Have We Been Desensitized?


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Jotobo
January 7, 2011, 11:54 PM
There is this continual argument of caliber forever. People seem to be convinced that not only will a certain caliber be the end all be all, but that you have to have a certain load of ammo...

At one point is it just enough to carry some form of firearm protection and have a form of proficient use with it?

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brandon_mcg
January 8, 2011, 12:14 AM
i'm not sure if it is desensitization more so than people being over opinionated.

you get the same arguments with brands of guns, computers, guitars, cars, etc.

buy what you like and, as you said, what you are going to practice with and become proficient with.

1SOW
January 8, 2011, 12:19 AM
There was a TV news story two days ago in San Antonio TX about a couple who were upstairs asleep when they heard loud noises downstairs. They both came to the top of the stairs and yelled "Who's there." Downstairs, a stranger had broken into their home looked up at them. The woman raised a pistol (9mm I believe) and shot once. They then called the police who found the bad guy downstairs dead. They also caught his partner who ran.

She was evidently either extremely lucky or very proficient with an obviously adequate pistol.

I tend to agree with you up to a point. Would a two inch barrel 22lr revolver make you feel confident you could protect yourself or family? Probably not, so the question always comes up; what weapon will make you 'feel' adequate to protect your family?

It's your decision to make. Make it, and don't worry about what's hyped on an anonymous forum.

bigfatdave
January 8, 2011, 04:25 AM
The continual blathering about caliber or bullet choice* come from people who think their software problems can be solved with hardware purchasing.



* (beyond using a decent HP design)

Damon555
January 8, 2011, 11:14 AM
I love my GlockKimberSigRugerBarettaSmith&Wesson's. Especially in .22.38.357.38super.45acp.9mm caliber.

I don't discriminate based on brand or caliber. Quality weapons + quality ammo = good times in my book.

Caliper_RWVA
January 8, 2011, 11:25 AM
Yes, any gun is better than no gun, but certain calibers ARE better than others. I don't think we are desensitized, we are educated.

I think alot of the caliber wars are fought by a few diehards though. For the most part, I think people would agree that somewhere in the .38/380/9mm area is the minimum caliber for SD/HD

Why do people argue about caliber x vs y? Because there is no counter-argument to statements like "only hits count".

Zerodefect
January 8, 2011, 11:27 AM
There is this continual argument of caliber forever. People seem to be convinced that not only will a certain caliber be the end all be all, but that you have to have a certain load of ammo...

At one point is it just enough to carry some form of firearm protection and have a form of proficient use with it?

Yeah, pretty much true.

If you have good training. Magpul, Vickers, TDI etc. Shoot and preferably compete often, IDPA, IPSCA, etc. Then with just about any decent pistol and ammo, you should be ahead of the curve for defense. As long as your Sit Awareness can keep up.

But if your spouse gets stupid and ends up in the line of fire, you'll want something a bit more accurate. And there's a hundred similar rare senerios where something accurate with decent capacity is a nice thing to have.

90% of the time a good shooter only needs a little Kahr P9. But there still are very good reasons why larger Glock 23's and 1911's are handy.

Bottom line for me: I carry as much caliber, ammo, and size of gun as todays or tonights wardrobe will allow, or what my enviroment will allow.

I obviously carry larger weapons at night when they're easier to conceal, and smaller weapons on a summer day when I have less on.

RobMoore
January 8, 2011, 11:41 AM
With increase in caliber comes a decrease in capacity. Find the balance.

For me, I don't think the increase in performance of the .45acp over the 9 is worth the decrease in capacity.

I don't plan on missing much, but we all know how plans survive in battle.

shockwave
January 8, 2011, 11:52 AM
Caliber is only part of the picture. Criminologist and researcher Gary Kleck estimates that defensive uses of handguns may number as high as 2 million or so incidents a year.

Simple math leads to the conclusion that possession of the firearm almost always resolves a critical incident without recourse to wounding or killing the assailant. In other words, brandishing does seem to have a powerful effect in actual practice.

Because the term is volatile, here I would qualify "brandishing" as not meaning "ostentatious display of firearm to threaten" but rather merely the "production and preparation of weapon." Just in this discussion.

