.357 magnum: Korth vs. Smith


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Strykervet
January 10, 2011, 10:09 PM
Of those of you who have used and/or owned both a Smith 686 and a comparable Korth, which do you prefer and why? How is the workmanship of the Korth compared to the Smith?

I have never seen a Korth for sale that I could give a good going over, much less dry fire or live fire. I do have a 686+ 6" that is very, very well broken in and has the trigger worked to my exact liking. I can't imagine a better revolver.

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Tinman357
January 10, 2011, 10:54 PM
I don't imagine you'll get to many people who own both. The smith you have has a good rep for a good trigger that can be made great.

The few Korth's I've seen were in the several thousand dollar range. No, They didn't let me dry fire them. :what:

The comparison would be like comparing a Chevrolet (Smith) to a Lamborghini Countach 5000 S (Korth) The hand fitting and finish along with superb mechanical accuracy isn't cheap by any means. That's why they cost so much.

If you get one, let us know how it shoots.

451 Detonics
January 11, 2011, 12:24 AM
We had a Korth in the shop, 4 inch. I must say I wasn't impressed when I shot it. The trigger was very reminiscent of a tuned Colt Lawman, it was a kind of a progressive trigger starting lighter than it finished. I much prefer a tuned S&W. It was the Combat Model with vent rib and had a 9mm cylinder with it as well.

dnovo
January 11, 2011, 08:41 AM
I have owned a Korth and currently collect, and shoot, a lot of Colt and S&W DAs. The Korth, IMHO, is both overpriced and overrated. Nothing special and the quality has nothing on the older American counterparts. Save your money. Dave

hardluk1
January 11, 2011, 09:12 AM
Since your looking to spend some serous cash why not add a Dan Wesson to the want list. New 357mag 715 model is comeing out this summer but all the used ones can still out perform most any new revolvers and you can find very nice moson mass made models for 400 and up and still find a pistol pack for the price of the avage new s&w

CraigC
January 11, 2011, 10:18 AM
I'd love to be able to examine and preferably disassemble a Korth but I doubt that will ever happen. I have this sinking feeling that while they are better than your average S&W, they are probably still not worth their asking price. $5000 will net you a Best Grade custom gun from Hamilton Bowen and IMHO, would be money far better spent.

InkEd
January 11, 2011, 10:27 AM
I only handled a Korth and thought.... WOW!...... What an overpriced waste of time.

Buy a tuned Python or PC 686 and be happy.

SharpsDressedMan
January 11, 2011, 10:39 AM
Get a Ruger Security Six and have it gone over by any of the the latest and greatest revolver smiths. All the Ruger needs is a first class trigger job, and exterior cosmetics, if you lean that way. A very strong gun, and mine rivals any of my other gun for accuracy.

Strykervet
January 11, 2011, 08:37 PM
Thanks for the replies. I sort of suspected that it was overpriced for what you get. I'll stick with my 686. The trigger is already worked and tuned to my liking. I couldn't imagine better, but thought I'd ask.

Nematocyst
January 11, 2011, 08:49 PM
Here's another reason I love this forum. I've been a member here for over five years,
own two SW, have learned tons about them, other SW, Ruger, Taurus, etc.

But I've never heard of Korth revolvers (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/double-action-revolvers/de/korth-e.html) until now.

Always something new to learn.

Shoot66
January 11, 2011, 10:13 PM
I have been contemplating a Korth myself for a time. Had a .22 LR Sport in mind.
I am surprised how unequivocal the presented opinions are. Thanks.

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 08:27 AM
"both a Smith 686 and a comparable Korth"

S&W is far better. Keep reading.

I drove 50 miles a few years ago to look at a Korth .38 at a gun shop. I learned something that day.

The early Korth revolvers were nothing special. They were well made, had heavy trigger pulls and looked like a S&W. You should be able to get one for $500 to $800 or so.

John

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 08:38 AM
Korth build materials are much better that new Smiths but that does not matter to most people.

Having never handled a Korth I cannot compare beyond there.

hinton03
January 12, 2011, 08:45 AM
Shot one in Germany in the 1980's; nice firearm but not significantly better than a stock Python in my opinion. Of course a Python will run you $1,500 to 2,000 these days: I am glad I didn't trade mine away, like I did with others I wish I had kept, back when I was a poor Captain and had the new gun fever.

dnovo
January 12, 2011, 08:48 AM
I have heard the claim that Korth supposedly used "better materials" than American guns but other than statements to that effect from them and a handful of Europeon pubs, have not seen that confirmed anywhere else. And even so, so what? It would be offset by the prices and, as noted in an earlier post and based on my own experience with a Korth, not the nicest trigger.

