Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn on the HK45


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HK-Freak
January 14, 2011, 04:18 PM
If you don't know who LAV and KH are, you're wrong.



Here's the whole transcript...

http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers



Here's a short excerpt...

Todd: How would you compare the HK45 to a top-quality custom 1911?

Ken: You’ve got a pistol one half or even one third the price of a top 1911 pistol today that is more reliable and every bit as accurate. For most anybody I can imagine if you said you need a pistol to stake your life on and you’re going to be someplace you can’t run to a pistolsmith every time you need it, if your choice is between an HK45 and a 1911 and you don’t take the HK45, you’re ****’ing brain dead.

Larry: Yeah, I agree 100%. Ken is spot on. For the average guy, it’s a far better choice. The 1911 is an enthusiast’s pistols. In order to keep that gun running you have to, it’s not optional, you have to become your own armorer to a degree. You have to be able to diagnose and fix minor problems on an end user level. If you’re not willing to sign up for that, frankly you have no business running a 1911 for anything other than occasional recreational shooting. If you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way with that gun and you’re not willing to sign up for that, then you need to avoid it. The HK45 is clearly the better choice. For the overwhelming number of people who feel like they need to have a .45 the only two real choices are the M&P45 and the HK45 and push come to shove if I’ve got to trust my life to one or the other, it would be the HK45.

We both are in agreement that if you had to go to Afghanistan for a year with just a handful of spare parts, what do you have confidence in getting the job done? The HK45. That would be my first choice. I think it is the most bomb-proof service pistol on the market. And we just saw SEAL Team Six go with the HK45 Compact for those reasons.

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harmon rabb
January 14, 2011, 04:28 PM
So they don't trust the Glock or XD? :boggled:

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 14, 2011, 04:36 PM
Don't you just love opinions?

EWO
January 14, 2011, 04:40 PM
Larry Vickers often recommends the Glock, but I am under the impression he prefers it in 9mm (He has his own Glock extended mag release through Tango Down). Also, Larry had a hand in the overall design of the HK45, and I believe this interview came from a recent 50,000 round torture test of the HK45 going at least 7000 rounds between cleanings.

HK-Freak
January 14, 2011, 04:43 PM
Don't you just love opinions?
From two of the most prestigious trainers in the industry? Yes I do.

1911austin
January 14, 2011, 04:46 PM
Don't you just love opinions?

When they are informed opinions. Which these are.

MikePaiN
January 14, 2011, 04:53 PM
What about the .45auto that invented the word reliability...??? The Sig P220 just happen to slip through the cracks in their minds....?

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 06:10 PM
Larry had a hand in the overall design of the HK45, and I believe this interview came from a recent 50,000 round torture test of the HK45 going at least 7000 rounds between cleanings.

Which makes him somewhat less than objective IMHO. As others have pointed out Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn both work for HK. They have a vested interest in recommending this pistol. It does not invalidate the fact that the HK45 is a good if not great pistol it is simply a fact that needs to be considered.

I think that their glowing recommendation also has to be taken within the context of the statement. They are couching their statements quiet a bit.

If you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way with that gun and you’re not willing to sign up for that, then you need to avoid it.

In the end the HK45 is a good if not great gun but there is no one size fits all pistols. I liked the HK45 I had. Sold it because I like 1911s better which in the end is the most important thing for me. :)

1KPerDay
January 14, 2011, 06:15 PM
Both of those guys work for HK if that means anything...

Zerodefect
January 14, 2011, 06:29 PM
Wow. I'll be keeping my 1911. Thanks anyway.

HK45 feels like an old fashioned DA/SA gun to me.
-bad SA pull when compared to 1911's.
-good DA pull, not as good as Kahr.
-fat
-harder to conceal than a 1911.
-feels good in my hand, nice fat grip and all.

I don't get it.....maybe I'm just biased against DA/SA guns? :rolleyes:

Now the P7 is a thing of beauty.

oasis618
January 14, 2011, 06:40 PM
And I'm sure Ronald McDonald prefers the Big Mac over the Whopper.

Red Cent
January 14, 2011, 06:59 PM
Vickers was SpecOps-Delta. Renowned 45/1911 gunsmith. One of the principal designers of the HK45. He knows of, therefore, what he speaks. But I will keep my National Match.

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 07:06 PM
Vickers was SpecOps-Delta. Renowned 45/1911 gunsmith. One of the principal designers of the HK45. He knows of, therefore, what he speaks. But I will keep my National Match.__________________

I do not think people are questioning Vicker's qualifications its his motives that might be in question.

