Can a non-US Citizen shoot my guns? (MI)


PDA






bigalexe
January 26, 2011, 12:35 AM
I have a question that I believe the answer yes but I wanted to check.

Can a non-citizen shoot my firearms with me present? Are there limitations on what firearms they can and cannot handle?

For the sake of discussion lets assume the individuals:
1.) Are here legally
2.) Have a spotless criminal record and mental health
3.) Are from a country we are on good terms with (like Canada or the UK)
4.) Never handle equipment without me present (No shooty if I go take a poopy)
5.) I am a regular US Citizen
6.) Target shooting, not hunting
7.) Are in the state of Michigan on Private land

If you enjoyed reading about "Can a non-US Citizen shoot my guns? (MI)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Nushif
January 26, 2011, 12:40 AM
... yes.
Yes. Very much so.
I'm not sure about the buying part, but I'm pretty darned sure they're not barred from EVER TOUCHING ONE OF OUR GREAT 'MERRRICAN FREEDOMS.

If they are, I'm guilty of this crime on many, many, many accounts.

bigalexe
January 26, 2011, 12:45 AM
They wouldn't be buying because they may not be staying. Talking about friends from college on student visas.

JayBird
January 26, 2011, 12:56 AM
I dont know about MI, but I know it happens in plenty of other states all the time.

I have went to public and private ranges countless times with friends from foreign countries over here visiting. And I am planning on doing it again here in about a month with a friend from the UK.

I have even heard it is a big part of the typical Japanese tourist trade in Hawaii to bring them to a gun range and have them shoot a gun.

NavyLCDR
January 26, 2011, 12:56 AM
I don't see any problem at all.

SmokeySam81
January 26, 2011, 01:05 AM
Since the subject is here, what about hunting? Of course they would have to take the classes, and possibly get a nonresident permit, but would they be barred from hunting? I have some friends in Denmark who are thinking of sending their son to go to high school here for a year or so, and I think shooting and possibly hunting would be a wonderful thing for him to experience.

NavyLCDR
January 26, 2011, 01:42 AM
As long as he gets a hunting license and game tags, no problem.

okespe04
January 26, 2011, 02:23 AM
Gun tourism is quite popular here in Oregon. One of our local gun shops / shooting ranges offers use of a full auto "Tommy Gun". Half the time I see people doing the paper work to shoot it they have European accents.

bigfatdave
January 26, 2011, 06:31 AM
The answer is yes.

The deeper question is:
Why do you ask permission? You don't need permission from your masters to show someone your possessions, whether they're playing with a birdhouse you built, a tractor, a weapon, or an electronic toy.

BaltimoreBoy
January 26, 2011, 11:31 AM
Another gun tourism item: When on vacation in Hawaii, I ran across a shooting range being advertised exclusively with Japanese script. It was catering to Japanese tourists who want a chance to shoot while in the U.S. Amusingly, the range actually has the guns on fixed mounts with a little wobble so that the customers (who are prone to be incredibly unsafe) can't point anywhere except downrange.

My father in law and I took a Japanese house guest to shoot and also got her a non-resident NRA membership so she could see the NRA convention when it was last in Kansas City.

cavman
January 26, 2011, 11:38 AM
I received an update of 2011 NRA shooting rule changes a few minutes ago.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rulechanges.asp

In the Bullseye rules, http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_conv_pistol_11.pdf, it addresses this issue:

"2.1.1 Non-U.S. Citizens - Non-U.S. Citizens who are
also non Residents, may compete in any NRA Sanctioned
Tournament, unless further restrictions are imposed by
conditions stated in the program."

fractal7
January 26, 2011, 11:40 AM
This was the topic of a thread several years ago

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145870


There is some extensive copy and pasting of the legal code in there, and from what it looks like, its OK at an FFL dealer/range, but it seems like a gray area for an individual to take a nonresident alien shooting.

Also the ATF FAQ addresses some of the issues here as well. Once again not totally clear depending on the situation. But it says that its legal if they are competing in some type of event, which would explain the NRA rule.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html

oneounceload
January 26, 2011, 01:25 PM
nonresident aliens can BUY guns, so shooting them is a non-issue

Nar
January 26, 2011, 01:33 PM
I don't know about there. but here in NH we have taken a few of the exchange students from the collage shooting. Never had any issues about it.

