Some say a .380 isn;t enough


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vynx
January 26, 2011, 06:14 PM
Some people (lots actually) say a .380 isn'y a large enough caliber.

I am attaching a link to the ElPasoTimes.com that tells how a retired mexican police officer killed 3 out of 4 home invasion guys with his .380.

And they had vests and an AK.

Here's the link:

http://www.elpasotimes.com/juarez/ci_17185314?source=pkg

He must have kept his cool and went for head shots.

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SmokeySam81
January 26, 2011, 06:22 PM
I don't feel that a .380 is ideal, not by a long shot, but it is sufficient if it is what you have. It also goes to show, that a bullet put in the right spot will usually beat the bigger one put in the wrong spot, and the .22 you carried on your belt or in your bra is better than the .500 S&W you left at home.

xXxplosive
January 26, 2011, 06:36 PM
The Colt .380 was enough for John Dillenger.........pocket carry.

bikemutt
January 26, 2011, 06:37 PM
Had to be well placed shots like you said, not sure if any civilian caliber will penetrate vests.

What I've read about .380 is more things have to be in your favor for it to work as intended. Heavy clothing etc. could subtract enough to make the rounds less effective, or ineffective. Or in more quaint terms, just piss the subject off.

I keep one in my car just in case, loaded with 90 gr Corbon JHPs.

SmokeySam81
January 26, 2011, 06:41 PM
Most vests, such as our own military's, are designed to stop shrapnel, not bullets. They will stop up to a 9mm fmj, but anything beyond that is not a guarantee. To effectively stop a bullet you have to wear the plates, and they always have gaps.

heeler
January 26, 2011, 06:43 PM
There are plenty of storys about people using a .380 to successfully repel an attacker or intruder.
Although the the .380 is no .45acp neither is the 9mm,.38 Special,.357 Magnum,.44 Special,....You see where these types of bidding caliber wars go.

SmokeySam81
January 26, 2011, 06:46 PM
My wife's Walther PPK/S is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot. Maybe we got lucky in picking, but it shoots good. I would pick that any day over something that I couldn't trust past twenty feet, no matter how big. I personally carry a .40 though.

bikemutt
January 26, 2011, 07:08 PM
Here's to the Walther PPK/S. Mine's a Sig P230 SL, very accurate for me, and more reliable than not, although not perfect.

rspeters
January 26, 2011, 07:13 PM
I Love my sig 238. Like has been mentioned above, a small pistol on you is better than a large pistol left at home.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

btg3
January 26, 2011, 07:24 PM
Perhaps when the victim saw the gunmen outside, he was able to recognize that they had vests. Thus, he knew where his shots would need to be.

We don't know the capacity of his gun or total rounds fired, but 3 kills says plenty about the shooter's ability to place shots -- while under extreme stress. Former police training may have been a factor.

He likely had the element of surprise on his side, as well.

DoomGoober
January 26, 2011, 07:47 PM
I bet the guy would have been packing something larger had it been legal:
"Federal laws regarding firearms and explosives in Mexico restrict weapons of more than .380 caliber to military use."

I also think he used the element of surprise, possibly head shots, at close range:
"Sandoval was waiting near the entrance to open fire on the men, Martínez said. After he shot and killed three of the men, he called Mexico's emergency number to report what happened."

If I was right next to the door as my assailants walked in, I'd want a pistol instead of a rifle too.

ball3006
January 26, 2011, 08:08 PM
My feelings is any hole in a bad guy is better than nothing. Besides, you could never be charged with trying to kill the guy instead of stopping him......chris3

Greg528iT
January 26, 2011, 08:11 PM
Wild Bill Hickock killed plenty of men with a 32 caliber

19&41
January 26, 2011, 08:52 PM
Wish the papers would say what pistol he was using. The ammo would be far too much to ask.

76shuvlinoff
January 26, 2011, 08:58 PM
Well from my own line up the fullsize 1911 and even the XD40sc don't always fit the moment. At those times my little wimpy LCP fills the bill. I kinda bet it would smart to get shot with it too.

357SIG
January 26, 2011, 09:10 PM
.380 is perfectly suitable for defense. The issue comes with firing through barriers and firing at oblique angles to the targeted organ in the body. That's really it. For the vast majority of situations, it will reach any organ in the body as well as any other defense round commonly used. Even with the other "big boys" of SD above the .380, you need shot placement, or you get little to nothing in the way of fight stopping.

I just went through this (shot placement being king) over on TFL in the Marshal/Sanow thread in greater detail, if anyone is curious as to why I say that. I honestly can't bring myself to reiterate it here again so soon.

btg3
January 26, 2011, 09:11 PM
... the fullsize 1911 and even the XD40sc don't always fit the moment. At those times my little wimpy LCP fills the bill

Gotta ask... do you carry all 3, or do you anticipate "the moment" ahead of time?

CZguy
January 26, 2011, 09:53 PM
.380 is perfectly suitable for defense. The issue comes with firing through barriers and firing at oblique angles to the targeted organ in the body. That's really it. For the vast majority of situations, it will reach any organ in the body as well as any other defense round commonly used. Even with the other "big boys" of SD above the .380, you need shot placement, or you get little to nothing in the way of fight stopping.


You are correct about the .380. Many people confuse defensive shooting with offensive. In which case most pistol bullets are lacking.

Also shot placement is the most important aspect. Now I know that my range is different than yours, but when I'm there I can't help but notice that a whole lot of people aren't very good shots.

Sometimes I almost think that when people talk about their shooting skills on the internet, they might stretch their abilities a little bit.

Sort of like the big fish I caught last summer. :D

PabloJ
January 26, 2011, 10:27 PM
Some people (lots actually) say a .380 isn'y a large enough caliber.

I am attaching a link to the ElPasoTimes.com that tells how a retired mexican police officer killed 3 out of 4 home invasion guys with his .380.

And they had vests and an AK.

Here's the link:

http://www.elpasotimes.com/juarez/ci_17185314?source=pkg

He must have kept his cool and went for head shots.
I would not be very hard to establish that 9 Browning is more effective then calibers like .357Magnum or .45ACP.

easyg
January 26, 2011, 11:21 PM
If you want to risk your life to a .380 then that's your business.

walking arsenal
January 26, 2011, 11:55 PM
Beats a sharp stick.