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2011, 07:28 PM
Larry Vickers quoted from OP
The 1911 is an enthusiast’s pistols. In order to keep that gun running you have to, it’s not optional, you have to become your own armorer to a degree. You have to be able to diagnose and fix minor problems on an end user level. If you’re not willing to sign up for that, frankly you have no business running a 1911 for anything other than occasional recreational shooting. If you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way with that gun and you’re not willing to sign up for that, then you need to avoid it.

While I grew up with the 1911, after I really began to study the gun and it's abilities, I've come to agree with this. I've shot them as duty guns and for training and have found them to be jealous mistresses when it comes to attention. I still own them, but they are surely not the first I would pickup when answering the door (I actually pick up a S&W M-696)

I do agree that the two top choices in a .45ACP pistol for hard use are the M&P45 and the HK45...and this is from someone who last carried a Sig 220 as a duty gun and teaches with a Sig 220ST

jlmdlm
January 14, 2011, 07:29 PM
Curious if Larry has ties to Smith and Wesson as well since he brought up the M&P45.

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 07:34 PM
What do you define as "hard use" 9mmepiphany?

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2011, 07:40 PM
Just as a rule of thumb, 50-65K rounds a year...about what you would expect Spec Op or SWAT guys to use in practice, maybe serious USPSA competitors

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 07:43 PM
Just as a rule of thumb 50-65K rounds a year

Using that rough number what % of shooters/gun owners would you put in that category?

What % of "enthusiasts" would you put in that category.

I consider my self and enthusiasts but I am no where near that a year total round let alone through 1 gun.

Skylerbone
January 14, 2011, 08:18 PM
I've heard Vickers refer to the G17 as (to him) the worlds most perfect fighting pistol.

He understands his reputation and opinion (and their subsequent value) are scrutinized when he speaks. That he is not hocking Hi-Points or Rossis is what keeps people from thinking he's sold out.

While he may have assisted with R&D for the HK and while he also assisted in creating a beautiful 1911 presented to President Bush he left the smithing of his personal carry HK to one David Bowie of Bowie Tactical who favors the M&P. Go figure.

Sox
January 14, 2011, 08:29 PM
Ridiculous, isn't this same info like 3 or 4 years old? Sheesh!

HK-Freak
January 14, 2011, 08:32 PM
It's awesome how so many guys on THR know more than a guy who was in charge of product testing and acquisition for Delta Force, and a former Special Forces operator who is currently an FBI SWAT and HRT instructor. I also had no idea that people who consult gun manufacturers receive royalty checks for every gun they sell. :rolleyes:

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 08:33 PM
HK freak stop being a shill. Your bias is showing. We read your screen name you like HK we get it. You really are not improving your image by pandering to your favorite pistol maker.

PabloJ
January 14, 2011, 08:34 PM
The 1911 was designed ca. 1910 I would hope modern H&K would be just as accurate and more reliable weapon.:uhoh: I have held $1500 Les Baer and as anyone would expect in terms of fit and finish it was head and shoulders above H&K .45Auto.

Mitch from LA
January 14, 2011, 08:47 PM
It's awesome how so many guys on THR know more than a guy who was in charge of product testing and acquisition for Delta Force, and a former Special Forces operator who is currently an FBI SWAT and HRT instructor. I also had no idea that people who consult gun manufacturers receive royalty checks for every gun they sell. :rolleyes:
So, which one did you say you like better? You're being far too subtle for me to figure it out.

I'm a 1911 guy myself, but I can afford to be (what with the not rescuing hostages or putting 65,000 rounds down range/yr).

Different strokes for different folks.

BlayGlock
January 14, 2011, 08:59 PM
Yeah, I agree 100%. Ken is spot on. For the average guy, it’s a far better choice. The 1911 is an enthusiast’s pistols. In order to keep that gun running you have to, it’s not optional, you have to become your own armorer to a degree. You have to be able to diagnose and fix minor problems on an end user level. If you’re not willing to sign up for that, frankly you have no business running a 1911 for anything other than occasional recreational shooting.

I agree 100% and Im a 1911 fanboy who has several $2k 1911s. I also love the H&K 45. The only downside IMO is it is a little large to CCW but it can be done.

Also Larry Vickers builds custom 1911s when he has time that sell for several thousand dollars.

THIS IS MOST DEFINATLEY NOT A CASE OF SOMEONE JUST TRYING TO SELL THIER DESIGN.

