20 arrested for illeagally buy hundreds of AK-47's


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GambJoe
January 25, 2011, 11:39 PM
20 arrested for illeagally buying hundreds of AK-47's in Arizona.

Been wondering how guns get to the street.:mad:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41257218/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

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Geno
January 25, 2011, 11:49 PM
My brain hurts from reading the article, bountiful with the author's bias. AK-47s are legal?! Seriously?! Wow! Machinegun ban was repealed? Seriously? Where to begin? My brain hurts.

Geno

walker944
January 25, 2011, 11:50 PM
MSNBC, of course....the very first sentence screams "we need more gun laws". Didn't bother reading much more of it.

armoredman
January 25, 2011, 11:55 PM
I have a great deal of difficulty buying this drivel. Timing was too perfect for them, and wouldn't it be interesting if these so called straw deals were part of this rumored Gun Walker thing? It smells, stinks to high heaven.

Geno
January 25, 2011, 11:58 PM
How are the cartels exploiting US gun laws? Straw purchases are unlawful. Bias, uninformed. I felt like sending him an e-mail, and trying to educate him, but I doubt it would take.

Geno

GambJoe
January 26, 2011, 12:00 AM
Not journalism at it's best (just how many hundreds was that?). I wish they stuck to the facts but like when a drug dealer gets caught it's not usually his first time.

NJ Accountant
January 26, 2011, 12:03 AM
First off, good, criminals off the street. May they rot in prison.

This is exactly how to catch them, enforce the existing laws, make the boarder secure and catch them crossing. Assuming this wasn't part of the quasi unethical to downright illegal "gun walker" case.

I'd speculate that this was part of an under cover operation and the guys who told these idiots to buy the guns were, either federal or mexican, law enforcement.

You don't need multiple gun sale reporting. Once in place no criminal will buy multiple long guns in one purchase. It will just become another pointless piece of paperwork.

Geckgo
January 26, 2011, 12:10 AM
I'm gonna step out there and say this. If I sell 20 AK-47s to one person for his own personal use, that's gonna throw a little red flag up in my brain. 4-5, maybe they are just trigger happy and would rather swap guns than change mags, but 20? Why didn't the store owner report this to the ATF at the time of purchase? If they had an easy system for reporting suspicious sales then we could leave it on the shoulders of shop owners.

NOLAEMT
January 26, 2011, 12:19 AM
yep... I work part time for an FFL, and we are told by the ATF to deny any sale that sounds suspicious to us. Buying 20 of the same gun at the same time would immediately throw up some serious flags for me or anyone I work with.

Black Butte
January 26, 2011, 01:15 AM
MSNBC ranks just below the "bat-boy" grocery store tabloids for factual accuracy.

Kentuckiana rifleman
January 26, 2011, 01:25 AM
MSNBC will use shock factor to scare anyone. The liberal gun-grabbers will do anything to make sensible gun laws, and by sensible they mean gun control from the average citizen

J_McLeod
January 26, 2011, 01:27 AM
If we had a secure border, this wouldn't be a problem.

Jim K
January 26, 2011, 01:37 AM
Will MSNBC lie, cheat and steal to promote a gun ban? Sure. But that doesn't mean a gun dealer should not be ethical enough to know where those guns are going and refuse to make the sale, legal or not, or at least report it. I have to think that is one sleazy dealer who doesn't care about the impact of such a sale both through the actions of the eventual owners and on those in a position to enact another ban, possibly worse than the last. In other words, he doesn't give a damn if his greed results in confiscation and destruction of our guns, as long as he makes his money.

Jim

cthulhufan
January 26, 2011, 01:52 AM
Uh, Mexican cartels are most likely not interested in semi-automatic rifles. Perhaps as a last resort. More likely they get their select fire or "fully automatic" rifles elsewhere.

Along with their PKMs and RPGs and whatever else they can afford.