For less money, have Bowen, Reeder or any number of American builders build you a better DA. Dave

rayman
January 12, 2011, 08:52 AM
"europeon"...heh,heh,heh

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 09:10 AM
have not seen that confirmed anywhere else

Smiths are made with molded parts, Korths forged.

dnovo
January 12, 2011, 09:16 AM
New Smiths, and only certain parts, and not the guns in the same "age bracket" as the Korths you find for sale in the current US market. You want a 'production revolver built from fine materials and built as good as possible? Buy a Freedom Arms. Dave

Monster Zero
January 12, 2011, 09:37 AM
Yes, your analogy is good, and that Lambourghini isn't going to get you to work and back, and stop and pick up some bread and milk and a couple of boxes of ammo one bit quicker than that Chevy. It will do it more stylishly of course if that's important to you.

What I really want a revolver to do is to launch a bullet 6 times so far as this comparison's concerned.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 09:44 AM
Buy a Freedom Arms

when they start producing a competing product I would consider it.

dnovo
January 12, 2011, 11:28 AM
Competing with what? Korth? Haven't seen a new one in years. Last time I spoke to Earl, who was the last distributor I was aware of, he didn't have any and the price listed were astronomical.

What axe are you grinding here? Korth is, or was, a product of the 'if it is built in Germany it must be the best' view that goes back to when Porsche was still building the 356, a lovely, hand built, and very expensive sports car that was a niche product in the 50s and 60s and has now morphed into something far different, and the Lecia rangefinders, very well crafted, and the epitome of 50s optics -- and priced accordingly. Times have changed. Germany no longer builds things that cannot be found as well built or assembled elsewhere. (Indeed, a lot of Mercedes and other German builders assemble cars in Mexico. Some BMW motorcycles are still built in Berlin, but a portion of their line is built elsewhere and their newest sportbikes in China.) You are living in the past if you feel that Korth -- if it in fact still building these guns -- has something special to offer buyers, other than high prices.

So, you don't like Freedom Arms, for some unstated reason, Smiths are garbage, etc. Okay can you post pictures of your Korth's and tell us where we should go to buy them at a 'competitive' price against whatever is out there? Or is there nothing out there? Please respond since I need to tell Hamilton Bowen and others to close up shop as they are out of the competition.

Sorry if this sounds a bit sarcastic. Well, actually, no, it seems like you are just trolling here and perhaps it needs to be said.

Your lob. Dave

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 11:42 AM
Competing with what?
double action revolvers

What axe are you grinding here?
none whatsoever. I suspect that you might have confused me with some other posters. I made 3 posts, none extolling the virtues of Korth except build materials.

I certainly never said anything that can construed to suggestyou don't like Freedom Arms, for some unstated reason, Smiths are garbage

dnovo
January 12, 2011, 11:46 AM
Okay, then I stand (or actually sit) corrected and apologize if I bit you for no reason. Sometimes I am just a cranky old coot. Sorry. Dave

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 11:51 AM
no worries Dave.

I have read a thread and attributed things to another poster. (That is what I suspect happened here.)

But hey...this is internet gun chat...it's all good. :D

DM~
January 12, 2011, 11:53 AM
I was offered a Korth for $1,000.00 one time, i thought it was over priced for that money!

Make mine a Smith please!!

DM

pbearperry
January 12, 2011, 12:15 PM
The Korth was made for people who need status symbols.It does nothing a S&W ,Colt,or Ruger can't do.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 12:29 PM
someone has their THR signature as "a Korth is a Korth of Course, of Course"
:D

CraigC
January 12, 2011, 01:29 PM
The Korth was made for people who need status symbols.It does nothing a S&W ,Colt,or Ruger can't do.
While I agree with the general principle that the Korth is overpriced and probably at least half the cost is purely to puff up the egoes of the rich and shameless. However, there are some of us who appreciate finer fit and finish than is typically exhibited in your average S&W, Colt or Ruger. We just typically buy custom guns, FA's and USFA's. It has nothing to do with "status".

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 01:35 PM
So, you don't like Freedom Arms, for some unstated reason, Smiths are garbage, etc. Okay can you post pictures of your Korth's and tell us where we should go to buy them at a 'competitive' price against whatever is out there? Or is there nothing out there? Please respond since I need to tell Hamilton Bowen and others to close up shop as they are out of the competition.Try Egun.de. I bought dozens of Korth revolvers there at prices ranging from 1,000 to 2,500 Euros. To me, this price is justified by their unsurpassed quality of manufacture. All steel parts of Korth revolvers are ground, polished, and differentially hardened. By contrast, Smith and Wesson no longer even bothers to machine the firing systems of its revolvers, resorting to the tawdry expedient of injection molding. Willi Korth claimed that his revolvers maintain their accuracy after 50,000 full power .357 Magnum rounds. For those who doubt his claim, here (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=122799) is a testimonial pitting a Korth revolver against a vintage forged S&W M28:I mentioned the strength of the metal in the Korth as well as the care of the hand fitting. I began some tests of the Korth vs. the M28. At the beginng of the tests the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was just over .0025 while that of the M28 was .003. With just under 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads through both guns the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was where it had begun for all cylinders. The M28 however had opended up and varied from .003 to .004. The S&W showed wear and some additional gas cutting on the frame above the barrel from some hot .125 grain loads. The Korth showed no significant wear.Please note that the frame size of the Korth falls between those of the K and L frames in the S&W lineup. And yet it withstands the pressures of heavy .357 Magnum loads much better than the S&W N frame. This factor alone warrants its premium price.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 01:39 PM
It has nothing to do with "status"



