UPS stole my gun


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jlg
January 19, 2011, 11:47 AM
I recently made a trade with someone out of state. I shipped him a NIB Bushmaster 97S Carbon-15 Pistol. It's a 7.5" AR15 without a buttstock. They are very hard to get a hold of and not cheap at all.

When the box arrived at the other FFL the gun was missing and a box of fireworks had been put into the box.

Local Police and ATF basically told me that because it is just one gun they probably won't do anything about it.

After just a couple of days UPS called me and said, "We have been unable to find your lost package and since you didn't pay for extra insurance we will be sending you a check for $100." Apparently UPS can steal from you and call it a lost package...even if the package was delivered with the wrong contents.

What angers me more than the loss of $900 is the fact that no one seems to care that a firearm was stolen.:fire: UPS barely put any effort into tracking it down and figured it would just be easier to pay $100 and move on.

Stealing a firearm is a felony. So basically we now have a felon walking around with a firearm that meets almost every "evil" criteria that the government wants to ban (short barrel, flash suppressor, 30-round magazine, pistol grip, detachable magazine)...and nobody cares.

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/catalog/c15_large/AZ-C15P97S_l.jpg

But, on a positive note, the ATF did tell me, "If he ever uses it in a crime we'll be able to track the serial number and know that it was stolen." So that makes me feel much better.:banghead:

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ColtPythonElite
January 19, 2011, 11:52 AM
I don't blame you for being angry. True, someone stole your package and most likely it was an UPS employee. But maybe not, I also understand the have private contractors that haul their mail.

Mags
January 19, 2011, 11:58 AM
Few questions.

Did you ship the gun overnight?

Did you read and sign the insurance waiver?

Gordon
January 19, 2011, 12:00 PM
When pistols are shipped isn't it a requirement they be overnighted so they know where the location always is within 50 feet?

jlg
January 19, 2011, 12:01 PM
Yes, the gun went overnight. I didn't sign a waiver but I didn't sign for extra insurance either.

bubba15301
January 19, 2011, 12:01 PM
you need to call the corporate office of ups they can track down who handled the package

rscalzo
January 19, 2011, 12:09 PM
Next Day Air automatically insures every package for $100.00. It is up to the shipper to add declared value to the shipment. It costs .74 per one hundred dollars. A total of six dollars additional.

Once an item is out of the shipping container, there is no way to track it. One of the more popular ways to move out an item was to over label a box shipped to an associates address.

That's why all major firearm's manufacturers and dealers do not use their own name for a shipping label. If it were a newer hub, video might be available. Old substation hubs do not have much of that equipment installed.

Ben86
January 19, 2011, 12:10 PM
you need to call the corporate office of ups they can track down who handled the package

^This, take it as high as you can, and maybe consult a lawyer so you could threaten a lawsuit. You have to make big corporations like that take you seriously. Also mention mentioning their wanton disregard for stolen guns to the public, the media.

TX expat
January 19, 2011, 12:24 PM
That's crazy, but I guess it doesn't surprise me. There's no way to guarantee that you'll only have honest people handling the package you ship, which is probably the best reason to be sure and purchase the insurance available.

I'd think that if you went high enough up in the UPS chain of command, you'd see some action though. Personally, I'd find out the name of the district manager and speak with them on the phone. Get names and take notes. If you don't immediately get a more positive vibe from that person, I'd send a polite, certified letter to Scott Davis, the Chairman and CEO of UPS. I'd very politely explain how serious you feel this situation is. I'd make some veiled implications that maybe if it was their money, they'd take a more proactive stance on finding out what happened. Most importantly though is to stay polite and level headed, because then they will have a more difficult time writing you off.

Since you could have purchased insurance to cover yourself, I doubt that there is anything you will be able to do to get financially reimbursed, but you can at least make sure you've done everything possible to get someone investigating the theft.

rscalzo
January 19, 2011, 12:29 PM
they can track down who handled the package

It was never stated if it was shipped Next Day Air as required by UPS regulations. Even so, the shipped declined the additional insurance and was paid exactly what the contract specified.

Was the box sealed upon arrival at the FFL? Knowing how the hubs work, the packages do not remain in one spot long enough for someone to open, replace the contents and reseal and relabel. Much depends on it's travel through the automated scanners in the hubs.

TX expat
January 19, 2011, 12:32 PM
Yes, he clarified that in post #5, he did ship it Next Day Air.

bruzer
January 19, 2011, 12:35 PM
That is absolutely terrible.
I realize you must be very upset (I would be too) so please don't take offense with this information. This is copied from the UPS website:
Declared Value
Per domestic package and international shipment*:
$0.75 for each $100.00 (or portion of $100.00) of the total value declared, with a minimum charge of $2.25

Delivery Confirmation


* Delivery Confirmation: $2.00 per package
* Delivery Confirmation Signature Required: $3.25 per package
* Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required: $4.25 per package

I know that UPS automatically insures for $100 but for an extra $7.75 your package would have been insured for $1000. Then add another $4.25 for Delivery Conformation Adult Signature Required and for a total of $12 of extra fees you would have been insured for $1000 and had much more piece of mind shipping an expensive item like that.
Once again please take no offense but when shipping expensive items it is important to pay that extra and get all the insurance and services available.
Mike

jlg
January 19, 2011, 12:46 PM
I don't generally insure my shipments just because they are always packaged well enough that I'm not worried about damage and in all my years of shipping things nothing has ever been lost.

