WI gunowners: a rant


December 29, 2003, 07:33 PM
This is just a thread to vent a bit. AndrewWalkowiak, mpthole, Hunter Rose and others may soon chime in with their own comments.

For two (or is it three?) years now, we've been doing the gun show circuit, getting people to call or write their legislators on the CCW bill. The past three months have been really intense, with multiple shows going on over the same weekends. Volunteers are starting to get burned out.


The sheer idiocy. It's staggering. It's beyond belief. In fact, I'm absolutely amazed that some people can somehow make it through life without harming themselves.


1. We're trying to get people to address postcards to their legislators. Do you have any idea how many people have no idea how to address a postcard or envelope? When I drop off the cards at the post office, I give the stack a cursory look to see which legislators are going to get the most. Invariably, a good number of people addressed cards to themselves. I mail them anyway. Right now they're probably still wondering who's forging their handwriting and sending them suspicious mail.

2. This point is sad: the number of people who can't read or write. That shouldn't be part of a "rant" thread, but I'm astounded by how many completely illiterate people are out there. Actually, I'm amazed that perhaps 25% or more of the people we encounter can't spell the word "concealed."

3. The laziness is incredible. It takes just two minutes to address a postcard, yet people will use any excuse not to. "Oh, I already do all of that." All of what? "Write letters and all." To whom? "The President, Senator Kohl, all those guys." This is state, not federal. "Naw, I already do all that." I've had people spend ten minutes telling me why they can't take time to address a postcard.

4. This past weekend I had a couple of guys in their early twenties at the table, trying to get them to address a postcard. One was very reluctant. "Won't we get on some kind of list?" he asked. I told him that he was on a list if his name was in the phonebook, at least when it comes to politicians. He was scared to contact his legislator. I tried to find out if he voted, but he was too paranoid to tell me.

5. Had a guy tell me that we don't need permits, that's what the 2nd Amendment is for. Fine, I said, but we're talking reality, and the reality is permits first, Vermont-style later. Then he expressed some reservations about permits. What about people with short tempers, or those who are drunk, he asked. I told him that he was contradicting himself, a point that escaped him.

6. The deer hunters. Need I say more? Someday there's going to be legislation that affects only hunters, and I'm going to sit back and laugh my skinny white butt off watching them try to organize against it.

7. The crazies. You know them right off the bat when you see them. You can tell by the look in their eyes or something unusual about the way they dress. And they'll jawbone you for an hour about the most ridiculous conspiracies--which, of course, they have absolute proof of--but then won't address a postcard.

8. The cheapskates. We tell people there's no obligation to contribute, but the postcards, literature and table cost us a lot of money. They look at the 25-cent postcard and throw in exactly 25 cents. Well, at least they addressed a card...

9. The LEO's. This isn't meant to bash cops, but my blood boils when somebody at a show says, "I already got my permit," and shows me his badge. Don't they care about their wives?

10. The I-don't-need-one, so-neither-do-you crowd. If anyone wonders how the '94 Black Rifle ban got passed, just talk to these folks.

Winston Churchill had it right when he said that the best argument against democracy was a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Ok, I feel better now. ;)

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Jeff White
December 29, 2003, 08:28 PM
If we could get 10% of the population to care about anything more then whatever their immediate (and I mean right that minute) goal was we would live in a different world. No one will care until it affects them directly. By then it's usually too late....


PS hang in there my friend...if it wasn't for guys like you I wouldn't be able to point to all the surrounding states when we start the fight in earnest down here.

December 29, 2003, 08:55 PM
I feel for you, but keep on keeping on, ok? You're doing a good thing. :)

December 29, 2003, 08:59 PM
On #7, The Crazies.....

Had a guy trying to bend my ear for a half hour at the Oshkosh show.

Planet X is coming back.......

Tin foil hat time!!


Standing Wolf
December 29, 2003, 09:20 PM

I hope you'll keep up the good work, aggravating though I'm sure it is.

December 29, 2003, 09:43 PM

Thanks for your hard work. I notified my legislators, and my rep and senator are co sponsors.

Gun show? I gotta get me to one of them and buy all those cheap guns that don't have any paperwork :rolleyes: , tax :rolleyes: or problems.

I am going to call them again next month to see what is going on.

Remember, you aren't doing this to get rich, take power, or get elected.
This job is it's own reward. RIGHT?

Take a deep breath. Deer hunters never have, and probably never will agree as one group. Neither will Farmers, Automobile Drivers, or Doctors.
It would be a pretty dull world if everyone agreed, now wouldn't it?

Take two cases of ammo to the range and be ready to try again next weekend!


December 29, 2003, 10:02 PM
Hang in there, Monkeyleg. You're fighting the good fight. One man such as yourself has the political power of a hundred, nay, a thousand, of the common folk. As I tell my similarly frustrated friend:

"Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public."

I can see now why some people believe the best form of govenment is a benevolent dictatorship...

AJ Dual
December 29, 2003, 11:03 PM

(Shaking head sadly)Dick... Dick...

Please don't give "them" numbers...

The next time I help out at a show, the poor schmuck is going to have no idea why I'm throttling him and screaming, "Arrrgh! You're a 'number 3'! I hate number 3's!"

There was one elderly fellow at the last Waukesha show who was farsighted, had back trouble and arthritis, and was obviously in some discomfort leaning over the table to fill out the card, but he did it.

