atf ruling announced at shot shot coming on monday?


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Jon Coppenbarger
January 23, 2011, 09:59 AM
Did not see this posted yet by the moderators or did I miss it and if I am just repeating something posted earlier please delete.
On the 19th at the shot show the atf stated that they would be coming out with a new ruling on shotguns and what would be allowed under the use of a sporting shotgun and not a destructive device.

We all remember the ruling on the last ones which had large detactible mags for shotguns. (usas 12)
so the 24th which is just a few short hours aways we should learn whats up?

So could the lastest trend in shotguns like the saiga or new kel-tec be or?

posted it here as it was announced at shot!

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TexasRifleman
January 23, 2011, 10:27 AM
I'm guessing the Saiga will be toast from this. Kel Tec plans to produce their shotgun domestically I believe so it won't touch that.

Sam1911
January 23, 2011, 10:38 AM
Oh the irony AGONY if they were to announce that the new Rampaging Judge is "sporting" but a Saiga 12 isn't.

I don't own either, but there's just something wrong with the world ...

Old Fuff
January 23, 2011, 10:57 AM
Sam:

There is Never, Ever any positive relationship between logic and the BATF&E when it comes to a firearms ruling. :banghead:

W L Johnson
January 23, 2011, 10:57 AM
Lovely, just Lovely
A saiga shotgun has been on my Christmas list, but even if the ATF doesn't do a thing just the rumor of them doing something will drive the prices through the roof. If you can find one now that is! :banghead:

Sam1911
January 23, 2011, 11:02 AM
but even if the ATF doesn't do a thing just the rumor of them doing something will drive the prices through the roofExactly my thoughts as well.

And, part of why I hate to even see rumors of actions posted. We have no information yet, but the speculation is affecting even those of us who weren't in the market for any of these at this point.

Maybe we should all start speculating that the ATF is going to announce that they're giving up enforcing any Destructive Device classifications on firearms that can fire shotshells. Wonder if we could drive prices down?

Derek Zeanah
January 23, 2011, 11:11 AM
I know nothing official, but the scuttlebutt was that Saiga was going to be in trouble because of this.

RX-178
January 23, 2011, 11:26 AM
Likewise nothing official here, but the fact that ATI was JUST given an import A-OK on the Akdal Arms 1919 shotgun from the ATF not a more than few days before the SHOT show makes this confusing.

A source from WITHIN the ATF, but nobody of any official standing said that he thinks it's because of Norinco's trench gun that includes a functional bayonet lug, which is apparently an import no-no.

jerkface11
January 23, 2011, 11:35 AM
Well the ruling could be a good thing.

W L Johnson
January 23, 2011, 11:42 AM
Can you explain why you think that could be a good thing.

jerkface11
January 23, 2011, 11:44 AM
They may decide that MORE guns are sporting. That would be a good thing.

W L Johnson
January 23, 2011, 11:49 AM
So you're saying they could go in the opposite direction of what the rumor is, I can't see the ATF doing that. But who knows? We'll just have to wait for the announcement to find out for sure, until then it's just rumors.

RX-178
January 23, 2011, 11:55 AM
Another thing is, I think that no matter what the ruling itself is, this is all because the ATF recently waffled on their stance on shotguns in general, specifically with a letter stating that a pistol gripped shotgun with a barrel under 18" is not necessarily an AOW.

They're now near desperate to clarify their stance on shotguns again.

Jon Coppenbarger
January 23, 2011, 12:06 PM
RX-178 I could not agree with you more

Geneseo1911
January 23, 2011, 01:34 PM
Lots of rumors flying around the interwebz. I'm hopeful it could be something other than the Saiga. The importers have gone to great lengths to keep it within the sporting purpose exemption. The Russky 8 rd. mags are unobtanium in this country for that reason.

That said, the BATFE is not known for being fair, consistent, intelligent, or reasonable.