It really angers me that they classify this as a "lost" package when there is no doubt that it was stolen. I understand that per the contract I can only expect $100. And although I don't think I should have to pay a company extra just in case they try to steal from me, that's the way it is. But I don't want them to just pay me $100 and drop the case. FIND MY GUN AND ARREST THE FELON THAT TOOK IT. If we'd worry less about making new gun laws and worry more about enforcing the ones we already have we might actually make a dent in the crime statistics.

bikemutt
January 19, 2011, 12:47 PM
I'm not so sure UPS would have accepted responsibility even if it had been insured. This is not a case where they damaged the payload by mishandling it, nor did they outright just lose the package.

My experience with UPS has been that once the insured dollar value rises around the $1000 mark, they will only accept the package at a corporate drop off location and may also require the contents be inspected by a UPS employee. Once they accept custody of such a package and sign off on it's contents then they are on the hook for even the strangest perils.

It's certainly a fuzzy area.

I feel your pain and hope you get that gun recovered someday.

tkaction
January 19, 2011, 12:47 PM
Im sorry but what were you thinking when you didnt buy the insurance.

jlg
January 19, 2011, 12:51 PM
I was thinking, "Surely UPS won't steal from me."

medalguy
January 19, 2011, 12:57 PM
Sorry about your gun, I know that really sucks. But from the UPS standoint, as a business matter, there's this:

1. You shipped a product, doesn't matter what it was, and this created a contract with UPS.
2. They automatically covered $100 with insurance at no cost to you.
3. You did not declare the actual value not pay for any additional insurance.
4. The product was not delivered per your contract with UPS.
5. UPS paid you the $100 insurance which was provided with the basic shipping charge.
6. UPS handles literally millions of packages daily. This is but one package. They complied with every term of their contract with you.
7. I doubt anything will come of this situation which is very unfortunate but that's the reality of the situation.

Good luck getting anything further accomplished. It's unfortunate.

For everyone else, remember to declare full value on all firearms shipped and always insure for full value. I ran a business for many years and we self-insured but I was not in the firearms business. I think firearms are a little bit more likely to disappear in transit than most other products and we need to be prepared for this to happen. It does.

Frank Ettin
January 19, 2011, 01:03 PM
[1] Tracking down a stolen gun and prosecuting the thief isn't UPS' job. That's up to law enforcement.

[2] The OP didn't buy the available additional insurance, so UPS' liability is limited to $100.00.

[3] This is a good lesson about why one should always buy the additional insurance unless he is willing to assume the risk of loss himself.

jlg
January 19, 2011, 01:04 PM
Again, I'm not at all angry over the fact that I'm only getting $100 from UPS. I chose not to insure the package. I took the gamble and lost. I don't believe theft should be classified as "losing a package" but that's the way it is.

What angers me is that UPS committed a felony (they are responsible for their employees) and not only do they not care but neither does local law enforcement nor the ATF.

It's scary to me to think about a felon running around with this gun.

esquare
January 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
[1] Tracking down a stolen gun and prosecuting the thief isn't UPS' job. That's up to law enforcement.

Tracking down how a package's contents were stolen while in possession of the company is most definitely UPS's job. Who would ever accept anything else? Their job is to get items from point a to point b. If they aren't doing that, then they need to be working on figuring out what went wrong.

This is akin to someone saying that it's not walmart's job to find employee's that are stealing products from the stores - of course it's walmart's job.

Now, it's the LEOs job to go find the guy and prosecute him, but to think that UPS has no role in finding the felon employee is not right.

raz-0
January 19, 2011, 01:47 PM
Seriously, no insurance?

ATF isn't involved in theft though, they deal in trafficking, if that. Have you tried the FBI since it is interstate commerce? Or local law enforcement? As far as you know, the driver/clerk you handed it to pocketed it after you gave it to them. The ATF certainly isn't who I would call regarding theft.

Jackal
January 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
My rule of thumb: Whenever anything is worth more than $100, I insure it, regardless of the carrier. Treat shipping an expensive item like gambling; only ship un-insured that which you could afford to lose.

rscalzo
January 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
Was it shipped "Next Day Air"?

Otherwise, the number of employees that the package passes can be in the hundreds. Few actually touch it and until it is actually loaded on the truck, it rarely stands still for long.

Was it shipped from a UPS Center's Customer Counter? Was the contents declared as a firearm? If not, they can simply declare the package was delivered intact.

Over 15 million packages a day...You bet I insure everything of value.

jlg
January 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
Yes, Next Day Air

9mmepiphany
January 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
While I feel you pain for the loss, I do understand why UPS would treat it as a lost package.

1. A customer comes into a store with a sealed box and declares it as a firearm.
2. They believe him and charge for shipping using their policy for that item
3. They deliver a package to the address on the label
4. The customer (shipping) claims the contents of that package delivered are not the same as that originally packaged in the box.
5. They don't know what was originally in the box and for $100 they don't think it is worth contesting. They just pay the $100 and write it off to being a lost package.

Without having seen what was in the box to start with, how would any third party know what was shipped...that would rise it to a felony?

jlg
January 19, 2011, 02:08 PM
They could check the weight of the package...

