Anyone else disappointed with the S&W Governor announcement?


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9mm+
January 25, 2011, 10:17 AM
Ok, I've got to be honest here -- I was disappointed with the announcement from Smith & Wesson regarding their new Governor. Nothing against the Taurus Judge -- by any definition, the Judge has been a PHENOMENALLY successful revolver with a legion of devoted fans -- but a "me too" announcement from S&W chasing Taurus was a let down. Clearly, the success of the Judge forced S&W's hand to produce a .410/45 revolver, but even the name "Governor" smacks of a cheap rip-off. I dunno...maybe I'm just getting a bit crusty in my old age...:rolleyes:

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blackrussian
January 25, 2011, 10:30 AM
You're not alone.

9mm+
January 25, 2011, 10:30 AM
Crikey, I just read some of the threads in the S&W forum on the same topic. Geez, it seems like a lot of those people were incensed by this announcement. A lot of acrimony from S&W devotees. :(

CajunBass
January 25, 2011, 10:31 AM
Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't want one, but I don't blame Smith & Wesson saying, "Aparrently there is a market here. Let's grab a share."

Yes, it's about the money. That's why they're in business.

9mm+
January 25, 2011, 10:42 AM
Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't want one, but I don't blame Smith & Wesson saying, "Aparrently there is a market here. Let's grab a share."

I agree and understand S&W's decision to enter this market. I think what sticks in my craw a bit is the name. Should it have been a 6xx or 7xx model or something like that, I think I would've shrugged it off. "Governor" or "Senator" or "Congressman" or "SCOTUS"...ugh, it just seemed so desperate.

forindooruseonly
January 25, 2011, 10:47 AM
I wonder how well it will sell. It seems everyone who was fascinated by the Judge has already bought one, and those curious have seen enough reports and reviews or had enough first hand experience to either buy one or realize they don't want that.

I have dealer friends who can't get rid of their Judges. Seems like a really late entry into a saturated market.

CajunBass
January 25, 2011, 10:48 AM
Seems like a really late entry into a saturated market.

In that case, it won't sell well, and it will be quietly dropped. Won't be the first time.

Thaddeus Jones
January 25, 2011, 12:04 PM
Yes, very disappointed. But, after the last ten years, I've come to expect disappointment from the current company calling itself S&W.

They can't produce a lock free K-frame magnum, or a scandium framed single stack TDA pistol, but they can put the famous trademark on that hideous Taurus rip off.

S&W is simply Taurus North with a better advertising budget. TJ

CraigC
January 25, 2011, 12:06 PM
Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't want one, but I don't blame Smith & Wesson saying, "Aparrently there is a market here. Let's grab a share."

Yes, it's about the money. That's why they're in business.
Exactly!

No one is required to buy one either.

The Bushmaster
January 25, 2011, 12:09 PM
"No one is required to buy one either."

You are absolutely correct. And you will not find either one in my gun safe. Unbelievably a stupid idea and ugly to boot.

highorder
January 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
A model number would have had some class.

The name they chose was like choosing the female gov. of Alaska as VP.

A desperate move, nothing more.

Guillermo
January 25, 2011, 12:18 PM
Thaddeus just knocked it out of the park with 3 concise lines.

9mm+
January 25, 2011, 02:36 PM
So, S&W = 'Taurus North'? Ay caramba! (Of course, they speak Portuguese, not Spanish, in Brazil, but I don't know the equivalent saying.)

HoosierQ
January 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
Well if they were "Taurus North" I guess they'd be selling revolvers for $400 insteald of $800:eek:

Old S&Ws are great but they cost an arm and a leg too. People talk about "get a nice used pre-lock for cheap"? Where for crying out loud? Not around here. Used S&Ws are like $600.

I object more to their pricing than the lock or anything else. Why does a revolver have to cost $800? They are far from perfect...we're not talking triple locks here!!!

I want to like S&W but they make it hard. I do own two and I am happy with them both (one 80% anyway) but I am hard pressed to lay out the cash for another...I'll buy an AR for what a nice new .357 costs:confused:

Lucky Derby
January 25, 2011, 02:50 PM
It doesn't bother me. They saw that Taurus has a market for them, and are trying for a piece of that pie. Frankly I think the old expression "A day late and a dollar short" kind of applies to the timing.

Besides since the locks went onto the S&W revolvers, I really don't care anymore what they make.

fireside44
January 25, 2011, 02:53 PM
A once great company, whom Taurus and Rossi basically took their cues from, has become a company that is now taking their cues from Taurus and Rossi. Ironic. Reminds me of what happened to the American auto industry.