"The massive size of this operation exemplifies the magnitude of the problem — Mexican drug lords go shopping for war weapons in Arizona," said Dennis K. Burke, the U.S. attorney for Arizona, who announced the raids at a press conference in Phoenix.
Yeah, sure, drug lords are after the gimped sporterized semi auto rifles they can pick up from U.S. gun show tables vs. the crates of select fire or fully auto versions they can pick up from China or wherever at half the price. I'm buying that.

TexasBill
January 26, 2011, 02:19 AM
Sounds to me like the folks at Lone Wolf are feds, working for the cartel, or complete idiots. There isn't a gun dealer that I have ever known in past 40 years that wouldn't ask some serious questions before even considering such a sale. Including my stint working in a gun store that was long before the modern cartels, 9/11 or Al Qaeda.

tunnug
January 26, 2011, 02:40 AM
Jared Loughner is accused of taking advantage of those laws to acquire a Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol (Quote)

Really?!!!, Which laws did he take advantage of? the guy is a nutcase that should have been reported to a mental health organization (we have one) by some of the people he interacted with.
Sensationalism at its best.

Davey Wavey
January 26, 2011, 02:44 AM
I love the image at the top. I would love to have 8+ ak47 barrelts pointed at me.

General Tso
January 26, 2011, 02:56 AM
I strongly support the second amendment, however, if something isn't done about things like this, we will lose some/all of our rights. What about a limit on purchases within a given time? Not a record of what was purchased, just a firearm. Any ideas?

Deus Machina
January 26, 2011, 03:01 AM
Bah, that's an infringement, too. There's plenty of guys here that have probably bought half a dozen guns in a week, or more. Have to grab a deal when it comes along, not when your wait time is up.

On the other hand, while the ATF wanting reports of multiple long-gun sales is BS, if someone's buying a dozen of the same type at a time, that should be a sign.

Mp7
January 26, 2011, 03:04 AM
While i donīt like journalism that connects fact that have no relevance to each other,
if find it amazing that on the pro-gun side the ignorance seems almost the same.

Repeating the idea that cartels need FA-rifles and can get them by the crate from northkorea instead of just getting some semiautos from the US .... doesnīt make it better.

Itīs not black and white and not Fox and the Huffington Post either.


So after all, while many gun nuts collect AKs ... and never do anything unlawful with them ... it does make sense for "society" to raise a flag on someone who buys more hi-cap guns that anyone without his own militia or gang could need?

:)

Davey Wavey
January 26, 2011, 03:05 AM
Will these brand new, I'm assuming brand new, rifles ever see the light of day again? Or will they forever sit in an evidence locker or some day turned into truck parts?

oerllikon
January 26, 2011, 04:32 AM
This article is a joke. Pretty much everything has been said that needs to be said. I thought it was insane that any gun store would sell 20 AKs at a time. Something definitely isnt right about this.
The Jared Loughner reference wasnt needed at all. I guess someone will write about the last crap you took if you pay them enough. Someone apparently wants some leverage for upcoming bills etc

GambJoe
January 26, 2011, 11:20 AM
Is there enough law enforcement to catch every criminal, committing every crime in this country? Sure there's laws against drug trafficking, using. corruption, money laundering and what ever else is out there but try to catch everyone. Mexicans come and go across the border legally everyday I'm sure they can make arrangements to smuggle without much effort. I doubt criminals are getting ar's and glocks from NK. If an FFL wants to make a little extra money what's to stop him.