PabloJ
January 14, 2011, 09:00 PM
All Delta, Special Forces,.....need is Glock with night sights and 6 magazines which I read they can buy for just over $300. I wish my government quit wasting our tax money on expensive hand toys for the military.

schmeky
January 14, 2011, 09:01 PM
It would be difficult to argue that the HK is not a fine defensive weapon.

DenaliPark
January 14, 2011, 09:06 PM
Well this HK45 was a POS, it was one of the worst firearms I can ever remember owning. Faulty fitting grip inserts(all of them)with easily seen gaps between inserts and frame that would rattle & shake. You could actually feel them moving about under recoil!

The trigger guard had a groove in it, which allowed the trigger to pull without contacting the guard, probablly an effort of some kind to mitigate trigger bounce or something, regardless it would pinch the ops trigger finger under recoil(hard), and was extremely distracting.(I had an idiot gamer on Glocktalk call me a pussy for bringing it to attention, he apparently felt it was a worthwhile distraction because he thought the pistol cool looking)

The magazine feed lips were not shaving sharp, but they were damn close, they certainly could be made to slice paper! The pistol was very difficult to take down for routine cleaning, requiring deft fingerwork. It was huge, particularly compared to a pistol such as the G30SF, which held the exact same amount of ammo, at literally half the size.

The worst aspect of the H&K45 however was not that it cost well over a grand with all of its glaring imperfections, nope, it was the H&K customer service! They had the pistol for months while they worked at rectifying the terrible slop between the frame and the grip inserts. They were awful, completely indifferent to the concept of "customer satisfaction!"

Of course only a fool would believe all H&K pistols were as bad as mine was, anybody can make and deliver to market, a lemon, I had a G21SF blow up in my hand, injuring me. However, Glock was wonderful, they immediately responded, and took care of everything, even when it became obvious that it wasn't their fault. I don't think H&K would have done a thing, at least not without the prompting of an attorney, and that makes the defective product that sneaks by to market decidedly worse!

Skylerbone
January 14, 2011, 09:08 PM
If I were Larry I would buy two M&Ps and leave the spare parts at home, same money and less hassle.

HK-Freak
January 14, 2011, 09:27 PM
HK freak stop being a shill. Your bias is showing. We read your screen name you like HK we get it. You really are not improving your image by pandering to your favorite pistol maker.
I'm not defending HK. I just thought it was an interesting interview and I posted it here. don't even own an HK45. I'm just amazed that anyone would question these two people's "motives" as you put it.

rellascout
January 14, 2011, 09:45 PM
I'm not defending HK. I just thought it was an interesting interview and I posted it here. don't even own an HK45. I'm just amazed that anyone would question these two people's "motives" as you put it.

Why wouldn't you question their motives? They make money from selling guns, training, parts etc... So you have to weight that against any comments they make.

Both of these individuals profited from the development of the HK45. I would be shocked if they as a result they did not endorse it. Again that does not mean the the HK45 is not a good gun. I owned one and that was my impression of it. It shot well but simply too big for me to ever carry and did not fit my hand as well as other guns I owned.

I think the part that people are missing is that less than .01% of shooters are going to shoot more than 10K rounds out of their pistol in a year. If they do most of those rounds are not going to be shot in harsh conditions. They are saying if you are going into harsh conditions and need a low maintenance pistol because you will not be able to service it they would choose the HK45. This is the context of their statement. At least thats how I read it.

I shoot a lot. I carry a gun most days. I consider myself a pistol enthusiast but I am not going to shoot 10K out of one of my pistols in a year. I do not fall within the parameters they used to make the recommendation that they made. 1911's do not require a lot more maintenance than other guns. You do need to understand how they operate a bit more than other designs in order to keep them 100% but it is not a huge burden. IMHO.

HKGuns
January 14, 2011, 10:01 PM
Hey, I've got HK in my screen name too, but I'm not a freak! Lighten up guys, its a pistol. A very good pistol, but still a pistol. It goes bang, like it should, when you pull the trigger.

I own the USP45C and I don't find it anywhere near brick like. Don't really see a reason to move into the HK45 from the USP.

45auto
January 15, 2011, 08:50 AM
It would have been good if H&K was interested in a "redesign" of the 1911 and what they would have come up, with direction, from Vickers and Hackathorn.

I'd like to see another company take a "shot" at it. The 1911 needs some design changes while maintaining the "virtues".

If JMB were alive, he probably would have had many revisions by now...many!!

JohnBT
January 15, 2011, 11:22 AM
"We both are in agreement that if you had to go to Afghanistan..."