I wanted to grab each and every person who was "for CCW" in WI, but too lazy and shirking when it was time to fill out a card, and drag them back to the table to watch that old man fill out a card.

Although, on a bright note, the Waukesha show was the best I've ever worked, especially considering that so many of them had seen us before by then.

Zak Smith
December 29, 2003, 11:24 PM
I am an ex-Wisconsonite. After finishing school 5 years ago, I moved out to Colorado -- we've had CCW there for years, and just in 2003 passed both robust open-carry and statewide shall-issue CCW laws. Good gun shops abound, there are more IPSC, IDPA, 3Gun, and other matches per month than one person can shoot, and I can buy reloading supplies in bulk at good prices at the local Sportsmans' Warehouse.

For the last week I've been visiting relatives in southern WI. In short, the climate here makes me sad. I heard one otherwise reasonable person say, in regard to CCW, "But I don't want poor people to be carrying guns around." and "I don't have any reason to carry a gun."

What is up with the midwest?


December 29, 2003, 11:27 PM
If it makes you feel any better I have been meaning to email you to say that I would love to help out for the whole day on Sat.

I worked the MN CCRN booth a few weeks ago, I know exactly how you feel. The worst are the guys with all the conspiracy theories. I had one guy go on about the NWO for 20 minutes!!!! Made me pissed. All I wanted to do was send him on his way with our newsletter.

December 29, 2003, 11:55 PM
Dick - I've met the same types at shows and at the range. Its frustrating to say the least. :banghead: What especially amazed me once was a guy ranting about how the "evil" Jews were the ones really in control of the world and how they would bring about the NWO - and this was at a gun range with LOTS of loaded weapons around. I got away from that looney ASAP. :scrutiny:

We just have to keep fighting the good fight. Keep on, keepin' on as they say. ;)

Hope to see you Saturday. We'll get concealed carry yet! :cool:

Standing Wolf
December 29, 2003, 11:55 PM
Do you have any idea how many people have no idea how to address a postcard or envelope?

<wink> Isn't that what the internet is for? </wink>

December 30, 2003, 01:31 AM
Zak Smith: "finishing school?"

My wife went to "finishing school" back in the late 60's. It didn't make her more beautiful than she already was (hard to improve on perfection), nor did it make her any more or less poised. But she can still do a cake-walk with a book balanced on her head. :)

This state is so schizophrenic that it's impossible to describe. We elected a fairly conservative governor four times in a row, but voted for probably the most liberal and anti-constitution US senator--Russ Feingold--twice.

In terms of percentage of gun owners who are NRA members, Wisconsin is among the highest. Most states can only boast one out of every 20 gunowners as NRA members. Here, it's one out of every seven.

But, still, one has to be in shock at the people you encounter. From apathy to ignorance, it's a real eye-opener. And I don't mean to trash-talk some people. It's just been a real education.

Example: last year I had a guy all set to address a postcard. I told him to put his name and return address in the upper left-hand corner of the card. "I don't remember my address." Ok, he must have moved recently. I asked him to point to a region on the map where he lived. "Don't know." Um, alright sir, do you happen to have your wallet with you? "Sure do." Would you mind taking it out? He did. I asked him if he would show me his drivers license, and he did. I said, "is this your address?" He was absolutely surprised. "Well, ****, that's it!" :banghead:

We have a governor who, during the previous twelve years while attorney general, advocated everything from handgun bans to bans on shotguns. He embraced every looney-toon idea that came out of Sarah Brady's mouth. Yet, when it came time for him to run as a candidate for governor, he managed to convince the union guys that he was for the "rights of hunters and sportsmen."

Here you've got an AG who advocated banning shotguns, ammo, handguns, primers, powder, Black Rifles, Brown Rifles---you name it--and he gets the unions' nods. Twelve years of advocating the most extreme anti-gun measures, and the union guys vote him in. And, when you talk to these guys at the gun shows, they say "oh, Doyle, der hey. He ain't so bad."

Yeah, and Lester Maddox had a nice restaurant. Unless you were black. Or you liked baseball bats applied to the heads of blacks.

I could go on and on about the weird people that we meet at the gun shows, but I'm more concerned about the volunteers. Two months ago we had to turn down volunteers; we had too many. At some point the tables become too congested and the show attendees couldn't get to the table.

Now we're in the absolute final stretch of a ten-year fight, and we're looking at 50-50 odds (or better) of winning, and the volunteers aren't coming forth. It's ridiculous that folks who, just three months ago, were willing to go b*** to the wall for this effort, but in the final stretch are shrinking from the effort.

It's incredible that people who sincerely believed we could win would now give up because the newspapers say the effort will fail. The newspapers don't have any more inside info than I do. In fact, I have more info, and the papers are absolutely wrong.

I'm going to stop ranting now, and issue another call to arms: stand up for your rights, take a few hours to volunteer, show Jim "Bingo" Doyle that he doesn't run this state, and preserve your status as a citizen. It only requires maybe three to four hours, and the work isn't hard. In fact, the job is much easier than the "call to arms" issued 227 years ago.

December 30, 2003, 03:26 AM
To all you guys in WI looking for the help:
My older sister just married a guy who lives in Wausaw (sp?) and, surprise, she lives there now as well. She and her new hubby are both pro gun and the hubby has an enormous family. If you are going to do a show anywhere near Wausaw (again sp?), PM me and I'll put you in touch. He does pretty well in his business and might also be able to put some corporate lobby power in the right places.