a Remington 870 will do everything that a Holland and Holland double barrel does...and more. Some buy the H&H for status but some merely appreciate them to the point of being willing to pay for them.

Smiths do nothing that a Rossi won't...but they sure do sell a buttload of them...many to people posting here about how it is silly to pay a premium because you like something better. :neener:

PzGren
January 12, 2011, 01:53 PM
I bought a Colt Python when I was young. I had to have that "cool" looking gun. I quickly retired it. I shot competitions with S&W revolvers, both ISSF and action. I used a S&W 14-2 in centerfire and a Walther GSP and later a Hämmerli 208 for rimfire.

I own many S&W revolvers, all nice older ones without the lock. And I bought them cheap when most people went for the "wondernines".

I own one Korth and those that say that it is a mere status symbol, or those that tried it and could not appreciate the trigger characteristics, are the guys that I laugh at when I see them at the range.

When I can find another 24 series Korth, I will go for it if I can find one at a price that I can afford. And the guns that I own are no safe queens, I am not a collector but a hard core shooter.

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 02:37 PM
When I can find another 24 series Korth, I will go for it if I can find one at a price that I can afford.De gustibus. I only go for Series 30 and later guns, despite their much higher cost. Here (http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3120319) is a nice Series 26 revolver at a reasonable price.

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 02:53 PM
"a Remington 870 will do everything that a Holland and Holland double barrel does...and more."

LOL

Yeah, okay, whatever. Keep right on believing that if you like.

JT

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 02:55 PM
"I was offered a Korth for $1,000.00 one time, i thought it was over priced for that money!"

Probably one of the early ones that I said sell for $500 or $800 or so. It was overpriced at $1000.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 03:04 PM
Yeah, okay, whatever. Keep right on believing that if you like

facts...I deal in facts

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 03:10 PM
Okay, it was a Model 20. Here's a guy who bought one for $225...

...with Taurus grips on it. :D

www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=368935


I also read about a run of 1,000 police revolvers. I don't know if this was one of them or not.

The steel on the expensive Korths is so hard (rockwell 60 iirc) that it barely gets dirty and it takes a great blue.

Jonh

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 03:12 PM
"facts...I deal in facts "

Okay, just for fun, an easy one. Will an 870 let you shoot two fast shots, one with an IC choke and one with a MOD choke? Nope. The H&H double will.

Fact.

Okay, another one. When you order the 870, will they fit it to your dimensions, style of shooting and intended usage for length of pull, cast, drop and so forth so it fits you and points where you look? Nope. H&H will. I don't believe Remington even employs a fitter.

Fact.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 03:16 PM
one with an IC choke and one with a MOD choke?

true...I stand corrected

I guess I should have used a $400 Russian side by side as the example instead

the main point, that premium guns (or in this case ultra-premium) do not do anything that cheaper guns don't

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 03:33 PM
A $400 Russian SxS?

Makes a good fence post or boat paddle. It's not a well balanced, fine handling shotgun at all.

You appear to think that if a gun will throw pellets downrange it's perfect and cannot be improved upon.

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 06:58 PM
You appear to think that if a gun will throw pellets downrange it's perfect and cannot be improved upon.You have made your point. Now apply it at home. Your earlier claim that "S&W is far better" should be qualified by noting that S&W lacks comprehensive single and double action trigger weight and stacking adjustments built into every .357 Magnum Korth revolver, and that the latter will unfailingly digest ten times the number of full bore Magnum rounds that will irreparably damage the former. Suum cuique.

Cosmoline
January 12, 2011, 07:11 PM
And yet it withstands the pressures of heavy .357 Magnum loads much better than the S&W N frame. This factor alone warrants its premium price.

Ruger could make the same claim, but they're not charging the same price. As far as the durability of the Korth, that's nullified by the fact that you can just buy multiple vintage Smiths. Or simply have them tuned up. And you'll still spend a lot less. Heck you could buy multiple PYTHONS for the price of the Korths stateside.

