14.5 Barrel and brake combo question.


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Darthbauer
January 24, 2011, 11:51 AM
I'm not sure if I should put this in the rifle area or the legal or the NFA area but here it is.

I just got a Vltor MUR 1A upper, a 14.5 mid length barrel assembly and a Surefire 556k muzzle break. I gave all of this to my gunsmith and he said that barrel and break combo was to short and he won't put it together for me. So I get it home and I test fit it and then measure and it comes out to 16.35 inches. I contact the place where I bought all of the parts and they say it should be long enough too. According to their website, the barrel is 14.5 inches and the muzzle break is 2.49 inches and adds 1.86 inches in length to your barrel.

So my friend that was putting it together for me says he is measuring to the first port in the break and not the end of the break and thats why he thinks it comes up short.

I know the break needs to be attached on there perm to not be an SBR and it will be, just so everything is clear.

What do you guys think?

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NOLAEMT
January 24, 2011, 12:30 PM
find a different gunsmith...

TonyAngel
January 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
Yeah, that smith is a weinie. Maybe he just doesn't have the means to attach the hider. It's also possible that he just doesn't know how to measure.

Darthbauer
January 24, 2011, 12:53 PM
That's what I was thinking. The only problem is that he is one of my friends rather than just my gunsmith so the work was gonna be done for free. I'm just gonna take it to rifle gear and have them put it all together but I think they are gonna charge me like 90 bucks.

TonyAngel
January 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
Well, 90 bucks sounds rediculous to me, considering that it takes all of 15 or 20 minutes to assemble the upper, but also figure $30 for attaching the muzzle device. Darth, I'm gonna guess that you don't have any means at all to do any of the work yourself. Is that right? I'm asking because attaching the flash hider isn't a big deal, if you have a drill press. You can pop the hole for the pin and take it to a welding shop and have them weld over the pin hole. Then you can take the parts to your friend and let him put them together.

Darthbauer
January 24, 2011, 02:03 PM
You are correct when you guess that I do not have the means to do any of this work myself. Even if I had the tools (which I don't) I would not want to screw it up since I don't have the money to buy another one as of right now.

I'm just gonna take it to the shop where I bought it and hope since I bought all of the parts from them that I might get a bit of a discount. Fingers crossed.

Snowy Rivers
January 24, 2011, 05:30 PM
Unless the brake is permanently attached as a "Bloop tube" and can't be removed without cutting machining and or other serious means, then the gun is a SBR and Illegal.

Just having a Brake screwed onto the 14-1/2" barrel is not enough, it must be permanently attached either by a blind pin or welded.

Your getting into the NFA Rhelm here and violations can be met with nastyn consequences

As long as the brake is on there permanently, your good to go.

I have set up a few of these for folks and its fine.

Just dont be out cruising with the brake not fixed permanent.

Snowy

jerkface11
January 24, 2011, 11:09 PM
If your "gunsmith" doesn't know how to pin and weld a flash hider you should find a new one. Or do it yourself.

Darthbauer
January 25, 2011, 11:13 AM
He knows how to do it, he just doesn't want to. He says the way that the cops measure the barrel length here in Orange County California that it would come up short and that he just refuses to make me an SBR.

It wouldn't be the first time a cop here takes something away because they thought it was illegal when it really isn't.

highorder
January 25, 2011, 12:25 PM
He knows how to do it, he just doesn't want to. He says the way that the cops measure the barrel length here in Orange County California that it would come up short and that he just refuses to make me an SBR.

A gunsmith with a conscience and too rich to need work?

Only in California.

It wouldn't be the first time a cop here takes something away because they thought it was illegal when it really isn't.

So the cops come to the range, and start wildly measuring whatever they like?

Darthbauer
January 25, 2011, 12:32 PM
So the cops come to the range, and start wildly measuring whatever they like?

Short answer, yes. I know it's lame and I would love to get out of this state but thanks to a failed marriage and a child custody agreement and the love of my child I can not leave. So lets not turn this into a bash and leave CA thread.

jerkface11
January 25, 2011, 12:47 PM
How do they measure it?

Darthbauer
January 25, 2011, 12:49 PM
If it's mounted to the upper they measure from the back of the delta ring to the first port in the muzzle break.

highorder
January 25, 2011, 12:50 PM
If it's mounted to the upper they measure from the back of the delta ring to the first port in the muzzle break.

That's just wrong. What about non-AR rfles, or do they just harass AR owners?

Does California have barrel regs on top of Federal regs?

If not, carry a copy of the ATF definition of barrel length and their measurement method.