JR47
January 25, 2011, 03:02 PM
The economy is tanked, and people need jobs. S&W is tapping into a market that has grown hugely, despite the fact that one shop cannot "get rid of theirs". Perhaps it's their pricing?

As for "ugly and bulky", that's a matter of taste, and nothing more. If they sell anywhere as well as the Judge, it will enable S&W to keep their employees working.

S&W made a business decision a while back to add locks to their products. It enables them to sell their products in places where others cannot. Try certifying a revolver in California without a lock, or Maryland. Other smaller municipalities have similar laws on their books.

If you don't like the Governor, or the locks, don't buy them. They don't add or subtract anything from the guns.

Coal Dragger
January 25, 2011, 03:04 PM
Smith and Wesson can make as many as they want to, but I will still not have any use for a firearm that is both a piss poor revolver with normal bullets, and an even poorer shotgun.

rcmodel
January 25, 2011, 03:04 PM
That still isn't as bad a Ruger saying they "started with a clean sheet of paper" when they copied the Kel-Tec P3AT and brought out the LCP.
Heck, they even copied the parts list drawing from Kel-Tec.

At least the S&W will be a somewhat different design then the Taurus.

rc

oneounceload
January 25, 2011, 03:14 PM
Seems like a really late entry into a saturated market.
In that case, it won't sell well, and it will be quietly dropped. Won't be the first time.

Which also means it will be worth a fortune in about 10 years........ :D

BCRider
January 25, 2011, 04:40 PM
They won't give us a 9mm moonclip revolver but they'll try to beat Taurus at THIS sort of niche market share? Oh come ON S&W!

Guillermo
January 25, 2011, 06:09 PM
Where for crying out loud? Not around here.

dude, you gotta get out of the car and get your boots muddy.

pawn shops, the internet (smaller boards), gun shows (especially in smaller towns), gun stores that get police trade ins.

heck, the last smith I bought, less than a year ago, a police trade in 686, I was harangued for paying 400 for it.

HoosierQ
January 25, 2011, 06:18 PM
Guillermo

Well you've sort of hit my nail on the head. Pawn shops around here don't seem to sell guns...I don't think they are prohibited but I just haven't seen one that does...probably is. And our big gun show here in Indianapolis, while absolutely huge and every two months, is just a big dealer showcase with very few used guns.

So I think your comment about "getting my boots dirty" is good advice. I would indeed love to find a police trade in. A buddy found a 6-in model 28 :eek:...what a gem! I think a small town LEO had it and it had a little hoster wear...very little. Maybe he paid 425 for it. Just a beautiful gun...my dream gun. Maybe there is hope.

Maybe I'll find a triple-lock :rolleyes:

Thanks.

gordy
January 25, 2011, 07:06 PM
What's the big deal?
Everyone did it to colt- 1911.
Now most are doing it to colt once more- ar15.
ruger did it to kel-tec, and no one cares.
And did not S&W come up with the 22 rim fire. I think all gun makers have a 22 in there line.
Yes the swing out cylinder was there idea too.
I am a very big S&W fan and I think they can do it if they want.
I know a guy who has a judge and all he does with it in 410 is shoot carp of the dock. At the price of a box of 410's. It is cheaper to shoot 45's out the thing.
And you can find a better platform to shoot 45's. And that's a fact.
There has not been a lot of original idea's in the firearm biz for a few years.
So lighten up and be glad that S&W is out to make the buyer happy.
And one thing for sure is the Governor will be better made than the judge.

Guillermo
January 25, 2011, 07:22 PM
Maybe I'll find a triple-lock

now there is dreaming big!!! :eek:

I tend to avoid the big shows unless I have a lot of time to look for individuals selling. Seems like the dealers at the large shows have higher prices.

When I hear of a small show, if it is less than an hour drive I am there. Often find good deals. Plus, country folk seem to take care of their guns better.

Try pawn shops on the bad side of town. True they have less quality merchandise but less prosperous clients too. And the clients that they have that do have money tend to like autos that they can shoot sideways.
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/nyte-sytes.jpg

If there is a cheap ad rag, like the Thrifty Nickel or Greensheet, pick it up on the first day (I have never scored but have had some near misses, including a $350 Colt Diamondback). The deals are gone fast so if it has been out for a while, use it to start the fireplace.

Some folks do well at flea markets but I don't have the patience for that.

Don't give up...that triple lock might be out there!!! :D

forindooruseonly
January 25, 2011, 09:17 PM
S&W is tapping into a market that has grown hugely, despite the fact that one shop cannot "get rid of theirs". Perhaps it's their pricing?

Maybe they are out of line, maybe it is a regional thing since I referred to shops, as in plural. My point is that around here, the market that "has grown hugely" has slowed considerably. Markets grow hugely until they contract...