If there is a way to track and limit purchases of certain weapons that doesn't infringe on my 2A rights, even if those regs cut back on crime by 5%, I'll just consider it well part of being well regulated. I'm not certain how those laws will look but you have to be smarter than the criminals.

gym
January 26, 2011, 12:56 PM
I hope they don't crush them, the way the president was talking last night, we aren't going to have enough of our own. Cutting military spending.

dirtykid
January 26, 2011, 01:03 PM
Im not buying it either,, why would they buy some high-priced NEW gun that im guessing CANNOT be made into full auto or burst/selective very easily. instead of trying to secure some military grade weapons from another country ?? freakin-media is out of control in this country and too many people stare into the box and will repeat word-for-word what they hear until it becomes their reality,,, or maybe im wrong and the mexican cartels are already a step-ahead of us,, hopefully they can mod those AR's with better craftmanship than everything else that country produces,,, !!

cassandrasdaddy
January 26, 2011, 01:05 PM
im guessing CANNOT be made into full auto or burst/selective very easily.

you are guessing incorrectly

brickeyee
January 26, 2011, 01:12 PM
How are the cartels exploiting US gun laws? Straw purchases are unlawful. Bias, uninformed. I felt like sending him an e-mail, and trying to educate him, but I doubt it would take.

The problem is ignorance can be cured, but stupid goes clear to the bone.

DragonFire
January 26, 2011, 01:12 PM
if something isn't done about things like this, we will lose some/all of our rights. What about a limit on purchases within a given time?


Isn't a limit a loss of one of our rights?

Giving in "a little" just leads to having less the next time you have to give in.

Making a law to make something illegal more illegal is stupid. Do you really think a criminal will commit a crime if he's only facing 2 life sentences but not 3? Really?

ants
January 26, 2011, 01:18 PM
In one case, officials said, seven individuals spent $104,251 in cash at various Phoenix-area firearms dealers to acquire 140 firearms.
$104,251 divided by 140 rifles is $750 apiece.
I certainly hope they got AR rifles for that money.
I hope they didn't buy AK's at $750 each.

These idiots are going to start another price hike scare.

Madcap_Magician
January 26, 2011, 01:49 PM
I think that sounds like a pretty rotten dealer, if you ask me. If some Hispanic dude comes up to the counter and asks how many AK-47s you have, then wants to buy all of them with cash, should that not set off at least ONE alarm bell for a store clerk?

Birdmang
January 26, 2011, 01:53 PM
Would it matter if it was a white guy asking how many AKs and wants them in cash?

merlinfire
January 26, 2011, 02:00 PM
Just because a sear can be filed down to make a gun "run away" doesn't mean its select fire or full auto in the conventional, or at least useful, sense. So as another member has mentioned, why would you buy a semi-auto at inflated American prices, and spend the time and money to convert them to proper select fire weapons, when you could buy them by the frigging crateload from other countries with laws much more lax, for half the price?

It almost seems like people want the US's gun industry to be relevant to the problems in Mexico. But its just not.

230therapy
January 26, 2011, 02:05 PM
It just seems very, very odd to me that a cartel would send men into the US to buy semi-automatic guns at retail price. Why would they do that when they can order a ship full of military grade weapons from China and pay significantly less per item? Furthermore, why deal with US Customs when the professional smuggling organization can just have the weapons dropped off in a Mexican port?

Mozart 2
January 26, 2011, 02:12 PM
I had to laugh when the article repeatedly used the phrase "exploiting gun laws." Isn't that what criminals do? Did I miss something? So we're to conclude that U.S. laws are responsible for Mexican violence?

If someone breaks a law, clearly that means we should change the law...or add more laws...:confused:

How 'bout this: if someone breaks the law you catch them and punish them and then continue to enforce the law...

Geckgo
January 26, 2011, 02:14 PM
I'm guessing that these were for the cartel organizations stateside rather than for transport to Mexico, either that or the Mexican government has some clever way of keeping crates of automatic weapons into the country. Either way, people have their reasons. Personally, I think the FFLs that were selling these guns need to be investigated and possibly closed down and the sales reps tried for treason.

JohnBiltz
January 26, 2011, 02:17 PM
I don't doubt there is smuggling of guns into Mexico. If you have something banned on one side of a border that is legal on the other there is going to be smuggling. You can log that into rules like death and taxes. I don't think its going on in the kind of numbers that are being tossed around by the media. Seems like there would be a lot more arrests than we are seeing. This arrest is being treated like some one finally caught a big foot. Nor do we know they were going to the cartels. A lot of people in Mexico right now are worried about defending themselves not that I think the guy probably cares who he sells stuff to.