MudPuppy
January 19, 2011, 02:20 PM
First, I really sympathize with your situation--I had a similar situation and was sick about what I was out, but it turned up. Free lesson about always popping for the insurance.

However, I disagree with your assertion that "UPS stole from you". An individual stole this item.

"But it was in there care, they're responsible"

Correct--which is why they have the details of what risk they accept. It's a $100 limit, if that's not agreeable, then either don't ship it or insure it.

I'm honestly more disturbed about the attitude you report from ATF/PD. I'd make noise on that front too.

I really, really hope you recover this item. And that whoever stole it is held accountable.

preachnhunt
January 19, 2011, 02:24 PM
How do you know it wasn't stolen at the receiving ffl after it was delivered?

btg3
January 19, 2011, 02:26 PM
This thread may be of interest...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=525140

Broken Anvil
January 19, 2011, 02:30 PM
Yea, I feel your pain. I ordered $150 worth of merchandise from CDNN Sports and Fed Ex "tracked" it to my front door. Said they put it on the porch. Didn't happen. I fought with Fed Ex for three days untill I was Fed Up and then called CDNN. They were great, mailed me out a new order and I got it in three days. Fed EX still didn't get a signature (required) this time. A week and a half later Fed Ex called me to tell me that they couldn't find my package.......duuuuhhhhh Between Fed UP and the US Postal Dis-service you're stuck with UPS. The key word is insurance......I insure for double the value and hope they lose it every time. Game on.

BigMustard
January 19, 2011, 02:35 PM
.I insure for double the value and hope they lose it every time. Game on.

Nicely played sir.

Hk Paul
January 19, 2011, 02:37 PM
I had a huge post about FedEx on another forum. Don't get me started.

However, a poster reccomend on there about a company called TNT. I do not know much about them, but he did say they call him every now and then asking "How they can make things better". It seems that this company has a grip on quality and a desire to give the customer what they want. Has anyone tried them?

jlg
January 19, 2011, 04:04 PM
I just called TNT...apparently they don't service Mississippi at this time.

btg3
January 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
......I insure for double the value and hope they lose it every time. Game on.
If I may ask, what's the score at this time?

FWIW, Fedex has been know to sign FOR the recipient. In one such case, the shipment went missing and the "signed" Proof-Of-Delivery was date/time stamped when the truck was miles away from the delivery address.

The driver was running late and wanted it to look like he had made the delivery on time.

We obtained a copy of the signature (by email) which was obviously fraudulent. Additionally, we know the truck route and, by chance, had remembered spotting the truck and driver on the other side of town at the time he had "signed" for the delivery to our address. I wonder if there might be a GPS tracking history that could have also been brought to bear on the matter?

PRM
January 19, 2011, 04:14 PM
I never ship anything over $100 in value without insurance. Less than that, I get delivery confirmation. Ebay taught me a good lesson ~ was it the mail or the customer who said their item never arrived??? Insurance is cheap compared to loss.

snubbies
January 19, 2011, 05:27 PM
As I recall the gun box was opened at the FFL's, by whom?? The gun was not in the box, firecrackers instead. Who would have had the opportunity to open the box, remove the gun, place the firecrackers in the box, reseal the box??? Is it logical or possible for a UPS employee to have accomplished this with other UPS employees in the vicinity?? What was the condition of the box when the buyer received it at the FFL's?? Is there any indications of a misdelivery?? What does the tracking information say about the stops the gun made on the way to the buyer??

browneu
January 19, 2011, 05:52 PM
I worked at UPS during college here in Columbus. It would be very hard to replace and steal something out of a box with all of the cameras in the place.

Another question that should be asked is if the package was taken to the UPS hub or at a place like the UPS store.

It's more likely that it could be opened, replaced, and resealed at a UPS store than an actual hub where the driver may pick up packages at certain times. I'm not sure but I believe that UPS require guns to be shipped from their hubs and not the stores.

Frank Ettin
January 19, 2011, 06:21 PM
Tracking down how a package's contents were stolen while in possession of the company is most definitely UPS's job. Who would ever accept anything else? Their job is to get items from point a to point b. If they aren't doing that, then they need to be working on figuring out what went wrong....That it may be prudent for UPS to investigate the incident is beside the point. It has no legal duty to the OP to do so. UPS has discharged its duties to the OP by paying the claim.

I suspect that UPS would investigate this sort of thing, and probably is investigating the incident. But that is a business matter for UPS. What UPS may be doing and what it may discover is not the OP's business. Of course, if UPS discovers evidence of criminal activity, it will no doubt provide same to the appropriate authorities.

351 WINCHESTER
January 19, 2011, 06:31 PM
You contracted with UPS to ship and deliver a gun and they failed to keep up their part of the contract. Why should you have to insure it in the first place? They lost it so they are liable. I would sue for all costs and let a judge decide.

Hanzo581
January 19, 2011, 06:46 PM
I was thinking, "Surely UPS won't steal from me."

UPS hires humans, and any human is capable of a crime. And 351 Winchester, that's not how business or life works...

dogtown tom
January 19, 2011, 06:47 PM
351 WINCHESTER You contracted with UPS to ship and deliver a gun and they failed to keep up their part of the contract. Why should you have to insure it in the first place? They lost it so they are liable. I would sue for all costs and let a judge decide.
You fail at law and should immediately watch reruns of Peoples Court & Judge Judy.