Raven Jeff 2003
December 30, 2003, 09:50 AM

I agree and sympathize with many of your points. During one of the gun shows I worked I was approached by a man. When I asked him to please fill out a postcard he replied : "There are too many nuts out there already with guns". I must admit I was shocked and disgusted. He obviously felt HE was ok to carry a gun but nobody else was. I tried to engage him in a rational conversation without success. He left the booth and I fumed.

Then I remembered the young woman (Susan?) who testified during the public hearing about how she and later her sister were raped and the assailiants never caught. I thought about my own family and I realized I am supporting it for them. No mush brained idiot is ever going to get me to slow down my support of this measure.

For every thumb-shucking nimrod there are 100 Susan's. Kept that in mind as we press on to victory.

Warmest regards to you and your family.


December 30, 2003, 10:12 AM
I have gone to several shows in the state in where i live, trying to pick up some bargins on reloading materials and other related stuff.

From what i've seen some of the vendors fall into the above lists, there are those whose firearm experiance & knowledge is extensive.

Sadly though, most of what Monkeyleg is true. I had a friend of mine tell me he would never go to a gun show again after attending and seeing waaaaay to many weird folks in his mind.

I guess the cream don't rise to the top on certain occasions....;)

I mind my own buiness at gun shows & folks leave me alone.. of course i'm 6'7 and 265 lbs..:neener:

Monkeyleg, if you ever get down in the southwestern corner of WI let me know i'd be glad to give you a hand.


December 30, 2003, 11:16 AM
Second only to gun dealers (with some exceptions such as the few that care)

If you here an activist make a statement like that you can be assured that they have been through the trenches and you Dick seem to understand this well. I've become increasingly intolerant of this kind of stupidity. Hell I have no problem telling apathetic gun owners how dumb they really are. Its amazing how a 6 foot 5 guy dressed in fatigues walking around a gun show with a shotgun he's selling will tuck tail and run when challenged.

Gun owners (in general) aren't too intelligent and try to hide behind the guns that the government will just come and peacefully take from them in the future.

It is up to you, me and the people like us that do care to bear their burden in this and fight on. Keep doing the shows and don't be affraid to challenge those walking by.

Also don't offer help to those that don't help you. All to often activists get calls for help from those that have been gun owners for years yet won't even join the NRA. These people belong in prison. Don't do anything to try and keep them out. They ask you a question ask if they are a member. But remember to be as helpful as possible to the Newbees.

Keep up the fight and never be discouraged. WI seems like one of those states where things are changing. Even Feingold said that he does not necessarily support renewal of the AW Ban.

Zak Smith
December 30, 2003, 11:26 AM

I meant finished my University education (UW-Madison), natch. My brother who came through 5 years later ran the pro-firearms group on campus, which is now run by Anthony Hamilton.

If CCW does get passed, I think it might sympathetically help gun store quality, but that might just be wishful thinking.


December 30, 2003, 11:51 AM
Rant on............................................................................


We have been trying in New Jersey to get our organization (www.njcsd.org) off and running but the main problem is that people would rather complain than participate. We started off with everybody full of piss and vinager and had a great staff lined up ready to conquer the world. Had and still have a website set up for communications and even had a place for us to hold meetings that cost us next to nothing (of course it was too far from "everybody" even though it is close to the center of the state). Even had a range that we could use for fundraising that also cost next to nothing (held one fund raiser that the majority of people did not show up to). Regardless, all seemed to be going good, then a funny thing happened. The staff/volunteers found out that they had to actually work and keep obligations/promises made to make it happen! One by one they droped off. The term Sunshine patriots comes to mind.

One left because things were not going their way.

One just dropped of the face of the earth even though they talked a good game.

One left because their life was too busy.

One left because of running for office and did not want to have it as an issue.

One left because children were now in the picture and the time was not there even though there was time to run their own website to complain on.

etc., etc., etc.

Now, a good portion of them are high tailing it to gun friendly states. They would rather run then draw a line and stand and fight. Its easier to move your family you see!

I have not named names of the guilty parties out of my respect to them for even initially standing up and trying to help BUT I am pissed at all of them for turning their back and walking away from an organization that can and will change things in NJ. We were going to do the "gun show" thing in PA since NJ doesn't even allow them, but could not find volunteers. Hunters? Don't even go there! I too will sit back and laugh my "not so skinny butt" off when the "anti-gun sights" are turned on them and they start to try and organize.

To the people that frequent this board:

It takes more than joining the NRA or JPFO or NJCSD or any other group to get things the way you wish them to be. Your $XX.XX are appriciated BUT your TIME is needed more than anything. Moving to another state only prolongs the inevitable and passes the battle onto the shoulders of your children. Is that what you wish?


Stop complaining and throw your hat into the ring. If your from New Jeresy, give us a hand! We are in one of the worst gun states in the Union which means we start off way behind the eigh ball. Go to www.njcsd.org and join/volunteer to become part of the solution, not part of the problem. We could use your help to get the ball rolling. I'm tired of hearing that it is a waste of time. If that energy of complaining would be put to proper use we could kick the snot out of the laws.

Rant off............................................................................

Sorry Monkeyleg. You hit a real RAW NERVE with your post and I could not stop my hands from typing!