So a BG is facing you and you draw and it's the very last moment and he or she decides that retreat is the better move. Problem solved.

In this kind of scenario, which again, is maybe 99.9 percent of all actual uses of the defensive firearm, 1) the BG is uninterested in caliber, and 2) a gun that looks like a gun is probably helpful.

So I tend to lean toward guns that look like serious guns. The Kahr and Kel-tec and similar mouseguns will have an effect, but there's something to be said for the visuals, too. It's a kind of bonus on top of the total firepower you're bringing to the party.

Mike J
January 8, 2011, 12:01 PM
I have read news stories of people being killed by pellet guns but that doesn't mean I would want to use one for self defense. Most folks say anything from .380 in a semi-auto & .38 special in a revolver on up. Personally I own a subcompact 9mm & a couple of .40's. I would say this is definitely a personal choice. As far as ammunition I believe any good JHP will do for defensive purposes.

Don357
January 8, 2011, 12:50 PM
Has anybody stopped to think that using a large caliber handgun for presonal defence could open a door for civil and criminal lawsuits in regards to "intent to kill" and "amount of damage", the same way that ammo types and handloaded defence ammo does? A "left wing, anti-gun, liberal, shyster lawyer", could make a humdinger of a case and possibly set legal presidence.

EddieNFL
January 8, 2011, 01:06 PM
No. It's either a justified shooting or not.

Would I be considered a criminal for using a shotgun or rifle, rather than a handgun?

The 2nd Law of Gun Safety - Never Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!

Pretty sure that's the intent anytime someone fires at a threat. No caliber ceiling mentioned.

Sam1911
January 8, 2011, 01:18 PM
Has anybody stopped to think that using a large caliber handgun for presonal defence could open a door for civil and criminal lawsuits in regards to "intent to kill" and "amount of damage", the same way that ammo types and handloaded defence ammo does?

About 47 million times. But that's only on one gun forum. It is, of course, so much hooey -- just like it is with various ammo types or handloaded defense ammo.

76shuvlinoff
January 8, 2011, 01:24 PM
I took a bit a defensive handgun training, I practice albeit not as much as I probably should. I might carry a .45 a .40 or a .380, it's situation dependent. I know how my choices work, I can make quick com hits at defensive ranges but fortunately never have had to do that with my target shooting back at me.

I feel good about my caliber choices and unless something real world happens to change that I think that's all anyone really has to go on.

KBintheSLC
January 8, 2011, 02:12 PM
Yes, any gun is better than no gun. However, if you find yourself in a gun fight, I doubt you will be wishing for a smaller gun.

Sniderman
January 8, 2011, 03:01 PM
Have We Been Desensitized?

Short answer, Yes, I think we have.
I agree that proficient use of what you have is paramount to self defense.
The caliber/load "Discussions" have been going on ever since the first cavemen threw the first rocks,,,(What size rock? round versus angular?)
If one has ever actually heard a high caliber discharge in a closed space, just the blast/noise is devastating!
(Long Ago, .44 Special, Stupid/Careless former friend's house)
For Myself, I've got a .44 Redhawk and a 1911, but the Revolver close at hand at home is loaded with .38s.
A couple of those in the chest at close range, I obviously beleive, will change a BG's priorities in a hurry.
LEO's whacked BGs with .38 specials to some quite positive effect for about a century.
Don't even get me started about the reality of touching off a 12 ga. in the kiutchen!

Jotobo
January 8, 2011, 03:49 PM
At one time I considered buying a .32 acp. You can hardly get through 5 posts without someone using the "dont shoot someone with it, you will only make them mad" comment. But that caliber was used and is still used and works.

I cant imagine you should be defensively shooting outside of 5 yards, give or take. In those situations I have to believe not only would a .32 work but so would a .22.

Proud Southern Son
January 8, 2011, 04:13 PM
I think it's a matter of the choice of firearm and ammunition being very personal and very important to the person making it. If someone else makes a completely different choice, some people tend to get defensive. It's a fairly natural human response.
I'm not going to tell anyone they've made the "wrong" choice if they've chosen a reliable weapon that they can fire proficiently, with a reliable round made by a reputable manufacturer, and that they feel comfortable carrying. That being said, I will gladly tell someone why I choose the gun and ammo that I carry.

speedway
January 8, 2011, 07:44 PM
38 Special or 9mm minimum.