JohnBT
January 12, 2011, 07:34 PM
"Now apply it at home. Your earlier claim that "S&W is far better""

Ah, I see what you did, you left out some of what I posted. I said,

"S&W is far better. Keep reading."

If you had kept reading, I then got to the part about the earlier Korth guns that were of a lower quality and price point. See now? Then I went and found the post about the guy who got a Korth .38 for $225.

Korth reportedly also made at least one run of a thousand less expensive police revolvers.

I have some S&W's, but I really like my 2 Pythons. :D

John

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 07:38 PM
And yet it withstands the pressures of heavy .357 Magnum loads much better than the S&W N frame. This factor alone warrants its premium price.Ruger could make the same claim, but they're not charging the same price.If you mean the Ruger Redhawk .357, I suppose that it can be as durable as a Korth, given that it weighs half again as much. Consider that a 4" Korth Combat revolver weighs 1016g, whereas a 6" Sport model weighs 1175g, as against the much less rugged 4" and 6" S&W 686 weighing in at 1191g and 1298g, respectively. Can Ruger support the same claim in the frame size splitting the difference between the S&W K and L frames?As far as the durability of the Korth, that's nullified by the fact that you can just buy multiple vintage Smiths. Or simply have them tuned up. And you'll still spend a lot less.You cannot "tune up" a stretched frame.

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 07:47 PM
I have some S&W's, but I really like my 2 Pythons. :DI am very fond of my S&W Registered Magnums and Colt Pythons. But for social work or sport shooting I will pick up an MR73 or a Korth every time. They are that much better.

Cosmoline
January 12, 2011, 07:49 PM
You cannot "tune up" a stretched frame.

But you can just not worry about the thousands of an inch at issue. Or you can sell it off and pull out one of the other revolvers you bought for the price of a Korth.

Can Ruger support the same claim in the frame size splitting the difference between the S&W K and L frames?

The Sixes are slightly bigger than the K's. And tougher. But I'm not sure what's so valuable about being right between two S&W frame sizes.

I'm not knocking Korth. I've never shot one and given their rarity here and the incredible prices it's unlikely I ever will. Even if I had that kind of money, I'd have to work down a long list before I got to Korth. Just thinking about all the other things I could get for a few grand generates a very long list. From vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles to a brace of high grade Pythons.

It's all about the price in the end. Even the fellow in your posted torture test agrees:

I would under no circumstances pay full price or close to it for one of these

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 08:14 PM
But you can just not worry about the thousands of an inch at issue.Only until you start printing shotgun patterns owing to forcing cone erosion, while your shooting companions get lead showers from the barrel to cylinder gap grossly enlarged by frame stretch. Ask me how I know all that.Or you can sell it off and pull out one of the other revolvers you bought for the price of a Korth.As I said above (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6998321&postcount=29), aftermarket prices in Germany are quite reasonable. Besides, there are many good reasons to pay for quality once.The Sixes are slightly bigger than the K's. And tougher. But I'm not sure what's so valuable about being right between two S&W frame sizes.It's not hard to be tougher when you are slightly bigger. But size matters a lot when you carry the gun concealed. Incidentally, the later production runs of Korth revolvers include the very competitively priced, matte finished "Profi" model (http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm47.pl?f=NR&c=32111&t=temartic_S_GB&db=kat47_S.txt). I'm not knocking Korth. I've never shot one and given their rarity here and the incredible prices it's unlikely I ever will. Even if I had that kind of money, I'd have to work down a long list before I got to Korth. Just thinking about all the other things I could get for a few grand generates a very long list. From vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles to a brace of high grade Pythons.I pay between 350 and 900 Euros for high grade Pythons in Germany. Vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles are expensive everywhere.It's all about the price in the end.In the long run, quality matters more.

CraigC
January 12, 2011, 08:53 PM
the main point, that premium guns (or in this case ultra-premium) do not do anything that cheaper guns don't
That's a matter of opinion. If by "do not do anything that cheaper guns don't" you mean that they all go bang, then I would agree. Beyond that, and I hope all our expectations are at least a little higher, there can be a significant difference. Again, it has nothing to do with ego or status. An 870 or a Merkel 280 will both go "bang" when the trigger is pressed. The difference is that the Merkel does something the 870 does not. It is lighter. It is quicker for the first two shots. It fits me better. It handles better. It handles quicker. It points better. It has a better trigger. It has a more comfortable stock and pistol grip design. It has beautiful wood. It stirs my soul and is more enjoyable to own, shoot and hunt with.

I'm still trying to figure out why so many people feel the need to berate things they can't afford, or choose not to afford. It's snobbery of a different sort.

Guillermo
January 12, 2011, 09:01 PM
ok John,

I have a guild gun that a serious shotgunner would give his package to own (actually the value may have climbed since I last looked it up...but it isn't 25 grand).