But whatever.

Dimis
January 26, 2011, 02:08 AM
seems all S&W has done latly is jump on bandwagons

everyone talked trash on both the Taurus Judge and the Ruger LCR yet enough sold for smith to put out the polymer bodygaurd and the governer (which I agree is a stupid name they should have used a model number)

maybe next year they will have an Arnold Schwarzenegger version called the governator on the X frame lol
just imagine the TRR8 style with 8 shots of 410 with light laser and red dot:evil::D:barf:

Buck Snort
January 26, 2011, 10:27 AM
Hey, S&W is in the business to make a profit. If they see another company with a really hot item then it only makes sense they'd want a piece of the action. Competition and the free enterprise system is a wonderful thing. At a minimum, we should not see Taurus raising the price on the Judge!:rolleyes:

Thaddeus Jones
January 26, 2011, 10:36 AM
If they want to profit, perhaps they might try making a handgun worth buying. Maybe even make their QA/QC as good as their curomer service too.

You know, like they did prior to 2001. TJ

Guillermo
January 26, 2011, 12:04 PM
You know, like they did prior to 2001

wasn't 96 the year that the MIM monster's shadow fell upon the company-formerly-known-as-smith-and-wesson?

9mm+
January 26, 2011, 12:56 PM
+1 Dimis -- very true and very funny! :)

Nushif
January 26, 2011, 01:00 PM
Have you noticed some of the strategy here though?

First Taurus came out with the Judge, got burned by the entire ... open minded and objective, as well as level headed gun community for their crappy product and here comes S&W! They introduce the same gun, compete in the market and don't catch nearly the same amount of vitriol.
Or look at the LCP. Ruger brings back the concept of a small .380 into the spotlight ... and a few months later S&W attaches a non optional laser, adds a couple hundred bucks to the price and for some reason their gun is miles better clearly.

Sounds like S&W knows their consumer base more than anything else.

Thaddeus Jones
January 26, 2011, 01:27 PM
Some folks will pay idiotic amounts for a POS that bears the famous logo. Then they will appear on many different gunboards defending their purchase/proclaiming it to be just as good as the older guns/shoots more accurately than all the pre locks they don't own/they sold all their Rugers and will only purchase S&W wind up guns.

Gunrags excuse anything S&W does < American Handgunner - "Much ado about nothing" > and take the advertising money. They have never met a gun they didn't like. Especially if it has S&W cheaply laser etched on it.

Evidently, S&W has no gun people in their hierarchy. A quick glance through their catalog shows ugly guns made cheaply and priced by extreme optimists.

I have noticed over the last ten years or so, that the majority of the gun buying public is willing to fork over large amounts of money for overhyped overpriced absolute junk.

Then some go on gunboards and declare it to be the best thing since sliced bread. (Ex: S&W M&P - well......after you purchase after market parts and blah, blah, blah.) Folks need to get out and shoot more. Find some guns with real triggers to shoot too.

The gun manufacturers are evidently well aware of this trend and giving them what they will buy, as cheaply as they can manufacture it. Sad. TJ

mnhntr
January 26, 2011, 11:53 PM
Instead of getting their quality back into the revolvers they produce, why not just copy others cheap crap? Makes sense to me when everyone on the forums is raving about the older S&Ws, but hey its not what the customers want, just whats cheap.

CornCod
January 27, 2011, 12:29 AM
While I have nothing against S&W producing a Judge clone, I do take issue with the fact that the more established US firearms manufacturers have a terrible record of innovation in the last 20 years. So many of these companies are stuck in the late 19th Century. The most innovative American gun company is Kel-Tec. If I were Chairman of the Board of Smith and Wesson, I would fire the current guy running S&W and hire George Kelgren or whoever's calling the shots at Kel-tec now.

9mm+
January 27, 2011, 07:52 AM
While I have nothing against S&W producing a Judge clone, I do take issue with the fact that the more established US firearms manufacturers have a terrible record of innovation in the last 20 years. So many of these companies are stuck in the late 19th Century. The most innovative American gun company is Kel-Tec. If I were Chairman of the Board of Smith and Wesson, I would fire the current guy running S&W and hire George Kelgren or whoever's calling the shots at Kel-tec now.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.

fireside44
January 27, 2011, 09:03 AM
If I were Chairman of the Board of Smith and Wesson, I would fire the current guy running S&W and hire George Kelgren or whoever's calling the shots at Kel-tec now.


I don't think the world is ready for a bullpup .500 S&W that takes forever to make it to market.

230RN
January 27, 2011, 09:09 AM
Will the 28 gauge version be called "President?"

Will the 20 gauge version be called "Prime Minister?"