General Geoff
January 23, 2011, 01:47 PM
I'm guessing the Saiga will be toast from this. Kel Tec plans to produce their shotgun domestically I believe so it won't touch that.

Doesn't matter whether it's produced domestically or not, anything with a bore over 0.50" in diameter that the ATF doesn't consider sporting is a DD.

Big_E
January 23, 2011, 01:58 PM
Looks like buying a Saiga 12 may go on the top of my list.

If they are going to single out that particular shotgun, which I hope not, do you think they would make owners who had them before this "ruling" have to register them? A la, California "Assault Weapons" Ban where they turned pretty much all AR-15 owners who didn't register into criminals?

TexasRifleman
January 23, 2011, 02:04 PM
Doesn't matter whether it's produced domestically or not, anything with a bore over 0.50" in diameter that the ATF doesn't consider sporting is a DD.

But their press release specifically mentions imports. If they are telling the truth the Kel Tec seems safe since it's domestic. Oh wait, I said "ATF" and "telling the truth" in the same sentence.... my bad.


ATF to Issue New Ruling on Monday regarding New Restrictions on Shotgun Importation
January 19th, 2011
Today, the ATF announced at the 2011 SHOT Show that a new ruling would be issued on Monday, January 24, 2011, regarding the importability of certain shotguns

pikid89
January 23, 2011, 02:15 PM
maybe it is going the other way in terms of allowing more as jerkface said
(for example the taurus raging judge)

Prince Yamato
January 23, 2011, 02:23 PM
Could it be one of those "readily accepts military parts" issues, whereby IZH will have to angle cut the back of their receivers alla the VEPR and Mak-90 to comply?

I don't own a Saiga, but I hope that their shotguns are not prohibited because of this!

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 23, 2011, 04:26 PM
Considering how the Raging Judge is coming out, They may actually be lessening its restrictions. Then again isn't the head of the ATF anti gun?

Gaiudo
January 23, 2011, 04:37 PM
And why isn't Saiga or a Saiga-clone made domestically? These seem to be a well-liked product.

Geneseo1911
January 23, 2011, 04:46 PM
Considering how the Raging Judge is coming out, They may actually be lessening its restrictions. Then again isn't the head of the ATF anti gun?

I don't think Obama's pick for that position has been confirmed; at least when you go to the ATF website, they still have reference to "Acting Director" so-and-so, who is not the anti-gunner from Chicago.

I also wonder if the reference to "certain imported shotguns" might have been a reference to the Taurus's. Taurus has gotten very aggressive lately with the shotgun shell firing pistols. The ATF apparently dropped the NFA hammer on a couple of their new models on Friday, so I wouldn't be surprised the letter would be to clarify that.

The good news (well it's the less bad part of bad news) is that the guy who originally broke this story here:http://blog.princelaw.com/ claims that he asked whether this would be a Destructive Device ruling, and he was told is was not. Here in IL our benevolent leaders protect us by not allowing evil DD's, so the guys who had the AA-12's back in the day had to dispose of them out of state when they were re-classified.

ETA:
And why isn't Saiga or a Saiga-clone made domestically? These seem to be a well-liked product.

Mainly because it would cost about twice as much if it were made here. Look at the price differential between the imported vs domestically manufactured x39 AK's. $350 vs $1000+ That may be what happens if importation is stopped, because they guns are gaining quite a following, especially in competition. You know....Sporting Purposes

The prices some of the high-end conversions are selling for would suggest that even a $1000 domestically made gun would be at least somewhat feasible. My attraction to the thing, however is to be able to buy it relatively cheap and then modify it myself. Not sure if I'd be so willing to take a dremel to it if it cost a grand or so.

Gaiudo
January 23, 2011, 05:09 PM
There's another thread on modded Saigas with JP parts. I wonder if that would be an argument for Sporting Purposes; or do such ruling only apply as they arrive in the US as-is?