"Now we're in the absolute final stretch of a ten-year fight..."

Keep it going guys. It is a tough and thankless fight but being thanked is not the reason we do it.

Yours in Liberty,

Ray Woodrow 3rd

Partisan Ranger
December 30, 2003, 11:54 AM
Every postcard the NRA and GOA sends me to fill out and send in to the state or feds, I fill out and send them.

Pretty mind-boggling that so many 'pro gun' people won't do this simple thing. Or don't know how!:what:

Shooter 2.5
December 30, 2003, 12:13 PM
I went through the same thing. I posted a Wisconsin CCW alert on another website and only seven members responded. Not one of them was from Wisconsin.

AJ Dual
December 30, 2003, 12:42 PM
Every postcard the NRA and GOA sends me to fill out and send in to the state or feds, I fill out and send them.

That's a good start, and I'm not saying Partisan Ranger dosen't do more than that as well, (I'll wager he does) but I have no way of knowing, so I'll use the NRA and GOA cards as another example.

There's nothing that beats a hand-written note or letter. And I got several people at each show who think sending in their NRA cards stuffed in the mailers as "doing enough".

Legislative staffers judge public sentiment by not just the quantity of communication they get, but the types of communication. They are "ranked" by what kind of communication they get, which is basically the percieved effort you put forth to get your point across.

With some leeway, legislative communications are ranked like this:

- Individually typed or written letters and cards. Counted as representing the opinions of 25-100 voters.
- Preprinted cards from advocacy groups. Counted as representing the opinions of 10-30 voters.
- Phone call to the legislators office/switchboard. Counted as representing the opinions of 1-10 voters.
- e-mail. Counted as the opinion of 1 - (or less) voters.

It's just another point of ignorance that never ceases to amaze me with the gun-owners is that writing letters, especially in this day and age, can have such an impact. It's also sad that it seems everyone who declines to fill out a card claiming they've already written letters for the hosue, senate, and the upcoming veto override session, and looks me in the eye when they say it, so I believe them seems to be well over 50 years old. :(

If I could choose between every gun-owner belonging to the NRA, or every gun-owner being willing to write just one letter a year to thier representatives, wether federal or state, I'd choose the letter writers. The NRA could go back to teaching scouts with .22's if that happened.

December 30, 2003, 01:30 PM
I'm going to borrow this analogy of written letters compared to email etc for our site www.njcsd.org if you do not mind AJ Dual. Of course I will give you proper credit.

AJ Dual
December 30, 2003, 02:44 PM
No credit needed.

I'm just paraprhasing info I've been told, and for all I know it could be off by an order of magnitude. :D

You'd probably want to try the web for an article or any cites that lay this out more succinctly.

If not, I at least know that's the order that those items "rank". Even if my estimates are not accurate.

A typed or written letter does indeed "count the most" when trying to be heard, whatever the actual numbers are.

December 30, 2003, 06:41 PM
Zak Smith, I know what you meant. I was just "funnin' ya." ;)

12-34hom: the southwestern part of the state is pretty much written off. The Beloit area is represented by Senator Judith Robson and like-minded anti's. If we get this passed, people from Beloit are going to have to travel a ways to get their permits, because the sheriff down there doesn't want to issue, and the county board will likely give him permission to opt out.

However, we are looking for volunteers to hang out in gun shops on Saturday the 10th and Sunday the 11th in the following areas: Kenosha, Sheboygan, Stevens Point and Wausau. These four areas are represented by Democrat senators and/or assemblymen who voted for the bill and who could possibly flip. The volunteers will need to have a cell phone, and will snag people in the store and get them to call their senator and/or representatives' offices and leave a message. We already have permission from the shop owners to do this.

There are no gun shows going on in those areas, and it's the last weekend before the override votes. So, we're pulling out all stops. If you or anyone else here wants to help with the cellphone effort, contact me at info@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

While the cellphone effort is going on, we're going to be doing the gun show in Eau Claire, which is just a stone's throw from the district of Democrat Representative Barbara Gronemus, one of the seven assembly Democrats who voted for the bill. I think she will stay on board, but at this point trust isn't even a consideration. Governor Doyle is going to use every bit of bribery and muscle that he can to defeat the override. He already broke the law at least once during the assembly vote by trading cash for votes, so it's certainly posssible he'll do it again.

Getting back to my original rant: if we don't get this override, I'm going to be just a little bit miffed, especially at the deer hunters. Before this all got started, I did RO duty at hunter sight-ins. I'll do them again, but will tell the hunters that a rifle is more accurate if you tighten the screws on the action, then back them out two full turns. Or that any ammo is good to use in any rifle, as long as it begins with the number ".3". If they're dumb enough to believe Doyle, they'll believe me. :)

December 31, 2003, 08:46 AM
I share your pain.
Been doin the gun show and 2nd amendment causes, along with property rights and other rights for decades and have found the same problem.

But in the end I don't do it for anybody but me and my family. That keeps me going.

I've figured over the years only about 10% of the population is worth saving, the rest are expendable.