You are correct....it is a contract. But that contract also spells out exactly what happens if UPS fails to deliver as promised. He gets a $100.

Good luck finding a lawyer who would take this type of case....you would get laughed out of any law office bringing this type of complaint.

Always read the fine print. When you ship via common carrier (or mail via USPS) you are agreeing to THEIR terms, and THEIR policies (called tariffs). These tariffs explain in great detail what happens if your package is lost/damaged/stolen.

Don't like those policies? You'll need to find another carrier.

jlg
January 19, 2011, 06:52 PM
I'm not planning on sueing UPS.

I don't expect UPS to pay anymore than the contracted amount of $100.

I DO expect UPS to actual put some effort into finding my stolen merchandise before writing it off as a $100 loss...especially since said stolen merchandise is a firearm.

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me the fact that a firearm was stolen changes things a little.

I ship a fair amount of firearms...sometimes 5-6 a week. I have a UPS account and they pick the packages up from me. If I insured every package I sent I'd be out several thousand dollars a year...well more than the cost of this stolen firearm. I think most here have misunderstood my frustration.

I'm frustrated over the fact that a company I hired to safely deliver a package for me instead allowed it's contents to be stolen and rather than put any real effort into tracking it down decided it would be cheaper to just pay the $100 and move on. I'm a business man and I can understand this thinking - although it's horrible customer service, it's cheaper on the bottom line and it's not like they're going to lose me as a customer over it...I don't really have much of a shipping choice. The phone call from UPS went something like this, "We inspected the package you sent and agree with you that the package was opened, it's contents replaced, resealed and delivered. We are closing our investigation and sending you a freight claim form." So basically they told me, "Yep, you're right. We stole from you. NEXT!"

I'm also frustrated over the lack of interest from any law enforcement I've talked to. We now have a felon running around with a high capacity, short barreled rifle. But what are the chances of this felon ever committing another crime? Or committing a crime with this weapon? They're slim enough for us to sweep it under the rug...right?

You're law enforcement...let's enforce some laws. The fact that UPS has cameras everywhere ought to make this investigation easier. Check the cameras at all the locations the package passed through during the times it was there. If you don't find anything on camera start investigating the drivers...no cameras in the trucks.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that the FFL I shipped it to didn't steal the firearm. Interview him, check his inventory. Come interview me, check my inventory.

I understand that not every theft can be investigated...there just isn't the manpower to do it. But I believe ALL felonies should be investigated and if you're going to classify stealing a firearm as a felony then investigate and prosecute as such.

sig228
January 19, 2011, 07:00 PM
Jlg, first and foremost, really sorry for the lost item. 2 quick questions, I'm just curious:

1. Did you declare to the clerk that it was a handgun (not that you have to necessarily, that's a whole separate topic around here)

2. Was it addressed in such a way that might identify the contents (eg. "Bills Gun and Pawn")

I hope it turns up.

fastmtnbiker33w
January 19, 2011, 07:01 PM
Insuring for double the value.....now that's a novel idea.

I sure hope that weapon doesn't wind up in the hands of the jokers in my neck of the woods. It's way to easy to pray and spray with a firearm like that. With the millions of weapons that have been face-to-faced and stolen over the years, finding that thing with a serial number on it is probably about 0.0000001%.

Flintknapper
January 19, 2011, 07:08 PM
I can assure you, you'll get nowhere with UPS (pronounced OOPS).

I say this from experience. I was furious when a custom "slide" I had sent out for some work was stolen.

I talked to so many people in the company...it would make your head spin. Their position...to a person, was "we are very sorry", file a claim".

I DID have my item properly insured, but it really irks me they we so cavalier about it.

Apparently, some amount of thief-ery is expected and tolerated.

Taurus 66
January 19, 2011, 07:12 PM
Tracking down how a package's contents were stolen while in possession of the company is most definitely UPS's job. Who would ever accept anything else? Their job is to get items from point a to point b. If they aren't doing that, then they need to be working on figuring out what went wrong.

Does UPS have an Inspector General? If the answer is "No", why wouldn't a stolen package item become the responsibility of local/state law enforcement? UPS would have more limitations than law enforcement agencies in that their power goes to the level of "Customer ID, Omnex Number, Tracking Number, Insurance Recovery (if insurance was placed on the shipment), etc. After that it's pretty much out of their hands. If they never retrieve the lost/stolen item and it's a gun, local/state/federal law enforcement can keep the make, model, and serial number on record indefinitely.

Diggers
January 19, 2011, 07:25 PM
I can understand your frustration of course.

I think UPS probably wanted the public aspect of the problem to go away. Sorry but that's you. The cut you the 100 dollar check and hoped that would be that, publicly.

HOWEVER I would be really surprised if they truly left it at that. Having guns stolen during shipping could lead to some pretty bad PR for UPS if that got out into the media. I'm thinking they are investigating this no matter what they said to you and will deal with it as quietly as possible. Which probably doesn't involve the law. They just want to get rid of the person who is messing up their buisness.

As far as the ATF or PD goes...well guns get stolen ALL the time. thats nothing new to them. They aren't going to get excited about another report of a stolen gun. Its just too common and in the end its really just a property crime with no violence involved. No violence pretty much equals low priority these days.