Darthbauer
January 25, 2011, 01:07 PM
That's just wrong. What about non-AR rfles, or do they just harass AR owners?

Most cops harass any gun owner here.

Does California have barrel regs on top of Federal regs?

I don't think so but don't quote me on that either.

If not, carry a copy of the ATF definition of barrel length and their measurement method.

That's what I have been thinking about doing. Anyone know where I can find a copy of that.

highorder
January 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
18 USC Part 44: Firearms.

Specifically,
27 C.F.R. 479.11 Meaning of terms.
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Darthbauer
January 25, 2011, 02:47 PM
The only problem I can see with that is that it does not say to the tip of the muzzle unless it's talking about OAL and not the barrel length. Got to love the gray areas and the way everyone, including the cops, interpret them to be in their favor.

Snowy Rivers
January 25, 2011, 04:46 PM
Barrel length is from the mouth of the chamber to the very end of the barrel.
If the flash hider is not pinned, then they could unscrew it and measure the barrel only.


As a manufacture, I have to be carefull of this stuff. A none pinned "Bloop tube" is not considered part of the barrel. If its pinned (blind) or welded then its considered as part of the barrel.

The ports or lack thereof make zero difference.

Only difference is to LE who choose to break the law by either harassing the citizens or enforcing none existant or phoney rules.

ATF rules stand.

16 Inches on a rifle is minimum, 18 inches on the shotgun. SBS and SBR requires a form 4 if the states will allow NFA weapons (oregon does)

A shotgun with a pistol grip "FROM the factory and a short barrel (under 18") is considered "Any other weapon" AOW and requires a $5 tax stamp.

Dont ask me why the AOW is different but it is. Thats ATF rules that are all part of NFA-34

Snowy

AmEngRifles
June 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
Snowy,

I realize this is an old thread now, but in hopes someone checks back in on this subject......

Do the barrel extensions NOT come into play on AR's in that total length measurement? They pretty much seem like a permanent part of the barrel to me?

Thanks

AmEng

MtnCreek
June 30, 2011, 06:27 PM
Makes no difference. The boltface protrudes into the barrel extension where it meets the barrel. The extension does not really extend anything, it just connects the lug recesses to the barrel.

Rubber_Duck
June 30, 2011, 06:49 PM
I just got a Vltor MUR 1A upper, a 14.5 mid length barrel assembly and a Surefire 556k muzzle break. I gave all of this to my gunsmith and he said that barrel and break combo was to short and he won't put it together for me.

Your gunsmith is a moron. I have a Noveske N4 Lo-Pro with a 14.5" barrel and a SureFire flash hider pinned/welded: http://sgcusa.com/rifles/noveske-rifleworks/noveske-n4-carbine-surefire-k.html

The SureFire muzzle brake is the same dimensions as their flash hider as they are both suppressor mounts, so either one will bring a 14.5" barrel into non-NFA status once pinned and welded.

briansmithwins
June 30, 2011, 10:53 PM
If they are measuring to the first hole in the barrel, why not use the gas port?

Illegal SBRs for everyone!

BSW

Strykervet
September 7, 2011, 06:28 PM
18 USC Part 44: Firearms.

Specifically,
27 C.F.R. 479.11 Meaning of terms.
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
I read that same ATF ruling last night going over my trust papers. It is measured from the breech face to the end of the barrel (the end of the barrel is where you can no longer remove stuff --if the brake is attached, it is part of the barrel). You should put a cleaning rod down the barrel WITH THE WEAPON COCKED AND THE BOLT FOWARD. Having it cocked doesn't mean much here, but that is the wording. Mark the end. Measure the rod and that is the real length.

Measuring from the delta ring does no good. Every one is different, say if you have no delta ring and FF tube. Need one size fits all, and this is it.

BTW, I'm doing the exact same thing. I have a 14.5 and an AAC brakeout that I have to get pinned and welded. Rainier Arms does it locally for less than $60 but more than $50. ADCO wanted over $80, plus shipping; for that I'd expect a custom ground washer for timing at least.

Strykervet
September 7, 2011, 06:32 PM
Oh yeah, the only way to prove it is permanent is "trial by fire". It has to be destroyed in order to prove you are not in the wrong --guilty until proven innocent, the American governemnt's way! True inquisition practices in the 21st Century!

I understand they use a pipe wrench and a vice and then they ruin the barrel. You better hope they ruin the barrel anyway. My question is, if you pass the "trial by fire" how much money do you get to replace your gear? Anyone have experience with this?

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