January 13, 2004, 02:21 AM
OK, this is what I'm talking about. I'm deleting the email address, but the stupdity is right there. Oh, and I'm sure that "Carbine Carl" is one straight-talking tough guy. Actually, I think I may know who he is. If I'm right, he's one of the rough-and-tumble bar bikers who can't hit a shotgun patterning target at 25 yards with a scoped 30'06. :rolleyes:


on 1/12/04 9:41 PM, Carl ****** at CarbineCarl@******* wrote:

> Please remove me from your mailings

Carl, this is the third request from you to have me remove you from our email alerts. I know this only because of your unusual email address.

In my previous responses, I thought I made it clear that I needed your help by identifying the "group name" that your email alerts were addressed to in order to find your email address and delete it.

The WCCA receives several email addresses every day from our website, dozens of email addresses from the sign-up lists at gun shops, and hundreds of email addresses from gun shows.

In other words, we have several thousands of email addresses.

Somebody put your email address onto one of our lists, either by the website, at a gun show, or at a gun shop. I didn't put your email address on our list, nor did any of our volunteers. The only person(s) who could put your email address onto our list is you or someone who knows your email address.

I'm sorry that you either didn't care about the concealed carry effort to begin with, or have changed your mind. Nevertheless, I cannot remove your email address without the help that I've requested above.

Of the thousands of people who receive our email alerts, only one or two ask to be removed from our lists. Usually these requests to be removed come when our group asks for someone to do real work. I never ask why, am always polite, and only ask that they understand that the time required to do so without knowing which "group" their emails are addressed to can literally take hours to find.

Each of these individuals has been cooperative enough to supply me with the "group name" so that it only takes five to ten minutes to find their address and delete it.

I ask the same courtesy of you, and will likewise extend it to you by deleting your email address from our list. Just please reply to the next email alert by saying "delete" in the reply.

If you need further help with this, you can contact me at 414-543-1916 during regular business hours.

Thank you,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA

cracked butt
January 13, 2004, 04:28 AM
Monkeyleg, you have a PM.

January 13, 2004, 06:51 PM
... shades of GB, huh?

Although I have to admit, I prefer the people who will openly say "I'm not in favor of it" to the people that see you, and walk away quickly. You'ld think I was a Jehovah's Witness or something...

And I STILL haven't had anyone take me up on my 2nd Amendment offer... ;)

For those that HAVEN'T heard it, it goes like this:

me: We're trying to push for concealed carry for Wisconsin.
Gun Show Goober: What do we need that for? We've got the 2nd...
me: I'll tell ya what. I will buy you any handgun here from a private seller. The only string is, you have to tuck it into your waistband, and show it to the friendly officer at the door, using the 2nd as your defense when he arrests you...
GSG: uhhh... I don't think so...

And PLEASE, those of you from Michigan (or other CCW state), don't walk past us at the show waving your permit under our noses. That's just plain rude!

January 15, 2004, 07:19 PM
And here's more of the kind of tripe that we get.

Email to me:

on 1/14/04 9:27 PM, ******* at ****@jvlnet.com wrote:

> What is it about the second amendment you do not understand?
> Robert ****

My reply:

Hi, Robert. We've been down this road before, I've explained my thinking, and understand yours. I see no sense in revisiting the issue.

One of our gun show volunteers {Hunter Rose here on TFL} has issued a challenge to those who hold your position. He will buy a pistol and ammo for that person. The person must load the pistol, tuck it into his waistband under his coat, walk into the nearest police station, open his coat and say, "hey, officers, look at this!" So far, he's had no takers.


His reply back:

Now you are being stupid!! You know as well as I do the only way we take
this back is through education and doing it in mass. As long as you and
people like you keep telling the people they have no second amendment
rights they begin to believe you. So to add insult to injury you want
them to permit the 2nd amendment away. You are no better than the
politicians who have been writing the color of law for the last 150
years. Compromise like th NRA and give away some more of our rights. You
are dead wrong. Yes we have been down this road before and we will keep
going down it untill we the people get it right. We hope you see the
light and jump on board.

Check out our web site www.cwlp.org

Thank you

Robert *****

January 15, 2004, 10:44 PM
the gunowners who have no idea who the elected officials are - state or natl....... i know the feeling , oh how I know the feeling..... burned out on gunshows - yeap!

January 16, 2004, 04:18 AM
Anything we out-of-staters can do to help? I don't have a legislator there, but I can adopt one! :)

AJ Dual
January 16, 2004, 10:13 AM

Take a look at www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com the official WCCA website, there is legislator contact info, and a list of some of the critical legislators to contact in the various links on that site.

You can call from your state. Admit you're from a different state, but tell them that pro-gun people across the country are watching the upcoming override vote, and tell them you are willing to donate to the NRA-ILA, or their opponent in the next election.


So this prize of a guy wrote:

Now you are being stupid!! You know as well as I do the only way we take this back is through education and doing it in mass.

The guy wants to pontificate about "education" when he doesn’t know it's supposed to be "en masse "? LOL.

What is he, some kind of Posse Comitatus wanna-be?

January 16, 2004, 10:53 AM
Wouldn't supprise me if he was. Also probably has a cache out in his backyard full of ak's and suchlike...

January 16, 2004, 06:23 PM
Don't give up. Persistance pays off. Hubby and I worked for 20 years in Michigan for shall issue CCW, victims rights, handgun bans, assault weapon bans and the cop killer bullets. Sometimes we were the only civilians who cared enough to be in Lansing. We stopped the cop killer bullet ban, handgun ban and got the victims right bill written into the Constitution. Finally enough people had enough of the Gun Board refusing them CCW and the law was finally revised. It is going on the 3rd year, crime is down 10.5% and Detroit has the lowest homicide since 1968.:D

January 18, 2004, 05:15 PM
No need to pay attention to this post. I just need to rant a bit.