I do have an 380 LCP on days that I need super deep concealment though.

RedAlert
January 8, 2011, 09:25 PM
I really doubt Shockwave, that if you are staring at the business end of a Kahr or Kel-tec, you are highly unlikely to think to yourself: "All is well, that's only a mousegun!"

A .40S&W, a 9mm, or .45cal round, in a compact frame gun is just as deadly as from a full size frame weapon.

Now if you require a significant number of rounds to end the engagement, then by all means select a full size weapon with hi-cap mag to carry.

shockwave
January 8, 2011, 09:33 PM
I really doubt Shockwave, that if you are staring at the business end of a Kahr or Kel-tec, you are highly unlikely to think to yourself: "All is well, that's only a mousegun!"

No no no. You miss the point. The problem is that if a person draws a tiny black thing, it might not be recognized as a gun at all. Maybe it's a cell phone, or a canister of CS spray, or a key ring. I don't know.

Problem is, one of those little mouseguns in the dark, might not even be seen at all. So they have little in the way of brandishment potential. If that's what you have, you may be forced to shoot whereas with something more substantial, you wouldn't.

Caliper_RWVA
January 9, 2011, 01:27 AM
Problem is, one of those little mouseguns in the dark, might not even be seen at all. So they have little in the way of brandishment potential. If that's what you have, you may be forced to shoot whereas with something more substantial, you wouldn't.

... so, invest in a Desert Eagle! :evil:

Actually, you have a good point. Especially with some of the .22 mini revolvers out there!

HelterSkelter
January 9, 2011, 01:29 AM
people just like to make sure that they kill the bad guy as dead as possible. say load A kills bad guy 100% dead and load b kills them 150% dead. load b is better. nuff said.

ol' scratch
January 9, 2011, 07:32 AM
There was a TV news story two days ago in San Antonio TX about a couple who were upstairs asleep when they heard loud noises downstairs. They both came to the top of the stairs and yelled "Who's there." Downstairs, a stranger had broken into their home looked up at them. The woman raised a pistol (9mm I believe) and shot once. They then called the police who found the bad guy downstairs dead. They also caught his partner who ran.

She was evidently either extremely lucky or very proficient with an obviously adequate pistol.

I tend to agree with you up to a point. Would a two inch barrel 22lr revolver make you feel confident you could protect yourself or family? Probably not, so the question always comes up; what weapon will make you 'feel' adequate to protect your family?

It's your decision to make. Make it, and don't worry about what's hyped on an anonymous forum.
This CAN'T be true. Everyone knows the 9mm doesn't have any stopping power. It has all the effectiveness of a thrown stone. You made this up and it is an elaborate scheme to get people to buy 9mm handguns. Everyone knows that a pistol round isn't effective unless it has a '4' in the name.:rolleyes:

ol' scratch
January 9, 2011, 07:36 AM
Double post

ol' scratch
January 9, 2011, 07:38 AM
people just like to make sure that they kill the bad guy as dead as possible. say load A kills bad guy 100% dead and load b kills them 150% dead. load b is better. nuff said.
...unless the person is recoil sensitive and never practices with their full-sized pistol. Or if they flinch and completely miss. Shot placement is key. Practice with what you feel comfortable with. The only effective bullet is the bullet that hits its mark.

johnnylaw53
January 9, 2011, 07:43 AM
"The continual blathering about caliber or bullet choice* come from people who think their software problems can be solved with hardware purchasing." from bigfatdave

I think that say it well, been involved in LE both military and county for a total of 38 years have seen a few gun related crimes. It never matter what the person had that defended him/her self as long as they had a gun of some kind and knew how to use it.

be safe

JohnBT
January 9, 2011, 08:19 AM
""The continual blathering about caliber or bullet choice* "

It's a gun forum, don't expect to see a discussion of stamp collecting or surfing. We like talking about gun related stuff. Next week's suggested topic: RH or LH barrel twist; does it make a difference.

bigfatdave
January 9, 2011, 09:06 AM
Oh it sure does!

