UK: Bullets cache found in PC murder raid


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Zedicus
December 31, 2003, 04:49 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/31/npc131.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/31/ixnewstop.html

Bullets cache found in Pc murder raid
By Paul Stokes and Nick Britten
(Filed: 31/12/2003)


Ballistic experts were yesterday examining bullet-making equipment discovered at a lock-up in the hunt for the killer of Pc Ian Broadhurst.

Police raided the premises close to Leeds city centre after a tip-off in response to their publication of a photograph of the suspect, American-born Nathan Wayne Coleman, on Monday.

A quantity of illegal home-made 9mm ammunition, a bullet re-loader and components were being checked to see if they were linked to the Boxing Day murder.

Police are also anxious to determine whether Coleman, who does not possess a firearms certificate, was connected with the equipment.

Det Supt Chris Gregg, the senior investigating officer, agreed that if he was linked to the lock-up, Coleman could be armed with a substantial amount of ammunition.

Pc Broadhurst, 34, was shot twice by a man who produced a pistol while being held in the rear of a police car on suspicion of stealing a BMW.

The constable's traffic colleague Pc Neil Roper, 45, was also hit twice but is said to be "well on the road to recovery" after emergency surgery.

A local patrol officer Pc James Banks, 26, was saved when a shot passed through his radio battery and ricocheted off his baton.

Mr Gregg said: "We don't know why the person sitting in a black BMW reading the Racing Post decided to open fire on three unarmed officers. I'm sure it would have been possible to escape without shooting at these officers.

"The simple production of a firearm would have been sufficient to make those officers withdraw. What drove that person to pull the trigger? We don't know."

Coleman became a suspect after police found his ground floor bedsit in Oakwood, Leeds unattended on Sunday night. A getaway car used by the gunman was discovered abandoned half a mile away nine hours after the shooting.

Coleman is known to have taken a taxi from Oakwood to the centre of Bradford, talking to the driver about seeking B & B accommodation, less than four hours after the shooting.

The search for him was being concentrated within 20 miles of his home by detectives who received 300 calls from the public after releasing his photograph.

He is believed to have spent most of his time in Yorkshire since arriving in England in the mid-Nineties, finding work as a nightclub doorman.

According to his ex-wife he is interested in survival skills and it is thought that he may consider "living rough".

The last positive sighting was on Monday lunchtime in Brighouse, 20 miles from Leeds, from where CCTV tapes were being examined along with others from Bradford.

Coleman settled in Selby, North Yorkshire, when he moved to England and worked on the door at Corina's nightclub.

It was there he met Denise Horsley, a divorcee with two children, whom he married in March 1997 at Kendal register office in Cumbria. He told her he was from Florida, but nobody was born there by that name on June 28 1968, the date of birth he gave on official documents.

Their marriage lasted about a year and he moved out of her home at Brayton Junction, near Selby. His ex-wife, who has re-married, asked to be taken into protective custody after Coleman was identified as the suspect.

Mr Gregg said: "The person who killed Ian Broadhurst is clearly a dangerous man who is known to be armed. We need to question Mr Coleman in regard to that murder."

Coleman is known to be a heavy gambler. Mr Gregg asked workers in bookmakers' shops and casinos, and hoteliers and bed and breakfast proprietors to inform police if he is seen.


I am at a loss for words to describe my thoughts on this....:banghead:

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Cool Hand Luke 22:36
December 31, 2003, 04:58 PM
Two thoughts:

1. It's a shame there's no death penalty in the UK. That policy should be reconsidered.

2. Condolences to the family of the slain Police Constable.

Zedicus
December 31, 2003, 05:46 PM
I feel the same, however (I should have said so) I was refering to the american being arrested for having reloding equipment and some 9mm rounds...

It's nuts!.:cuss:

Cosmoline
December 31, 2003, 06:35 PM
If I were transported to the UK, I would be put away for life for all the firearms I've got. They'd consider me a greater threat than any real criminal. The UK is an Orwellian nightmare state. Of course some of our own Eastern states are no better.

agricola
December 31, 2003, 07:10 PM
the main suspect for this, a US citizen, has been arrested and is currently being questioned by Police investigating the murder of Pc Broadhurst and the attempted murder of Pc Roper and the extremely lucky (bullet was deflected off his radio) Pc Banks.