You could come up with an example of your own.

Of course this is all minutia...you get the point...just refuse to acknowledge it.

Its okay...I coach high schoolers. I am used to it.

John Wayne
January 12, 2011, 09:26 PM
For the price of a Korth you could get a S&W Registered Magnum, which will probably be equally hard to find.

bragmardo
January 12, 2011, 09:33 PM
For the price of a Korth you could get a S&W Registered Magnum, which will probably be equally hard to find.I have two Registered Magnums in excellent mechanical shape. Most of the other specimens of prewar S&W Magnum revolvers that I have examined have had their barrel to cylinder gap stretched way out of factory spec. I never came across this kind of wear in a Korth Magnum revolver. Their production numbers are comparable.

oldfool
January 13, 2011, 07:49 AM
if you have to ask the price, don't
if you don't have to ask the price, do
pretty much that simple

nothing wrong with owning both, and/or a $25,000 O/U
(if you don't have to ask the price)
nothing wrong with owning a Hi-Point either, if you have to ask the price

no bashing required, no justification required, just dinero required

$600 k-frames suit my "needs"
but if I hit the mega-lotto, some $6000 guns will suit my "needs"

rayman
January 13, 2011, 09:29 AM
You know what I like about S&W's and colts? They're American and are a big part of American history. Lawmen, outlaws, soldiers and civillians have handled Smiths and Colts. That's cool in my book. A lot of them are passed down though generations too.

bragmardo
January 13, 2011, 10:51 AM
You know what I like about guns? They throw lead to the point of my aim, time after time, through thick and thin, with a minimum of fuss. The moment I am confronted with a target needful of leading, the national origins and historical cachet of my leading device become irrelevant. Performance is all that matters.

JohnBT
January 13, 2011, 11:52 AM
"Its okay...I coach high schoolers"

You're acting like them. You misread what I posted. Give it up.

Guillermo
January 13, 2011, 11:57 AM
okay John...on the baseline

give me a 6 by 36

Cosmoline
January 13, 2011, 01:01 PM
I have two Registered Magnums in excellent mechanical shape.

! What's going on over there? Where are you--the happy land where everyone gets a bunch of incredibly rare and expensive wheelguns? Korths for under a grand. Registered Magnums all over the place. Maybe I just need to move there.

In the mean time, Wayne Anthony Ross has all the good iron in this state and the rest of us have to make do with what we can afford.

rayman
January 13, 2011, 08:00 PM
That's cool Mr bragmardo. A gun is a gun to you as long as it shoots the way you want it to. One more thing brago, do you have a dude in europe who shoots like Jerry Miculek with a korth?

Shoot66
January 14, 2011, 04:21 AM
I, too, have to disagree with the equalization of Korth and status. I would say, that in Europe, Korth revolvers are primarily considered a sport tool. As it was already mentioned, it is not necessarily about snobbery but getting the best, one can afford, if performance matters.
At the same time, the price for guns can differ dramatically in different parts of the world. A mint Korth can be found for less than a half the price of a new Freedom Arms revolver, here. I paid 1300 € i.e. 1690 USD for a mint Colt Python (6`` Royal Blue) last August. Believe it or not, I considered it a reasonable price in local conditions.
I also tend to agree with bragmardo. The best place in Europe to look for quality second-hand guns is Germany (egun.de).

Zsnark
January 16, 2011, 07:38 PM
I have never seen a Korth in the flesh. I'm sure it's excellent. But, I am totally comfortable with my 30+ year old S&W M19 which I have target sights and trigger/hammer and which I had a trigger job done by a guy named Buzz who has long since disappeared from my radar. I also have a 30+ year old Python which, when I'm not indulging my auto pistol habit, is a joy to shoot; even with hot loads. I'd really like to run into a Korth and even put a box of .357 through it just ought of curiosity. But, my 19 is a tack driver with .38s, and my Python is pretty damn accurate as well. I am satisfied.

bragmardo
January 16, 2011, 08:06 PM
I concede that a shooter mainly relying on .38 Special loads would be equally well served by a S&W M19 or a Colt Python. Then again, unless I need to reach out and touch someone with the terminal ballistics of a .357 Magnum, I'd much rather employ a good service grade 9mm Para such as a SIG P49 or a Radom Vis wz35, than any revolver ever made.

