452). I think that you have some nice rifle bullets same used in lever action rifles. They shoot pretty flat in both the bushmaster and have a similar one for the socom....
http://www.hornady.com/store/.452-45-CAL-c-1073/
This is the one for the socom, I would give it a try....
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.458-325-gr-FTX/

Cheers,
E.

Flintknapper
January 8, 2011, 12:38 AM
1stmarine wrote:

I just wanted to show some links with some facts
Well...I don't contest that what you linked and cut/pasted was done verbatim, but that doesn't make it "fact" in light of several variables.

For instance, you posted the following:

The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb

Here it seems you to seek to show the BEO as the most powerful of the three, with the Bushy second and the SOCOM third.

Problem is: You snatched the figure for the 400 gr. load in the BEO, using a 24" barrel and compared to two completely different loads in the other two offerings.

Here are the actual figures from the links you provided:

Beo:
300 gr Speer Gold Dot 1,870 ft/s @ 2,330 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 24”)

SOCOM:
300 gr 1,900 ft/s @ 2,405 ft•lbf (Barrel length unknown)
250 gr 2,000 ft/s) @ 2,167 ft•lbf

Bushy:
250 gr SST 2,214 ft/s @ 2,722 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 20”) Note: Not 2,800 ft.lbf

When we compare "apples to apples" as in the 300 gr. load for the BEO and the 300 gr. for the SOCOM, the SOCOM slightly bests it.

When the SOCOM 250 gr. is compared to the 250 in the Bushy, the 450 comes out ahead. I would like to point out however, that the test barrel for the Bushy was 20" and the BEO a whopping 24". The barrel length for the SOCOM is not known, but virtually EVERY bit of load data Marty (Teppo Jutsu) has sent me, has been for a 16" barrel.

So, there are variables here too. One other minor note...is that instead of rounding down 22 fps for the Bushy, you rounded UP 88 fps to arrive at 2,800 ft.lb

-----------------------------------------------------

Some of the following is subjective, I understand that...and allow for some "license" to allow for hyperbole. Just the same...I have a few objections. I wouldn't normally post them, but I've literally been asked to.

The socom is also hard to feed,
I'm guessing you mean it is expensive...or that ammo is not readily available, not sure really?

expensive and I don't think it will last but time only will tell.
I can only say that "expensive" must be offered up as relative to something else. For me...the expense is of no consequence...I chose the SOCOM for other reasons.

As for how long the cartridge will last, who knows. It has been around for quite some time now, RRA makes an upper for it and Marty (last time I checked) has a 6-12 month back-log. I'd have to say its doing O.K.

The bushmaster will also go through bricks, blocks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path.
If the Bushmaster will do this, then the BEO and SOCOM will do so in their sleep, since both offer a greater choice of bullets. Of course, none of the aforementioned will go through "anything in its path".

The Bushy guys (that reload) have found that they can take .458 caliber bullets and swage them down in order to have more choices. The SOCOM reloaders simply pick from the plethora of bullet choices right off the shelf. Anything from 100 grain pills (yes 100 gr.) to over 600 grs.

Anything from Tracers, to Solids, to Frangible's, to Tungsten cored, to Solid copper, to controlled expansion...and even a Barnes bullet made specifically for the cartridge (The Barnes 300 gr TTSX).

So, its hard to imagine the 450 being better in that respect.

It will take down a grizzly bear as easy as the Beowulf.
Well...I can't prove that one way or the other, but the smart money is going to go with the BEO.

Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.
NO. And thats all I will say about that, its been covered already.

Just a few commercially loaded offerings for the SOCOM:

http://www.sbrammunition.com/458sl.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#458 SOCOM ammo____-_1-2-4_8-16-32_1_16_Demand desc


For the hand loader, the door is wide open.

Now...let me conclude by saying that all three (Bushy, BEO, SOCOM) are fine big bores in their own right. Each has its place...and each is ideal (or nearly so) for different people... for different reasons.