I'm not. I don't think the airline would let me take a gun on the plane anyway.

rellascout
January 15, 2011, 11:23 AM
"We both are in agreement that if you had to go to Afghanistan..."

I'm not. I don't think the airline would let me take a gun on the plane anyway.

LOL

9mmepiphany
January 15, 2011, 11:45 AM
It would have been good if H&K was interested in a "redesign" of the 1911 and what they would have come up, with direction, from Vickers and Hackathorn.
They did that already...it was part of an article introducing the HK45...and found the price they would have to sell it at too daunting to justify production.

That is how they turned their attention to optimizing the USP 45 into the HK45...besides the looming military contract competition

Viper
January 15, 2011, 01:07 PM
I have three 1911's - RI FS, SIG 4.25 in, and SA 3.5 in. None have ever failed and I do carry the smaller ones occasionally. I also have a 14 year old P220 and HK c 45, and again no problems with either. Both are beautiful, well built pistols, but the SIG is a bit large. That said, my favorite carry pistol is an M&P c 45 because it shoots so well, has been perfect for 2000 rounds, and fits me better than the others.

fastbolt
January 15, 2011, 01:45 PM
I don't see how folks could take issue with these gentlemen discussing their opinions. They're certainly entitled to discuss their opinions and experiences. Their experience and knowledge ought to earn them some respect. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

I've always thought HK engineered and manufactured good quality firearms. I carried a P9S45 I found to be a decently accurate pistol, but eventually decided not to keep it because of the difficulty in getting parts back then, a typical spongy HK trigger and the lack of a selection of holsters. That P9S had some nicely contrasting and highly visible sights, though.

If I were a HK armorer I'd probably pick up a HK45c and wring it out. I'm not, though.

HK is one of the companies for which I haven't attended an armorer class ... and I've found the M&P 45 to serve my needs quite well in offering me a reliable and seemingly quite durable alternative to my 1911's, 3rd gen S&W .45's and my early production Ruger KP90DC.

I'm considering ordering another M&P 45, a compact this time, as well as another 1911 (or 2 ;) ) ...

Different strokes.

meytind
January 15, 2011, 08:46 PM
You guys do know that neither Larry nor Ken work for HK? Nor do they receive royalty checks for every pistol sold. All they got from HK was the credit for the design.

Skylerbone
January 15, 2011, 11:23 PM
Meytind, how are you privy to that info? Are you saying they donated their time? Again, sources please.

Questioning motive in this case is like wondering what Johnny Appleseed's favorite fruit might be. It does not imply a dislike for the product, rather it places an asterisk next to the opinion.

meytind
January 15, 2011, 11:35 PM
I know they don't work for HK because if they did, they would have the info on their websites. Them not getting royalties comes from Todd Green's responses in the comments section of his interview with them.

Having Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers design your handgun is like having Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt design your race car. Is it really that surprising to hear that two of the most knowledgeable and experienced guys in the field think that when their input was taken in the design of a .45 service pistol, that it would be the best in its niche?

If Tiger Woods helped design a golf club to his specifications, do you think people would be jumping down his throat when he said it was probably the best golf club ever?

murfdog
January 15, 2011, 11:52 PM
I have a H&K USPcompact .45 it is the best gun I have owned Just my 2 cents


Murfdog

1KPerDay
January 16, 2011, 12:13 AM
I know they don't work for HK because if they did, they would have the info on their websites. Them not getting royalties comes from Todd Green's responses in the comments section of his interview with them.

Having Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers design your handgun is like having Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt design your race car. Is it really that surprising to hear that two of the most knowledgeable and experienced guys in the field think that when their input was taken in the design of a .45 service pistol, that it would be the best in its niche?

If Tiger Woods helped design a golf club to his specifications, do you think people would be jumping down his throat when he said it was probably the best golf club ever?
Do you really think any of those guys would do that work for free? You consult with a company, they pay you... you're working for them. Larry mentioned working for HK and training people on the G36 on his tactical arms show also.

SIGLBER
January 16, 2011, 01:12 AM
I've got an HK USP 45c stainless. I traded a Kimber that couldn't be made to work for it even up. It is one of th finest pistols I own. It is super accurate, always shoots, fits my hand well, and is not hard to ccw. I can carry it cocked and locked or DA/SA. The DA/SA is not as good as my SIG 220. But after a few hundred rounds it's very good. The SA pull breaks exactly at 4lbs. and smoothly. It's is a quality product. The only down side is magazines for it are about $50.00 a piece. I picked a couple up at a gun show a couple of years ago for $30.00 new. Should have bought more.
But I will say this. For whatever a civilian might run into I don't see it as any more capable than my G30. I won't sell my HK. I love it. But I can take my G30 anywhere and bang the hell out of it (not trying to but hiking can be hard on a gun) and not worry about damaging an expensive gun. You just can't hurt a Glock. My G30 is going nowhere either.