Zedicus:

I was refering to the american being arrested for having reloding equipment and some 9mm rounds...

this is beneath even you given what he had and used them for. Diddums that the poor American will face these charges in addition to the murder, attempted murder, handling stolen goods and possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life charges.

A pity we cannot send this scum back to you air-freight and on two different planes.

cosmoline,

yeah, I can see how them going after the murderer of one of their collegues makes this all too Orwellian for your tastes :rolleyes:


oh and happy new year all from GMT land

Cosmoline
December 31, 2003, 09:09 PM
Not the investigation, but the fact that my firearms would automatically make me as guilty as any murderer over there. Even though I have never injured anyone with them. While I grew up on BBC TV and love much about the UK, I detest the laws and the apathy of the current generation of sheeple.

But like I said I feel the same way about US states such as New Jersey and cities such as Chicago, NYC and DC. The difference is here we are still able to move to a free state such as Alaska. In the UK it's all slave state.

P95Carry
December 31, 2003, 09:23 PM
What probably gives me most cause for astonishment - concern .......... is that he was not patted down and disarmed. Or do they assume in ''gun-free'' UK this is not necessary. This could have saved the cop's life.

Never assume.

Fed168
January 1, 2004, 03:44 AM
Unarmed police- not good.

Balog
January 1, 2004, 04:35 AM
agricola, let me quote a couple things us wild cowboys over here in America might object to. A quantity of illegal home-made 9mm ammunition, a bullet re-loader and componentswho does not possess a firearms certificate

I also got a kick out of this line Coleman could be armed with a substantial amount of ammunition.Look out, he's got ammo!!!

Balog
January 1, 2004, 04:47 AM
Speaking of things that amuse me....

Imagine a sniveling Euro-trash subject who is on the national Olympic shooting team for his particular socialist hell-hole. He turns to the internet for info on shooting, and comes here. He strikes up a friendship with one of our members in Alaska, and when business forces him to cross the pond they arrange a meeting. Upon arrival the yank, anxious to impress his friend, shows off his setup. Imagine the shock, the horror! Private citizens with machine guns! No licenses for any of the dozens of rifles, shotguns, and handguns! Kegs of powder! Thousands of bullets, primers, and brass! AND YOU CAN CARRY CONCEALED WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!!! I bet it'd blow his/her pathetic little mind.









Note: this post should not be taken as a specific comment on any forum member. It's merely a hypothetical situation I find amusing. No offense intended to any.

agricola
January 1, 2004, 05:10 AM
http://www.news-press.com/news/local_state/040101bieber.html

Iain
January 1, 2004, 08:39 AM
Ag, there had to be some reason why he had turned up here under a different name and was prepared to kill three officers over a stolen car. Terrible case. Good that it wasn't another Prudom though.

The Scandinavian
January 1, 2004, 01:54 PM
Speaking of things that amuse me....

Imagine a sniveling Euro-trash subject who is on the national Olympic shooting team for his particular socialist hell-hole. He turns to the internet for info on shooting, and comes here. He strikes up a friendship with one of our members in Alaska, and when business forces him to cross the pond they arrange a meeting. Upon arrival the yank, anxious to impress his friend, shows off his setup. Imagine the shock, the horror! Private citizens with machine guns! No licenses for any of the dozens of rifles, shotguns, and handguns! Kegs of powder! Thousands of bullets, primers, and brass! AND YOU CAN CARRY CONCEALED WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!!! I bet it'd blow his/her pathetic little mind.



Note: this post should not be taken as a specific comment on any forum member. It's merely a hypothetical situation I find amusing. No offense intended to any.


Balog, one great way to be absolutely sure of not causing offence to anyone is to refrain from posting this kind of ignorant nonsense!

Happy New Year

T.S.

Don Gwinn
January 1, 2004, 02:21 PM
Yes, Ag, that's a shame. If you sent him over here, we'd give him a fair trial. If he was convicted, rather than put him in jail for having a reloading press and some primers and brass, we'd execute him for murdering a police officer.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think it's too bad you can't ship him back. Failing that, it's too bad you can't at least do the right thing.