NJ Accountant
January 26, 2011, 02:28 PM
Guy walks into an auto dealer and asks how many white vans they have on the lot. Dealer says 20, Guy says he'll take em all, fill out the paperwork and pay in cash.

Sounds like an intelligent way to get vans for illegal activity in Mexico. You know buying brthis new overpriced vans with a paper trail that have all kinds of unessary crap that limit their usefulness and speed.

This sounds like the way most drug cartels get their vehicles rights?

We should probably make a law about this.

GambJoe
January 26, 2011, 03:31 PM
Guy walks into an auto dealer and asks how many white vans they have on the lot. Dealer says 20, Guy says he'll take em all, fill out the paperwork and pay in cash.

Sounds like an intelligent way to get vans for illegal activity in Mexico. You know buying brthis new overpriced vans with a paper trail that have all kinds of unessary crap that limit their usefulness and speed.

This sounds like the way most drug cartels get their vehicles rights?

We should probably make a law about this.


You can take logic only so far. Apples and oranges. I'm sure many fleet owners buy 20 cars at a clip but they get to register them for commercial or personal use.

Hey take a carrot. Someone from a drug cartel could go out to any vegatable stand and buy 20 carrots. Now if these drug cartel members were highly trained marshal arts experts they could probably drive even the thinnest carrot thru some cops eye socket and into their skull. Killer carrots.

You going to make a law for carrots?

Vans are for driving, transporting and delivery. Guns are for shooting and killing and carrots are for eating.

Mozart 2
January 26, 2011, 03:38 PM
You can take logic only so far.

Vans are for driving, transporting and delivery. Guns are for shooting and killing...


I'll bet that fleet of 20 vans kills far more people than my 20 guns ever will...

jbrown50
January 26, 2011, 03:47 PM
In case you haven't read this before; it's an eye opener.

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/#

You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

NJ Accountant
January 26, 2011, 03:57 PM
I wasn't even talking about the lethality of the vans or purpose for having, I was make a comparison of business sense in buying van or guns in the US new to use in the drug trade. In comparison to other sources; ie stolen from the us, bought used, stolen from Mexican police and military. This is all documented as happening in Mexico with both vehicles and firearms.

Or they just assault a Mexican precinct and take all their weapons using fully automatic military machine guns, grenades and grenade launchers. None of which come from straw purchases in the USA.

NJ Accountant
January 26, 2011, 04:18 PM
The whole thing just stinks.

Why would gun runners be buying AK 's from the US at over 700 a semi rifle? When the highest a black market new Russian AK has sold for in the last 10 years was 300 and Chinese made could be found for less than a 100 a rifle and they are automatic to boot.

bhk
January 26, 2011, 04:36 PM
My guess is that these guns are being smuggled to Mexico by low-level criminals south of the border that don't have the formal 'connections' the big drug cartels do. Those with connections can get much more potent weapons at much cheaper prices from countries other that ours.

JayBird
January 26, 2011, 05:41 PM
Back in the day when the first large quantities of SKS rifles hit the market, I knew plenty of LAW ABIDING people that were picking them up in multiple quantities since they were plentiful and cheap.

While I can understand that this particular incident in the article should have raised some red flags, I wouldn't always say that "Any time someone buys multiple of the same firearm, the ATF needs to be notified"

If I have the money, and want to buy 10 Ruger Mark III 22's, should I get a knock on the door from ATF asking me if I am starting an army?

And what would be the number that required an automatic notification to ATF, 20, 10, 5....2???????