[rant mode]
This weekend we had volunteers going to gun shops in four particular legislative districts with their cell phones, trying to get people to call the targetted legislators.

The volunteer for the Wausau area (waaayyy up north) got sick, so I drove up on Friday with the plan of staying through Sunday.

As soon as I walked into the shop, I realized I was in the Land of Hunters and Sportsmen, those guys who could give a rat's pitootie about gun rights. The owner of the shop and his clerk were also obviously Hunters and Sportsmen: they were watching the Outdoors channel, switching back and forth between the fishing shows and the ATV events. I knew that I couldn't get into any discussions with customers, just find the ones who support the bill.

OK, I'll do my best.

Wrong. In the 15 or so hours that I was there from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning, easily 150 people came through the store. Only 20 were for the bill. The others had their reasons: I don't need to carry a concealed weapon. Nobody needs to carry a concealed weapon. I don't pay attention to politics. Wausau doesn't have much crime. I don't wanna get involved. If I call the senator I'll get on some kind of list. I don't vote. That's what the NRA is for. Somebody will go nuts and start killing people.

Then there's the guys--and anybody who's been working the gun shows will recognize them--who just give you this look: http://www.dickbakerphoto.com/jack.jpg

When I told one guy that he was breaking the law by having a knife in his pocket, his face turned red and the hatred for me was visible in his eyes. If I'd said one more word to him I have no doubt he would have punched me.

My favorite was the guy who said he opposed the bill because he has a bad temper and might shoot somebody. A tour of this guy's mind would be like walking through a carnival house of mirrors. Consider the logic: he thinks that if he got a permit, he'd lose control and shoot someone. Does not having a permit keep him in check? Further, his bad temper apparently justifies having my wife be defenseless. What's more, while he was telling me this, he was holding his .30-06 rifle. Does he ever lose control when he's carrying that? And, if he has such a bad temper that he might hurt somebody, isn't that all the more reason for the rest of us to be able to defend ourselves against him? (Perhaps he's already thought that one out and realizes he might get shot).

These guys are leeches on the gun community. They're self-absorbed, single-minded oafs whose brains could be measured in millimeters.

What's even worse is that they all look the same: camouflage baseball caps, camouflage jackets, camouflage pants. I swear they do this so they can have sex with each others' wives and the women won't know the difference. Considering the odds of some cousin-to-cousin encounters, such a scenario might help explain the dearth of rational thought in the region.

If I were George Soros, I'd buy four million rifles, give them to all the deer in Wisconsin, and teach the deer how to shoot back.

Hunters and Sportsmen. :barf:

[/rant mode]

January 18, 2004, 06:00 PM
You're doing a good thing, Dick. Disheartening in the short term, and maybe even the long term, but those 20 count..and for every 20 you find, there are hundreds more out there that they represent.

Skirmisher, do I know you? (or should I?) :)

January 18, 2004, 06:15 PM
registration always precedes confiscation historically. Why are folks going for this compromise?
I dont understand why people trust their STATE any more than they would trust the FED?
Isnt the whole point of the 2nd amendment the right to keep and bear arms, and the 4th amendment to make sure NO govt knows about who what, where, and how much people posess?
By fighting for concealed carry law, you're in fact gutting your concealment ability from your STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

just pondering...

January 18, 2004, 06:35 PM
I feel for you buddy. The only one I havn't run into is number one - because we don't let them address the cards/envelopes themselves.

My wife has relatives in Racine. At the annual 4th of July picnic (made the papers) got talking about guns with one of the 'kids' (over 21 living in the DC area) about shooting. He was real interested. Started mentioning some of the different caliber handguns I had and the old man couldn't believe it. Glad I didn't mention quantities (not that I have that many).

Keep up the good work!

January 18, 2004, 06:42 PM
captlid, not more than five years ago I felt the same way you did. When my brother in PA got his permit, I told him he was subjecting himself to registration of some sort.

It was about that same time, though, that I started getting irritated with the reaction from tourists from CA and Europe to my carrying openly when on my motorcycle trips out west. I carried openly because I was often out in remote areas and travelling by myself. If I came upon one of the scenic overlook areas, the tourists would either get in their cars and take off, or follow me around with their videocameras. It was really annoying, so I got a FL non-resident permit. Problem solved.

However, when I returned home to Wisconsin, I couldn't carry. It was also about that time that I joined thefiringline.com and started reading posts from people who have permits to carry from just about every one of the--at that time--44 states.

It was a real eye-opener. These folks had a choice: be on a list, or don't carry. My choice was thus: don't carry or go to jail. Not exactly a fair barter.

I don't even recall the number of states that have gone shall-issue since Florida passed in 1987. The number is probably around 20. That shows a nationwide groundswell of support for legal means of self-defense.

This was a watershed year as Alaska was the first state to go from shall-issue to Vermont-style carry. In time I believe that other states will follow Alaska's model. In the meantime, though, the reality is that, if states like Idaho, Montana, Utah and Arizona can't get Vermont-style carry, the likelihood of Wisconsin ever getting it are slim to none.