Derek Zeanah
January 23, 2011, 05:23 PM
Mainly because it would cost about twice as much if it were made here. Look at the price differential between the imported vs domestically manufactured x39 AK's. $350 vs $1000+ That may be what happens if importation is stopped, because they guns are gaining quite a following, especially in competition. You know....Sporting Purposes
Maybe. I talked with the head of marketing for Taurus and she told me that the manufacturing capacity in Miami had been increased 50% last year. Taurus is trying to move more production from Brasil to the USA, so maybe we'll see more of that.

Geneseo1911
January 23, 2011, 05:24 PM
The ATF has previously ruled that competition shooting is not a "sporting purpose". The sporting purpose clause is really just a dodge. Basically the law says that the ATF can restrict any gun they want over .50 cal. Our dear leaders allow us to have any 12 ga. shotguns at all simply out of the kindness of their hearts.

As we all know, the founders put the Second Amendment in the Constitution to protect hunters :rolleyes:

oneounceload
January 23, 2011, 05:36 PM
Our dear leaders allow us to have any 12 ga. shotguns at all simply out of the kindness of their hearts.

That would also include 16, 20 and 28 gauge guns as well

Deus Machina
January 23, 2011, 10:43 PM
Remember that rumors are just rumors. Putting stock into those is a loosing proposition.

I think it may be loosening some restrictions, if they actually pay attention the way state laws are going now--it may be an attempt to stave off some sort of lawsuit a la Heller.

Since Saiga has followed every shotgun law, and is configured much in the same way that, say, a Beretta semi-auto would be if they had a gas piston, the logical part of me says that the ATF doesn't have any lawful reason to restrict them. At worst, they could demand they can't use AK stocks. Then again, there's no A, T, or F in 'logic'.

More likely, I'm thinking it's targeting Taurus. I feel that it may have been a better move to market the Judge as "The big .45 Long Colt revolver (that may or may not accept .410)" and not "The revolver that fires shotgun shells but isn't technically considered a SBS, AOW, or DD." How happy do you think the ATF was about that?

JShirley
January 23, 2011, 11:00 PM
Well, the lever-action Trail Judge is just a rifled .410. No Colt.

Tomcat47
January 23, 2011, 11:13 PM
Time will tell....very short amount of time actually, but I would believe that the Hierarchy of Taurus would have presented the Raging 28 idea to the ATF before they started making it?

Hope So.... I want one of them for lots of reasons! Novelty! Old Cartridge! Home Defense, Just to have one!, Its Neat! Its A Wildcat!

And goodnesss its so blasted big its funny! :what:

gunnutery
January 24, 2011, 01:15 AM
How did we get to the point where a "sporting purpose" was the maker or breaker of a gun model?

And how can a competition NOT be a "sporting purpose" according to the BATFE?

Sport –noun
1. an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport)

zoom6zoom
January 24, 2011, 01:30 AM
I just don't remember ATF, in the past, making an announcement that they would be making an announcement. Maybe they're just trying to stir up the forums to get some ideas.

InkEd
January 24, 2011, 02:19 AM
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives! That is just way TOO MANY fun things for ONE group of bureaucratic government idiots to have control over.

Heck, why not just let them regulate Muscle Cars, Football and Bikini Models so they can be renamed the U.S. Department of Buzzkill?

Glad to see my tax money isn't going to WASTE while taking away my Constitutional Rights at the exact same time. Oh wait....

You would think somebody in Washington would realize the politically appointed and involuntary taxfunded BATFE could better use it's resources (read: OUR hard-earned money) in a more productive manner. They could go after domestic terrorists, gun-running 1% M.C.s and all these invisible men allegedly sending guns to Mexican cartels. Just a thought.

Deus Machina
January 24, 2011, 02:19 AM
I was wondering that, too. Why get people riled up? If they stir up publicity like this, then ban Saigas or something, it's going to wind up like soccer season in England.

InkEd
January 24, 2011, 02:25 AM
I guess it's more important to keep those whackjob 3-gun competitors from owning poorly finished Com-bloc shotguns. They might go nuts and win a cheap plastic trophy or something else horrible. We can all sleep easier with Big Brother watching ..... watching over.... I mean watching out for us.