While I totally disagree with what these criminals did, it should not require any knee jerk reaction in the form of legislation. If an FFL thinks something is fishy, he\she should notify the authorities, however mandating it to be done is just asking for trouble, and giving the federal government one more way of infringing on law abiding citizens right to bear arms.

robhof
January 26, 2011, 05:54 PM
The part that they leave out about the guns from the US is that they are US Govt weapons given to the Mexican Anti-drug forces and either stolen or sold by their agents to the cartels. Mexican police make about $150 per month, sell a crate of free guns and make a year's wages, and maybe get a free; don't shoot me, pass from the cartel.

2ndAmFan
January 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
I had a pretty good little argument on the comment section of a Liberal online publication a few months ago when I mentioned that the Mexican Cartels do NOT need civilian US guns to continue the violence in Mexico. They can get plenty of those supplied to the Mexican government by the US government. Also, considering North Korea and Pakistan are both heavily involved in illegal arms and drug trafficking, and various South and Central American countries will sell guns to almost anyone with cash I don't know why Mexican drug gangs bother with overpriced American guns at all. It's all about scaring the sheeple into thinking that disarming law-abiding US citizens and legal residents will make the gangsters play nice.

russ69
January 27, 2011, 05:27 PM
I'm still having problems with this story (lack of a story). Federal agents legally bought guns, then they did something with them? Where's the story? Who broke what law? What are the charges? Who was charged? This is the reason I don't get my news from "news agencies". How hard is it to put this story together? Where are the facts? This story is an editorial absent of all facts. WTH.

gym
January 27, 2011, 06:19 PM
Din they forget that we gave Bin Ladin all of his weapons when he was at war with the Russians. It depends on what day it is in this Global climate.

NoviceClays1989
January 27, 2011, 06:38 PM
Just gotta say, Geno, love the prayer.

danprkr
January 27, 2011, 06:59 PM
So after all, while many gun nuts collect AKs ... and never do anything unlawful with them ... it does make sense for "society" to raise a flag on someone who buys more hi-cap guns that anyone without his own militia or gang could need?


And just who exactly sets the number that someone needs? I guarantee that no matter who sets that number some on this board who are law abiding, and honest exceeds it. In some cases I may be in that set of members. Who are you or the gov to set my 'need'?

danprkr
January 27, 2011, 07:00 PM
What is this 'gun walker' that was referenced? Did I miss something?

suzukisam
January 27, 2011, 07:43 PM
okay, so I'm missing something here! whats wrong with buying 20 ak's in one purchase? Our constitution gives us the right to stock munitions against anyone that threatens our sovereignty, foreign or domestic. maybe someone wants 20 battle rifles 500 mags and two pallets of ammo, just in case he needs to defends himself. sounds reasonable to me

Liberal sare using you guys against yourself. all I've heard since tucson is "someone should never have let him buy a gun" and "20 guns at once that dealer is crooked". But none of this was against the law. we live in a free country. with freedom comes threats of violence. Even "we" who understand the need to be responsible for our own safety start seeking legislation to be preventative. It is thin ice people! these people are bad and crazy. but they didn't break the law till they committed the crime. the crime wasn't buying 20 ak's and it wasn't loughner buying the glock. the crime was smuggling, and murder. and it isn't preventable unless your ready to hand over all freedom to the government. people need to stop walking the streets helpless and defenseless and being victims. there should have been security in AZ for congress on the corner. that creep should have been shot the second his gun was fired, or used in a threatening manner. everyone wants to believe we live in a civilized society, the problems is that no one told the uncivilized

rfwobbly
January 27, 2011, 08:38 PM
MSNBC ranks just below the "bat-boy" grocery store tabloids for factual accuracy.

No, it's definitely right below aliens helping Bill Clinton win the 1996 election.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6MYxNzDjf8U/SaaWlaKX3XI/AAAAAAAAB_8/sKeAy40Lyd8/s400/alien.jpg

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 27, 2011, 09:00 PM
I thought the weapons of choice for the cartels was the M16.
http://www.economicnoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/mexican-drug-cartel.jpg
Just because a sear can be filed down to make a gun "run away" doesn't mean its select fire or full auto in the conventional, or at least useful, sense. So as another member has mentioned, why would you buy a semi-auto at inflated American prices, and spend the time and money to convert them to proper select fire weapons, when you could buy them by the frigging crateload from other countries with laws much more lax, for half the price?

