Local teen charged with bringing gun into Denny's ... ?


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357_
January 18, 2011, 07:12 PM
I was reading an article here in Maine and wanted to see if anybody had any input as to the legal standing of it.

Story ---> http://www.bangordailynews.com/story/Greater-Bangor/Bangor-teen-charged-with-bringing-gun-into-Dennys,164173

My Thoughts:

They said he entered and went to a corner booth with some friends. He visibly had a gun on his hip and that disturbed some patrons. Admittedly this is theory here (all I have to go on with the journalism in this state) but I believe the magazine and single round on the table indicated he knew the police were there for him and he wanted to make it very clear his firearm was unloaded. There is much speculation here but, my thought is that he didn't have a concealed weapons permit and that is a crime to carry concealed, again this is an assumption as he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon which is legal with a permit. As to the concealment, unless he is crazy he was wearing a coat and it was -5 the night in question. So as a result his coat would cover the belt area unless they were around his knees, not saying it is that uncommon. Up to here I have very little issue, if you want to carry concealed and the law states you need a permit you should get one and Maine is "shall issue", I had mine in 2weeks.

The terrorizing charge is what concerns me most. It is my understanding that if you scare people during the commission of a crime you can be charged with terrorizing. Does it seem odd to anybody that the terrorizing complaint generated the illegal concealed carry? Is it possible that during the commission of ANY crime, even Jay-walking that people could be alarmed by a man crossing the road with an open carry holster and I could be charged with Jay-walking and terrorizing? Even if I have a CCW permit and at no point touched or referenced my gun?

It just seems like this could really be taken out of context. The story leaves much to be desired in the way of details but, I am very concerned about the debate surrounding this story. It looks like anybody could get an added terrorizing charge if they have a weapon (legal or not) and fracture any law, regardless of the nature of the original crime.

Any input?

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ColtPythonElite
January 18, 2011, 07:19 PM
The terrorizing charge will never stick.

medalguy
January 19, 2011, 02:24 AM
According to the story the kid was 19. How did he obtain the pistol? I didn't check the Maine laws on CCW but I doubt he can get a permit at 19 either. Also sounds like he removed the gun inside the Denny's and ejected the mag AND cleared the gun inside the restaurant. Not smart moves.

Davek1977
January 19, 2011, 04:22 AM
According to the story the kid was 19. How did he obtain the pistol? I didn't check the Maine laws on CCW but I doubt he can get a permit at 19 either.
Not sure about Maine, but in SD, an 18 yr old can get a permit issued within 48 hours, so long as the background check comes back clean. I had my permit 15 minutes after school was out on my 18th birthday.

357_
January 19, 2011, 09:10 AM
According to the story the kid was 19. How did he obtain the pistol? I didn't check the Maine laws on CCW but I doubt he can get a permit at 19 either. Also sounds like he removed the gun inside the Denny's and ejected the mag AND cleared the gun inside the restaurant. Not smart moves.
21 to purchase a handgun but 18 for a CCW.

As far as emptying it, if you have a gun and cops are coming (seen in the parking lot) I don't see a problem with clearing the gun. However, if he cleared it before eating for some odd reason the terrorizing may have more of a chance of sticking. I just know from these local papers you'd read "Brandishing" if that was the case, they love to sell papers and use words that can only mean a gun (open carry legal =/= gun friendly).

I'm just interested to see where the terrorizing works in. In my opinion, regardless of your feelings of the law you need to follow it. No permit = no concealed carry. Had he followed the law I think the whole thing would have gone a lot better in that aspect.

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 09:29 AM
As far as emptying it, if you have a gun and cops are coming (seen in the parking lot) I don't see a problem with clearing the gun. Yikes!

If you have a gun and the cops are coming -- for the love of Pete -- DON'T TOUCH IT!

Keep your hands empty and in the open. Be calm, move slowly, don't put your hands anywhere near the gun! If they want to secure the gun, THEY'LL DO IT.

Doing anything else is pushing your chances of bleeding WAY too high.

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 09:38 AM
From reading the scant information available in the article, the man must not have had a permit, or he wouldn't have been charged with carrying a concealed weapon illegally.

He had to lift his shirt to show it, so an open carry claim is not likely to fly.

Maine defines terrorizing thus:
A person is guilty of terrorizing if that person communicates to any person a threat to commit or to cause to be committed a crime of violence dangerous to human life, against the person to whom the communication is made or another, and the natural and probable consequence of such a threat, whether or not such consequence in fact occurs is: to place the person to whom the threat is communicated or the person threatened in reasonable fear that a crime will be committed; or to cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transport or to cause the occupants of a building to be moved to or required to remain in a designated secure area. Title 17-A, 210, 1. Terrorizing is usually a Class C or D crime.


It doesn't appear likely that the terrorizing charge will stick, but who knows. As he was (allegedly) already committing one crime (no CCW permit) it may be reasoned that showing weapons or ammunition may have been seen as pursuant to (or a threat of) a further crime. Hard to say.

TraditionalCatholic
January 19, 2011, 10:01 AM
Again, was it legal for him to own the handgun? In Missouri you can buy a handgun at 18 from a private seller or be given one as a gift, but I don't know the laws in Maine.

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 10:12 AM
Yes. The NRA-ILA page on Maine says 18 is the minimum age for ownership of a handgun.

frankenstein406
January 19, 2011, 10:44 AM
Is it legal to open carry there?

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 10:50 AM
Yes. Read all about it at www.opencarry.org.

As he's described as having to raise his shirt to display the gun to the officers, I doubt that will help him.

henschman
January 19, 2011, 11:50 AM
I don't believe that laws which infringe on your liberty deserve to be followed... I totally support civil disobedience, including people who do not ask for their masters' permission to carry a weapon to defend their life... but if you break the law, you need to realize the consequences if you are caught, and you should probably try to take some precaution against getting caught. This guy could have done a better job concealing the handgun, that's for sure. That would definitely be a good idea if you're carrying illegally.