CowboyGSP
January 16, 2011, 01:44 AM
I'm always amazed by the internet commando responses to articles like these. Most of them boil down to 1. didn't read it 2. didn't understand it or 3. don't know any better.

O.P. --- Thanks for sharing/posting.

The article is actually an interesting read into the development cycle of that pistol as well as a pretty candid review of the final product and their perceived short comings with it.

The fact they compare it favorably to a 1911 at the end apparently has some of your commando panties in a twist, which says more about you than them. Keep yelling at the wind though...LoL.

Skylerbone
January 16, 2011, 01:50 AM
I know Tiger wouldn't declare it a miserable failure. I'm not looking to argue with the opinions of the gentlemen in question, quite frankly I'm ill prepared. As I stated before their opinions are what they live by and I'm sure they feel confident in the HK. But to claim to best JMB's design invites scrutiny and for the designers to toot their own horns to say as much even more so.

CowboyGSP
January 16, 2011, 02:03 AM
Not to be flip but did you actually read the article?

The first time Ken speaks he addresses 1. the problem they were attempting to fix 2. that Larry was still serving our country at the time and 3. they come to the conclusion that asking HK to produce a 1911 wasn't going to work.

Here's the quote with those 3 points in bold to make it easy...

"November of 2001 is when we went over to Oberndorf (HK Germany). (2)Larry was still in [SFOD-Delta] and (1) the price and maintenance of a custom 1911 was becoming a problem for the unit from a logistics standpoint. (3a)Could HK produce a 1911 of the quality that you could buy off the shelf? We knew if anyone in the world could do it quality-wise it was HK. And to be honest we presented some pretty nifty ideas to them.

At the same time, HK was phasing out production of the P7 which used a forged frame. So they had the forge capability to make a 1911.

As it turned out, within months SIG came out with a 1911, Smith came out with a 1911, and (3b)we kind of went, “This isn’t going to work.”"


Within the very first lines of the article most of the angst thrown at the wall in this thread is answered. In my best ESPN voice - Come on man!

PabloJ
January 16, 2011, 04:53 AM
I would think Ruger P90 would cut down on logistic problems as they almost never break down. I used to own H&K but that was when I wore shirts with little pony rider and New Balance shoes.......I'm pass that stage now. H&K is to Snap-on what Glock is to Craftsman......?

mes228
January 16, 2011, 07:56 AM
I've owned 3 H&K's and found them nothing special at all. One of them had the highly touted LEM trigger mentioned in the article. I grew to hate the pistol and still consider it one the worst semi-auto's I've owned. To me it was nothing but a big double-action only revolver. Not very accurate either, the lowly Ruger 345 shot rings around it. Perhaps desert combat has different criteria and needs, than the way I use and carry a pistol in Virginia. I did like the capacity though and may eventually buy another. Just to see how my friend and I both could be so "wrong" in evaluating the pistol. At least according to these knowlegable and highly respected men. I like the 1911 platform and have several, the major draw back is capacity. H&K and the FN both solve that problem.

LongRangeInternational
January 16, 2011, 08:05 AM
You will? Based on what data? Why don't you ante up and go to SHOT and talk to Vickers about how you perceive his bias?

For those of us that have ACTUALLY trained with either of these gentleman, the accusation of bias are laughable. However, error net conjecture still abounds.

vaherder
January 16, 2011, 08:09 AM
Larry was in the USA when the HK45 was designed. I serious doubt he received anything from H&K. Army CID, IG and DCIS would have had a field day if he did. Even getting a price break from H&K would have seen Larry awarded a CM under the UCMJ. Leavenworth is not a great duty assignment.

When I was in the USN and assigned to Pentagon, NSC, or the WH I was required to fill out a form each year listing my investments ie stocks owned etc.

Look at what happened to another special forces guy when the admiral in charge of NCIS at the time and also a SEAL went on a personal vendetta.

I hate 1911s. If I had to go into combat or a bad situation and needed a handgun in 45acp the HK45 would be the gun.

VA herder

Double Naught Spy
January 16, 2011, 11:40 AM
For those of us that have ACTUALLY trained with either of these gentleman, the accusation of bias are laughable.