Everyone knows that hollowpoints are designed to expand while spinning from a RH twist barrel! How do you not know that?!?!?!

481
January 9, 2011, 11:32 AM
There is this continual argument of caliber forever. People seem to be convinced that not only will a certain caliber be the end all be all, but that you have to have a certain load of ammo...

At one point is it just enough to carry some form of firearm protection and have a form of proficient use with it?

Yep.

Proficiency, proper shot placement notwithstanding, outweighs caliber selection.

I'd rather get a good solid "hit" COM with a "small caliber" round that I can control under stress of confrontation than a peripheral "hit" or complete "miss" with a "large caliber" round.

Amateurs argue equipment; professionals emphasize training.

BlindJustice
January 9, 2011, 12:58 PM
I got out of firearm ownership in the early/mid 80s, after being a gun owner and entusiast from my early teens in the '60s I always bought at least one gun mag annual to keep an eye firearms being offered and read the
magazines. Guns & Ammo, American Handgunner etc. so I get back into
it and have been on the Internet since '89? Anyway I sign up for a forum
and the first thread I noted here


???

.357 Mag versus .45 ACP

Heck that was a magazine subject that some writer would put out
in <name the mag rag> every 3 years or so since I started reading
gun mgazines so, the more things change the more they remain the
same. Kinetic energy ( smaller bore / hhigher velocity/ lighter bullet )
vs Momentum ( Big bore SLower heavy bullet) or Revolver vs Semi-Auto....

Cartridge / Caliber Wars Bah - can yah hit anything with that thing ?

R-

Jotobo
January 9, 2011, 01:04 PM
True.

Ive found with my .380 I could easily make half the rounds hit COM under stress. I can hit all of them with either hand during practice. I can do this out to about 6 yards while taking no time to aim, just point and shoot. Honestly, I shouldnt be shooting someone that far away. Thats entering into a gray area self defense wise.

At that range a human body would be screwed. 3 or 4 shots from a .380 at 2-4 yards equals threat neutralized 9 out of 10 times. I think this would be true with a .32 as well.

It seems there are all these stories people can share where only a .45 or .357 would work. I jsut dont see it. People have been getting shot and killed with far weaker bullet and gun technology that we have now.

Sniderman
January 9, 2011, 04:08 PM
Stopping power,
Jack Ruby says that a .38 will do the job.
Lee Harvey Oswald agrees,,,:what:

SA Town
January 9, 2011, 05:05 PM
The continual blathering about caliber or bullet choice* come from people who think their software problems can be solved with hardware purchasing.



* (beyond using a decent HP design)

Hollow point or Hewlett Packard? ;)

RedAlert
January 10, 2011, 09:37 AM
Shockwave, I now see the point you were making. Not sure I agree, but it could be a factor.

In my home there would be no confusion. 12 bore shotgun, in blue, black or stainless, still looks like a subway tunnel to the invader. If I use my handguns, they will see only light from the tac light, not the muzzle in any case.

Don357
January 11, 2011, 06:07 PM
Please understand my last post, that I'm not advocating for "mouseguns" or "handcannons", "factory loads" or "hand loads", but I did read in a forum somewhere, it could have even been this one, where personal defence ammo was being discussed and several posters commented that they would not use even their own "hand loads" for defense loads because of legal reprocussions and "intent" arguments that could be raised by lawyers for the BG or "anti-gun" groups.
I personally have no problem using my own handloads or any caliber for defense. I own and carry, depending on the situation, a .380 Kel-Tec, a 9mm Kel-Tec, a .357 Ruger or a .45acp FEG. The key to a defensive firearm is hitting your target, regardless of caliber or type of ammo.

Skinsanity
January 11, 2011, 06:23 PM
from what I have found, in every enthusiast, be it cameras, or guns, or model trains..Is that they like to Disuss the object of their interest, they like to debate it, and they like to brag about what they have, in a way that doesnt make it look like they are bragging..And you can replace "they" with "we"..chuckles

really...all of us KNOW that a .25, or a .32 can kill you...we KNOW that there is no magic bullet thats always effective...and we all know that ANYTHING can be proven with the right slant on statistics...but we enjoy talking about our passions, we enjoy the Glock vs. 1911 debate, and we all know that the debates will never be solved...