Balog
January 1, 2004, 04:49 PM
The Scandinavian: first off, welcome to the High Road.
I realize that post was pretty sarcastic, but I stand by my assessment. 99% of the Europeans I've met would probably react in the way I've described. Even among Euros who post on gun boards I've yet to meet a truly zealous defender of liberty. That is somewhat disheartening. My opinion could also apply to a lot of Americans.

The Scandinavian
January 2, 2004, 01:05 PM
Hi again

Yeah that sounds a bit more balanced :)

Don't forget that some of your freedoms are pretty entertaining to those of us on this side of the pond though!

Your ten round magazine limits for example are always good for a laugh. Criminals over here aren't disciplined enough to follow laws like this. For example, in scandinavia, a rule like this would only be obeyed by the good guys, and would therefore only serve as an irritation to the law-abiding :p (I'm sure that every country has it's share of comedy legislation though - after all politics attracts the same personality types everywhere ;) )

From here (admittedly a long way away) it looks like the poulation there is ready to accept as 'freedom' whatever those in power spin it to mean. And it also looks as though that definition is slipping from month to month.

Not so many years ago people in Europe used to look up to America, but sorry to say that that really isn't really the case now.

I guess there are lots of ways of looking at liberty...

HankB
January 2, 2004, 01:54 PM
"The simple production of a firearm would have been sufficient to make those officers withdraw." Hmmm . . . if that's truly the reaction of Brit coppers to the mere sight of a firearm, then there may be a useful lesson in this one sentence . . . at least, for those who may be confronted by Brit constabulary. :evil:

Note that producing a firearm when accosted by a police officer in the USA is likely to provoke a rather different response. :uhoh:

romulus
January 2, 2004, 02:06 PM
Not so many years ago, as an Italian citizen living in Italy - I left in 1988 - I used to look at Europeans as being better prepared educationally, culturally, intellectually than Americans. In the last twenty years the power of reasoning based in knowledge of Europeans has grossly diminished, being replaced by silly ideologizing. A prime example is the ideologically driven argumentation meant to show the civil superiority of European laws with regards to firearms. Not all Europe is England or Sweden, however, and there are some pockets of sanity like Norway and to some extent, Italy.

The sense I now get - and Scandinavian's posts confirm my feelings - is that huge tracts of the citizenry in Europe have completely surrendered their natural obligation of defending life and limb, along with the concurrent obligation to acquire the means to do so, to the omnipotent state.

Justice in England now is such that the cop-killer will get no harsher sentence than farmer Martin, the real criminal in the case being the gun and the reloading equipment, whose standing as causa primis of any murder is now ensconced in both British law and public consciousness.

Pathetic, really, as are the ridicule and sarcasm coming from Europeans.

agricola
January 2, 2004, 02:11 PM
romulus,

you are clearly wrong, as will be shown at this mans trial.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
January 2, 2004, 02:19 PM
The Scandinavian wrote:

Don't forget that some of your freedoms are pretty entertaining to those of us on this side of the pond though!

Your ten round magazine limits for example are always good for a laugh...


Perhaps there is a language barrier here that you are having difficulty overcoming. Are you saying the magazine capacity limitation enacted in '94 represents one of our "freedoms?"

If you were to perform a search on this message board, or its' predecessor: The Firing Line, I'm sure you would find the argument that you have presented; that gun-control laws only serve to affect the law abiding, repeated a minimum of approximately one quarter of a million times.

Reagrding laughable infringements on personal freedom, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, what percentage of your income did you send to your Scandanavian government in the form of taxes last year? Assuming that you work.

romulus
January 2, 2004, 02:36 PM
romulus,

you are clearly wrong, as will be shown at this mans trial.

Martin is in jail for life, isn't he? With no death penalty, how can this guy get more than Martin?

cordex
January 2, 2004, 02:38 PM
Heart goes out to the slain officer's family.
A pity we cannot send this scum back to you air-freight and on two different planes.
Ag, I'll cover shipping back here if you pack him in multiple boxes, none greater than 20 pounds.

That said, the immoral action was the murder of one person and attempted murder of two other people - not owning a reloading press. I'd not blink twice if the proper person were convicted and executed for murder and attempted murder, but I don't see any valid, moral reason to jail this fellow because he had reloading equipment. Execute the murderer and be done with it. The fact that he had a press is meaningless to me.

