Cylinder Moving Out Of Lock When Closed


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Animal Mother
January 20, 2011, 11:10 PM
I recently purchased a very lightly used Taurus 96 .22 LR and it arrived today at my dealer and after an inspection I took it home. After a bit of cleaning I noticed something that has me a bit concerned. When the gun is closed and when it is in lockup, there is a just a bit of rotational cylinder play to the left or right, just a hair, between 1/32 inch and 1/64 inch. I judged this to be acceptable, its a little bit more play than my Rossi .357, but it seems fine. Double action trigger is very comfortable, right about 6.25 lbs (I measured it with some freeweights and wire). There is no front to back cylinder wiggle (end-shake).

What worries me is this: When the hammer is down and the cylinder is closed, with moderate hand pressure I can cause the cylinder to rotate about a 1/4 inch in one direction, its not enough to move the cylinder to a different chamber, but more like the cylinder stop isn't catching the cylinder completely. When I cock the hammer or pull the trigger the cylinder moves back into alignment. The only occurs with two cylinders. When the gun is in lockup, hammer back, I cannot do this.

Is this a situation that would require immediate repair or is it acceptable if I have no problems with lead shaving or accuracy?

UPDATE - This thread seems to describe a similar situation, where cleaning is advised: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536939 I'll give that a shot, and post an update.

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oldfool
January 21, 2011, 07:55 AM
I recently purchased a very lightly used Taurus 96 .22 LR and it arrived today at my dealer and after an inspection I took it home. After a bit of cleaning I noticed something that has me a bit concerned. When the gun is closed and when it is in lockup, there is a just a bit of rotational cylinder play to the left or right, just a hair, between 1/32 inch and 1/64 inch. I judged this to be acceptable, its a little bit more play than my Rossi .357, but it seems fine. Double action trigger is very comfortable, about 8 lbs. There is no front to back cylinder wiggle (end-shake).

What worries me is this: When the hammer is down and the cylinder is closed, with moderate hand pressure I can cause the cylinder to rotate about a 1/4 inch in one direction, its not enough to move the cylinder to a different chamber, but more like the cylinder stop isn't catching the cylinder completely. When I cock the hammer or pull the trigger the cylinder moves back into alignment. The only occurs with two cylinders. When the gun is in lockup, hammer back, I cannot do this.

Is this a situation that would require immediate repair or is it acceptable if I have no problems with lead shaving or accuracy?

UPDATE - This thread seems to describe a similar situation, where cleaning is advised: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536939 I'll give that a shot, and post an update.
referenced thread advice from David E, RC, old fuff, et.al. certainly highlights prime suspicion...
used gun, little used and lot lot stored maybe for a long time, maybe just needs a very through cleaning, especially the cylinder stop detents, and "bolt" that engages.. be sure that spring loaded "bolt" to engage cylinder detents is very free, not sticky, sharp edges, and that there is no residue in the cylinder detent cuts (look really really close, use a magnifying glass, especially given you say it is only apparent on two of the six)... CLP is your friend

note that closing cylinder by hand never truly "locks" the cylinder, if cylinder happens to close in between detents, it will not "lock" until rotated a tad. I think (?) most folks tend to rotate a cylinder subconsciously/unintentionally on closing, that tends to be natural and almost difficult to not do, but can easily do if trying to do... cylinder will rotate and lock when hammer pulled back, via SA or DA, and full "lockup" is really achieved when hammer is pulled back to about halfway position

a very little sideplay wiggle in cylinder is normal, though should be a little less sideplay when hammer is cocked (in SA or DA) in full lockup.. if pull hammer back only 1/3 way, notice you can rotate cylinder pretty freely by hand, even right on by cylinder detents