As for the terrorizing charge, it requires a predicate crime of violence, which this guy didn't commit, so it has very low chances of sticking. It is probably just a case of the DA engaging in horizontal overcharging in an attempt to get a more favorable plea bargain.

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 12:08 PM
I totally support civil disobedience, ... you should probably try to take some precaution against getting caught.

The definition of civil disobedience is NOT "getting away with disobeying bad laws."

Civil disobedience is the act of BLATANTLY and PUBLICLY breaking a law, and willingly taking the punishment for that act as a public statement that you oppose the law and DESIRE to accept punishment rather than live under such a rule.

I see a lot of this kind of talk -- go ahead and make a machine gun secretly, it's civil disobedience! -- go ahead and carry illegally, deeply concealed so no one ever knows, it's civil disobedience! -- and such things entirely miss the point.

Sneaking around breaking the law, praying you don't get caught, is NOT an act of protest and cannot be considered civil disobedience!

rscalzo
January 19, 2011, 12:13 PM
If you have a gun and the cops are coming -- for the love of Pete -- DON'T TOUCH IT!

Absolutely.

bikemutt
January 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
From what I can tell Maine's CFP permit requires the applicant to be at least 18 years old. Doubtful he has a CFP; if he does I can't see why they'd arrest him for concealed carry. Page 4 of this link may shed some light http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/documents/Weapons/CFP%20Booklet.pdf

"Polk took the handgun off Clendenning, who does not have a criminal record with the Bangor police, and removed him from the restaurant, Edwards said."

So he doesn't have a record with Bangor PD; that's good to know I suppose :rolleyes:

rscalzo
January 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
who does not have a criminal record with the Bangor police

As an 18 year old, doubt he would. doesn't mean he never came in contact with any agencies as a juvenile.

357_
January 19, 2011, 06:22 PM
Sneaking around breaking the law, praying you don't get caught, is NOT an act of protest and cannot be considered civil disobedience!

I should make that my signature I like it so much.

As far as not touching a gun, its a pretty conditional situation where I would ever unload it. But being in a situation with a loaded gun and knowing that the police are coming to deal explicitly with me or my situation I would most certainly unload it before they got there.

If a cop is approaching me for whatever reason I agree, pulling my weapon to drop the magazine would get me shot VERY fast. Don't take it out of context, I don't have a general rule for every situation but prefer to adapt to them as needed.

Example: A criminal breaks into my home and tried to attack me. I shoot him and the threat is dealt with. I then dial 911, unload my weapon and place it in a location clearly seen from the officer when they arrive and distanced from myself so it is not a threat. The officer would already know there was a shooting and be looking for a gun, it being clearly out of my reach and emptied would greatly reduce my chances of eager-beaver putting 3 in my chest.

I am satisfied with the answers I received in several posts in regards to the terrorizing charges and would like to thank the posters.

Thanks again!

Sam1911
January 19, 2011, 06:38 PM
I shoot him and the threat is dealt with. I then dial 911, unload my weapon and place it in a location clearly seen from the officer when they arrive and distanced from myself so it is not a threat.We've had a few go-rounds on that one, too.

You shoot him and the threat is dealt with. Call 911, unload the gun and place it away from yourself to wait for the police:

a) bad guy regains consciousness
b) bag guy #2 appears out of the other room/closet, bursts in from outside, etc.

Just a couple of possibilities that can happen in the muddled and chaotic world of a developing crime scene.

The prevailing wisdom is to remain armed and observant until the officers take control of the scene. They aren't going to shoot you just because you have a loaded gun on your hip. You really don't have any reason to disarm yourself -- at all.

Ryanxia
January 19, 2011, 06:42 PM
I didn't read every post but wanted to clarify a few things being from Maine.

You can Open Carry without a permit although try doing that in some major cities and see how far you get :)

You CAN get a CCW at 18. To the best of my knowledge you can conceal a handgun then because I believe a parent can gift a handgun to you before you are 21.

The Open Carry law in Maine states that at least half of the firearm must be visible, this CAN include the holster.

You CANNOT consume any alcoholic beverages while carrying publicly (of course)

JohnBT
January 19, 2011, 06:58 PM
Does it say anything about unloading your handgun at the table at 2 a.m. while waiting on your order?

:banghead:

bikemutt
January 19, 2011, 07:43 PM
Good point JohnBT.

It's not a cell phone for crying out loud, someone fondling a gun while seated would get my attention, and I'd probably leave the establishment.

Now that I said fondle, makes me think the guy would be in almost as much trouble if he removed his :what: at the table and did anything with that.

There's just some things you don't need to play with at the dinner table.

cassandrasdaddy
January 20, 2011, 05:44 PM
Does it say anything about unloading your handgun at the table at 2 a.m. while waiting on your order?



It hurts to read about that kinda stupid don't it?
A few miles north of you some young morons were shooting in the street then ran into the house before cops showed up. When house was surrounded and they were ordered out the young mensa member came out with the gun still in the waistband of his baggy pants.

JohnBT
January 20, 2011, 06:42 PM
"it hurts to read don't it?"

Read what? I call your don't it and raise you a shift key. Bet or fold.

What are you referring to if I may ask?

357_
January 22, 2011, 09:28 AM
Does it say anything about unloading your handgun at the table at 2 a.m. while waiting on your order?

:banghead:
No excuse for that, at all. I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt. Even TRYING to think this guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time I can't make him innocent (or intelligent for that matter)

People like this guy *in the story* are just chipping away at what gun rights we have left.

~Edited for clarification~

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