David E
January 27, 2011, 12:27 AM
Any gun with you beats any gun not.

I'm sure that guy had a whole lot of things going his way. But it's like saying, "You don't need those high dollar tires that have tread. Fred here just went cross-country on bald snow tires and didn't have any problems."

Just because it's been done before doesn't always mean it's a good idea.

Steve C
January 27, 2011, 01:46 AM
The .380 ACP was considered by most of the big bore .45 acp "experts" in the 70's like Cooper to be the minimum for self defense. Caliber wise it makes as big a hole as a .38 spl, or 9mm or any of the .38 calibers including the .357 mag. What it lacks is bullet weight. Since it sends a 98gr pill out the muzzle of a 3" barrel at around 1,000 fps so its not exactly wanting in the velocity department and with JHP ammo its performance is well improved.

Some may argue with the lower penetration it gets from JHP ammo, usually around 9 to 10 inches in ballistic gel is lacking enough penetration based on the FBI standards of 12". As others have pointed out though, civilians don't often have to shoot through barriers like LEO's which is why the .380 isn't a typical police cartridge in the US. As a defensive caliber, its quite adequate and the small pistols that are chambered for it makes them ideal for CCW.

oerllikon
January 27, 2011, 03:35 AM
Thats pretty impressive. The smallest round I would trust my life with would be a .380, not a 25 though. If I had a little range I would with a 22 LR. This whole subject is really subjective.

Nobody wondered who this guy pissed off?

sxcamaro05
January 27, 2011, 05:47 AM
I remember back in the 80's my father showed me an article about a string or robberies commited with .22 lr pistols. The criminals actually killed 2 people and shot a half dozen more over a few heists. Bottom line any caliber has the potential to do damage if it hits a target. Larger bullet just means more damage will be done.

sansone
January 27, 2011, 05:53 AM
ahh.. the 380 brawl is renewed.. I carry one just because it sits in my pocket like a wallet

Fastcast
January 27, 2011, 07:32 AM
If you want to risk your life to a .380 then that's your business.

In my buisness it's my ability to perform, quick wit, my pistol of choice and then the caliber it fires.

I sometimes carry .380 and feel it's certainly a capable caliber (at SD distances) for capable men and women.

A larger caliber isn't going to miraculously save your bacon if you don't perform well under the circumstances at hand.

easyg
January 27, 2011, 10:11 AM
A larger caliber isn't going to miraculously save your bacon if you don't perform well under the circumstances at hand.
True.
But with all things being equal, a 9mm para (or greater) will be much more effective at stopping an aggressive human.

Regardless of your personal skill and the circumstances of any given self-defense scenario, the .380 just isn't that great of a self defense caliber.

ET
January 27, 2011, 11:01 AM
Gotta ask... do you carry all 3, or do you anticipate "the moment" ahead of time?



That's hillarious.

mgmorden
January 27, 2011, 11:58 AM
If you want to risk your life to a .380 then that's your business.

If you want to risk your life to a .45ACP then that's your business.

See what I did there?

There is always bigger and better. I'm sure there is some guy out there toting around a .454 Casull thinking that anyone carrying anything less is nuts.

The reality is that on the VERY slim chance that you have the need to pull your gun defensively, combined with the chance that you actually need to fire it, combined with the chance that your shot connects in a good place - the chance that a .380 wouldn't work where something else would is about as remote as you can possibly get.

speaksoftly
January 27, 2011, 12:09 PM
The Colt .380 was enough for John Dillenger.........pocket carry.

Every caliber snob should read this sentence..and then reread it...and then reread it.

shootingthebreeze
January 27, 2011, 12:44 PM
With the advent of new smaller firearms for CPL .380 ammunition makers too have made improvements based on that demand.
Defensive engagement will be typically 10 feet or less. A .380 is quite adequate today with modern, improved ammunition.
JHP, 90 Grain Cor Bon is an example.

easyg
January 27, 2011, 01:04 PM
The Colt .380 was enough for John Dillenger.........pocket carry.

Every caliber snob should read this sentence..and then reread it...and then reread it.

Dillinger was known to use a Thompson machine gun too!

19&41
January 27, 2011, 01:18 PM
Don't forget the pistol he broke out of Crown Point Jail with! (He whittled it out himself.)

xXxplosive
January 27, 2011, 01:46 PM
On the night of July 22, 1934, John Dillinger was killed outside the
Biograph Theater in Chicago, Ill. Present with FBI Agents were
several members of the East Chicago, Indiana Police Department.
When the smoke cleared and Dillinger lay dying on the pavement,
he had a .380 Colt automatic in his hand which had the serial
number removed. According to testimony and statements at the
time, a second loaded clip was found in his pocket that would have fit the gun in question. Within
days, media reports revealed that Dillinger’s actual gun went on display with his straw hat, cigar,
and glasses outside Director Hoover’s office in 1934. (Dillinger gun photo: Chicago media
7/23/34)


Nevertheless..............that was his pocket carry........and it worked for him.

JR47
January 27, 2011, 01:48 PM
But with all things being equal, a 9mm para (or greater) will be much more effective at stopping an aggressive human.

That is also true of using a .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or .45 ACP in lieu of the weak kneed 9x19 cartridge.

There will always be a better caliber, bullet, or action for a specific case. The simple fact, though, is that the vast majority of self-defense guns in the past century were never used, as nothing happened.

Humans aren't particularly hard to injure severely, or kill, with a firearm. Even a .22 long rifle will kill. Most criminals try hard to avoid being shot, stabbed, or otherwise injured. Treatment for such wounds require the medical attendant to contact the police. Being killed by them similarly brings the police into play.

The "bullet sponge" of legend still dies. Maybe not quickly enough, but is dead nonetheless.

Pick the gun that you can handle, the caliber that you can use effectively, and the bullet that's most reliable, and accurate in that gun.

Everything else is opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

Fastcast
January 27, 2011, 02:04 PM
Goldenloki's gel test of modern HP .380 from a 2.7" barrel P3AT shows average penetration from 11" to 13.5" and expansion from .40 to .65

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

All logic and history shows at self defense distances (approx. 7yrd or less) this caliber, if you do your part, will send a BG to his maker. Not tomorrow but in short order.