Shoot66
January 17, 2011, 01:52 AM
Does P210 count, too?

bragmardo
January 17, 2011, 08:20 AM
Does P210 count, too?They might, depending on the vintage. Late production "sport" triggers tend southward of mediocrity.

dnovo
January 17, 2011, 08:41 AM
I have several P210s and am generally quite pleased with them. I have one that Wayne Novak rebuilt and customized some years ago that is just outstanding. A lesser known iteration of the P210 is the Hammerli P240, a pure target model that is a whole different animal. I have one in 32 SW Long and one in 38 Special. Both are designed to shoot wadcutters and are frightenly accurate and have actions and triggers that have to be experienced to be appreciated. They can very occasionally be found on the secondary market. Roco Systems in Texas and Larry's Guns in Maine usually have one or two for sale and sell parts and extra mags. Quality of construction is tops, and the match of any Korth I have handled. Dave

PzGren
January 17, 2011, 01:50 PM
Korth, great quality. I have not found a D/A revolver comparing to it, qualitywise.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/DSCF4403.jpg

K22, decent quality and is close to a rimfire Korth on the range - but not in D/A!!!

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/DSCI0059.jpg

P210-4 unbelievable quality!

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/KPS003.jpg


but there are 1911s out there that are as good...

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/DSCI0047.jpg

...or are they better? In .45 ACP? At the firing line, there is little difference, in a dark alley , when your life is on the line, there is. But then I'd rather forget those unpleasantries of life.

PzGren
January 17, 2011, 01:54 PM
.....A lesser known iteration of the P210 is the Hammerli P240, a pure target model that is a whole different animal. I have one in 32 SW Long ....

They are indeed formidable target pistols! I had the pleasure to shoot them and found them superbly accurate.

L-Frame
January 17, 2011, 02:40 PM
If you are curious about more details about a Korth Combat Revolver specifically, check out Gun-Tests magazine, the July 2002 issue. It gives many amazing details about this gun. They were pretty amazed by it. The overall quality, accuracy, and just about everything else. It takes 4 months to build, with 70% being by hand, and the steel has a Rockwell Scale hardness of 60. Very interesting read if you want to to to their web site and order the issue. They called it the "Ultimate conditional buy". They also said that it was the gun you expect to be be produced if cost was absolutely no object.

bragmardo
January 17, 2011, 03:12 PM
I have several dozen military P49 and commercial P210 pistols. Except for a P210-5LS bought for its unique balance, I wouldn't want to own one numbered above P309999 or thereabouts. The best of the breed were built between the mid-Sixties and the early Eighties. Very early guns are a little better finished, but not quite as durable. The late CNC production runs with MIM firing systems nave hit-and-miss triggers with no room for improvement. This is especially true of the guns fitted at the factory with a lateral magazine catch, which interferes with the trigger stop screw.

Confederate
January 17, 2011, 07:04 PM
The Korth is very much like a Sebenza knife. The Sebenza is hand fitted, has a titanium frame, a 3-inch S30V blade and costs as much as a good revolver. I have a CRKT S-2 that has a titanium frame that's every bit as good as a Sebenza's, a high quality 4-inchnATS-34 blade (which is nearly as good as an S30V), and it cost a fraction of what the Sebenza cost. (In fact, I got mine for $25, including shipping, which was an astounding price, but you can find good used ones for $100.)

Does the Sebenza cut better than other knives with S30V blades? No. Does it cut longer, or last longer? No. But it is hand fitted and comes with a nice pouch so your keys and change don't mar it.

As regarding the Korth, if those assembling them checked every chamber, making sure the throats were precisely .357, and ensuring that the barrel/cylinder gap was precisely .006 and the headspace precisely .005, and that each chamber was precisely aligned with the barrel and that each was tight. In other words, make each gun as close to another as possible.

If Korth can't do that, then it can't really capitalize on producing a hand-fitted gun. S&W clearly made their first 686s to go head-to-head with Colt's Python, and gun writers were able to demonstrate that repeatedly -- even independent magazines that weren't in the manufacturers' back pocket. I don't know about current 686s, but the first 686s were, I think, far superior to those made today. Actually, I'd like to see some side-by-side comparisons of Colt Pythons and current production 686s.

I think Rugers are more likely to shoot longer if not as accurately as the Korths.

bragmardo
January 17, 2011, 07:30 PM
As repeatedly recounted before, Korth revolvers are made of much stronger materials to much tighter tolerances than their mass produced counterparts. Instead of being cast, molded, or machined, their components are precision ground. Instead of being assembled from parts bins, they are individually hand fitted. This fitting includes control of critical dimensions to a degree impossible to maintain in mass production and ensures their precision fit lasting orders of magnitude longer. In so far as these facts have been demonstrated time and again in independent tests and testimonials, I question the point of sharing opinions that fail to take them into account.

PzGren
January 17, 2011, 11:30 PM
As regarding the Korth, if those assembling them checked every chamber, making sure the throats were precisely .357, and ensuring that the barrel/cylinder gap was precisely .006 and the headspace precisely .005, and that each chamber was precisely aligned with the barrel and that each was tight. In other words, make each gun as close to another as possible.