AJAX22
January 24, 2011, 11:49 AM
The batfe does not regulate alcohol or tobacco

They transferred That responsibility to treasury back in 2004 under the 'homeland security' reorganization

They have a 1.4 billion dollar budget to crack down on a 4 billion dollar industry

Ever wonder why they are always on the scene of random and totally unrelated busts?

They literally have nothin better to do

RX-178
January 24, 2011, 12:13 PM
Here's the only thing I've found so far, and it's just another message board post elsewhere. Copy & Paste:

There IS an announcement supposed to be posted today, but it's a STUDY. It's similar to one released 20 years ago, and clarifies the non importable features. As far as the Saiga 12, it should be safe, as the study identifies shotguns with detachable magazines with a capacity over 5 rounds, or drums. Since the Saiga is imported with 5 round mags, it does NOT fall into this category. #2 on the list was a bayonet lug. Know what has those? 1897 trench gun copies...and even though they're a replica of a historic shotgun, it's still affected, and likely will no longer be imported.

armoredman
January 24, 2011, 12:24 PM
AJAX22, I did notice when we had that fugitive in the Chandler resteraunt, and 5000 LEO showed up, there was at least two or three ATF windbreakers I could see. Wondered what they thought thier jurisdiction was...

HGUNHNTR
January 24, 2011, 12:35 PM
I was wondering that, too. Why get people riled up? If they stir up publicity like this, then ban Saigas or something, it's going to wind up like soccer season in England.
__________________


Because Americans rarely get riled up and take to the streets. The Queens car was attacked in London over a tuition hike....not that I am condoning anything like that whatsoever, but that just wouldn't happen in the US.

Zundfolge
January 24, 2011, 05:58 PM
And how can a competition NOT be a "sporting purpose" according to the BATFE?

"Sporting" in the way the ATF means it means hunting because at one time that's what "Sporting Arms" meant in common parlance (just like at one time "regulated" meant to keep in good working order, not control by fiat).



At any rate, is the announcement supposed to be today or tomorrow?

RX-178
January 24, 2011, 06:06 PM
Supposed to be today. Still nothing.

But to be fair, as far as I can tell, the first place the word 'ruling' was used was on a blog post at Prince law offices ATF blog.

As far as I can see, the ATF used the word 'announcement', and never said 'ruling.'

Deus Machina
January 24, 2011, 06:19 PM
That does make more sense. The ATF would be more likely to come out with rulings as soon as they make them, or announce "in light of circumstances, the bureau is investigating", or something. Working up publicity speaks of either good news (do you really think they would want to go to the SHOT Show to announce they are putting some of those vendors out of business?) or an announcement of a survey or study or the like.

RX-178
January 24, 2011, 06:26 PM
This whole thing has gotten to the point there's some REAL tin foil hattery out there.

How about a theory that Arsenal USA paid Harry Reid (campaign contributions) to make sure the BATF makes every Saiga 12 a DD EXCEPT for the Arsenal-USA/KVAR one so that they can have a monopoly on the platform?

And another theory that this whole thing is a rumor that the ATF put out to try and find a leak within their ranks.

2RCO
January 24, 2011, 08:37 PM
I can't find anything on the ATF website. No press releases, no new rulings, basically nothing.

bigfatdave
January 24, 2011, 08:58 PM
You mean ... another round of internet scaremongering?

Have we come full circle again? Is it time for Blair Holt's bill to be posted with a link to Snopes debunking it included in the outraged OP's copypasta?

Jon Coppenbarger
January 24, 2011, 09:02 PM
oh they put it off till april 1st!

RX-178
January 24, 2011, 09:09 PM
I actually checked their website before I re-read and that date actually sank in, Jon.

killchain
January 24, 2011, 09:10 PM
oh they put it off till april 1st!
Cite? Otherwise I'm gonna chalk all of this up as smoke blown up an opening.

