Fitting new parts in remmington 1858


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jnewton2
January 12, 2011, 08:42 PM
I haven't ordered them yet but I've looked at the reviews and most people said the parts needed some fitting. Any suggestions on this so they won't wear themselves out? The more information the better.:)

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junkman_01
January 12, 2011, 09:05 PM
It depends on who made the gun and who made the parts. I ordered Pietta parts and the only part I could use in my PR Remmie was the trigger! The Pietta parts are larger and could not be made to fit.

jnewton2
January 12, 2011, 09:06 PM
Kind of like "tuning the pietta " on c and b essentials but for remington

BHP FAN
January 13, 2011, 11:24 AM
Pietta are made huge to be robust, and won't interchange with any other make, but Uberti parts will fit all other makes, usually with very little if any fitting.

jnewton2
January 13, 2011, 01:34 PM
It's a pietta and so are the parts.

denster
January 13, 2011, 01:50 PM
There are only two parts that you may have to fit. I assume this is in your cooked Pietta? That is the hand and the bolt. The other parts will be drop in.
Compare your new hand to the old one. You may need to shorten it a bit. The bolt will likely be a drop in but you won't know till you try it. You need to check the width of the bolt head compared to the cylinder notches and you may have to shorten the leg that rides on the cam of the hammer. Again checki it against the old one.

Oyeboten
January 13, 2011, 05:25 PM
Are we saying the actual Revolver is 'bigger' when a 'Pietta'?

jnewton2
January 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
Yes it's on my cooked pietta.:o The problem with checking against the old parts is that they were having problems before I broke the handspring. The knob/disc like thing on the right side (when shooting) of the hammer was worn almost halfway through when I took the gun apart to look at it .I took it apart because the bolt was catching on the cylinder indents and not letting it turn easily. It wasn't going down all the way. This time I know I had nothing to do with it.;) Thanks.

denster
January 13, 2011, 08:28 PM
The knob on the right side of the hammer is called the cam. It is not worn half way through. That bevel you see is to spring the leg of the bolt aside as the hammer falls. It is necessary for it to be that way. Not sure what you mean about the bolt catching in the cylinder notches. At what point in the cocking cycle is it doing this?

sltm1
January 13, 2011, 10:12 PM
Listen to Denster, anything I could say would be redundant. Just rebuilt a 92' Remmie w/ Cabelas parts.

sltm1
January 13, 2011, 10:15 PM
Something else, the bolt didn't retract because of :
1) The cam to bolt fit.
2) The combo trigger / hand spring was worn out.
Change the spring, hand, bolt and hammer....adjust as necessary.

sltm1
January 13, 2011, 10:17 PM
Damn, I've got a memory like a sieve!! Also, make sure the bolt fit's into the notches w/ some clearance.

jnewton2
January 14, 2011, 09:18 AM
The bolt was catching after each shot on the left side of the notch. It's turned up a very small bur there. Thank's everybody. I'll check all those things. Can't say much else because I still haven't ordered those parts.:mad::what: I'll do that today.

denster
January 14, 2011, 10:26 AM
That would indicate that the hand is picking up the the cylinder ratchet tooth before the bolt has fully cleared the cylinder. Essentially the hand is a few thousandths too long. This is not an unusual situation in a new pistol.
The cure is to remove a very small amount from the top surface of the hand.

SAA
January 14, 2011, 12:26 PM
jnewton2,
If, at the end of cocking the hammer, the bolt is snapping into the notch at the same time the trigger snaps into the sear, please do not shorten your hand as it is not the problem and you will end up with a gun that could end up out of battery when cocked.

If the bolt does snap into the cylinder notch at the same time as the trigger engages the sear, then either your hammer cam to bolt leg clearance is too wide, or your bolt head is too tall.......

Hammer cam to bolt leg clearance:
It is common, as you say yours is, for the hammer cam on some of the Italian imports to be soft enough to wear down on its upper surface, causing the bolt to lift too late to clear the cylinder notches. If this is the case, I would try a new bolt before replacing the hammer (assuming the cam itself is not replacable) to see if that solves the problem. A single action with no quarter cock needs no clearance between the cam and bolt leg, as long as the leg is able to snap back over the top of the cam when the hammer comes to rest.