Okay, I trained with Hackathorn. He most definitely has product biases based on who is sponsoring him or paying him at the time to promote their products. His view on laser sights changed significantly after getting on board with Crimson Trace. At the time, he was gungho on Wilson Combat 1911s and magazines as well.

Of course the article is biased by the opinions. Both guys were involved in the design of the pistol and have their names associated with it. They aren't going to speak poorly of it. It is sort of like expecting an unbiased opinion of a child by the child's parents. It isn't going to happen.

I would be much more impressed with the opinions of Vickers or Hackathorn if their reviews were actually independent reviews of the product, one they didn't help develop, and not from a company that is putting money in their wallets. Of course now, they aren't likely to ever rate another pistol better than the HK45, even if it is, because they are so closely tied tothe HK45 by reputation and $$.

Something else to keep in mind is that their biases are part of who they are. They wanted certain features on the gun that fit their perceptions of what was and was not important. That is bias.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with Zerofefect's summary of the HK45.

HKGuns
January 16, 2011, 11:44 AM
I've owned 3 H&K's and found them nothing special at all.

Each to his own.

One of them had the highly touted LEM trigger mentioned in the article. I grew to hate the pistol and still consider it one the worst semi-auto's I've owned.

The LEM trigger is DAO, so if you don't like DAO, you're not going to like LEM, it was produced because it is a requirement for some Federal agencies and some people like them. Mainly revolver shooters I would suspect.

To me it was nothing but a big double-action only revolver.

The fact that this is surprising to you creates doubt about your level of experience. That is exactly what it was designed to be. You apparently own several SA 1911's. Did you even read what the LEM trigger was before purchasing? DA/SA is probably the variant you should have purchased, or you could have changed your LEM for another type very easily. HK's pistols all have numerous operating variants and you can change them to suit your requirements.

Not very accurate either, the lowly Ruger 345 shot rings around it.

HK's are known to be very accurate pistols. Everyone makes the odd lemon once in a while, however, as a rule HK makes fewer lemons. Again, your level of experience is coming into question here.

H&K and the FN both solve that problem.

There are far more high capacity polymer based pistols than just HK and FN.

Skylerbone
January 16, 2011, 12:13 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, we are all biased whether by experience or ignorance or stupidity (there is a not so subtle difference). It seems suggesting that Larry Vickers is in fact human has people up in arms. I've yet to train with him or Jim or use any of their products as is the case with most shooters. That may make us ignorant of their preferred techniques and gear but does not disqualify us as stupid or otherwise uninformed.

Let he who has fired every model pistol manufactured and dissected their strengths and faults cast the next stone. I would be to own an HK but it may not be in my future. I would own a number of Glocks were it not for the M&P fitting me better and my comfort level with modifying it. That does not dismiss those firearms in my mind as something inferior, merely as choices better suited to other people.

The size of my hands and wallet tend to choose my pistols for me. As was stated in the article if the M&P is perhaps as good then I'd buy 2 for the price of 1 HK. If you don't know 1 is none and 2 is 1 then "you're wrong". How's that for bias?

xXxplosive
January 16, 2011, 12:29 PM
And how many interviews and TV clips where LV states that the only pistol he would ever take into battle was a 1911.
He was responsible for designing a 1911 for Spec. Ops. Teams by combining parts from Springfield and othe firms to make the best available for them.

Personally, I'm tired of the "Experts" telling us what they're paid to tell us and not what they truly believe...

9mmepiphany
January 16, 2011, 02:39 PM
I would request that we tone down the bickering in this thread...although i do feel that it's usefulness is quickly coming to an end.

Any last comments?...make them soon

memphisjim
January 16, 2011, 02:52 PM
did he just indorse the pistols from the 2 companies that spend the most on r&d? and advertising?

HKGuns
January 16, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'm done.

fastbolt
January 16, 2011, 03:16 PM
If we're considering excluding people from giving personal opinions because of the potential for personal bias ... what would that do when it comes to opinions posted by everyone who frequents internet firearm forums? :uhoh:

Extend the gentlemen the courtesy of being able to state their opinions.

Examine and consider their opinions as you will ... or ignore them as you will, for whatever reasons you may feel are appropriate from your own perspective.

If this limits the amount of new and potentially valuable information you may be exposed to? Oh well. It's your business ...

I certainly may not agree with the opinions of other folks, from lay person to experienced, knowledgeable and authoritative source, but if you don't listen you may miss the opportunity to learn something.

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