If Korth can't do that, then it can't really capitalize on producing a hand-fitted gun.

What exactly is your point here? Korth did produce the revolvers to the tightest of tolerances, I do not know how the quality is since they re-opened but I have had the pleasure to have visited the old Korth shop in Ratzeburg. Calling it a factory would be wrong, Wilson is a much, much larger operation.

Your comparison of a Ruger to a Korth in durability and accuracy is definitely not based on first hand experience, the differences in quality are too vast to describe and the trigger pull on a Korth, with the trigger on rollers, really does not compare to a Ruger D.A. revolver. Among American D.A. revolvers of the big makers, Ruger has the worst trigger pulls, that is based on my experience and the 4 Ruger D.A. revolvers that I still own.

We have a lot of opinions here but few are based on facts or qualified first hand experience.

JohnBT
January 18, 2011, 09:48 AM
"Does the Sebenza cut better than other knives with S30V blades? No. Does it cut longer, or last longer? No. But it is hand fitted and comes with a nice pouch so your keys and change don't mar it."

Wait a minute, neither one of my Sebenzas came with a pouch.

But it's okay, I use the pocket clip. If I can get the asphalt-aluminum roof coat and oil paint off the oldest one I'm going to send it back for a refinish and a good sharpening.

bragmardo
January 18, 2011, 11:26 AM
My Sebenza is overdue for return to Chris Reeve for having reached the limit of its frame lock travel. That sort of thing never happens to my Skirmishes.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs997.snc4/77090_773021985581_8205_40628471_3162902_n.jpg

DM~
January 18, 2011, 12:43 PM
Years ago i saw a test of a Korth in one of the gun rags, probably Guns N Ammo?? Anyway, they couldn't fire two cylinder loads double action in a row (rapid fire) without the cyl. binding up from too close of tolerances... Not what i want in a hunting gun, that will live in the bush with me for a week or three at a time!

From what "I" personally have seen, they aren't any better quality than the old S&W pre M-27's and early M-29's...

DM

bragmardo
January 18, 2011, 12:53 PM
Years ago i saw a test of a Korth in one of the gun rags, probably Guns N Ammo?? Anyway, they couldn't fire two cylinder loads double action in a row (rapid fire) without the cyl. binding up from too close of tolerances... Not what i want in a hunting gun, that will live in the bush with me for a week or three at a time!This media device is known as FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt). Late production Korth revolvers, including the one tested in the referenced review, have fully adjustable barrel to cylinder gaps, in the manner of Dan Wesson. In other words, they can be set to accommodate any degree of fouling without binding.From what "I" personally have seen, they aren't any better quality than the old S&W pre M-27's and early M-29's...What exactly have you seen personally, aside from ill-informed media accounts?

PzGren
January 18, 2011, 11:31 PM
From what "I" personally have seen, they aren't any better quality than the old S&W pre M-27's and early M-29's...

I would also like to know what exactly "you" have seen. Korths are rare and the few dealers that have one, will most likely not let you handle it enough to make a proper evaluation.

sw282
January 19, 2011, 12:55 AM
l have held a couple Korths in my time. They ARE a work of art. l read the account of the Korth vs the S&W Mod 28. l seriously doubt that thread. l personally had a friend who shot a 6'' M28 in IHMSA SILH for a couple of years. The way he tortured that revolver was insane. His favorite RAM load was a 200gr .358RNSP rifle bullets designed for 35Rem stuffed in 38spcl cases full of H110. He used the 38spcl case b/c the 357mag cases made load too long for the Smith's cyl. He shot it this way at matches before going to a 41 mag. l never heard him complain of the guns function. ln fact l examined it closely before he sold it to pay for his new Mod 57 41mag. lt seemed tight enough to me w/no issues. He had gotten it used from an ex hiway patrol. l must say l am no expert or a gunsmith. l will say tho his load was used by a guy w/a Python who shot w/us. After a time the Python began to have problems. timing l think.

Obviously, by my user id l am partial to Mod 28s. l love them more than than their fancy dress-daddy Mod27s. l sometimes shoot the ORIGINAL 357MAG load in it l found in a 1950 NRA handbook. lts pressure is 30k+. Not very often because it is loud and stings the hand a bit. l doubt there is a stronger 357 revolver around except maybe a FA 5 shot. Maybe Smith & Wesson could be talked into chambering one of their X frame 500s in 357 Mag.

bragmardo
January 19, 2011, 04:03 AM
The way he tortured that revolver was insane.This observation in no way undermines the study (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6998321&postcount=29) that found the Korth frame unaffected by loads that stretched the S&W M28 frame.