Bolt head too tall:
If the bolt starts to move as soon as you start cocking the hammer, yet doesn't clear the cylinder notch, then the head of the bolt is too high and needs to be stoned down. Particular care to follow the contours must be taken. The bolt head should follow the contour of the bottoms of the cylinder notches, including the angle (It isn't cut at 90-degrees to the sides, as you will notice). Mechanically, though, if the bolt starts to move just as soon as you begin to cock the hammer, the bolt should be able to clear the notch unless the cylinder notches are unusually deep.

mykeal
January 14, 2011, 01:39 PM
This is contradictory and very confusing:
If the bolt starts to move as soon as you start cocking the hammer, yet doesn't clear the cylinder notch, then the head of the bolt is too high...Mechanically, though, if the bolt starts to move just as soon as you begin to cock the hammer, the bolt should be able to clear the notch unless the cylinder notches are unusually deep.
Which is it, bolt too tall or notches too deep?

assuming the cam itself is not replacable
When did Pietta start making the 1858 Remington New Army with a hammer that had a replaceable cam? I've never seen that.

It is common, as you say yours is, for the hammer cam on some of the Italian imports to be soft enough to wear down on its upper surface,
There was a period of time when Pietta's action parts were soft and prematurely wore out. However, those were the bolt, trigger sear, hand and springs. That was several years ago, and from what I've seen their products the last few years have not had the problem. I've never encountered a cam that was worn down enough to affect timing - in my experience it was always the bolt leg that was worn from being too soft. I'm not saying it can't or didn't happen, but I'm surprised to hear it was ever, and still is, common.

Please define "hammer cam to bolt leg clearance". I thought the bolt leg was supposed to ride on the side surface of the cam, directly in contact, rather than have some clearance.

SAA
January 14, 2011, 04:36 PM
Most of my experience is with the Single Action Army, and, but for a couple minor differences, the mechanics of the Remington are identical. They are simple mechanisms, though the parts have to work together to function properly. I was trying to keep it simple to avoid confusion. I know you are already knowledgable in this area, so let me answer the best I can. Wish me luck!

Please remember throughout that this is all under the assumption that the hand is the correct length...

Please define "hammer cam to bolt leg clearance". I thought the bolt leg was supposed to ride on the side surface of the cam, directly in contact, rather than have some clearance.

Sure.
The "hammer cam to bolt leg clearance" would be the clearance between the top of the cam (not the side) and the bottom of the bolt leg when the hammer is at rest. In a single action having no quarter "safety" notch, as in the Remington New Model Army, there does not have to be any clearance at all to satisfy the mechanics. But in the real world, in order for the bolt leg to snap back over the top of the cam consistently, there really does have to be some clearance, even if virtually immeasurable. The larger the clearance, though, the later the bolt will begin to pick up, and if too late could cause the bolt to catch the edge of the cylinder notch. This "clearance" could be too wide for one of five reasons that immediately come to mind:

1) The top of the hammer cam is worn.
2) The hammer cam is too small or out of position (not likely).
3) The bottom of the bolt leg is worn.
4) The limiting shelf at the front of the bolt is too high (if one is present).
5) The limiting shelf is low enough, but the head of the bolt is too tall for the cylinder notches.

This is contradictory and very confusing:

"If the bolt starts to move as soon as you start cocking the hammer, yet doesn't clear the cylinder notch, then the head of the bolt is too high...Mechanically, though, if the bolt starts to move just as soon as you begin to cock the hammer, the bolt should be able to clear the notch unless the cylinder notches are unusually deep."

Which is it, bolt too tall or notches too deep?

Both.

Remember, it is the position of the head of the bolt that determines where the leg of the bolt will be, and vice versa. The head of the bolt will be in its highest position when its leg drops back over the top of the cam.

When the bolt locks the cylinder, either the head of the bolt is bottomed out in the cylinder notch, or the limiting shelf is resting against the frame, rarely both. In either condition, if the bolt begins to move as soon as the hammer starts back, then the bolt/hammer cam clearance is essentially zero (Of course, it really can't literally be "zero"),and the bolt will achieve its maximum rise at the soonest point in the cycle possible. This rise must be sufficient for the bolt to clear the face of the cylinder just as soon as or before the hand begins rotating the cylinder, or the bolt will nick the edge of the cylinder notch. If the bolt is unable to clear the cylinder notch under these conditions, then the bolt head didn't move far enough in the time given. The bolt head may not have moved far enough for two reasons:

1) It moved too slowly.
2) It is too long (Or, "too high", depending how you want to describe the condition).