"hammer is down and the cylinder is closed, with moderate hand pressure I can cause the cylinder to rotate about a 1/4 inch in one direction"... implying direction opposite of action cylinder rotation, I presume..
no that's not right, not supposed to move, just wiggle a tad

hopefully a good cleaning to free up locking bolt and remove any residue from cylinder detents will resolve that, as was suggested in referenced thread

that it locks up tight on full cock is a real good sign

let us know

PS
be real sure you look closely and clean real well under top strap at forcing cone, and front face of cylinder/ forcing cone face
(there is always some endshake in a locked action, though so little as to feel obvious is a good thing)
if there be any old/hard residue in places not obvious, those are good places to look closer at, especially if feel even slightest signs of cylinder drag in DA trigger
(I have a k-17 with so little endshake that powder residue will cause some cylinder drag after 100-150 rounds if face not simply wiped off with CLP spritized patch, and kept clean is "everything to love" in a DA 22)

GP100man
January 21, 2011, 08:33 AM
As stated look at the lock slots & lug for bashing (movement of metal) & debris

While cleanin remove the screw on the frame under the front of the cyl(this screw is longer than the other plate screws) ,you then can remove the cyl/crane asm. it`ll have a spring plunger asm in it that pushes on the cyl locking lug , mine was gooped with what looked like dried cosmoline , I cleaned the recess & spring/plunger "stretched' the spring a little to increase it`s pressure a little . After reassembly there should be some spring pressure on the cyl lock lug , but remember the more pressure there is the more prominent the turn ring will become & be sure of free movement .

What `s so ironic is mine started misfiring & I found the firing pin & return spring almost rusted into place ???

After the firing pin thing I disassembled every part that I possibly could ,short of unscrewing the barrel from the frame to inspect/clean/lube it completely!!

I bought mine NIB & it was old stock , it does`nt even have a lock in the hammer !

It`s accurate little 22 revolver & the girls enjoy it better (easier & qwiker to load) than the single six.

NMGonzo
January 21, 2011, 11:31 AM
My new to me gp did that.

I found original grease in the trigger group, all brown with the sands of time.

Clean that thing.

dogngun
January 22, 2011, 08:52 AM
If you remove the cylinder, clean the parts thoroughly and spray LOTS of CLP in there till it drains clean. When you reassemble, use locktight on the screw holding the cylinder crane in place and tighten it well. They sometimes back out slightly and loosen the cylinder very slightly. Also, check the unloaded cylinder for side play when the trigger is pulled and held in the rear (fired) position...It should be at its tightest then.

I have no experience with Taurus revolvers, but I have my second Rossi right now, and I love them.

mark

Animal Mother
January 22, 2011, 10:08 AM
UPDATE: Fixed!

I took everyone's advice and give the pistol as complete of a teardown as I could and cleaned every nook and crannie. The problem wasn't gunk in the internals but actually the bolt spring (at least that is what I think it is called). When I removed the screw located in front of the trigger guard on on the bottom of the pistol (set at a 45 degree angle) that screw released a tiny spring and rod that were connected. It looked to me like someone had trimmed some coils off of this, which is funny because none of the screws are buggered and everything else looks untouched. This bolt spring actually looks like a miniature takedown detent and spring from an AR-15 lower.

Well I can't get the part from Numrich, and I may be able to get it from Taurus without having to send my pistol in. So what I did was I cut the head off of a finishing nail and inserted it in the channel between the frame screw and the bolt spring so that it will take up the slack from missing coils and therefore put a put a bit more pressure on the cylinder stop. The revolver now stays in lock on all cylinders, and functions normally. I'll call Taurus and see if I can't get them to send me a replacement, because while this works, I'd rather have factory parts in the gun and not my own rigging.