Will the 12 gauge version be called "Emperor?"

Terry, 230RN

hardworker
January 27, 2011, 09:19 AM
What on Earth was Smith and Wesson thinking? They should be spending more time developing 1911 clones, pocket 380's and snub nose 38's. That's what the market needs more of right now. Why waste time making a revolver that will sell like hotcakes and make the company money for the future when they can just plod along on the same old revolvers and semi-auto's they've been making for 30 years? It's like they've never had a marketing class.

JR47
January 27, 2011, 03:02 PM
You know, like they did prior to 2001. TJ


You must be young. In the 70s and 80s S&W had terrible QC problems. So much so that the written word said to buy "old" models. Today, though, these same poor QC models are mooed over as "the good old days". Sheesh.

PapaG
January 27, 2011, 03:19 PM
We are getting a big laugh out of it here in Illinois...the state where the Judge sends Governors to jail.

Guillermo
January 27, 2011, 06:45 PM
when they can just plod along on the same old revolvers and semi-auto's they've been making for 30 years?

too damned bad that they are not making the "same old revolvers" that they made instead of the garbage that they currently produce

Dave T
January 27, 2011, 10:55 PM
I've been disappointed in S&W since they dropped the pinned and recessed features of their revolvers. They are run by the bean counters these days who only care about the bottom line. As long as it sells it doesn't matter how good it is, how it looks or even if it's functional. Promise to repair it for life and people will overlook shoddy workmanship and poor design.

Dave

earlthegoat2
January 27, 2011, 11:18 PM
There is a lot of new and uninformed shooters and gun owners out there who have heard of a great gun company called Smith and Wesson.

They were a great gun company. Just like GM used to be a good car company.

Crikey, I just read some of the threads in the S&W forum on the same topic. Geez, it seems like a lot of those people were incensed by this announcement. A lot of acrimony from S&W devotees.

Sure to be shut down by the S&W Forum patrol in short order. That forum is in bed with S&W and wont let an ill word be spoke about them.

sixgunner455
January 28, 2011, 11:48 AM
Nope, not disappointed at all. A little surprised, but not disappointed. They can make what they want. I'll buy what I want.

Judge/Governor/Thunder5 - all the same dumb idea that seems cool when you first hear about it, but on thoughtful reflection, you spend your money on a Colt PPS or S&W 19-3 and move on.

MCgunner
January 28, 2011, 12:03 PM
maybe next year they will have an Arnold Schwarzenegger version called the governator on the X frame lol
just imagine the TRR8 style with 8 shots of 410 with light laser and red dot

Well, Taurus has already announced a larger frame .454 firing Judge. Don't remember the name....SCOTUS? :rolleyes: Anyway, it's a Judge on steroids.

Or look at the LCP. Ruger brings back the concept of a small .380 into the spotlight ... and a few months later S&W attaches a non optional laser, adds a couple hundred bucks to the price and for some reason their gun is miles better clearly.

The LCP was, itself a Kel Tec P3AT rip off! Kel Tec is an innovative company, but they're young, not old and stodgy and dusty and past their prime. They also have some great customer service. Not knocking Ruger, but hey, they weren't the first in the compact 380 market. I have a Grendel P12 that's a good gun other than I don't care much for the trigger. It accepts 11 round magazines, so it's a double stack, but while being slightly wider (like .95" or something), it's the same height and length as the LCP and weighs only 12 ounces. It was George Kelgren's first in this comcept and I like the firepower over the current crop of pocket .380s, gun is 20 years old now. The P11 came from this concept and then the P3AT. Ruger was WAY late to that party.

I sorta prefer the Grendel as a pocket gun to the LCP, too. It has a heal clip magazine latch, what any true pocket pistol SHOULD have. I haven't had trouble from my P11, just sayin'.

Nushif
January 28, 2011, 01:55 PM
Not knocking Ruger, but hey, they weren't the first in the compact 380 market.

Ruger brings back the concept of a small .380 into the spotlight ...

Let's face it, at first the Kel-Tecs were a bit of a niche gun. Plastic little mouseguns no good for anything except peeving the BG real bad and exploding in your hand, etc.
I really do think it took an established name to reintroduce the concept behind a Derringer.
Feel free of course to skim my post and correct something I never said. 8)

MCgunner
January 28, 2011, 02:32 PM
Well, I bought a Kel Tec P11 in 1996 and have been quite happy with it, prefer it to the alternatives from Taurus, Kahr, Skyy, Glock (though the G26 was out when I got the KT and it's not really in that size class), et al. Ruger is soon to jump on the PF9/P11/709 etc 9mm subcompact band wagon. They're running ads about it, but I don't think it's released, yet. Now, maybe that's a "re-introduction" to the concept, but not for me. I liked the little P3AT, too, and my Grendel way before Ruger jumped on the band wagon...oh, sorry, "re-introduced the concept". :rolleyes:

BTW, my Kel Tec has over 11,000 rounds fired through it and hasn't blown my hand off, yet. About 500 of those total have been +P rounds. It still shoots to POA 3.5" at 25 yards accurate. I don't need the "re-introduction" of the Ruger. I have a perfectly good firearm in that concept, thanks.