Choose which suits you the best and be happy with it.

Flint.

lobo9er
January 8, 2011, 01:24 AM
Has anyone seen a 450 bushmaster pistol?

lobo9er
January 8, 2011, 01:36 AM
After checking out commercially avail ammo online just now all calibers are available but the socom is a lot higher in price. 450 avg $29 beo $30-45 and socom was $50-65 not that that means more than just that what comercial ammo cost.

lobo9er
January 8, 2011, 01:38 AM
One more thought, how does 450 bushmaster compare to a 44 mag? I will google.

Flintknapper
January 8, 2011, 01:45 AM
No question... that commercially loaded SOCOM ammo is the most expensive.

If there is an Achilles Heel to the SOCOM...it is the cost of ammo.

This ain't no "plinking" round. ;)


I reload for mine...in order to take advantage of the many bullet types available. A side benefit is greatly reduced cost. Brass (because the cartridge is low pressure) lasts a long time.

For those who have "Once Fired/used" brass, you can send it to SBR, specify how you want it loaded and significantly reduce the cost of your ammo.


Flint.

1stmarine
January 8, 2011, 02:52 AM
Flintknapper wrote"

Quote:
I just wanted to show some links with some facts
Well...I don't contest that what you linked and cut/pasted was done verbatim, but that doesn't make it "fact" in light of several variables.

No verbatim. I posted something I could find quickly before I went to bed. I will look for other articles the problem is they are on papers and magazines so I will have to find them in a big pile, scan them and send them. I hope everyone there can find some more details THERE that's what I meant with the facts not to be hard driven by any ranking anyone posts here. Encyclopedias and books as well as ammo and powder manufactures specs are good sources.

For instance, you posted the following:

Quote:
The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb

Here it seems you to seek to show the BEO as the most powerful of the three, with the Bushy second and the SOCOM third. Afirmative

Problem is: You snatched the figure for the 400 gr. load in the BEO, using a 24" barrel and compared to two completely different loads in the other two offerings.
Negative, I didn't "snatch" anything. I put the numbers from the top of my head and then sent the links for people to look for facts. I will send more. I think the BEO drove a PowerBelt 245 close to 2400fps using lil'gun but I am going to verify. I think that you can get to that data form there to other sources. I will look for it and I will post it. I was going to get the BEO at that time but some of the problems in the forums influenced my decision. This is probably fixed by now... http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?899-Strange-problem-reloading-.50-Beowulf


Here are the actual figures from the links you provided:

Beo:
300 gr Speer Gold Dot 1,870 ft/s @ 2,330 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 24”)

SOCOM:
300 gr 1,900 ft/s @ 2,405 ft•lbf (Barrel length unknown)
250 gr 2,000 ft/s) @ 2,167 ft•lbf

Bushy:
250 gr SST 2,214 ft/s @ 2,722 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 20”) Note: Not 2,800 ft.lbf

When we compare "apples to apples" as in the 300 gr. load for the BEO and the 300 gr. for the SOCOM, the SOCOM slightly bests it.

When the SOCOM 250 gr. is compared to the 250 in the Bushy, the 450 comes out ahead. I would like to point out however, that the test barrel for the Bushy was 20" and the BEO a whopping 24". The barrel length for the SOCOM is not known, but virtually EVERY bit of load data Marty (Teppo Jutsu) has sent me, has been for a 16" barrel.

So, there are variables here too. One other minor note...is that instead of rounding down 22 fps for the Bushy, you rounded UP 88 fps to arrive at 2,800 ft.lb
Negative. Actually I did round it but down not up. This one I know form mine spread is 2266 with Lil'gun that puts it well over 2,800 ft/lbs if I am not mistaken.



-----------------------------------------------------

Some of the following is subjective, I understand that...and allow for some "license" to allow for hyperbole. Just the same...I have a few objections. I wouldn't normally post them, but I've literally been asked to.