That's why I said "Mechanically, though, if the bolt starts to move just as soon as you begin to cock the hammer, the bolt should be able to clear the notch" (I should have previously underlined "should" for emphasis). Notice I said, "mechanically". If the cam is too close to the hammer's pivot center, for instance, then the bolt will move slower. Since this is never a problem, the only other cause would be due to the bolt head being too long.

If the bolt head is too long under the aforementioned conditions (correct hand length and bolt leg/cam clearance essentially zero), the top of the head must be higher in relation to the surface of the cylinder window in the frame. In order for the top of the head of the bolt to physically sit higher with the cylinder installed, the notches in the cylinder would have to be deep enough to accomodate. If the cylinder notches were not deep enough to accomodate the too-long-headed bolt, the leg of the bolt would not have been able to snap back over the top of the cam (again, under the given conditions). Normally, the bolt head is nearly bottomed in the cylinder notches. So, to accomodate a bolt with a head tall enough to be unable to clear the cylinder, the notches would have to be deeper than usual under the given conditions.


"assuming the cam itself is not replacable"

When did Pietta start making the 1858 Remington New Army with a hammer that had a replaceable cam? I've never seen that.

I wasn't sure about Pietta, and that is why I intentionally put the conditional statement here. Mine is an Uberti, and, yes, the cam is cast as part of the hammer.

"It is common, as you say yours is, for the hammer cam on some of the Italian imports to be soft enough to wear down on its upper surface,"

There was a period of time when Pietta's action parts were soft and prematurely wore out. However, those were the bolt, trigger sear, hand and springs. That was several years ago, and from what I've seen their products the last few years have not had the problem. I've never encountered a cam that was worn down enough to affect timing - in my experience it was always the bolt leg that was worn from being too soft. I'm not saying it can't or didn't happen, but I'm surprised to hear it was ever, and still is, common.

Of couse, both the cam and the bolt leg wear. Wear is cumulative, and while the bolt may wear and be replaced several times, the wear on the cam is getting worse and worse until eventually replacing the bolt will do no good. This would require a lot of usage before happening, but it could, and, I understand, has happened. Like you, I have heard it was the early Pietta parts that were accused of being relatively "soft". Since I know neither the vintage nor the manufacturer of each individual part in jnewton2's gun, I was trying to cover all the bases.

I hope this is sufficent to satisfy.

BHP FAN
January 14, 2011, 05:07 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414559

denster
January 14, 2011, 06:17 PM
SAA. Boy that was a lot of typing.
Still the OP's problem is the hand is too long. From PMs with the OP I know this is a near new gun and what the OP was refering to as wear on the cam is actually the bevel on the cam which to someone not familiar with the internal workings might appear as wear. I am also very familiar with Pietta Remingtons and Colts. I would say that eight out of ten new Piettas of both types that I've handled the hand picks up the ratchet and trys to rotate the cyilinder just a tad early and the top edge of the bolt ticks the notch in the cylinder. Generally removing .005 to .007 from the top left of the hand as viewed from the rear cures the problem and has no effect on full carry up.

SAA
January 14, 2011, 07:02 PM
O.K. If it's the hand, it's the hand. It's good of you to be helping him like that.

jnewton2
January 15, 2011, 08:34 PM
Thanks everybody. I've got to take it apart and look for this all to make sense. There isn't much reason to do that till the parts come though. Thanks I'll tell you how it turns out.:scrutiny:;):):):uhoh::cool:

Bluehawk
January 15, 2011, 09:15 PM
When you say the "top left of the hand"...can you show a pic to illustrate exactly where that would be?
On my new Piettas's there is usually a burr on the upper, forward tip of the hands which I always stone off when I get them so I'm curious as to where the actual work should be done to correct a hand problem.

denster
January 15, 2011, 10:31 PM
Bluehawk. The burr you mention is always on the top right. I stone that off also. The opposite edge is what first contacts the cylinder ratchet tooth. It is easiest to visualize by looking at the back of the cyinder. The hand picks up the tooth in the 240degree position. The left corner of the hand touches first then as the cyinder rotates the full surface then the top right corner on final carryup at 300 degrees.

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