I know its frustrating but thats how things tend to go.

9mmepiphany
January 19, 2011, 08:55 PM
I have to agree with Diggers, I highly doubt this is over as far as UPS is concerned...but they responsibility to you ended when they paid you the $100.

He is also correct about the ATF and the local PD. They've entered it into their system so that it will show as a stolen firearm should it come into contact with another LEO/Agency...it is only a property crime and will always have a lower priority than a crime against a person

Taurus 66
January 19, 2011, 09:11 PM
He is also correct about the ATF and the local PD. They've entered it into their system so that it will show as a stolen firearm should it come into contact with another LEO/Agency

I like that part.

SharpsDressedMan
January 19, 2011, 09:57 PM
The real bite on the butt is that we are ALL paying high rates for this "next day shipping" on handguns with UPS BECAUSE of previous thefts inside UPS BY UPS employees. It started big time on the east coast (near DC, in NJ, etc,), and UPS "fixed" the problem by reducing the time of the item in the system, making it harder for the theives to have opportunity. Instead of cleansing their ranks of theives, they just found a way to make more money off potential (and now current) victims. I would also get my money back for the shipping fee (what was it, $60-$100?), since they never completed the shipping transaction.

Bubbles
January 19, 2011, 10:08 PM
I ship a fair amount of firearms...sometimes 5-6 a week. I have a UPS account and they pick the packages up from me. If I insured every package I sent I'd be out several thousand dollars a year...well more than the cost of this stolen firearm. I think most here have misunderstood my frustration.
So tack on a few bucks extra in the shipping charges for the buyer to cover insurance and adult signature. Someone dropping $900 on a gun shouldn't balk at paying $10 for that service.

52grain
January 19, 2011, 10:10 PM
From the OP's multiple posts, it sounds like it's pretty obvious that the firearm went missing while in UPS' possession and UPS has admitted as much.

Does the UPS tariff differentiate between a package that was obviously stolen while in UPS' possession and a package that was simply lost? I suspect that there isn't because most of the time it would be difficult to distinguish.

UPS can be sloppy. My parents have had several packages that were adult signature only that they allowed minors to sign for or left on the porch. All of the shipping companies loose packages though. It happens. Buy insurance. Include it in your shipping and handling charges if you have to.

edit to add: If I were to make a large purchase from a small business that had to be shipped to me, I would insist that it be insured for fear that they couldn't stand the loss.

wep45
January 19, 2011, 10:17 PM
1. you played cheap on the insurance and got burnt.

2. how do you know that it wasnt taken at the other ffl?

btg3
January 19, 2011, 10:34 PM
I've yet to see a large business not impacted by inside theft. Cleansing the ranks is not realistic, in my view. There are some technology solutions to prevent theft, but at what cost? Regardless, the requirement for overnight shipping along with other aspects of handgun transactions is a form of 2A infringement, is it not?

Bhamrichard
January 19, 2011, 10:54 PM
UPS stole my gunEdit: UPS stole the gun I failed to ship properly

There fixed it for ya.

DenaliPark
January 19, 2011, 11:06 PM
I recently made a trade with someone out of state. I shipped him a NIB Bushmaster 97S Carbon-15 Pistol. It's a 7.5" AR15 without a buttstock. They are very hard to get a hold of and not cheap at all.

When the box arrived at the other FFL the gun was missing and a box of fireworks had been put into the box.

Local Police and ATF basically told me that because it is just one gun they probably won't do anything about it.

After just a couple of days UPS called me and said, "We have been unable to find your lost package and since you didn't pay for extra insurance we will be sending you a check for $100." Apparently UPS can steal from you and call it a lost package...even if the package was delivered with the wrong contents.

What angers me more than the loss of $900 is the fact that no one seems to care that a firearm was stolen.:fire: UPS barely put any effort into tracking it down and figured it would just be easier to pay $100 and move on.

Stealing a firearm is a felony. So basically we now have a felon walking around with a firearm that meets almost every "evil" criteria that the government wants to ban (short barrel, flash suppressor, 30-round magazine, pistol grip, detachable magazine)...and nobody cares.

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/catalog/c15_large/AZ-C15P97S_l.jpg

But, on a positive note, the ATF did tell me, "If he ever uses it in a crime we'll be able to track the serial number and know that it was stolen." So that makes me feel much better.:banghead:
Sucks that you lost your firearm, sucks even more that you failed to insure it! Likely, your scrimping on an additional $6.00 cost you hundreds....

oneounceload
January 19, 2011, 11:11 PM
1. you played cheap on the insurance and got burnt.

2. how do you know that it wasnt taken at the other ffl?

We have a winner.....why would anyone ship a $900 gun and not spend the extra $5-6 is beyond amazement.

I worked at UPS one summer when I was a teacher - back when handguns went ground all the time. I knew the names of the shippers, but most don't - we also had to walk through a security checkpoint at the sort facility - so either the driver swapped things before the sort, or the driver on the other end did - again assuming the FFL didn't. ALL packages are scanned into the facility, while in the facility and then again upon being put on the truck for departure for shipping. The same things happen on the other end at the destination

Bonesinium
January 19, 2011, 11:17 PM
If it truly did arrive repackaged with fireworks and not the firearm, then one person who would have access, potential knowledge, and the time and resources to swap it, would be the driver who delivered it. You said it was shipped to an FFL. Was this FFL a gun shop? A driver making a delivery to a gun shop has a pretty good idea what he might be delivering. It wouldn't take them long to, while on their route, open up the package to see what was in it, then swap it with something else and seal it back up. Sketchy but a possibility.