And, as I told the few people who would acknowledge my presence this weekend, if they've applied for a hunting license, they're already on a list. Hell, if you're in the phone book you're on a list.

You pretty much have to let the government know you're there. The trick lies in not letting the government know what you have. ;)

January 18, 2004, 06:55 PM
for your response..

You pretty much have to let the government know you're there. The trick lies in not letting the government know what you have.

Kind of hard to do when every time a gun is purchased (except directly from another person) it goes through a NICS check. (and the FBI happily keeping this data against law)

January 19, 2004, 11:04 AM

No, not quite true, at least the way I'm reading your post in response to Dick's reply.

The FBI knows that you purchased a firearm because of the NICS check, but NOT the serial number/type of firearm that was purchased.

Unless the BATFE would come in, check the FFL's records, look through his A&D book and report back to the FBI the serial numbers involved.


AJ Dual
January 19, 2004, 02:35 PM

That's it!

My God...

That indeed is "the look". And boy, do the ice fishermen down in Kenosha have it bad. And it isn't allways the angry "What in the H.E. double-hockeysticks are you talk'in to me fer bohy?" look. Sometimes it's just the deer in the headlights version, while the gears spin up in preperation for spending 10 minutes making excuses, when the phone call (on my cell, on my dime, with the critical rep and senator programed in with one-key speed dials no less) would have taken two.

Oh, BTW, Dick and HunterRose...

I forgot to tell you about the State Patrolman who apparenly likes to hang out at Mastermens' during his shift up and down I-94 and jaw-jack with the owners for an hour or two.

One of the brothers, apparently from long familiarity, mentioned to me this officer is a jerk as he saw the State Patrol cruiser pull into the parking lot. Shortly after coming in, they asked him what he felt about the concealed carry law, without ever telling him I was there on behalf of the WCCA., and letting me keep quiet...

Well... lets say he wasn't for it. We all just conversationally peppered him with questions, what about it being linked to DL's and license plates on your computer? Aren't you trained to assume everyone might be armed anyway? His response was pure bravado that if the law passes, he'll start every traffic stop by "putting his sidearm in the drivers ear" until he can acertain what's going on etc... :rolleyes:

Of course, he chuckled, he was all for CCW in WI in two years when he retired.

And after another hour of stories about bragging how he likes to pull over latinos etc. the store traffic died in anticipation of the Packers game. Until then, I just hung out on the other end of the store and hit up the customers at the gun and bait counters to call the Kenosha Reps. The trooper hung out up front, never knew why I was there, and didn't ask.

Just as well. Had he found out he'd run his mouth like that in front of a WCCA volunteer for hours on end without knowing it, I'm about 95% positive that my "payback" would have been a 30 second running start before I saw his cherries in my rearview on my way home.

What a joy.

January 20, 2004, 11:21 PM
And from today's mailbag:

on 1/20/04 3:53 PM, *****@cs.com at *****@cs.com wrote:

To Hum it may concern.
As a Minnesotan how had a permit to carry before the Bill past in Minnesota I strongly urge you not to pass the bill. All it will do is raise the fees for the people that
have the permit and sings will go up in building that say NO GUNS PERMITTED.
So I feel That before the bill there was a chance of a gun being some where when needed, now there is NO chance.
My permit expired at the end of October, I did not and will not get it renewed
What is the point of carrying a gun if you cannot take it with you?
A good portion of my rights were striped away, but only a few people can understand
that. My civil rights were much stronger one year ago. I hope that Wisconsin dose not us Minnesota's bill as a guideline.

Please Make the right deceptions Thank You for your time

HOLD HARD !! Tim ****

My reply:

Hello, Tim. Thank you for your input.

You were fortunate to have a permit to carry in a county where your sheriff believed in the right of citizens to defend themselves. While you had your permit, citizens in other MN counties were denied that right.

Here in Wisconsin, every last single citizen is denied the right to defend himself.

I'm sorry that the new permit system in MN cost you more. How much more, I don't know. All I do know is that citizens from Minneapolis, St. Paul, Duluth and other areas who were denied the ability to defend themselves can now do so. If your primary concern is over the increase in the cost of your own permit, then I would ask you to take a second look at your stance: are you concerned about the rights of the many, or just your own?

Sorry to be so blunt, but emails expressing concerns such as yours arrive everyday. And I have little patience for those who would selfishly defend their own easily-obtained privileges at the expense of those who are completely denied their rights by self-appointed bureaucratic fiefs.

Yours Truly,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA

January 20, 2004, 11:26 PM
Oh, and by the way, I strongly suspect that the email above may have come from THR's own mpthole as a joke. I mean, how many words can one person misspell?

mpthole, if this was your joke please let us know. If it wasn't you, then there's some really braindead guy in MN who shares your last name. And if that doesn't scare the daylights out of you, I don't know what would!

January 21, 2004, 12:08 AM

Please keep up the good fight!
If Minnesota, the Liberal la la land of Humphrey and Mondale, can pass a CCW bill then so can Wisconsin.

January 21, 2004, 09:30 AM
ROTFLOL!!! Oh my... it definitely WAS NOT from me. I'm not that creative or deceptive. :p I was laughing from the minute I started reading it! I know that I recently had a thread where I couldn't seem to use "except" correctly...obviously nobody is perfect... but sheesh!