Apparently some here have missed the OP's article he linked to.....3 of 4 perps DEAD from a .380

David E
January 27, 2011, 02:11 PM
Nevertheless..............that was his pocket carry........and it worked for him.

Did it? Did he ever shoot or kill anyone with it?

Dillinger simply chose a gun of the era.

Given all the subcompact 9mm's, 40's and .45's available now, would Dillinger still choose a large 7+1 all steel .380 today and load it with fmj? Not likely.

David E
January 27, 2011, 02:15 PM
All logic and history shows at self defense distances (approx. 7yrd or less) this caliber, if you do your part, will send a BG to his maker. Not tomorrow but in short order.

I don't care if he dies today, tomorrow or next year... I do care about stopping him NOW....before he completes the act that caused me to shoot him in the first place.

If I carried a .380 as a primary, I'd practice rapid head/face/neck shots to assist that caliber in meeting my stated goal.

Kleanbore
January 27, 2011, 02:22 PM
Posted by mgmorden:The reality is that on the VERY slim chance that you have the need to pull your gun defensively, combined with the chance that you actually need to fire it, combined with the chance that your shot connects in a good place - the chance that a .380 wouldn't work where something else would is about as remote as you can possibly get.Let's not confuse absolute probability with conditional probability. It is only after you do have to fire your gun that it matters what you are using and how.

What matters then? Penetration and shot placement.

Regarding penetration, it is important that bullets entering from any angle and entering anywhere on the body get through and damage to parts of the body that will immediately slow an attacker.

Regarding shot placement, that has to do with where the bullets do hit the attacker. It's not a matter of accuracy per se, as in bullseye shooting. One will likely have to draw and fire in under two seconds at a moving target or two and hit something vital. That generally means two or more very rapid repeat shots fired at center mass--on each attacker, and if one does have to shoot, statistics indicate that the chance of being attacked by more than one person is in the same ballpark as the chance of facing a single attacker.

A gun that cannot be controlled in very rapid fire will put the shooter at what might prove to be a fatal disadvantage.

Will the .380 do the trick? Maybe. Personally, I would feel better served with 9MM. The guns in .380 are not that much more inconvenient to carry, and most of them are easier to shoot proficiently in the manner described above than pocket pistols.

I have friends who do carry .380 pocket pistols, and others who are officers who do not trust them for backup. I tend to think that with today's premium ammunition, the biggest issue is whether one can handle the pistol proficiently in rapid fire.

Fastcast
January 27, 2011, 02:25 PM
David if you don't put a .45 in a vital area, who says they're gonna stop?....You? :what:

Kleanbore
January 27, 2011, 02:43 PM
Posted by Fastcast: All logic and history shows at self defense distances (approx. 7yrd or less) this caliber, if you do your part, will send a BG to his maker. Not tomorrow but in short order.Actually, statistics indicate that the overwhelming majority of persons shot by handguns survive.

The objective in a self defense shooting is not to "send a BG to his maker" but to prevent him from harming you.

Yes, you do have to "do your part". Can you do it with a pocket pistol? I'll choose something easier to shoot rapidly and easier with which to hit--rapidly.

For me, that involves having a grip that is not too small, fairly decent sights, a good trigger pull, and recoil that is not too severe. There are some .380 pistols that would be OK, but the ones I have seen that are are only marginally smaller than pistols in 9MM Parabellum, which, incidentally, are quite a bit more economical to shoot to maintain proficiency.

Fastcast
January 27, 2011, 03:10 PM
The objective in a self defense shooting is not to "send a BG to his maker" but to prevent him from harming you.

No Kidding. :rolleyes: The point was if it kills you, you're stopped.



Yes, you do have to "do your part". Can you do it with a pocket pistol? I'll choose something easier to shoot rapidly and easier with which to hit--rapidly.

For me, that involves having a grip that is not too small, fairly decent sights, a good trigger pull, and recoil that is not too severe. There are some .380 pistols that would be OK, but the ones I have seen that are are only marginally smaller than pistols in 9MM Parabellum, which, incidentally, are quite a bit more economical to shoot to maintain proficiency.

Why now are .380's only pocket pistols that are hard to shoot? Which I do agree with that statement. I have an LCP actually and don't like it for the reasons you stated.

I also have a .380 Beretta 84....That I had before all the tiny 9x19s.....It's exceptional at everything you said a good SD pistol needs to be and with 14 rounds is a formidable weapon even if it's only a .380. I'm not buying a mini 9x19 because it's the new thing to do, when the Beretta has proven itself to me, to be 100% reliable and accurate as hell.

If it makes you or David or EasyG feel invincible with your larger caliber good for you. I feel armed quite well for a SD situation with a .380 with a larger frame like the Beretta, a 9mm, a .40 or .45......I believe in my ability more than handgun calibers.

xXxplosive
January 27, 2011, 03:32 PM
"I believe in my ability more than handgun calibers"...... Fastcast.


I Like That.............

And to answer David E's question, Johnny had access to quite an arsenal of weapons (See Dillinger Gun Pics)....He obviously chose the Colt for pocket carry for convenience and maybe just maybe he liked it...

Don't know about it's use.........

easyg
January 27, 2011, 03:48 PM
Pick the gun that you can handle, the caliber that you can use effectively, and the bullet that's most reliable, and accurate in that gun.
I agree with this notion.
And I suppose if a .380 is all you can shoot effectively then it's the gun for you, despite the shortcomings of that caliber.

Just practice aiming at the eye sockets.

Fastcast
January 27, 2011, 04:17 PM
I agree with this notion.
And I suppose if a .380 is all you can shoot effectively then it's the gun for you, despite the shortcomings of that caliber.

Just practice aiming at the eye sockets.

and despite the possible shortcomings of the big caliber, tiny gun faithful......It would help if you hit COM instead of arms, shoulders and legs. :o

CZguy
January 27, 2011, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The Colt .380 was enough for John Dillenger.........pocket carry.

Every caliber snob should read this sentence..and then reread it...and then reread it.

Dillinger was known to use a Thompson machine gun too!