The Scandinavian
January 2, 2004, 03:02 PM
Perhaps there is a language barrier here that you are having difficulty overcoming. Are you saying the magazine capacity limitation enacted in '94 represents one of our "freedoms?"

Hi

I strongly suspect that my English is much better than your Finnish. But if you feel that my language skills are in need of refinement I would be glad of any constructive input.

No, I wasn't referring to the capacity limit as a freedom, rather an example one of the many (albeit in this case trivial) ways in which freedom is compromised. Other more recognisably conventional freedoms, freedom of speech, freedom to elect political representitives of our free choice, etc etc, are things that we have in common; up to the point which they are permitted by our respective regimes. For example, it appears that your freedom of speech is restricted somewhat - there have been threads here and elsewhere that have said that people who disagree with Bush and hold placards to that effect are kept in separate "free speech" areas. Restrictions such as that would cause an uproar if they were tried here I'm sure.



If you were to perform a search on this message board, or its' predecessor: The Firing Line, I'm sure you would find the argument that you have presented; that gun-control laws only serve to affect the law abiding, repeated a minimum of approximately one quarter of a million times.



Yeah I know, I'm preaching to the choir :p


Reagrding laughable infringements on personal freedom, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, what percentage of your income did you send to your Scandanavian government in the form of taxes last year? Assuming that you work.


Off the top of my head, about 24% in total if I remember correctly. I can't complain though because the level and quality of public services are pretty high - at some level it does represent some sort of value, it's not like we get nothing for that.

One point I'd like to make - I've travelled very widely and met people from pretty much all over the world. One thing that really strikes me is how similar people are the world over. Ok we might eat reindeer, they might wear funny clothes etc etc but when you talk to people as individauals the same things concern us all: family, education, work - things at that level form a commonality that could be a greater force in uniting people from different cultures.

I realise though that that isn't a particularly popular perspective at the moment when the emphasis seems to be on differences, and working up hate...

agricola
January 2, 2004, 03:50 PM
romulus,

no, martin is out following a few years for manslaughter (reduced from murder on appeal (due to diminished responsibility)).

that said, i assumed you knew that. In which case, in light of that new information I agree with you - Martin's murder of Fred Barras should receive the same sentence (life) as Bieber/Coleman's murder (albeit Beiber / Coleman gets concurrent life sentences for attempted murder x2, and at the conclusion of those sentences is repatriated to the US whereupon he serves his life sentence (or death).

romulus
January 2, 2004, 07:26 PM
Martin's murder of Fred Barras should receive the same sentence (life) as Bieber/Coleman's murder (albeit Beiber / Coleman gets concurrent life sentences for attempted murder x2, and at the conclusion of those sentences is repatriated to the US whereupon he serves his life sentence (or death).
There you have it...the notion of the "criminality" of the gun actually seems more ensconced in the public than in the law as I previously postulated (if Ag is typical among the Brits.) Meaning a court downgrades the sentence to manslaughter, but Ag still refers to it as murder.

Your equating the two crimes would be repugnant if it weren't comical...actually it still is repugnant...

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
January 2, 2004, 08:44 PM
The Scandinavian wrote:

I strongly suspect that my English is much better than your Finnish.

True, I barely speak English (but talk passable American). :)

For example, it appears that your freedom of speech is restricted somewhat - there have been threads here and elsewhere that have said that people who disagree with Bush and hold placards to that effect are kept in separate "free speech" areas. Restrictions such as that would cause an uproar if they were tried here I'm sure.

True again. You've picked up on the very bitter reaction of many here to the Campaign Reform Act's flagrent infringement of our rights under the first Amendment. The restrictions on demonstrators coming close to the President are reasonable in my opinion, given 9-11 and the violence associated with leftist demonstrations at events like the World Trade Summit and G-7 meetings.

Off the top of my head, about 24% in total if I remember correctly. I can't complain though because the level and quality of public services are pretty high - at some level it does represent some sort of value, it's not like we get nothing for that.

Thanks for answering that question. I am suprised to learn it's so low. I have always read that the tax rate in the Scandanavian countries was around 75-80% of income.

One point I'd like to make - I've travelled very widely and met people from pretty much all over the world. One thing that really strikes me is how similar people are the world over.

I agree with you on this as well.

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