Balrog
January 26, 2011, 01:35 PM
what if they work for the evil doers?

oneounceload
January 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
what if they work for the evil doers?

Then you have a perfect teaching moment.............

fractal7
January 26, 2011, 02:42 PM
If you look at the ATF FAQ, there are exceptions to when nonresident aliens can buy guns but its not an automatic thing for them.

Q: May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?

Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1. nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;
2. nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;
3. certain diplomats, if the firearms are for official duties;
4. officials of foreign governments, if the firearms are for official duties, or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;
5. foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and
6. persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.

Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien cannot purchase a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or admission number from the Department of Homeland Security (formerly the Immigration and Naturalization Service) and (2) can provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a State within the United States for 90 consecutive days immediately prior to the firearms transaction.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(b) and 922(y), 27 CFR 478.124, ATF Rul. 2004-1]

Patriot1/3
January 27, 2011, 09:03 PM
Can a non-US Citizen shoot my guns? (MI)

I wouldn't even consider that option.

Hawthorne2k
January 27, 2011, 09:05 PM
For the sake of discussion lets assume the individuals:
1.) Are here legally
2.) Have a spotless criminal record and mental health
3.) Are from a country we are on good terms with (like Canada or the UK)
4.) Never handle equipment without me present (No shooty if I go take a poopy)
5.) I am a regular US Citizen

As a non-citizen Canadian with a fairly decent gun collection, in my opinion, you should be ok.

dec41971
January 28, 2011, 01:08 AM
I have a question that I believe the answer yes but I wanted to check.

Can a non-citizen shoot my firearms with me present? Are there limitations on what firearms they can and cannot handle?

For the sake of discussion lets assume the individuals:
1.) Are here legally
2.) Have a spotless criminal record and mental health
3.) Are from a country we are on good terms with (like Canada or the UK)
4.) Never handle equipment without me present (No shooty if I go take a poopy)
5.) I am a regular US Citizen
6.) Target shooting, not hunting
7.) Are in the state of Michigan on Private land
Yes they can as long as they are Legally in the country. That means big no-no for illegal aliens. If they are a legal Immigrant (green card holder) they may also buy guns and get CCW. About the only thing a legal immigrant is barred from is voting. I do know legal immigrants who own guns, and I see lots of legal non-immigrants at the range. Popular thing with depends of foreign diplomats around DC. They just go to ranges in VA for a jolly good time. Mostly because it their home countries merely touching a gun will land you in the can. Japanese go to Hawaii ranges and pay a lot of $$$ just to shoot.

Diamondback6
January 28, 2011, 01:11 AM
Only state with a problem I know of is Soviet Socialist Kleptocracy of Washingtonistan with our bullcrap "Alien Firearms License" requirement--and even then it has some exceptions allowed.

dec41971
January 28, 2011, 01:21 AM
Only state with a problem I know of is Soviet Socialist Kleptocracy of Washingtonistan with our bullcrap "Alien Firearms License" requirement--and even then it has some exceptions allowed.
huh? Is that not just about ownership? Shooting is ok even in DC of all places. Ironic huh?? Yeah but DC makes sure you have no way of even legally getting your hands on a gun to begin with, and there isn't a range to go shoot at. Never mind neighboring VA has like 6 guns per household and ofcourse like half the criminals in DC are packing heat. That at DC got 100x the crime rage of gun over run VA.

kingpin008
January 28, 2011, 11:49 AM
The deeper question is:
Why do you ask permission? You don't need permission from your masters to show someone your possessions, whether they're playing with a birdhouse you built, a tractor, a weapon, or an electronic toy.


Because in the real world gun laws are complicated and confusing, and the agency that is charged with enforcing them is known for being both strict and severe when it believes a law has been broken. Wanting to know (and follow) the law is not a bad thing.

The deeper question, to me, is why you keep posting things like this that are both unhelpful and condescending, instead of proposing ways to change things. Little is gained by the former, while much is possible with the latter.

Art Eatman
January 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
Question answered...

If you enjoyed reading about "Can a non-US Citizen shoot my guns? (MI)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!