Yep, but they are on the bulky side for CCW. :D

speaksoftly
January 27, 2011, 05:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The Colt .380 was enough for John Dillenger.........pocket carry.
Every caliber snob should read this sentence..and then reread it...and then reread it.
Dillinger was known to use a Thompson machine gun too!

Don't think those came chambered for .380. Haha

Hanshi
January 27, 2011, 06:07 PM
I'm okay with a .380 and I like my PPK. For me it's a last ditch system, anyway. As a cop I carried .357 and .45acp. Sometimes I'll have my Kimber .45 Ultra Carry with me but either is fine.

Kleanbore
January 27, 2011, 06:30 PM
Posted by Fastcast: The point was if it kills you, you're stopped. Not necessarily. First, a handgun may not kill an aggressor at all, and it probably won't, and most importantly, doesn't need to, and that was my point; Second, one can fatally wound an attacker and still be shot or stabbed before he ceases to function.

That has nothing to do with the .380 argument, but it's something that those who like to point out that the .22LR has resulted in death for many might want to consider before choosing one for carry.

Why now are .380's only pocket pistols that are hard to shoot? Which I do agree with that statement. I have an LCP actually and don't like it for the reasons you stated.Of course they are not the only ones. It's the size of the grip, the sights, and the weight that makes the difference, not the fact that it is a .380. Most people I have seen at the range with the LCP or similar guns do poorly with them and are disappointed. I had enough of the LCP in the store--never saw fit to try to shoot it after trying the grip, the sights, and the trigger.

I also have a .380 Beretta 84....That I had before all the tiny 9x19s.....It's exceptional at everything you said a good SD pistol needs to be and with 14 rounds is a formidable weapon even if it's only a .380.The Beretta 84 is one of the nicest .380 pistols on the market. One disadvantage for me is the DA/SA pull. Yes, I know the Army prefers that, but accounts of difficulties encountered by the Illinois State Patrol in their early use of early DA/SA S&W pistols caused me to avoid that choice when I started to carry, even after many years of shooting a Smith Model 39. Most instructors will tell you that a uniform pull from one shot to the next is better.

If the Model 84 meets one's needs, fine, but I do not find the M&P 9c or other similar guns to be significantly more inconvenient to carry; 9MM ammunition has been a lot easier to find; and the Parabellum round is undoubtedly more effective.

I'm not buying a mini 9x19 because it's the new thing to do, when the Beretta has proven itself to me, to be 100% reliable and accurate as hell.The mini 9X19 does not appeal to me at all.

Last spring, I took a high performance defensive pistol course that involved developing the basic skills need for common self defense scenarios--one or more rushing threats within a seven yard range. I consumed about 500 rounds, and some others fired more than 900, in nine hours. They recommended against bringing small pistols, and said that my four inch 1911 type .45 with an Officers' grip frame would put me at a disadvantage.

It did. Guys and gals with service sized 9MM pistols did a lot better. Not that I decided to carry one after that.

One thing I learned very quickly was that miniaturization, if I might call it that, might be neat and it might be cute, but the performance of the tool can be really compromised.

xXxplosive
January 27, 2011, 07:45 PM
So........you're saying your 1911 Officers' Model put you at a disadvantage ?

There's only a 3/4" difference between my Gov't Model and my Combat Commander.....what would that disadvantge be, please ?

FruitCake
January 27, 2011, 08:06 PM
I can shoot my P32 a lot better than my P3AT, almost like its a natural extension of my hand. Of course its not what I prefer to carry but its so comfortable and well hidden in my pocket. I've tried a couple of small 380,s and didn't like them whatsoever.Thinking about maybe getting a PF9 again.

CZguy
January 27, 2011, 09:26 PM
I like the pocket .380s but they are kind of like a .410 for skeet. Not for beginners. They are just plain hard to shoot well. It can be done, but takes quit a bit of practice.

IMTHDUKE
January 27, 2011, 09:43 PM
On the night of July 22, 1934, John Dillinger was killed outside the
Biograph Theater in Chicago, Ill. Present with FBI Agents were
several members of the East Chicago, Indiana Police Department.
When the smoke cleared and Dillinger lay dying on the pavement,
he had a .380 Colt automatic in his hand which had the serial
number removed. According to testimony and statements at the
time, a second loaded clip was found in his pocket that would have fit the gun in question. Within
days, media reports revealed that Dillinger’s actual gun went on display with his straw hat, cigar,
and glasses outside Director Hoover’s office in 1934. (Dillinger gun photo: Chicago media
7/23/34)


Nevertheless..............that was his pocket carry........and it worked for him.

Didn't work on July 22, 1934:)

mopar92
January 27, 2011, 10:39 PM
I trust my life with my .380. It's compact, and it's more powerful than the old school guys think. Tons of domestic violence ends from a cheapo ball fmj .380 round....

MedWheeler
January 27, 2011, 10:50 PM
It's enough until it isn't. In most cases, it will stay "enough" (the BG flees, either before or after being shot, surrenders, or otherwise ceases to be a threat after being shot.) In the remaining cases, it isn't enough.

David E
January 27, 2011, 11:54 PM
David if you don't put a .45 in a vital area, who says they're gonna stop?....

fastcast, You always do this; you challenge me on something I did NOT say. :rolleyes:

Placement rules, but with the lesser calibers, placement becomes much more critical. And, even in the the fast moving, low-light dynamics of a gunfight, it always seems that the champions of the sub-calibers just "know" that they will be able to get their bullets to find their marks with surgical precision, from the hip, weak-handed, while running.

Me, I'm not that good, so I'll stick with a .45 loaded with JHP's and go for the much easier (yet still extremely difficult) center mass hit.

mopar92
January 28, 2011, 08:51 AM
I think what some people fail to remember is that you are not going to have a 40 yard shootout with a guy who has a knife and wants your wallet... The average self defense gunshot happens less than 10 yards I think the FBI stated last year... A guy with a coat and shirt on are not stopping a .380. Then there is the ." what if the guy is wearing a bullet proof vest... Gosh, I guess I need to carry a .50 Bmg now....

ET
January 28, 2011, 09:07 AM
I trust my life with my .380. It's compact, and it's more powerful than the old school guys think.