I thought that the AK rifles that are Semi automatic are only missing a hole or holes and the full auto parts.

dec41971
January 27, 2011, 09:08 PM
Rather than stick our heads in the sand and act like it doesn't happen? How about some sensible solutions to this menace? I mean sensible without infringing on 2A rights. For sure something is clearly going on even if you want to posit that maybe there is exaggeration and fudging of facts. :confused:

Patriot1/3
January 27, 2011, 09:16 PM
I call BS. This was a sting (set-up). Just paving the way for libs to tighten the noose.

merlinfire
January 27, 2011, 11:36 PM
I thought that the AK rifles that are Semi automatic are only missing a hole or holes and the full auto parts.

Hah, I didn't know that.

GambJoe
January 27, 2011, 11:43 PM
okay, so I'm missing something here! whats wrong with buying 20 ak's in one purchase? Our constitution gives us the right to stock munitions against anyone that threatens our sovereignty, foreign or domestic. maybe someone wants 20 battle rifles 500 mags and two pallets of ammo, just in case he needs to defends himself. sounds reasonable to me

Where does it say that?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Geckgo
January 27, 2011, 11:47 PM
not saying the guy should be stopped from buying 20 AKs, a pallet of ammunition, or an arsenal of RPGs (with the tax stamps, of course :D ) But it would give the buero people something to do to drop in on the guy and verify whether this was a trigger happy gun nut that wanted an arsenal of AKs, or whether he had a single gun in his house when they stopped by. If they dropped in and there were no guns, say a week after the purchase, then something is fishy. As someone said, uphold the laws we have and one of those laws is against straw purchases.

suzukisam
January 28, 2011, 01:59 AM
all I was commenting on was the previous posters who made a blanket judgement for selling 20 ak's in a sale.. IMO I think the last thing we need is dealers reporting legal activity... now if someone walks in and buys a gun and asks for one bullet, or two..and mumbles something like she's gonna pay.. I would refuse to sell the gun.. and call the local police department..:eek:

Davek1977
January 28, 2011, 03:50 AM
all I was commenting on was the previous posters who made a blanket judgement for selling 20 ak's in a sale.. IMO I think the last thing we need is dealers reporting legal activity... now if someone walks in and buys a gun and asks for one bullet, or two..and mumbles something like she's gonna pay.. I would refuse to sell the gun.. and call the local police department..

So, when YOU are suspicious of a sale, its OK to report it, but if someone else feels sometthing is amiss, they shouldn't call the authorities? In neither case was a crime committed......yet you say you'd call in one case, and admonish others for doing so in the other.......it comes down to a judgement call, and not everyone is going to make the calls that you would, or vice versa. While I don't agree with mandatory reporting, I don't believe dealers should EVER hesitate to let someone know if they feel something just isn't quite right about a sale. If someone came in and asked to buy 10 AK's....it might raise an eyebrow or two, but wouldn't automaitcally put me on high altert. If someone came in, asked how many AKs I had in stock, and despite quoting 30-40, they say "i'll take 'em" and whip out wads of cash before asking about prices, specific models, calibers, etc and the like......yeah, thats not typical, not by a long shot, and would likely raise my suspicions to the point I'd call the ATF.....

wendelb
January 28, 2011, 04:08 AM
Yeah sure, but AKs are one of the easiest things to turn full auto... it's just illegal to do it (make a new auto sear or jimmy rig it)... but even then, they could be taking a page out of the book from most militaries... semi or three round burst. Full auto is usually pretty inefficient. Though I'm sure plenty will dispute that. Dispute or not, I'd rather have a semi than full auto in a gun fight. And cartels are going that way too. Full on squads with riflemen, and then one or two machine gunners for supporting fire.