Quote:
The socom is also hard to feed,
'm guessing you mean it is expensive...or that ammo is not readily available, not sure really? Both, the brass and ammo was hard to find in any store and heard many reports of actual feeding problems single stack. This might be different lately, is it?

Quote:
expensive and I don't think it will last but time only will tell.
I can only say that "expensive" must be offered up as relative to something else. For me...the expense is of no consequence...I chose the SOCOM for other reasons.
OK. Good thinking. I do not disagree with good reasons.

As for how long the cartridge will last, who knows. It has been around for quite some time now, RRA makes an upper for it and Marty (last time I checked) has a 6-12 month back-log. I'd have to say its doing O.K.

I don't know those but it is good to know so thanks for sharing this.

Quote:
The bushmaster will also go through bricks, blocks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path.
If the Bushmaster will do this, then the BEO and SOCOM will do so in their sleep, since both offer a greater choice of bullets. Of course, none of the aforementioned will go through "anything in its path".

Surely they all make BIG holes, don't they?

The Bushy guys (that reload) have found that they can take .458 caliber bullets and swage them down in order to have more choices. The SOCOM reloaders simply pick from the plethora of bullet choices right off the shelf. Anything from 100 grain pills (yes 100 gr.) to over 600 grs.

I don't swag but a friend does and he is very happy. He also swags some 450 pistol bulk pack bullets that are great for practice and very inexpensive. I cannot tell you what brand but I can ask if anyone is interested.

Anything from Tracers, to Solids, to Frangible's, to Tungsten cored, to Solid copper, to controlled expansion...and even a Barnes bullet made specifically for the cartridge (The Barnes 300 gr TTSX).
Great choice. Those TTSX are extremely deadly. Any Triple shock is a good hunting choice.

So, its hard to imagine the 450 being better in that respect.
Affirmative, Nobody said that. It comes down to choices. I was able to shoot the three of them before I got the bushmaster. and I felt the bushmaster could do what I wanted FOR ME and I saw they always had the ammo in the shelve here at the gun shop so I went for it. I think that I will go next for the BEO. Great systems, all of them.

Quote:
It will take down a grizzly bear as easy as the Beowulf
.
Well...I can't prove that one way or the other, but the smart money is going to go with the BEO. .....I cannot tell you neither but I am going to a hunt in a couple of months. Not with the bushmaster though.

Quote:
Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.
NO. And thats all I will say about that, its been covered already.
Agree. The comparative with 45.70 standard is in another thread.

Just a few commercially loaded offerings for the SOCOM:

http://www.sbrammunition.com/458sl.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#458 SOCOM ammo____-_1-2-4_8-16-32_1_16_Demand desc

Do you know any sports stores that have these on stock or where to find the socom brass? At the time it was impossible but this might have changed.

For the hand loader, the door is wide open.

Now...let me conclude by saying that all three (Bushy, BEO, SOCOM) are fine big bores in their own right. Each has its place...and each is ideal (or nearly so) for different people... for different reasons. ........Agree 100%

Choose which suits you the best and be happy with it.

Agree. I recommend ideally and when possible connect with friends from your gun club ,shooting leagues, hunting parties, etc.. and see if anyone has a system same or similar the one you are looking for so you can give them a try with a few rounds. Offer to pay for the rounds and most people, specially friends will not have a problem. I do the same and offer a chance to friends and gun club members.

Good luck and Good night.

Flintknapper
January 8, 2011, 04:07 PM
1stmarine,

I am not going to rebutt your latest reply. Quoting all the varied posts has already resulted in a deviation from the original subject matter and I would not have taken the time to address the inaccuracies of certain posts, except "inquiring minds" just had to know.

The information on each cartridge and how they compare to one another is out there for the searching. So... unless someone posts something that is patently wrong, I am loathe to attempt to correct it.