I carry a TCP in my pocket. I trust my life to my Glock 27 on my side. If something happens to that Glock then I pull out my TCP as a last resort. If that is trusting my life to the TCP, then so be it. I just think that I want to trust my life to the Glock first, then if all else fails, to the TCP. I'd rather have the 40s&w aimed at the BG, then a puny TCP.

xXxplosive
January 28, 2011, 09:12 AM
IMTHDUKE.......

Believe he was shot from behind.

Fastcast
January 28, 2011, 09:26 AM
David, my apologies if you felt "challenged".....I considered it a question, not really a challenge. Forums are about questions and answers after all.

With that said, I believe your logic seems sound to me and if it works for you and you're comfortable and confident with it, that's what really matters.

BTW....I also love the .45 and feel it certainly gives one a shock/trauma advantage with hits that wouldn't be considered vital but that still doesn't guarantee incapacitation or a perp that won't continue to fight back.

Pain is subjective and I believe if one encounters that determined of an attacker, only vital hits are gonna slow them down. Surely we can agree the smaller calibers certainly are capable of vitally wounding an attacker with COM hits. So I still say shot placement is power, if one expects guaranteed "stopping" power.

I imagine you've heard this before but Medal of Honor recipient Sergeant York's son said in an interview with American Rifleman that his father brought back a .32 caliber CZ from Europe and that was the pistol he used back home for self defense......Apparently the famous Sgt. felt even the minuscule .32 cal was a viable "defensive" caliber.

PabloJ
January 28, 2011, 09:36 AM
There is good number of folks out there that would be better served with 9 Browning of substantial construction like the PPK, SIG 230,.....It would be more effective then something like.... .357Mag, .40S&W,....., .45ACP,......

shootingthebreeze
January 28, 2011, 09:51 AM
http://stevespages.com/page8f380acp.html

There are many charts relating to .389 velocity here is one.

Again, defensive engagement will be 10 feet or less-and with modern .380 ammunition, .380 will do the job.
Obviously placement is important.

shootingthebreeze
January 28, 2011, 10:08 AM
http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

Here is another chart.
Since CPL have risen, .380 pistols have also become quite popular because they are easily concealed. Ammunition research has also met the demand for better more effective .380 rounds.
Remember that a large hollow point will create a large wound channel which is what you want, especially with a round which will not fragment but remain intact like Hornady for example. A lot of advances in this type of bullet has created more effective bullets in smaller caliber like the .380 and with a defensive engagement of less than 10 feet I would say quite adequate.
Yes, I like my .40 Taurus Millenium Pro but a Ruger .380 LCP will become invisible especially during the warm months. I'm thinking seriously about getting the .380 Ruger LCP.
Of course I love my Springfield .45 Champion-but it's a .45-a 1911 style, and, a meaty firearm. The .45 was my side arm while I was in the US Army. I loved it and got real good with it.
I never thought I would do a little compromising but with what I read, the .380 is an adequate self defense round as long as you don't do long range "artillery" with it.


"Note I think the Federal Hydro Shock listed as 100 was a mistake- probably should be 1000 FPS.

AOK
January 28, 2011, 11:13 AM
"Placement rules, but with the lesser calibers, placement becomes much more critical. And, even in the the fast moving, low-light dynamics of a gunfight, it always seems that the champions of the sub-calibers just "know" that they will be able to get their bullets to find their marks with surgical precision, from the hip, weak-handed, while running.

Me, I'm not that good, so I'll stick with a .45 loaded with JHP's and go for the much easier (yet still extremely difficult) center mass hit."

-------

I agree 100% with this statement. Anybody ever hear of the Dunning-Kruger Effect?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Skinsanity
January 28, 2011, 11:45 AM
True, Some say the .380 "isn't enough", some say its INadequate, some will say its less-than-adequate, and some will tell you it will do the job. Things change over the years with advances in ammunition and the firearms that shoot them. Today we see .380 as small as the .25s of yesteryear, and 9mms as small as earlier .380s. As with all things, change brings about change. One thing however remains the same..Will it be as good as a larger caliber in ALL situations..no...Is it better than it USED TO BE, in most situations..yes. And with that increase in utility, so has it become increasingly credited with being Adequate. We all know that Shot placement is crucial in any situation, and it is the biggest determination of who walks away and who is carried away. But as far as the .380 being ENOUGH, it is capable of doing its intended duty.

shootingthebreeze
January 28, 2011, 12:12 PM
I like mgmorden's comment #30-that the chances of drawing a firearm in a defensive situation considering social conditions in the US as of this minute is very remote and that as a CPL holder, I will attempt always to avoid conflict and exercise situational awareness.
That said, based on the links I provided above, one can see that a .380 (depending on the ammunition make) has adequate velocity when used within the 10 feet or less defensive situation. I agree with skinsanity, that ammunition makers have kept up with .380 pistol demand by providing superior ammo.
If one has a .380 then it's important to research the available modern ammunition and match that ammo with the pistol. Doing so will provide adequate firepower and, decrease the risk of overpenetration which very high velocity rounds can do, causing potential bystander injury or death.
Range practice too is critical with any caliber for that matter.

AOK
January 28, 2011, 12:19 PM
"Range practice too is critical with any caliber for that matter."

-----------

Yeap, software over hardware any day of the week.

Gottahaveone
January 28, 2011, 12:25 PM
"Martínez said that he does not believe Sandoval is facing homicide charges, and that he was taken by police for personal security reasons."

That's the part that bothered me. Did they take his family in for "personal security reasons" too? He did an excellent job defending his family with the tools he had available. Now they're presumably sitting alone in the same house that it's "too dangerous" to leave Mr. Sandoval in.

Schuarta
January 28, 2011, 12:28 PM
My daily carry is a P245 Sig Compact .45 ACP. ;)

But on (rare) special occasions, when I have to dress up real purty, mainly for my wife, the .380 becomes the "carry" for that event. Much easier to hide under you best clothes. :cool:

David E
January 28, 2011, 01:47 PM
I have been running matches that target (:D) the carrygun. I allow .380's, but in the past year, only one person has shot one.

If everyone and their brother shoots a .45 but carries a .380 (as many would have us believe) then they need to shoot their .380 far more than they do.