Xfire68
January 19, 2011, 11:21 PM
If you had insured it I bet it would not have been lost/stolen! If UPS was on the hook for $1500 then they would be searching for that gun high and low and the person that stole it would know that it's more likely that there would be more of a investigation when the item is insured for a large amount of money.


I learned the hard way to never send anything your not willing to eat without insurance! I don't ship anything over $100 without it.

Hanzo581
January 19, 2011, 11:28 PM
That's a good point, I'd imagine they figure if you didn't care enough to insure it why should they care when they're only out a hundred bucks.

dogtown tom
January 19, 2011, 11:51 PM
jlg:....I ship a fair amount of firearms...sometimes 5-6 a week. I have a UPS account and they pick the packages up from me. If I insured every package I sent I'd be out several thousand dollars a year...well more than the cost of this stolen firearm....

Do you have dealer insurance coverage?

I have a dealer policy and it covers my shipments (UPS/FedEx/USPS) as long as the package is shipped with Signature Required.


Unlike TV shows, it is rare for a federal agency or even a local PD to drop everything and raid the UPS depot to catch the crook.
In many cities local PD won't even show up in person at a non injury traffic accident or auto burglery, instead asking the victim to come in and fill out a report.:mad:

UPS/FedEx/USPS have cameras and eventually will catch employees who are thieves. You don't know what UPS Loss Prevention is doing right now.....I would bet they will not show their hand until they have a suspect.

Sistema1927
January 20, 2011, 12:01 AM
If everything always went OK there would be no need for insurance.

A lesson, expensive, but a lesson none the less.

marv
January 20, 2011, 12:10 AM
FWIW if I ship a customer's trashed out injection pump to a Diesel shop for rebuild I insure it for the price of a brand new one. If UPS loses it that's what I'll have to give the customer.
If anything is insured for over $1K the driver has to give it "special handling".

Blue Jays
January 20, 2011, 12:40 AM
Similar to techniques employed by others, I regularly double the value of insured items.
Loss of an item may hurt in terms of sentimental value...yet would be my winning lottery ticket.
That is exactly how I view it, too. Buying the insurance is just a chance at big lottery payoff.

theory
January 20, 2011, 12:46 AM
Virtually all UPS vehicles have GPS tracking tied into the package delivery system and handhelds. It should be quite easy to find out where your gun went.

Flintknapper
January 20, 2011, 01:48 AM
theory wrote:


Virtually all UPS vehicles have GPS tracking tied into the package delivery system and handhelds. It should be quite easy to find out where your gun went.

Nope!

It should easy to determine where the PACKAGE went. The same thing happened to him...that happened to me. Except in my case...they delivered an empty package with one end obviously cut open and dangling.

In both cases the PACKAGE got there, but the merchandise did not (or was swapped).

Also, the OP is aware HE did not insure the item as he should have, that is not the central issue with him. He is more concerned about the firearm being stolen and UPS' attitude about it.

I experienced the same thing. I can assure you, a firearm or firearm parts will NEVER show back up or be found. For the most part UPS does a pretty decent job, but they have some thieves, plain and simple.

rondog
January 20, 2011, 01:51 AM
Something about this doesn't smell right.....is here any way anybody in the chain could have known what was in the box? Seems unlikely somebody would just open a random package to see if there was anything worth stealing in it, but if they knew, or suspected what it might be, that's another story. And putting in fireworks? That's just wierd. Why not just rocks? Something about this stinketh, I'd be mighty suspicious of the receiving FFL, or an employee there.

Sure, shipping employees steal things, so do airline baggage handlers, now THAT'S a real den of thieves! But this seems too unlikely to me for just a random "hmmm, I wonder what's in this one, think I'll have a lookie". You said you declared it as a firearm, does UPS "flag" packages like that in their system somehow? So everybody knows it's a gun?

Call the Brady Bunch and tell 'em all about it, stress that you're "afraid for the children", and let 'em sic their dogs on the trail. They can put their moonbat donations to good use to track down that nasty, illegal, stolen gun that's surely going to be used in the next rampage.

BTW, that's a cool looking pistol, bet it's a hoot to play with! And I offer my condolences for your loss and the whole situation.

splithoof
January 20, 2011, 02:01 AM
Are you 100% sure the FFL party on the other end is not suspect? It would be nice to believe that others with our same interests are all honest, but the reality is that not all are. Just look at what "shooters & gun folks" have done to trash public lands in the name of recreation.

ColtPythonElite
January 20, 2011, 02:19 AM
Insuring for double and then making a claim for double sounds like fraud to me.

9mmepiphany
January 20, 2011, 05:35 AM
Insuring for double and then making a claim for double sounds like fraud to me.
Actually it isn't. What you are saying when you buy the insurance is what the item is worth to you. What you are saying if they lose you item is that you are making a claim based on the insurance that you paid for.