One of the problems is that the part that I assume is the bolt spring is not shown in its proper orientation in the schematic either in the Taurus Manual (page 21, part 22) http://www.taurususa.com/pdf/revolver-manual.pdf or on Numrich's site (part 21) http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=9159 This may not even be the correct part at all. If anyone has an original manual or knows what this part is called so that I can order it, I'd really appreciate it. Again, thanks for all the advice, if this gun is half as accurate as it looks, I'm going to love it.

oldfool
January 22, 2011, 10:42 AM
pretty sure that is bolt spring p/n 581280B cost $3.20, but...
but alas, numrich no stock. even though they have the bolts
FWIW same part in a Taurus model 66 old model, and probably a few others of same era
(weird though , being snipped short, that anybody would do that unless they took it apart and lost original spring.. not something many ever need disassemble)

pleased though, that you have it cleaned up and locking up proper

now.... a RANGE REPORT is owed :)


PS
sidenote user tip, mainspring is coil spring, if ever get light hammer strikes, just remove grips and check that slotted takeup nut on the bottom threaded end of spring rod
there is supposed to be a teeny tiny cotter pin thru that nut/rod end, but mine got disappeared by somebody before I got my hands on it
maybe somebody thunk to lighten trigger , backed it off, lost that bitty pin, I dunno, but I never get around to picking up something at hardware store to pin it (no point in patching the roof when it ain't raining, you know), so about once a brick it backs itself off a tad, start getting a few light hits and I take the grips off and tighten it up a tad

also beware of removing rear sight, the tiny coil spring under that gives real serious meaning to "tiny", but I still got mine

Animal Mother
January 25, 2011, 08:59 PM
Well OF, here's the promised range report.

Range Report:
Well, I took the revolver out this weekend to see how she’d do but unfortunately I had some real trouble with it. I could not get a single cylinder full of ammunition to fire without a misfire. It’s a real shame, as the gun itself is great, nice balance, good sights, super trigger, accurate, but not reliable.
At first I tried firing Federal Bulk Pack out of it with the adjustable trigger set on its lightest setting which is right around 6.25 pounds but I only got 4 out of 6 cylinders to fire. I thought perhaps I had the trigger set too lightly, so I adjusted it to the maximum tension, which took the trigger up to about 12 lbs, but it had no effect on the ignition rate. I dug out almost all of my 22 ammo and tried ten different varieties and never got a full cylinder to fire, the closest I came was 5 out of 6 for Federal AutoMatch and Remington Subsonic. Other brands varied from between 2 and 4 cylinders firing and the only consistency was inconsistency. The brands I attempted were as follows:

Aguila Super Colibri
Winchester XPert 22
Winchester 555
Winchester Super X Subsonic
CCI Stinger
CCI Mini-Mag
Remington Golden Bullet
Remington Subsonic
Federal Champion 510
Federal Bulk Pack
Federal AutoMatch

The accuracy of the pistol was very good, by the time I got around to checking accuracy I was very aggravated and wasn’t doing my best shooting, but grouping was very consistent, and at about 8 yards in poor light with mixed ammo I was able to keep my shots in about a inch and half group using a shooting stick. It shot a little high and to the right, but I’m sure I can adjust the sights to take that into account. After about 50 rounds extraction was a bit difficult, but I never had to resort to using anything other than my hands to eject the spent casings. That just could be how a 22 revolver works, as I haven’t shot one in years, or more likely its due to using the Super Colibris which are a bit shorter than a standard 22 LR, and would leave residue in the chambers that I put the longer 22 LR rounds into.