Kleanbore
January 28, 2011, 02:15 PM
Posted by David E: I have been running matches that target () the carrygun. I allow .380's, but in the past year, only one person has shot one.I have a friend who carried revolvers when he was an officer, but he recently bought a Kel-Tec .380 for pocket carry.

He was then faced with the prospect of qualifying at the range for a retired LEO carry permit. He decided that the Kel-Tec was not a viable proposition for that and has acquired a DA only Beretta .40 caliber pistol for that purpose.

That ("shootability"), more than caliber effectiveness, has been my primary objection to the .380 for self defense, though I'm still not convinced that the power is necessarily adequate.. I doubt he would have seen the need to buy something else to use, had he been carrying a Beretta Model 84.

I have another friend who is a lieutenant on a major police force. Many of his fellow officers carry the LCP for back-up. He doubts the effectiveness of the .380 and carries a compact .45.

Is his doubt justified? As an instructor who has trained with Col. Cooper, he has more of a basis from which to judge than I do. I am amazed by the number of arm-chair ballistics experts on the internet. It would seem to to that if there is doubt, and I suggest that the facts that no police departments issue .380 service pistols and that none of the armed services that once issued pistols chambered for the 9MM Kurtz (Corto) still do so indicate that there is doubt, the carrying of something more potent might be less risky.

The .32 S&W Long was once condisered fine for the NYC police department, but not too many people would recommend it today.

Mayo
January 28, 2011, 07:03 PM
Can we all agree that given a .380 vs 9mm---if the gun size was the exact same, the weight was the same and recoil the same---that 1 would choose the 9mm? Given that the answer is yes, then shoot/carry what pistol you can shoot best with recoil as the X factor since the size wouldn't matter.

76shuvlinoff
January 28, 2011, 09:36 PM
Quote:
... the fullsize 1911 and even the XD40sc don't always fit the moment. At those times my little wimpy LCP fills the bill
Gotta ask... do you carry all 3, or do you anticipate "the moment" ahead of time?

No I obviously should have written "don't always fit the cover clothing of the moment"

Now please bust my chops for not always being willing to dress to carry an "adequate" lead launcher like a gold plated DE fiddy...

Weevil
January 28, 2011, 11:58 PM
Can we all agree that given a .380 vs 9mm---if the gun size was the exact same, the weight was the same and recoil the same---that 1 would choose the 9mm? Given that the answer is yes, then shoot/carry what pistol you can shoot best with recoil as the X factor since the size wouldn't matter.


Well the problem with that is the 9mm is a more powerful caliber and as such will always have more recoil than the less powerful .380.

A 9mm and a .380 pistol of the exact same size and weight will not have the same amount of recoil.

The .380 will have less recoil and be easier to control and allows for faster follow-up shots.

This is one reason 9mm pistols are usually larger and heavier than .380s. The larger size and weight help to soak up the recoil and give them better control.

There is a point of diminishing returns where if you make 9mm's smaller and lighter they get harder to control and shoot accurately and this is where a less powerful round like the .380 finds it's niche.

doctorxring
January 29, 2011, 12:52 AM
.

I think a smaller round backed by good tactics will beat
larger arms with poor tactics most of the time.

That's what this Mexico LE's experience here showed. He was
evidently close, charged and and opened up in their faces like
a rampant tiger and it was over in a flash. He was cornered
with larger firepower and read the situation correctly. The
BG's fell to his tactics as much as his gun. They got sloppy,
and he prevailed.

My P380 is not my first choice, but I don't feel naked or weak
when I'm carrying it. And I try to pay attention.

dxr

76shuvlinoff
January 29, 2011, 06:48 AM
I think a smaller round backed by good tactics will beat
larger arms with poor tactics most of the time.....

....My P380 is not my first choice, but I don't feel naked or weak
when I'm carrying it. And I try to pay attention.

dxr

This is probably the most sensible and best statement I've read on this subject.

Mayo
January 29, 2011, 08:24 AM
Weevil---not necessarily. You could have 2 identical size pistols, height, length etc...which means both could be pocket carried. However, if the 9mm weighs .4-.5 oz more, the recoil could theoretically be the same. In that situation I go with the 9mm. Heck, in any situation I would take the 9mm over the .380 UNLESS I couldn't shoot the 9mm---haven't had that happen yet.

NMGonzo
January 29, 2011, 12:04 PM
No mention of helmets ... got them all in the head in close quarters or from behind?

Anyhow ... I carry whatever I can carry but color me lazy i carry my .380 keltec or the bersa most of the time.

shootingthebreeze
January 29, 2011, 12:41 PM
Many here still miss the point of my posts.

The issue of .380 effectiveness lies in the proper selection of the ammunition. As popularity rises with .380 pistols, ammunition makers have also made more effective bullets.
Cor Bon 90 grain jacketed hollow points is one. Hornady makes a hollow point which will retain its shape and not fragment. As I stated earlier, if you use a .380 you want a large wound channel which causes the perp to bleed to put it bluntly. You don't want a round which causes the tissue to close on itself-plus, as I stated too, most defensive engagements will be 10 feet or less which means the perp will get the maximum foot per second velocity.

North Bender
January 29, 2011, 01:03 PM
These discussions have no end.

You want a "perp" who's "10 feet or less" away to "bleed out"?

Phantom Captain
January 29, 2011, 01:11 PM
To the point then...

I daily carry a .380 PPK/s loaded with the 102gr Rem. Golden Sabers. Of all the SD rounds I've tried I love the Golden Sabers best. I like that they are the heaviest commercial .380 bullets available. They feed without a hitch, everytime, and they are remarkably accurate and low flash. I practice with it a lot. More in the summer than winter but during the winter I go to the indoor range once every month or two and put 50-100 rounds through it. Summer is much more because I can shoot outside.

It carries comfortably and I have total confidence in it and my abilities. For me, that's enough.

shootingthebreeze
January 29, 2011, 01:41 PM
North Bender, you miss my point.

The selection of proper modern .380 ammunition is critical in maximizing .380 effectiveness. .380 ammunition has improved based on .380 demand.

A large wound channel is better than one that seals up because it causes more damage-especially to major organs. Its shock power is also increased.

So if you choose a .380 then also carefully choose the right ammunition.