It is just like insuring any collectible that can be lost or broken

Guns and more
January 20, 2011, 09:52 AM
Im sorry but what were you thinking when you didnt buy the insurance.
It's a sad commentary on America when it's the victims fault for not assuming his package would be stolen.

billybob44
January 20, 2011, 10:18 AM
It's a sad commentary on America when it's the victims fault for not assuming his package would be stolen.
^^^+1...This is Very true. Makes the things that WE were taught, growing up, mean less, doesn't it??

jlg
January 20, 2011, 10:34 AM
I really appreciate all the posts letting me know how important insurance is. To think all this time I was unaware of its purpose. I have been enlightened. Thank you.;) I fully understand the importance of insurance and if I only shipped one package every once in a while I would pay the extra $ for it. However, I don't see how paying several thousand dollars a year for insurance on the off chance that one package goes missing is financially prudent.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned anything about money in my original post.:banghead:

I haven't completely ruled out the receiving FFL storefront as being suspect and as I mentioned earlier I think law enforcement should interview/investigate them. I also believe they should interview/investigate me. I know I didn't steal it...but they don't.

90% of what I ship out is guns. 90% of what the recieving FFL store receives is guns. The drivers know this. The receiving FFL has both the words "Guns" and "Ordnance" in his business name also giving a clue to anyone aside from the driver. In the future I will just put the initials of both my company and the receiver company to keep from clueing anyone in on what's in the box.

I have definitely learned a few lessons from this...doesn't take away from the frustration.

If we won't crack down on crime and broken laws that involve firearms what good will making new laws do? But all of us on this forum already know the answer to that question.

rondog
January 20, 2011, 10:35 AM
Insuring for double and then making a claim for double sounds like fraud to me.

But employees stealing from the packages is OK? Insuring for double the value isn't fraud, but if you make sure the package "gets lost" and then file a claim, that is.

highorder
January 20, 2011, 10:37 AM
If it truly did arrive repackaged with fireworks and not the firearm, then one person who would have access, potential knowledge, and the time and resources to swap it, would be the driver who delivered it. You said it was shipped to an FFL. Was this FFL a gun shop? A driver making a delivery to a gun shop has a pretty good idea what he might be delivering. It wouldn't take them long to, while on their route, open up the package to see what was in it, then swap it with something else and seal it back up. Sketchy but a possibility.

Are you 100% sure the FFL party on the other end is not suspect?

I had the same two thoughts.

The regular driver that serviced the FFL I worked for was a great guy; one day we had a replacement driver and you could see his eyes get big when loading all the packages we had going out... his eyes looked like dollar signs.

The simplest answer, sadly, is that the receiving FFL ripped you off. They were doing a transfer, right? Maybe someone thought they could snag some nice hardware and just pass the buck back upstream...

Bubbles
January 20, 2011, 10:54 AM
Insuring for double and then making a claim for double sounds like fraud to me.
Except when a gun goes missing an FFL isn't just out the cost of the gun. He's also out the time needed to file a police report, submit paperwork to the ATF, track down a replacement firearm or issue a refund to the customer, etc.

feedthehogs
January 20, 2011, 11:22 AM
Anyone engaged in proper business practices always includes costs like insurance in their prices or trades or at the very least offers the buyer the option to purchase.

Anyone who is surprised that stuff gets stolen is naive. Its the facts. Its been the facts for as long as shipping has been going on.

Demanding that someone find your missing firearm is silly. There are to many people involved including yourself who could have very easily put the fireworks in there themselves.

The thread title should read, "lessons learned when shipping a firearm"

bikemutt
January 20, 2011, 11:30 AM
Forensically, the fireworks may have a story to tell. At least around here, the only place we can buy them is from seasonal stores on the reservations. It's a long shot but maybe it wouldn't be impossible to figure out where they may be purchased thereby eliminating, or implicating someone in the custody chain.

Actually, using fireworks as a proxy for the gun after stealing it has me puzzled as all get out. I'd use dirt or rocks, or at least something untraceable and easily obtained. Using fireworks to replace firearms almost seems taunting.

frankenstein406
January 20, 2011, 11:50 AM
Call UPS and see if anyone is missing a package of fireworks, if not you have your answer.

jlg
January 20, 2011, 12:25 PM
Anyone engaged in proper business practices always includes costs like insurance in their prices or trades or at the very least offers the buyer the option to purchase.

I don't see how insurance has anything to do with "proper business practices". :confused: I immediately ordered a replacement firearm and shipped it out to my customer.

Since this was a trade, there was no money exchanging hands. How I choose to get my package to him and whether or not I choose to insure it has nothing to do with him or "proper business practices".

My "proper business practice" is to keep my costs as low as possible so I can save my customers money. One of the ways I do that is not spend my money on unneccessary things.

Insurance is not a necessity. Buying insurance is betting that something bad is going to happen and not wanting to pay for it when it does. I choose instead to save my money and just pay for it when the occasional bad thing does happen.

So far, I'm way ahead as far as money saved vs money lost.


And I'm not suprised that something got stolen. I'm suprised at the apathy of UPS, ATF and law enforcement. None went farther than filing a report. No investigation has even been attempted. I understand you may not be able to find the crook...but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least give it an attempt not just write a report. It's the local news' job to report on the news - law enforcement should do something about it.

ColtPythonElite
January 20, 2011, 12:37 PM
How do you know law enforcement isn't following up on it?