I have 7 Rugers, love my Rugers, just calling a spade a spade.

HiWayMan
January 28, 2011, 02:58 PM
I sorta prefer the Grendel as a pocket gun to the LCP, too. It has a heal clip magazine latch, what any true pocket pistol SHOULD have. I haven't had trouble from my P11, just sayin'.

I agree....first time I've seen it in print though...tired of the mag on my Kel-Tec just hanging in there so to speak.

Paladin7
January 28, 2011, 04:36 PM
I was really disappointed in the news.

In my mind, this is a group of marketing weenies getting together and seeing the success of the Judge in the market, decided, what the hell, let's go for it... I could just picture how this went down...:rolleyes:

Anyway, if its not a commercial success, they'll discontinue it and it will become a highly sought after collectors item...go figure...

MCgunner
January 28, 2011, 06:25 PM
Oh, was this about the new Smith Governor? Sorry. :D Got off on a "who's innovative" train of thought.

Hunt480
January 28, 2011, 08:41 PM
Like Taurus or not the "Judge" has been a success for a reason. The guns are useful and are great up close for self defense for anybody that can squeeze a trigger. S&W is trying to get a piece of the market that Taurus is cashing in on.

SPW1
January 28, 2011, 09:03 PM
Like Taurus or not the "Judge" has been a success for a reason.

True enough, but that "reason" is the ignorance of much of the general shooting public(especially brand new and therefore pretty ignorant CCL customers) that sees "shotgun shells in a handgun" and imagine close range devastating effectiveness with scarcely a need to aim. It's success was due to the existing "lore of the shotgun" that Taurus successfully tapped into. Never mind that the gun is extremely bulky, and that the reputation of shotguns as man stoppers was certainly not built on the 410, a shell many considered on the marginal side even for game as small as squirrels. I am sure some people buy it for the novelty, a "snake gun" or as a plinker, which is perfectly fine if you understand what your getting, I just find it somewhere between laughable and irritating when I see someone who obviously knows little about guns being sold a bulky 410 revolver as if they are the the greatest advancement in personal defense since the advent of cartridge firing weapons. :scrutiny:

In the real world a 410 loaded with a couple of large buckshot would likely show about the same effectiveness with the same type hits as a 38 special 158 gr round nose. Of course anything can kill, but it is not exactly likely to be tops in effectiveness, and you can get the same practical performance in a much less bulky and more ergonomic weapon. If you say load it with 45's, well and good, but then there isn't much point in the 410 aspect and there are many far smaller and more ergonomic 45's too.

NMGonzo
January 28, 2011, 09:37 PM
Wow ... two camps here.

What focus groups have S&W used to brand their new product?

Mags
January 28, 2011, 09:48 PM
Can the Taurus Judge fire 45 acp safely like the S&W Governor advertises?

Nushif
January 29, 2011, 04:51 AM
Pretty sure the judge advertises the .45 Colt cartridge. Not every .45 is an ACP.

That being said I haven't googled this "governor" but I highly doubt it'll shoot .45 colt, .45 ACP and .410. If it does that would blow my mind.

sw282
January 29, 2011, 07:35 AM
Rumor is their next model revolver out will be called the "DICTATOR"

MrGreenMachine
January 29, 2011, 08:13 AM
S&W like most of these other guys are just coming to the table a day late and a dollar short to really make money off these. I wouldn't knock S&W if they had released the "Governor" a few months after the "Judge". But come on the Judge has been on the shelves for what almost two years now and Taurus just keeps adding options on! So S&W rather than spending two years figuring out if we can make a few bucks off these how bout you hit the market when you see the instant success! I dont think anyone can contest the fact that the Judge was pretty much a hit right off the bat with it's WOW factor.

shockwave
January 29, 2011, 08:30 AM
While there are a few exceptions, in general you don't usually see S&W behave as a market innovator. That's not in the company's DNA.

In software parlance, "that's a feature, not a bug."

Smaller companies like Kel-Tec have to innovate because they can find success with niche products. S&W offers a different value proposition: no risk.

