Defarbing ?s


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jtscuba02
January 10, 2011, 07:24 PM
I have seen this being offered for rifles, but I want to know if they do it for revolvers. How do they do it? Can you tell that it has been done? I know some unscrupulous people have done it to some firearms to hide the import marks on the underside of the barrels, but what if I wanted it done for a revolver I had no plan of parting ways with?

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Jim Watson
January 10, 2011, 07:50 PM
It's a snow day, so I looked it up for you.

Two problems.
One, if you are talking about a breechloader, it is a "firearm" and therefore illegal to remove or alter identifying markings, not just the serial number. I guess you could do it to a cap n ball.

Two, the major makers, Colt and Remington, are still in business and would object to you remarking your Uberti with their trademark.

jtscuba02
January 10, 2011, 08:28 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of C&B revolver. I never thought of the copyright infringement. I wonder how they get away with it for the Springfield muskets? Thanks for the info.

Prairie Dawg
January 10, 2011, 08:29 PM
Talk to Fingers McGee.
He has it done to some of his Italian revolvers.
--Dawg

Fingers McGee
January 10, 2011, 08:40 PM
Defarbing is the process of removing European makers and proof marks from the barrels and frames of reproduction percussion and flintlock guns so they look more authentic to the period being portrayed. Civil War and other historical reenactors have it done to their firearms. It involves filing, sanding, or grinding off the markings and refinishing the gun. A good defarber can make a gun look like an original. There's no law against it and nothing wrong with doing it, as l long as it is not being done to commit a fraud - like antiquing a Pietta Patterson and passing it off as an original for sale.

jtscuba02
January 10, 2011, 08:54 PM
Thanks Prairie Dawg.

Fingers McGee, Have you done this yourself or did you have someone do it for you? I see a bunch of stuff about muskets but nothing about revolvers.

Fingers McGee
January 11, 2011, 12:34 AM
I had a couple revolvers done. Turned a couple Uberti Leech and Rigdons into a pair of C.H. Rigdon Augusta Revolvers. Took the Uberti markings, serial numbers and proof marks off & added the C.H.Rigdon, Augusta, and CSA markings with new serial numbers in the correct locations. They were still marked on the barrel, under the loading lever with Uberti and the date code so their true lineage could be seen.

madcratebuilder
January 11, 2011, 10:41 AM
Defarbing is pretty simple process if you have metal fab experience. Recreating period marking can offer more of a challenge.

here's a defarbed Paterson.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/paterson13.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/paterson15.jpg

The barrel marking is obviously different from the originals.

StrawHat
January 11, 2011, 11:49 AM
Instead of grinding and filing, removing metal from the firearm, some of the markings can be ironned out by burnishing with a piece of hardened steel. Stamped marking move metal to make the impression, burnishing pushes it back.

nalioth
January 11, 2011, 11:59 AM
One, if you are talking about a breechloader, it is a "firearm" and therefore illegal to remove or alter identifying markings, not just the serial number. I guess you could do it to a cap n ball.The only "identifying markings" legally required on a firearm legally required to have them is the serial number.

junkman_01
January 11, 2011, 12:22 PM
nalioth is correct
Here is the part of GCA68 that covers it....

Marking Requirements
The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and Firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968#Marking_Requirements

Jim Watson
January 11, 2011, 02:55 PM
There was a long thread here a month ago that had a lot of debate about the legality of removing manufacturer and importer identification from a gun.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=560239&highlight=Billboard
Opinions and literature cites seemed about equal both ways.

I am cautious about things that would require me to pay a lawyer to read Wiki to the judge. Also, there are agency regulations considerably in excess of the letter and intent of the law. Will the feds take a close interest in your Eyetalian copy faked up to look like a Colt? Probably not. Maybe not.

I saw at a gun show several years ago a modern cartridge conversion that had been very thoroughly defarbed and antiqued to boot. It was offered as original at a high price. I knew it was a fake because I had one at home just like it except retaining the correct markings. Of course you wouldn't do that, but suppose you traded guns with somebody less ethical.

junkman_01
January 11, 2011, 03:03 PM
As was previously stated, removing markings to commit fraud is a felony. It's not the removing them that is against the law, it's the fraud that's against the law. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two!

WIKI was only a reference. If you want the actual GCA68, I can get you that too.

BTW, I am of Italian descent, and I resent your spelling of my parents nationality.

Tallship
January 11, 2011, 03:19 PM
921 (a) (3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

That means that NOTHING in the 68 GCA applies to antique firearms. Go ahead and defarb to your heart's content (just don't try to sell it as an original).

junkman_01
January 11, 2011, 03:24 PM
Tallship,

Thank you. I guess that settles THIS debate. :neener:

Jim Watson
January 11, 2011, 07:28 PM
I don't think an imported reproduction made last year qualifies as an antique.

And from the start I was referring to a cartridge firearm, not a cap and ball which is not as restricted as a breechloader.

Tallship
January 11, 2011, 09:06 PM
Yes, it does:

(16) The term "antique firearm" means --


(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,

percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or

before 1898; and


(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such

replica --

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional

centerfire fixed ammunition, or


(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is

no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily

available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

nalioth
January 11, 2011, 09:08 PM
I don't think an imported reproduction made last year qualifies as an antique.Under the law, antique muzzle loaders and their modern brethren are treated the same regarding their legal status of "firearm".

Last month's container load of C&B Uberti pistols doesn't include any actual antiques, but the law treats them equally.

Jim Watson
January 11, 2011, 09:10 PM
Full quotes, guys, not out of context:

And from the start I was referring to a cartridge firearm, not a cap and ball which is not as restricted as a breechloader.

Immaterial, it is not something I would be interested in.

I'm done.

junkman_01
January 11, 2011, 09:34 PM
Bye!

jtscuba02
January 12, 2011, 08:45 PM
Thanks everybody for the info. I guess I'm gonna try this when I get back to the house.

madcratebuilder
January 13, 2011, 08:31 AM
I'm gonna try this when I get back to the house.

Hone your skills with a low cost brasser. Most is draw file work, then sanding for finial finish.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/short02.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/rightblue01.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/gripmod03.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/gripmod05.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/snuubie1101.jpg

jtscuba02
January 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
Madcratebuilder, I am truly impressed! That looks great. First, did you blue it yourself and second where did the grips come from?

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