Guns and more
January 20, 2011, 12:42 PM
I haven't completely ruled out the receiving FFL storefront as being suspect
Or the seller either. How do you know he actually sent the gun?
How do you know law enforcement isn't following up on it?
Well, yeah, if someone walks into a police station with it, they might follow up.
As far as actually working a case? Get serious.

jlg
January 20, 2011, 01:08 PM
How do you know law enforcement isn't following up on it?
Because the only contact they've made with me was to take a report and they haven't contacted the receiving FFL at all.

jlg
January 20, 2011, 01:09 PM
Or the seller either. How do you know he actually sent the gun?

I know the seller sent the gun because I am the seller. But the police don't know for a fact that I sent it and it wouldn't bother me in the least if they looked into it...in fact, I expected they would.

Bubbles
January 20, 2011, 02:52 PM
Back in the 1980's the ATF/FBI/VA LE investigated thefts from a particular firearm manufacturer by a specific UPS delivery driver. Most of the guns ended up in NY. The authorities gathered evidence for two years so that they could not only bust him, but the criminals who were receiving and reselling the stolen firearms. So, just because you're not seeing any movement on a case doesn't mean nothing is being done.

That said, if this is the first time you've ever had a problem with a shipped firearm consider yourself lucky. We had one last December almost go awry when it was shipped USPS with no insurance or tracking number - it was a snub-nosed .22 revolver stuffed in one of those VHS flat-rate shipping boxes, and it had fallen off a counter and another box got shoved in front of it. We spent several hours at the PO finding that one thanks to an FFL who didn't want to cough up $5 for insurance and signature even though the customer paid for that service.

Then just yesterday a UPS substitute delivery driver (not our normal driver - he's a customer and knows better) dropped a very pricey rifle on the front porch in the rain, and took off, while no one was home to receive it. This was an insured adult-signature required package, and yeah, we reported it to UPS. Fortunately the rifle was in a case and is fine.

Now, where are my BP meds...

figment
January 20, 2011, 03:09 PM
If I understand the account correctly, my guess would be the point of origin being the most suspect. I have had "funny stuff" happen when shipping from a UPS store in a strip shopping center. When you tell the guy it is a fire-arm, after you leave... think about it.

I NEVER ship without declaring a value I would like to be paid if there is a loss. I've heard UPS takes forever to pay on losses. I've never had a loss other than stolen information via credit card number sealed in the box to pay for repairs. Wont do that again.

hirundo82
January 20, 2011, 05:39 PM
It's a sad commentary on America when it's the victims fault for not assuming his package would be stolen.

Having the item inside get swapped out for something else is rare, but UPS handles over 15 million packages daily--over 4 billion packages per year. When you have that kind of volume, things happen--packages get lost, destroyed, etc. That's why UPS offers insurance.

It is in UPS's best interest to make sure the packages arrive intact (they would make more money on the insurance, for one thing), but that isn't completely under their control. It is only prudent to spend a few dollars for insurance if you are shipping a valuable item.

sig228
January 20, 2011, 11:29 PM
My "proper business practice" is to keep my costs as low as possible so I can save my customers money. One of the ways I do that is not spend my money on unneccessary things.

I'm confused. Are you an FFL? You ship 5-6 guns per week, that's a lot if you are not an FFL. If you are, you are not required to ship overnight, correct? So why waste the $$?

Ruger Redhawk
January 20, 2011, 11:47 PM
I know this doesn't have the value of what jlg had stolen. Believe me I can feel his pain. I ordered three pocket holsters.They were shipped USPS Priority mail on Jan 7th and I still haven't received them. Now they are going to investigate it. No telling if or when I'll ever see my holsters. It was free shipping with a over 50.00 order. I have no idea if they insured it or not. Someone needs to cough up some holsters.

Good luck jlg. I hope you got the FBI involved. That's federal interstate shipments.

xr1200
January 20, 2011, 11:59 PM
Sorry you lost the gun, but you should have bought the insurance, for a few dollars you would have been covered.

snubbies
January 21, 2011, 07:48 AM
I think the seller in the instant case knows he should have bought insurance but to not buy is his choice. I think the advice or counsel he is looking for is the recovery of the gun. Stop beating up on him. As a dealer I choose to insure all shipments for the value of the gun. That cost is included in the shipping cost. But again my choice.

dogtown tom
January 21, 2011, 12:32 PM
snubbies I think the seller in the instant case knows he should have bought insurance but to not buy is his choice. I think the advice or counsel he is looking for is the recovery of the gun. Stop beating up on him. As a dealer I choose to insure all shipments for the value of the gun. That cost is included in the shipping cost. But again my choice.

I wouldn't be too sure that if it is recovered he would get the gun back.....he accepted a settlement from UPS.

You don't get both.



.

frankenstein406
January 21, 2011, 12:39 PM
Call and see if there missing a package of fireworks, if not the gun shop switched it.

Guns and more
January 21, 2011, 01:00 PM
I have had "funny stuff" happen when shipping from a UPS store in a strip shopping center. When you tell the guy it is a fire-arm, after you leave... think about it.
UPS stores won't accept firearms.
I know the seller sent the gun because I am the seller.
MY bad, I thought you were the buyer.

Art Eatman
January 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
Enough. This thread is now mostly repetitive same-old same-old...

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