Unless anyone knows of anything that I could try that would fix this myself, I’m going to have to send the revolver into Taurus and see if they can repair it. We’ll see how long it takes and if they actually fix the problem. I’ve heard mixed reviews on Taurus’s customer service, so we’ll see. I really, really, hope they can fix it, as I really like this thing and want to love it.
--
Here’s an image of the inside of the frame where you can see the firing pin, it’s slightly off center but seems to be flush with the frame. I thought it might be an issue with the firing pin being too short, but if its flush with the frame, I don’t think that is likely.
http://media.use.com/images/s_1/3deb8b8e7015fa74732d.jpg (http://www.use.com/3deb8b8e7015fa74732d)
--
Here’s an image of the cylinder, there are a lot of machining and tooling marks on the face of the cylinder, and I don’t know if this is normal. Some of the indentations seem to match up with the firing pin, but I can’t imagine the firing pin could leave those kinds of marks, and I don’t see any damage to the chamber walls. Also I’d expect to see that on a hard used gun but the internals and externals (with the exception of this part) seem very close to pristine.
http://media.use.com/images/s_1/83e37219e51e99ab85e3.jpg (http://www.use.com/83e37219e51e99ab85e3)
--
Here’s an image of the mainspring, you can see that I’ve adjusted the screw that changes the angle on the mainspring (thereby changing the trigger pull) to the maximum pressure, but it didn’t seem to have any effect on my ignition rate.
http://media.use.com/images/s_1/4d4b7c4ec30a3075164a.jpg (http://www.use.com/4d4b7c4ec30a3075164a)
--
Here’s another close-up of my cylinder, with some spent casings. You’ll notice the tooling marks on the face of the cylinder and the very light strikes on the casings. These casings were removed and reinserted so the position of the marks are not consistent.
http://media.use.com/images/s_1/b5938de26573edf779f0.jpg (http://www.use.com/b5938de26573edf779f0)

aryfrosty
January 25, 2011, 09:36 PM
First thing that caught my eye was the word "Taurus". I just bought, I know....dumb me...a Judge Ultra lite and noticed as soon as I got it home that if the trigger is barely touched the cylinder lock bolt falls far enough out of the notch on the cylinder that the cylinder will turn backwards. It won't turn the other way. I hate to tell Taurus that any play is way too much.

788Ham
January 25, 2011, 11:35 PM
I looked at a brand new revolver like this one yesterday, dang near bought it! Thanks guys for having this thread on here, you've saved me some money and anger. I've also got a new 8" vise, but glad I don't have to put the Taurus in it! LOL

Buck Snort
January 26, 2011, 09:38 AM
Oh, its a long tale of woe concerning the Taurus gun company. Hey guys, you get what you pay for. Save up your money and buy a quality handgun and this kind of thing won't be happening (at least not at the rate we see from Taurus, Rossi, etc. )

NMGonzo
January 26, 2011, 06:55 PM
Oh, its a long tale of woe concerning the Taurus gun company. Hey guys, you get what you pay for. Save up your money and buy a quality handgun and this kind of thing won't be happening (at least not at the rate we see from Taurus, Rossi, etc. )

Buy it where you can get your money back.

I've been lucky with zero problems from Taurus.

murf
January 26, 2011, 10:54 PM
you need a new firing pin. look at the picture of the back of the cylinder without the cases. looks like the firing pin has been beating the heck out of the back of the cylinder. see all those rectangular marks all around the cylinder. the firing pin is probably peened back and too short. you may want to replace the cylinder, too. a local smith can probably fix it easier than the factory if that is the problem. that's my guess.

murf

David E
January 27, 2011, 12:23 AM
The only occurs with two cylinders.

As a matter of proper nomenclature, unless your revolver is a convertible, then it only has one cylinder. In that cylinder there are bored chambers, where the cartridges go.

Using the correct terminology makes sure everyone is on the same page.

Animal Mother
January 27, 2011, 05:57 PM
David E, you are right, and I should have caught that. I ended up scratching through that description and writing in "chamber" on the work order I sent out today along with the revolver to Taurus. We'll see how long it will take to fix. If FedEx doesn't steal it, and Taurus has the parts and skill to repair it, I'll be happy.

oldfool
January 28, 2011, 06:42 AM
well that just plain sucks

the combination of issues with that one (first the oddball spring, and the way that cylinder face is beat to hellandgone) do thinly suggest someone who had it prior did things to it that ought not be done, but we will never know
probably hammering away with cylinder way way bad out of time, damage to firing pin, damage to cylinder, and (maybe it's just the picture), but the extractor star where the hand lifts/rotates cylinder looks about half screwed up too

I have never seen a cylinder face beat up like that, tooling (???) marks :(

condolences

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