Too, I am not always right myself, but I do try to FULLY research a subject before commenting.

Anyway, thank you...for your thoughts and participation.

Flint.

TIMC
January 9, 2011, 03:27 AM
When I looked around for my thumper AR I looked at the .450 Bushmaster,
.458 Socom and the .50 Beowulf. We can talk numbers all day but for a gun I planned on using under 200 yards only all three for any practical purpose are just as deadly. What made my final decision was the others "just ain't a .50." The decision was as simple as that.

I hand load for my Wulf and have tested a lot of bullet weights and powder loads. I have a great accurate hunting load with the .334 grain Rainier HP bullets that is devistating on deer and pigs. The load is a little slower than A.A. factory ammo but it works great and is comfortable to shoot.

No my Wulf does not shoot the same as my 45/70's (I have 2 and did not want another) but that was not what I was looking for. I love my 45/70's when I want to shoot them but that is another thing all together for me.

I think we dwell too much on the little meaningless things of 100-200fps difference or I heard you can topple a skyscraper with this caliber in one shot. In my old age just plain old "Cause I want one" factor makes most of my decisions in gun buying. I say if you really want one buy it; you will be happy with the rifle. If you are worried about what the ammo cost then all three of the big thumpers are out of your league. I have had my Wulf for a couple of years now. I have taken a lot of game with it in "Just for fun" hunting and really don't consider it a serious hunter since I do have rifles I favor as the meat getters in much lighter calibers but I still like the big bad wulf a lot!

So to the OP... Build your wulf and don't worry about the little things!

Welding Rod
January 9, 2011, 03:12 PM
I don't like to repeat myself, but when the big bore threads come up I usually chime in on my experience with the 450 and 458. I have owned two of each.

I kept the 458 and felt lucky to be able to get rid of the 450s for a modest loss.

IMO the 450 is a nice cartridge, available, and not too expensive. That is why I bought two of them. I also found the cartridge to show good accuracy potential.

However the physical dimensions of the case are not well matched to the AR 556 magazine in which they are intended to be loaded. IMO the poor fit of the 450 in a 556 mag lips is absolutely Mickey Mouse, at best. I would never consider relying on it for anything even remotely important. That could change if Bush Master would make a purpose built magazine properly designed for the dimensions of their cartridge, but for me, not until then.

The cartridge is just slightly larger in diameter that the gap between the mag lips. Just barely. So in my experience with different mags, including the Bushmaster supplied mags, the lips spread so that the top cartridge was always close to popping out through the lips. With a loaded magzine, if you lightly lifted upwards on the tip of a bullet, the whole cartridge could be stood straight up and down in the magzine as the cartridge would simply slip through the mag lips as they spread apart. During shooting, I don't think any round in the magzine came to rest in the lips at exactly the same angle and elevation twice.

Additionally, the taper of the 450 cartridge body make ill suited for full mag loading in 30 round mags. The taper to the cartridge does not come close to matching the magazine curve when the cartridges are loaded inside. The more rounds that were put in a mag, the greater the problem with feed lip spreading and the top cartridge taking on a new orientation.

The 458 cartridge case is much larger in diameter so it doesn't have the problem with the mag feed lips, and the taper of the cartridge allows it to load in 30 round GI type magazines (not PMAGS).

As stated by others, the downside to the 458 is cost of loaded ammo and brass. Additionally, it would be nice if the extractor used for the 458 had a little more contact area with the rim, though I haven't heard of problems with it. Its relatively small bite can be a little rough on the cartridge rim though.

I have no experience with the Beowulf. The large case shouldn't have any problems slipping through or spreading the feed lips. However after my experiences with the 450, I would certainly investigate how well that round stacks in a full mag before buying one.

1stmarine
January 9, 2011, 09:58 PM
I had similar problems. I got a few H&K and SIG magazines in a good deal and problem solved. They are superior also in the standard GI round.
Cheers,
E.

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