Cartels are actually getting some pretty well trained shoot teams, guys bothering enough to use one-point slings, create reload tags on their mags.... been lots of personalized gear found at shootings. Not that you were saying there weren't, just throwing the info out there. I get a lot of crime scene reports for Mexico and the border.

therewolf
January 28, 2011, 05:28 AM
So let's recap:
1) The very ATF which, up to now, has made it painfully apparent to the most casual observer that they have trouble finding the GROUND UNDERNEATH THEIR FEET all of a sudden made a sweeping series of arrests and confiscations, with
evidence, data to support gun-grabber's claims, monetary information,etc.

2)Somehow, after demonstrating not only that the ATF CAN do their jobs IF and WHEN it supports the current administration's interests for propaganda purposes,
but they will do so, especially when the administration has a fact-finding ploy to further attempt to curtail our RKBA; they are completely willing to ignore the fact that if they CAN do their jobs like they are claiming to have just clearly demonstrated, theoretically, further laws against law abiding gun owners and purchasers should be unnecessary, RIGHT? ATF's got it ALL under control.
(all of a sudden)

3)Store owners supposedly being paid twice what the "AK47s" are worth, especially at wholesale, did nothing to protect themselves or their buyers,
who are obviously the ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH who don't know the value of a WASR, or how to negotiate a volume purchase. Be real, deals like these
don't get made wholesale at 200% of the value of the gun, or, for that matter, across the counter.(Straw Man)- "Yeah, I'd like to openly buy EVERY AK you've got,
but I can only pay you TWICE WHAT THEY'RE WORTH, GOT A MEGAPHONE? MAYBE THERE'S SOMEBODY WITHIN A TWENTY MILE RADIUS WHO
DIDN'T NOTICE WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE!!

Well, you can call me a numb-nutz if you want, but IMO, to say this story stinks is like calling a sewage plant a beer fart.

BAD monkey! NO peanut!

NJ Accountant
January 28, 2011, 10:02 AM
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/open-letter-to-senate-judiciary-committee-staff-on-project-gunwalker?do_not_mobile_redirect=1

Heh guess I can post links with some difficultly.

Project gunwalker is a story only being covered by 2nd amendment writers who claim to have whistle blowers from inside the atf who wish to come forward with information about project gunrunner and possible illegal acts taken by the atf. At this time they are trying to get whistle blower protection for the agents that wish to come forward.

suzukisam
January 28, 2011, 01:05 PM
UI was posting an example of someone who was openly making it clear they had ILLEGAL intensions... and purchasing a gun to commit a crime is illegal if the dealer has knowledge of it. That is where I think this whole lands. If they were a legit dealer and they knew, then string them up. But the fact alone of what was pirchased doesn't seem to me to determine guilt

KBintheSLC
January 28, 2011, 01:37 PM
This wreaks of pretext for a global UN small arms control treaty. I have no doubt that they are pumping the primer for such a move.

merlinfire
January 28, 2011, 01:59 PM
But the fact alone of what was pirchased doesn't seem to me to determine guilt

That's been my thought. If something is legal to possess, and there is no limit on how much you can legally possess, what difference does it make by what degree I increase my level of possession of legally obtained and owned items.

It's like saying they'd like a soft cap on ownership even if there's not a hard cap that would pass muster.


If the person buying them could not legally own them, then I don't care if he was buying one or a hundred and one, he's a lawbreaker.

NJ Accountant
January 28, 2011, 02:27 PM
There is also the possibility that the dealers informed the atf of suspicious activity before or after the sale and were told to go ahead with it. It is also possible they knew all along and the end buyer in Mexico who they we suppose to deliver them to was law enforcement too or an informant.