Thank goodness it wasn't from any relative that I know of either. My brother lives in WI and any others that I know that share my last name either aren't related or couldn't get a permit. (I've got some cousins who've led questionable lives... enough said)

Excellent job (once again!) on your measured reply. :cool: We're almost there!

January 21, 2004, 10:37 AM
I haven't heard when they are going to schedule the overide vote in the Assembly. Any idea when it is going to be??

AJ Dual
January 21, 2004, 11:07 AM
At least in the Senate.

Go here: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/insession/senate/index.htm

Calendar for: Wednesday, January 21, 2004
1. Call of Roll.
2. Chief clerk's entries.
3. Introduction, first reading and reference of proposals.
4. Report of committees.
5. Petitions and communications.
SB214 - Links...
Fiscal Estimate

SB214 is Sen. Zien's PPA or Personal Protection Act which is the WI CCW bill. I can only assume this is the Senate override vote for Doyle's veto.

I don't know what's going on in the Assembly either. They don't have a calendar posted for anything other than yesterday the 20th.

Do we have a nail-biting smiley on THR?

January 21, 2004, 01:16 PM
They were saying that they would have the vote taken by noon. What's cookin' in Madision? Anyone have the scoop?

January 21, 2004, 01:22 PM
I'm guessing that Dick (aka Monkeyleg) is at the Senate as I type. I checked the website and it says the "Senate stands in recess for party caucuses". The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/) doesn't say anything yet either.

Wish I knew more!!! :banghead:

January 21, 2004, 01:42 PM
The local news here is still propagating misinformation. They are talking about the some LE association (Sheriff's?) being against it because it is going to take up so much manpower to run the background checks. :barf:

AJ Dual
January 21, 2004, 03:31 PM
I've watched the http://www.legis.state.wi.us/insession/senate/index.htm site as well and have been biting my nails all day...





Now I'm making noises just like Dean did at the end of the Iowa Caucases..


January 21, 2004, 03:46 PM
This is such a load of tripe. I'm sick of the political BS they continually pull. Just like last year when they conveniently ran out of time to vote on it. :fire:

January 21, 2004, 04:19 PM
1. When CCW was on Missouri's ballot a few years back, a fellow told me that he liked things just the way they were, because he "knew people," so he and his wife didn't need to worry.

2. Was at a show, and talking to a fellow working a politician's booth... chatted for about five minutes before he brought up the fact that he'd once been abducted by aliens... This fellow was _running_ the booth...

January 21, 2004, 05:57 PM
Yeah they were in caucuses all day, and around 4:54PM decided to push today's calendar (WED) over to Thursday. They had to attend the state of the union address from Doyle, so it looks like they'll start up at 8:30am Thursday morning. Damn democrats probably stalled so Doyle could get his state of the union speech out without having the SB214 override vote biting him in the ???.


January 22, 2004, 10:24 AM
Good morning all... this could be the day.


9:20am - The Senate Stands in recess ? :(

AJ Dual
January 22, 2004, 10:54 AM
From: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/insession/senate/index.htm the WI state legislature "live" senate page...


They're doing it again...

I am starting a separate thread on the veto override vote today... The Democrat leadership wouldn't be stalling if they didn't think the override would pass. So now I think it's a good thing. However the longer the Democratic caucus carries on, the more pressure they can bring to bear against the pro-CCW Democrats.

January 22, 2004, 11:01 AM
According to Charlie Sykes this morning on local radio (WTMJ 620AM) the senate minority leader Senator Jon Erpenbach (Democrat) threatened to throw Senator Russell Decker (one of the Democrat swing votes that voted for the bill originally) off the joint finance committee if he didn’t vote with the rest of the Democrats. This went public followed by a verbal apology from Senator Erpenbach that Charlie played on his program.

No big surprise that the Democratic leadership and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel (known locally as the Milwaukee Urinal-Sentinel) are painting it as if the Democrats blocked the vote yesterday because the evil Republicans wanted to embarrass the governor on the day that he made the State of the State Address. (http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/jan04/201679.asp) I've got news for them, Doyle's an embarassment any day of the week, not just yesterday.

It looks like this thing may go with the help of a handful of sensible Democrats.

- Abe

AJ Dual
January 22, 2004, 11:09 AM
It still has to go through the Assembly as well. Despite all the "drama" from the Senate Democrats, the Senate is actually the "easier" house for CCW right now, IIRC CCW passed the Senate with a few more votes than needed for an override proof majority, so we could afford to lose 1-2 senate votes and still override the Governor.

In the Assembly, CCW passed, but two votes shy of a 2/3rds veto override majority, but two Republican Assemblymen who voted against the bill said they'd not stand in the way of the majority and would vote to override the Governor, so there it's critical we lose not one vote there.

Hopefully Ohio's, Minnesota's, Missouri's, and New Mexico's recent passage of CCW is adding some momentum, and provides our legislators with proof that this is passing most everywhere.

January 22, 2004, 02:07 PM
and listening to the radio today, we passed the senate. Yesterday was a circus: supposed to convene at 1000, finally convened at 1130, broke for caucuses at 1140, republicans were ready to go again by 1200, dems stalled out until the repubs pushed the vote back (around 1700). When I left (@1500), a fair sized group of CCW supporters had decided to wait outside the chamber where the dems were hiding, and chanting "VOTE!" whenever the chamber door opened... ;)

And I have to agree with the aforementioned statement: we need a nail-biting smiley!

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