Its not so much de-sensitization, as it is just wanting to gather with our feloows and talk about things that interest us...wouldnt be that exciting if each post of "is a .357 better than a .45" was answered with everyone saying "It just depends on a lot of variables that are beyond our control, so really , that question can't be answered and if it is, it can't be proven"

Dulvarian
January 11, 2011, 06:37 PM
I was always of the school of carry the biggest thing you can conceal and are proficient with.

While I have shot a .50 DE before, I would not want to pull that out to shoot an immediate threat that invokes fear of substantial harm or death. For me, I can't think of anywhere I could comfortably carry it. I can't imagine the draw time compared to something smaller. While I am sure that it would be intimidating, I will settle for something of the .45 persuasion.

I am extremely proficient with my own guns.

+1 to 481: Amateurs argue equipment; professionals emphasize training.

I think being desensitized would be still being able to talk in your normal voice while your girlfriends father puts the barrel of a nickel plated 1911 about two inches from your forehead. Yes, if the lighting is right, you can see a hollow point loaded in the chamber of a 1911 looking down the barrel. Lol, and for the record, that memory is so clearly ingrained in my mind... part of the reason I chose a .45. I have looked down the business end of one before. It looks like you can put your hand inside the barrel when you vision pinpoints in and you lose visual perspective.

easyg
January 11, 2011, 06:59 PM
I can only see a few reasons to go with a small caliber (.380 or smaller):

1) Those are the largest calibers that you are proficient with.
Maybe due to age, weak hands, medical condition, physical limitations, recoil sensitivity, noise sensitivity, etc....but for whatever reason you just can't accurately and quickly shoot 9mm or larger.

or

2) You just want a tiny gun that doesn't take up too much room in your pocket, or purse.

bigfatdave
January 11, 2011, 09:20 PM
1) Those are the largest calibers that you are proficient with.Little bitty guns are HARDER to shoot well, not easier.

Now, a duty-size gun in .32acp would be an easy one, I think some Bullseye shooters have large guns in .32 for the "centerfire" category, but mouseguns are advanced weapons, not beginner's guns.

2) You just want a tiny gun that doesn't take up too much room in your pocket, or purse. This is a concern for the "I only carry once in a while" crowd, or those desiring extreme deep concealment for whatever reason. Once you start buying quality gear and dressing around the weapon it becomes much less of a concern.

BUT ... for some reason the endless search for a "light, concealable, flat, big-bore, inexpensive, accurate, knockdown power having, easy for my wife to shoot, not too loud, scary-looking, light-mounting, laser-gripped, easy-to-maintain" gun continues, for the purposes of "carrying when I go to a bad neighborhood". It goes along with the "Glock vs .45" debate and the caliber wars, among people who are trying to solve their software issues by buying hardware.

Amateurs argue equipment; professionals emphasize training. Damn right, the caliber wars are a dead giveaway of amateurs.

makarovnik
January 12, 2011, 01:10 AM
I know I've been desensitized.

cougar1717
January 12, 2011, 03:44 PM
Yes, we have been desensitized in several ways.
1) There are so many caliber choices which are very good but leads to incessant comparison over differences in the minutiae.
2) Our consumer mentality in America that the equipment makes the man.
3) It used to be that if you liked a product, you used it and that was it. Someone had to ask your opinion before we gave it. Now, we feel the need to impress our opinions on others. Pride has increased so that if you deviate from someone's opinion, you are wrong. The internet has only magnified that.
4) The breakdown of the family has meant that many children do/did not receive any approval. We all need someone to say that they are proud of us. As adults, to gain the approval of others, some of our thinking is twisted. We think, "If I only had ____, then they will like/be proud of/respect me." A man's life does not consist of the abundance of his possessions.
5) We are intent on justifying that what we have is "best".
6) If what we have cannot be the "best", then we rationalize that what we have is "best" for the price.
7) We are not content with what we have. But contentment with Godliness is great gain.

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