MCgunner
January 29, 2011, 10:35 AM
I can agree a bit with SPW1's assessment that these guns appeal to the somewhat uneducated gun buyer. There are people ON THIS BOARD who think the shotgun is the end all weapon. I mean, that big 12 gauge "bullet" (aka slug) HAS to be devistating, right, never mind the lack of sectional density. They go so far as to suggest it's better than a .577 Nitro for African game. :rolleyes: Yeah, the projectile is bigger around. So what? The shotgun is a really versatile weapon, but it's main bailiwick is bird hunting and will remain so. The 20 or the 12 is a viable CQB weapon, but that don't extend to the .410 out of a 6" barrel. :rolleyes: I'd cut off the excess cylinder and call it a .45 Colt, myself. But, that's JMO. I was going to say it was JMHO, but I've been told I'm not so humble. :D

I think these guns might have a purpose, though, in thin walled appartments. But, there are other options and that's a mighty narrow niche for a firearm that sells so well. People aren't buying them for apartment defense.

yeti
January 29, 2011, 10:51 AM
I highly doubt it'll shoot .45 colt, .45 ACP and .410. If it does that would blow my mind.

"Fire in the Hole!!"

Caliber:.45 Colt, .45 ACP, .410 2-1/2" Shotshell. (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_768152_-1_757992_757992_image)

Nushif
January 29, 2011, 03:15 PM
"Fire in the Hole!!"

If they put a good trigger on that I may even buy one when I have the money.

Diggers
January 29, 2011, 04:15 PM
Kinda behind the curve on this one, but I get it. As always its about the $$$.

Its still a dumb gun idea no matter who makes it though.


If they are going to start making copies of other companies guns I'm crossing my fingers for a S&W version of the Charter Arms Bulldog .44 next!! ;)

MCgunner
January 29, 2011, 04:51 PM
If you want to get really picky about who copied who, Taurus copied the Thunder Five, at least in concept. I don't like the sights or lack there of on the Thunder Five, but it's the first REVOLVER I ever heard of that fired .410 and .45 Colt.

Dave T
January 29, 2011, 04:51 PM
earlthegoat said,

There is a lot of new and uninformed shooters and gun owners out there who have heard of a great gun company called Smith and Wesson.

They were a great gun company. Just like GM used to be a good car company.

Quote:
Crikey, I just read some of the threads in the S&W forum on the same topic. Geez, it seems like a lot of those people were incensed by this announcement. A lot of acrimony from S&W devotees.

Sure to be shut down by the S&W Forum patrol in short order. That forum is in bed with S&W and wont let an ill word be spoke about them.

earl, if you go to the S&W Forum and spend some time you will find as much criticism of the current S&W as on any other board, maybe more. Many of us over there see the older stuff as much more desirable and just plane better.

Dave (SWCA Member, S&W Forum member)

sw282
January 30, 2011, 06:35 AM
lf l wanted a 410/45 it would NOT be a Taurus. Their quality doesnt meet my standards. So that leaves Smith & Wesson. They say its built on a 'Y' frame. l guess its probably a lengthened 'N' frame. The EXTRA bullet is a plus for the Smith. They wisely chose not to chember it for the 3'' 410. My dislike for the gun centers around the juvenile name they chose for it. Smith is doing what any savvy company does. Satisfying the market. l predict there will many used Judges on the market in a couple years

RX-178
January 30, 2011, 06:58 AM
The S&W governor fires .45 ACP because the cylinder is cut for moon clips from the factory. You can have a gunsmith do the same to a Taurus Judge.

sw282
January 30, 2011, 07:21 AM
l just looked at the ad again. 0ne part Smith calls it the "MIXSIX". Now thats a catchy name. A good deal classier than GOVERNOR. THey could add a small set of pink grips and call it the "GOVERNESS"

9mm+
February 3, 2011, 02:36 PM
THey could add a small set of pink grips and call it the "GOVERNESS"

I'm sure that's coming. I expect to see it by summer.

Jeff H
February 3, 2011, 04:52 PM
I highly doubt it'll shoot .45 colt, .45 ACP and .410. If it does that would blow my mind.
"Fire in the Hole!!"

How do they get get the 45ACP to headspace and still get the 45 colt to chamber? Moonclips???



Edit- Oh for goodness sakes. Those morons didn't even chamber it for the 3" .410 shells, just 2-1/2" :sigh

JR47
February 3, 2011, 06:42 PM
True enough, but that "reason" is the ignorance of much of the general shooting public(especially brand new and therefore pretty ignorant CCL customers) that sees "shotgun shells in a handgun" and imagine close range devastating effectiveness with scarcely a need to aim. It's success was due to the existing "lore of the shotgun" that Taurus successfully tapped into. Never mind that the gun is extremely bulky,

Amazing, now we have someone polling the majority of owners of the Judge and Governor, to give us the "why" that caused them to buy it. Or, maybe we have just another Internet Commando making sweeping statements based on their own personal opinion.