Phantom Captain has got it.

Weevil
January 29, 2011, 03:29 PM
Weevil---not necessarily. You could have 2 identical size pistols, height, length etc...which means both could be pocket carried. However, if the 9mm weighs .4-.5 oz more, the recoil could theoretically be the same. In that situation I go with the 9mm. Heck, in any situation I would take the 9mm over the .380 UNLESS I couldn't shoot the 9mm---haven't had that happen yet.


Oh I guaratee that if there's only a 1/2 an ounce of difference in weight you'll definitetly be able to tell which one is the 9mm.

You're gonna have to add a lot more weight than .5 oz to make the 9 as easy to shoot and control as the same size .380.


There's just no easy way to get around the fact that the 9mm has more power and energy than a .380. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's physics and you can't change it.

You don't get something for nothing, the smaller and lighter the pistol the harder it is to control and shoot accurately during rapid fire, in any caliber and increasing the power of the round only makes it worse.

If you increase the power of the round you're shooting by using a larger caliber you will sacrifice control.

Oh sure you can make the pistol heavier or larger to soak up the added recoil but then you get back to why not use a smaller caliber so the pistol will be smaller and lighter and still have decent control.

Handguns are all a compromise between power and control.

It'd be great to have the power of a .500 S&W with the recoil of a .22 short in a pistol that'd fit in the watch pocket of your jeans but it just don't work that way.


We all have to find our own balance between the power of our caliber and our ability to control it in our chosen platform. Some people can shoot the wings off a fly with a snubnose .357 magnum and other people struggle to hit the broadside of a barn with a full-size .22.


Perhaps that's why there are so many calibers and guns to chose from, so we can all tailor them to our own needs and wants. ;)

Jaywalker
January 30, 2011, 09:36 AM
Interesting article. It's also interesting that we accept it on face value, something we normally don't do for newspaper articles.

I'm not familiar with Mexican Law, but my understanding from the past was that it was "military" rounds that were forbidden, e.g. 9mm, .45, not something "more powerful than the .380." I recall the great popularity of the 38 Super in Mexico for that reason.

Also, just because a Mexican official reported the use of a 380 doesn't necessarily make it so. The guy could have used an M60 with AP rounds, policed his brass, and then scattered some 380 brass. He could have had three friends with AR-15s with him, sent them away, then offered an honorarium to the responding officers to ignore discrepancies.

Think about the likelihood of a guy with a single 380, and not a movie actor, canceling the tickets of three armored and heavily armed assailants. if he ambushed them outside, maybe, but when they were ready and coming in? I like the 380 as much as anyone, but I'm having some trouble with that one...

kev778
January 30, 2011, 12:06 PM
All I know is a .22 cal pistol or rifle will kill you dead just as much dead as .50 cal BMG. Just with less mess to clean up

So .380 by all means, but the ammo is more expensive than 9mm or .40 SW

GRIZ22
January 30, 2011, 03:56 PM
Sometimes the 380 will work as you relate and sometimes it won't. i know of an instance where a LEO was shot in the mouth with a 380, the bullet ricocheted off his teeth or roof of his mouth, went through his tongue and exited his chin, and lodged in the flesh on his chest. After he was hit he drew and returned fire killing his assailant.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
January 30, 2011, 04:07 PM
who hear will allow me to shoot them with my .380?

i think that will answer the question just fine. yes there are more powerfull rounds, yes i usually carry a .40 or .45acp but while at work i can really only carry a P3AT in a pocket and still be concealed.

Mayo
January 30, 2011, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE][who hear will allow me to shoot them with my .380?
/QUOTE]

Who here would choose to be shot with a 9mm or a .380? Since a R9 is virtually the same as a P3at---how is it somebody(who has the means) would choose that over an R9?

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
January 30, 2011, 04:18 PM
price, weight, etc, etc. i used to have a PF9, sold it to my brother because at that time with the jab i had it allowed me to carry a full sized gun. the job i have now does not. i got a the P3AT basically for $50 so thats why i carry it now.

so i ask again, who would let me shoot them with my little .380? its not about price, or what else is out there, its about what you feel comfortable to carry.

Hanshi
January 30, 2011, 04:20 PM
When a NY cop won a gun battle with a much better armed bad guy, he was asked by a reporter if he felt at a disadvantage with his service revolver, he said, "shooting straight with a .38 beats giving jive with a .45".

Mayo
January 30, 2011, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE][i got a the P3AT basically for $50 so thats why i carry it now/QUOTE]

So it's because of money---which is fine. That said, if somebody offered you the choice of an R9 or P3at which would you(anybody) choose? They are virtually identical in size and weight so why go with a smaller caliber. Nobody would even want to get shot with a BB gun so the .380 question is moot.

Doghandler
January 30, 2011, 06:47 PM
Looks to me like the little .380 worked just fine in the original situation for whatever reason.

Some times it's those fast little sparky fellas you gotta watch out for.

:neener:

:D

:evil:

Smoovbiscuit
January 30, 2011, 06:50 PM
I think you should use what ever you shoot best with. Practice is key. I personally think .380 would be sufficient if you know how to shoot it.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
January 30, 2011, 06:58 PM
the P3AT honestly.

Patriot1/3
January 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
My back-up .380 is a reliable defensive weapon. 15rd mags with the Ranger Talons,has saved my life numerous times. Primary is the Glock 22 with the .357 barrel,talons as well.

Weevil
January 30, 2011, 08:23 PM
Since a R9 is virtually the same as a P3at---how is it somebody(who has the means) would choose that over an R9?


Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/recoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

CZguy
January 30, 2011, 10:53 PM
Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

I agree. I had real difficulty shooting my LCP accurately at first. Finally, after a bunch of practice I've got the hang of it. And I'm not new to shooting handguns. These small pocket pistols are difficult to shoot well.

For a 9mm (CCW) I prefer my CZ RAMI. It's a chunky lille thing, but I can shoot it really well. But I do have to carry it in an in the waistband holster. I guess it's all about compromises.

straightshooter9
January 30, 2011, 11:24 PM
I have no problem with a .380...........
I really had a hard decision, could have gone either way with a .380 OR 9mm :banghead:......I carry the 9mm, but wouldn't hesitate carrying a .380...........
I REALLY like some of the .380 pistols, like the Beretta 92FS.
Good ARMY "shot placement" training at the rifle range, I guess!:what:

David E
January 31, 2011, 12:01 AM
if you use a .380 you want a large wound channel

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there !!!