Shoot66
January 19, 2011, 04:32 AM
bragmardo, my P210 is from the post 309xxx production. A heavy frame target. The trigger is better than on my Colt Python. I have just this one, but I know a guy who has a nice collection starting from the P49. When I get to visit him, I will try to test mine in comparison to his pieces.

bragmardo
January 20, 2011, 05:11 AM
I own the P210-5 HF SN P315851. I also have four heavy forged frame P210-6 pistols. There is no comparison between their trigger actions; the earlier guns make the CNC piece feel mushy. I also have many Pythons ranging from the mid-Sixties blue steel through the mid-Nineties stainless pieces. It may be possible to compare the two-stage single action trigger pull of the P210 to the stacking double action of the Colt Python, but I wouldn't know how to compare it to the single-stage trigger pull of that revolver fired in single action.

Shoot66
January 22, 2011, 06:24 AM
Mine is 31720X. The slide is stamped 210-5 Target, the frame Heavy Frame. It is the shorter version though, known as no. 6. I failed to get an older one, as I was after a heavy frame and target sights.
My Python is a "V", produced in 1978.
I am not a gunsmith, nor I consider myself an expert. All I can offer is my subjective impressions. When I shoot them side by side (the CP in single action) I find the SIG`s trigger more pleasant.

PzGren
January 22, 2011, 11:26 AM
Shoot66,

my SIG P210 is a P210-4, I chose this for its history; they were made for the German Border Police and supposedly a few made it to the military. The serial number is D055x of 5,000.
My Python is an E764xx from 1974 and the Korth a 24/61x from 1969, the 24 series has already the rollers for the trigger and the most important updates - and was made when Willi himself insured quality.

I would love to know the year of manufacture for my rimfire Walther PP in .22 l.r. but all I could find out - even with the help of one of the curators of the Walther museum in Germany - is, that I have a very, very early rimfire pistol. About 80 years old and far from retirement!

Shoot66
January 22, 2011, 09:12 PM
PzGren,
Nice guns you have, Sir. I had a chance to handle one of the "D" series last summer. SN D2302. As you say, one of the BG Polizei contract. The person would not sell it. He offered an "A" to me instead, but it was from the mid-seventies (1974?). I was a little bit short and would have prefered a sixties piece at the same time, so I passed. Retrospectivelly, it might have been a mistake.

PzGren
January 22, 2011, 11:14 PM
Shoot66,

I have those guns in my "toolbox" after shooting for over 30 years and maybe one hundred handguns that came and went. The trigger of the Korth is only equally by my Hämmerli 212 Jägerschaftspistole. I used to compete with a Walther GSP and a Hämmerli 208 and those guns were boringly accurate but rather sportequipment than weapons.

Shoot66
January 23, 2011, 12:58 AM
Chapeau, or my respect, Sir. I am a beginner in comparison to you. I keep the Hämmerli 212 Jägerschaftspistole in my mind, just in case I run into one somewhere. I have heard a lot of good about them, but never had a chance to handle one.
I shot the GSP, have arrived at the same conclusion as you. Decided to focus on accurate service grade weapons. From the sport equipment department I`ve kept two more simple and rugged .22 LRs, though. The MCM or Baikal Margolin - my two older kids love them. The Korth Sport in .22LR would a special treat for my wife.

PzGren
January 23, 2011, 05:32 AM
Shoot66,

it is great that you involve your kids in our sport! I did with mine, hauled them to the gun shows, the gun range since kindergarden. My boys always liked it and are grown up now but they have a real love for guns and I am very proud of it; to have planted that seed and also make them good shots.

Both outshoot me now, my youngest son does so easily, but range time together is still something that is very precious to them - and especially me!

They are just as sentimental as I am...and a gun that is the lowest quality among my shooters; a beat up S&W 22A that we shot over 95,000 rounds through is very dear to my sons. They learned shooting with it.

dnovo
January 23, 2011, 08:47 AM
This thread has taken on a life and direction rather far afield from it's origins:

The trigger comparisons between a service revolver and a dedicated target semi auto are out there. Of course, the triggers on a Hammerli 212 , etc are rough compared to a free pistol of the older iteration and crude in view of my Hammerli FP 60 and especially my new Pardini free pistol with it's electronic trigger. Want perfect? Try one of the latest Pardini 22 semi auto 22s with either electronic or manual trigger. Then try a Korth or a Python and you will see what i mean.

A service revolver or semi auto cannot be fairly compared to something built especially for competition. Nor will my cherised Pardini 22 short electronic trigger paper puncher work as a self defense weapon. (Unless I put 5 rounds into his eye, and in one hole in a rapid string that sounds like one shot, which my baby can do, but I'd prefer something like a 44 Mag instead.)

Horses for courses folks. Can we wrap this up? Dave

Strykervet
February 23, 2011, 09:03 PM
Close this thread. I have my answer and it is going off topic.

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