It was rumored that a bust/arrest was supposed to happen, this was written about 4 days before the arrest. The columnist who writes for the examiner from my post about project gunwalker alludes to this possibility.

suzukisam
January 28, 2011, 07:58 PM
It's like saying they'd like a soft cap on ownership even if there's not a hard cap that would pass muster.

this is a better way of saying what I've been trying to express. I just don't like seeing the gun community go along with this mentality. we should be clear where the crime was committed.

Bubbles
February 24, 2011, 09:38 AM
A month of additional investigation by CBS totally shreds MSNBC's story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.1

danprkr
February 24, 2011, 10:11 AM
If we had a secure border, this wouldn't be a problem.

Amen brother!

quatin
February 24, 2011, 10:45 AM
Where does it say that?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

What are you trying to say here? That "keep and bear Arms" applies to limited quantities?

Safetychain
February 24, 2011, 10:45 AM
Hey you posters! When you complain about the gun stores not reporting the multiple gun sales, how about reading the "CBS NEWS" post that states "Often bought with cash, and sometimes brought in paper bags, sources tell CBS News that several gun shops wanted to stop the questionable sales, but were encouraged to continue selling by the ATF, so that they could continue gathering intelligence and see where the weapons ended up." The ATF cannot have it both ways. If I were selling and been told by the ATF to "Don't worry, be happy" I'd go ahead and make my money and tell all my other gun store buddies about it. If we didn't have such a farce of a border situation, there wouldn't be any problem.

NJ Accountant
February 24, 2011, 02:26 PM
I honestly had doubts when I first read about this. I thought ok maybe there was some thing got out of hand, the bad guys slipped through the cracks and a tragedy happen But once news hit about 30 arrested and hundreds of guns siezed. It stunk and I got a sinking feeling that it was bad.

I just wonder where this will go and if that agents family will get vindicated or if this will all be another "oops our bad, promise it wont happen again."

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/vindication-cbs-runs-definitive.html

I hope the light shine bright on what happened.

Kalashnikovkid
February 24, 2011, 07:48 PM
These stories always make me laugh.

If you watch the video at the bottom of the link on the story, they inevitably show crate after crate of short barreled rifles, and toys with the giggle switch still enabled, and then try to equate the straw buyers they claim to be causing such a problem to be buying such weapons. However, as I'm sure everyone here already knows, unless gunstores across the border regularly stock Class III items that can be bought in mass, and NFA rules no longer apply so there isn't a 3-6 month wait while the ATF investigates your background to so that you can acquire ONE weapon from a finite pool, then this reeks of media bias and bad journaling.

I vote we get our own correspondents to do a story that shows this "issue" in its TRUE light. Or perhaps they media would like to explain away why so little legislative/executive action has been effective in stemming the flow of drugs that stream INTO this country? I'm also STILL waiting for a story that explains what happened to all of those fully automatic REAL assault rifles that have been used in the number of internal wars/civil conflicts amongst South American and Central American countries in the last few decades, but that answer might imply that a government (like Mexico's!), would do something so corrupt as sell assault rifles to Drug Cartel's and terrorist. Oops, I also forgot, in Mexico, the Drug Cartel's and the government are sometimes one in the same.

Silly me!

Guess I'll go have some more Kool-Aid and forget :)

GRIZ22
February 24, 2011, 08:06 PM
More likely they get their select fire or "fully automatic" rifles elsewhere.

The drug cartels illegally import tons of illicit drugs. Why would a few hundred or a few thousand "full automatic" weapons be an issue to them? AKs from China, M16s left in Vietnam, there are a lot of people out there with such items,

Davek1977
February 25, 2011, 04:00 AM
Yeah, its pretty naive to think a group capable of smuggling entire cargo ships full of drugs wouldn't be as equally capable of importing weapons from venues where they would be easier to acquire, as opposed to buying civilian-grade weapons en mass from gun shops in the US

bubba15301
February 25, 2011, 04:18 PM
atf knew all about this - was part of their project gunrunner

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