PLRinmypocket
January 24, 2011, 10:13 PM
Could it be about taurus's 28 gauge revolver being taken by the ATF at the SHOT show.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/01/25/big-gun-short-lived-taurus-28-gauge-revolver/

Deus Machina
January 24, 2011, 11:03 PM
So... a handgun made to fire shotgun shells, with no corresponding handgun round. Pretty darn close to what I was saying.

How did they think that would turn out?

I'm just surprised the ATF didn't wait for them to fully tool up and make a few thousand, to really stick them in their wallets.

jojo200517
January 24, 2011, 11:23 PM
Well is there any more to it than this 28 gauge revolver being declared a SBS? It seems taurus needs to invent and market a bullet load for it. Even tho the bore is .550 (from what i gather) it seems that other over half inch bore handguns have gotten a green light as not destructive devices. I do believe the 600 nitro express revolver that was made was ruled to not be a destructive device (besides for your wrists and possibly your forehead).

I think they could make some heavy but slow bullets, call it the .550 softy or something? Ultimately people would probably still buy it to shoot the 28 gauge shells in it but if having a normal round (even a wildcat) would get them by it seems it would be easier to sell it that way than with a tax stamp on each one.

Zundfolge
January 24, 2011, 11:40 PM
A new caliber >.50 would still be a Destructive Device, so I'd say the 28ga Judge is just plain toast (too bad, it made a lot more sense to me than the silly .410).

Well I'm kinda relieved that they seem to be staying away from the Saigas and the new KelTec shottie.

Andy Griffith
January 24, 2011, 11:52 PM
My question is, why is fine to give large bore rifles a variance, and there is no record of variances for large bore handguns? Seems to me a lawsuit would be in order.

Large bore handgun are very sporting, and are as American as apple pie- and I like variety.

In all seriousness, if variances are given for large bore rifles, why not handguns?
That seems to me that the law hasn't been applied evenly across the board, and may be good grounds for a lawsuit or legislative action to clear all this mess up.

On the other hand, maybe we don't want anything fooled with. :uhoh: But, the time seems right to push back the anti's and get a fool hold going the other direction. A little momentum can go a long way.

Spec ops Grunt
January 25, 2011, 01:04 AM
So, did the ATF just troll everyone at SHOT just for the heck of it?

shotgunjoel
January 25, 2011, 01:13 AM
I'm just surprised the ATF didn't wait for them to fully tool up and make a few thousand, to really stick them in their wallets.
No way, if they waited that long, then some of those evil airplane-shooting, long range sniping, preferred cop-killer weapons would be out in the market! We wouldn't want that now, would we! They'd "nip it in the bud" to 'protect' us all.

Sam1911
January 25, 2011, 07:38 AM
So... a handgun made to fire shotgun shells, with no corresponding handgun round. Pretty darn close to what I was saying.

How did they think that would turn out?

I'm just surprised the ATF didn't wait for them to fully tool up and make a few thousand, to really stick them in their wallets.


Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the US Code lists this as the definition of a shotgun:
(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


And this definition of a short-barreled shotgun:
(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Title 26, 5845 (covering the NFA registration/taxing) says that:

For the purpose of this chapter - (a) Firearm The term ''firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length ...

So, whatever it is, it shouldn't be a short-barreled shotgun, as it does not meet the definition of a shotgun to begin with!

ESPECIALLY so, considering that the ATF's published letter on PGOs states that a smoothbore weapon manufactured without a shoulder stock (and having no shoulder stock later installed) is NOT a shotgun, but is an "Other Firearm." (Of course, you do still have to keep it over 26", even thought the barrel can be less than 18". Maybe that's where Taurus is running afoul?)

How very strange. Who knows...maybe they just make stuff up as they go along?

Naaaah, couldn't be... :rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
January 25, 2011, 07:55 AM
Since it appears there will be nothing new for now we can close this.

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