Let it go. The gun is a success story for Taurus, and will, most likely, provide S&W with a modicum of success. Especially given the fact that S&W enjoys the results of a century plus of history, unmarred by actual results in their on again, off again, QC.

Snubshooter
February 3, 2011, 07:37 PM
If Smith can make money on the "gov" fine, I just wish they would reintroduce a 9mm J frame and a .44 SS L frame two items their real customers have pined for.

XxWINxX94
February 3, 2011, 07:45 PM
Yup, they were a little late to hop on the bandwagon.

JMACDONALD
February 3, 2011, 08:48 PM
The Judge is not on the Attorney General's approved list. Almost all new Smith & Wessons are. Supply and demand.

9mm+
February 4, 2011, 01:56 PM
Quote:
True enough, but that "reason" is the ignorance of much of the general shooting public(especially brand new and therefore pretty ignorant CCL customers) that sees "shotgun shells in a handgun" and imagine close range devastating effectiveness with scarcely a need to aim. It's success was due to the existing "lore of the shotgun" that Taurus successfully tapped into. Never mind that the gun is extremely bulky,

Amazing, now we have someone polling the majority of owners of the Judge and Governor, to give us the "why" that caused them to buy it. Or, maybe we have just another Internet Commando making sweeping statements based on their own personal opinion.

Let it go. The gun is a success story for Taurus, and will, most likely, provide S&W with a modicum of success. Especially given the fact that S&W enjoys the results of a century plus of history, unmarred by actual results in their on again, off again, QC.

JR, I see your point and anyone who denies Taurus's success with The Judge is only fooling themselves. That said, however, newly minted CCW's have some ill-conceived perceptions regarding what makes a good defense revolver. I can't tell you how many people I have overheard at the range, at gun shows, etc., saying something like this: "Duuuuuude, that Judge is AWESOME. It's like having a shotgun in your hand!" Their perception is, unfortunately, that they're getting 12-gauge personal defense performance in an easy-to-tote package, but the reality is far from that. The Judge would make for a good snake gun, but a 410 load in a short-barreled firearm is not the best for self defense by a long shot.

A number of S&W purists expected Smith to stay away from this silliness, but the lure of the market was just too strong to deny. I can't say that I don't blame them for wanting a piece of that market and steal some market share away from Taurus, but when the revolver was ultimately named "The Governor", it made me cringe. I have no doubt that The Governor will make a lot of money for S&W and help fill their coffers, but hopefully we will see S&W get back into a leadership role and innovate again.

HelterSkelter
February 4, 2011, 03:06 PM
a few weeks ago i went into my favorite gun store and i overheard the owner telling this guy how good the judge was for self defense. i didn't want to ruin the owners sale and get kicked out but i wanted so bad to tell the guy not to buy a judge for self defense. the gun is good for two things only. shooting snakes with birshot and inaccurately shooting 45 long colt.

Hunt480
February 4, 2011, 07:41 PM
The Judge would make for a good snake gun, but a 410 load in a short-barreled firearm is not the best for self defense by a long shot.

Don't kid yourself the Judge with these 410 defense loads that are available now will do utter destruction to a human target as well as snakes. I carry this gun all the time.Fortunately I have quite a few guns to choose from,but I have no qualms about carrying the Judge for defense. It is bad news within the range it is intended for especially with a couple 45LC's mixed in. If anybody beleives a 410 will not ruin somebodys day they are sadly mistaken. 5 quick shots will convince you otherwise!

Guillermo
February 4, 2011, 08:02 PM
410 defense loads that are available now will do utter destruction to a human target

not out of that short of a barrel. In addition to the short barrel , the rifling also makes it where there is no way for a decent pattern to be held. The shot will expand like a blunderbuss.

and the penetration would be very poor.

Basically the Judge is a horrible shotgun and a very bad 45.

The Smith version is a horrible shotgun and a very bad 45...at a much higher price.

It is so bad that even Guns and Ammo, a shill for the firearm industry, admits that loading with .410 it is not a suitable defensive weapon.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/judging-judge


While I support anyone's right to buy and carry what they want, let us not pretend that this concept is something that it is not. It is a gimmick pure and simple.

Do not think that I am against fun guns. I have a 50 caliber muzzle loader but I do not consider it a defensive weapon.

Hunt480
February 4, 2011, 10:10 PM
You might want to read your article again.

But if you think I am giving the Judge a thumbs down as a self-defense arm hear me out. The verdict is not in yet. I think this is a uniquely useful handgun for some people and some situations. Let's not forget it shoots .45 Colt ammo, a proven manstopper, and there are self-defense situations where penetration of walls and/or injury to innocents behind the bad guy are very real concerns. The Judge gives you options no other self-defense handgun does.

Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/judging-judge?page=2#ixzz1D2w192XX

Guillermo
February 4, 2011, 10:59 PM
Certainly the 45 Long Colt is an outstanding round. The issue is that it requires a longer barrel (than the snub nose) to achieve enough velocity due to the burn rate of the powder.

I do confess that I agree with Bill Ruger who said something to the effect that "only accurate guns are interesting".

You can make the argument, and perhaps win it, that the Judge is accurate enough. After all, most gunfights happen inside of 5 feet.

My standard for me being able to carry a gun for self defense is that I can shoot it with a very good chance of hitting my target. With my daily carry, a 2.5 inch Colt Diamondback, I can consistently hit a pie plate at 15 yards with 5 shots in rapid succession. About 4 seconds. I do not view this as great shooting so I am not bragging. Some guys that post here can smoke me like a cheap cigar. (ask David E what he can do with a J-Frame)

If faced with a self defense scenario I know that my shooting will suffer and I do not want to have collateral damage.

From what I have read this is an unrealistic standard for a snub nosed Judge.

YMMV.

And BTW, if you love your Judge I am happy. Everyone should carry what they want.

SPW1
February 5, 2011, 01:34 AM
Amazing, now we have someone polling the majority of owners of the Judge and Governor, to give us the "why" that caused them to buy it. Or, maybe we have just another Internet Commando making sweeping statements based on their own personal opinion.

If you want to carry a large bulky revolver and having made that choice to carry a bulky gun choose to have it chambered in .410 rather than something more effective your certainly welcome to do so. At least such a gun is easier to shoot than some of the tiny pocket pistols at the other end of the gun size spectrum. I do however stand by my statement that a significant portion of those who purchase a .410 revolver seem to do so because of a rather misguided perception of the capabilities and "power" of such a weapon. This opinion has been formed by listening to salesmen sell them to customers and hearing owners talk about how devastatingly powerful they are.



I personally am of the school of thought that one of the greatest assets a defensive handgun can have is great balance and the ability to point easily and naturally. The most important thing if one should be in so unfortunate a position as to need to use a gun in self defense is the ability to score rapid hits almost without thinking about it. A gun that handles well to begin with along with the muscle memory obtained through practice with it are a lot more important than caliber. I also tend to believe the best defensive pistols fire a cartridge that is "balanced" with the size and weight of the gun. For example I think a properly loaded 357 with at least a four inch barrel makes a great defensive choice in a full size 30+ ounce revolver but I feel a 357 isn't nearly as good a choice in a lightweight, roughly 15 ounce alloy J frame revolver. I think in that application a 38 special or a 32 mag would be a much better choice. Why? because in my opinion it is extremely important to look at a defensive pistol as a system where everything must be balanced out to reach optimum effectiveness. A lot of people become fixated on one aspect of a defensive pistol and in so doing sacrifice other important qualities. You don't want to disregard bulkiness, poor balance, or controllability just to get the handgun chamber in the "most effective" cartridge, nor is it really a great idea in my opinion to go with the smallest and lightest handgun possible on the grounds that you will be carrying it more than you will be shooting it.



My objection to the judge and other .410 revolvers for defensive purposes is not just based on one aspect, but rather on my perception and opinion that they are a rather poorly designed defensive system where disadvantages considerably outweigh any advantages when compared to other choices out there. First you have the fact that .410 out of a short barreled revolver tends to be relatively ineffective. I don't at all doubt it could kill but I do think it tends to be considerably behind a properly loaded 357, 45acp, 10mm, and other rounds which might produce roughly similar recoil, in reliable effectiveness. Then you have the issue that .410 can't be chambered in a normal length revolver and that revolvers chambered for it with their lengthened cylinders just don't tend to balance or carry particularly well. Now with those drawbacks what advantages does a .410 revolver provide for defensive purposes? I have only ever heard two possible advantages put forth barring the obviously inaccurate statement that the few buckshot pellets fired make it easier to hit your target than it is with just one bullet. One is reduced penetration(which could just as easily be considered another drawback) and the other is the ability to make multiple holes in a target with one shot(which again is accomplished at the expense of penetration).



Now with all that said use what ever you want and feel comfortable with. At the end of the day it is your very own personal choice what to use no matter if it be a cheap Davis derringer, a raven 25acp, a colt python 357, a taurus judge or the new smith "governor". However no matter what your choice there are going to be a few people that disagree and that goes doubly if you choose something that a lot of people have serious doubts about. .410 revolvers definitely fit in that category.

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