RinkRat
January 31, 2011, 12:44 AM
My mommy always said not to run with scissors :p she also said be careful with that BB Gun or you’ll put somebody’s eye out :rolleyes: My son tricked out his spring powered airsoft .45acp replica and shot a raven bird at about 28ft and it fell over and didn’t get up :cool: Our dog immediately scooped it up and ran off with it :what:

GLOOB
January 31, 2011, 01:33 AM
I remember trying to shoot a raven with a Crossman BB rifle, as a kid. They hit about as hard as water off a duck's back. One time, I swear the bird took 3 or 4 hits, unconcerned, before flying off.

OTOH, I made a shot on a robin once, from about the better part of 100 yards. Each of my brothers had taken a shot, and were so far off the bird didn't even notice. I laid down supine, with the gun propped on one knee. I used a good inch or two of hold over, guessing about 3 or 4 feet of drop at distance, using iron sights. Brothers were deriding the futility of the effort, the whole time. Downed the thing, first shot. That was the last time I shot at a bird, though. Didn't see the point of it after that one. My legend was made. :)

Mayo
January 31, 2011, 08:05 AM
Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/recoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.
Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/roh...ecoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.



Of course---there is virtually no difference between the P3at and R9--sounds like YOU have never shot an R9. A $5 replacement spring is your concern? How much is .380 ammo vs 9mm? The difference in quality of the 2 is laughable--and when it comes to pocket carrying a bug---when the time comes I'll take the 9mm at close range any day.

shootingthebreeze
January 31, 2011, 08:27 AM
David E Message 100... based on the proper selection of ammunition.
That's what I have been trying to explain all along.

Cor Bon 90 Grain Jacketed Hollow Points or Hornady hollow point or any good quality round which will expand the same all the time without fragmenting. If you are going to use a .380 then ammunition selection is critical.

Weevil
January 31, 2011, 02:28 PM
Of course---there is virtually no difference between the P3at and R9--sounds like YOU have never shot an R9. A $5 replacement spring is your concern? How much is .380 ammo vs 9mm? The difference in quality of the 2 is laughable--and when it comes to pocket carrying a bug---when the time comes I'll take the 9mm at close range any day.


BULL!

No I haven't shot an R9 and I seriously doubt you have either, but I have shot several small nines and I have read the reports of those who have actually shot an R9 and they all state that the R9 has a very stout recoil much more than a similiar sized .380.

There is no way a 9mm is going to have the same recoil as a .380 of the same size.


The point of the recoil spring is that the R9 is too small for the 9mm and will batter itself to pieces unless a fresh spring is put in at very short intervals.

Now why do you suppose the P3AT doesn't require constant spring changes???

It's obviously a lower quality pistol than the R9 but yet it doesn't wear out the recoil spring after 100 rounds.

Now that recoil from the 9mm that's wearing out those springs in short order and will batter that little pistol to pieces is going to be transfered to your hand, and you're gonna sit there and claim that it has the same felt-recoil as a P3AT???

I repeat BULL!

Mayo
January 31, 2011, 05:10 PM
Shoot an R9 and then get back to me. R9 is no range gun--and neither is a P3at. Maybe a slight bit of difference in recoil---but not near enough to justify a .380 over a 9mm---AGAIN, if you can afford 1.

Recoil springs need to be replaced on all guns--it doesn't stop working or malfunction or even break if you exceed the interval. You simply replace the spring when you clean the gun. Better the spring take the abuse then a frame. Either try them both before you make a decision or if you can't do that then simply ask the many people on this site who have and they will tell you.

hiker44
January 31, 2011, 05:15 PM
Just remember what the gun was designed to do. It's more a "get the heck away from me" gun than a target shooter. Considering the situation originally described and the probable skill of the user, I'd say it filled the bill...that time. I prefer more punch, especially at home in my bedroom. A 12 gauge with number one shot or a .357 with hollow points would serve me better, but the cop obviously did what he could where he was with what he had.

OldCavSoldier
January 31, 2011, 07:31 PM
I have two .380ACP's: One Walther PPK and one Colt Government Model .380......both shoot very well, easy to conceal and are great as a #3 backup gun. Of course, like the old guys say: A .25 in your pocket beats a .45 in your truck.

Pyro
January 31, 2011, 10:36 PM
I carry a .25 as a primary and feel perfectly safe.

psyshack
February 1, 2011, 01:53 AM
.380 is bug only for me.

benzy2
February 1, 2011, 03:24 AM
My problem is, that on most days, I don't carry at all and I don't worry about it. It seems so many that come into a discussion like this see carrying as a requirement, and then the rules are that you shoot the biggest hand cannon you can hide. That isn't me and it isn't what I want.

I have yet to feel undergunned with a .380. May not be the most ideal chambering in the history of the world, but with the ammo available today, I feel confident that it will stop any issues I may ask of it. As has been stated over and over, the two issues are penetration and shot placement. I personally shoot the LCP very well. Don't know why, but slow fire groups are into two inches at 10 yards and rapid fire opens up to about 6". I won't say that is how I would shoot if the time comes, but it seems well enough. And even then, an expanded .380 is about .5". An expanded .45 is about .75". A miss with the .380 is probably a miss with the .45 (or whatever round you want to compare to).

Then comes penetration. I'm not using this to shoot through barriers. To me, I see my real threat as a close and personal confrontation. At the distances I see a threat happening, the .380 has been shown to perform to a consensus well enough. For me, I see shot placement with the LCP as satisfactory and penetration as satisfactory. If you fear other threats, or other situations, it may not qualify. For my personal requirements, I feel protected. I wouldn't hold it against anyone for wanting a different caliber, bigger or smaller. Realize that before a mass generalization is made about what is and what isn't capable, that not everyone holds the same requirements for both the pistol and the chambering.

NidStyles
February 1, 2011, 07:57 AM
What an annoying argument. If a BG can be put down with a particular round, from a particular firearm that you can effectively use when it comes to a high stress situation, then carry it.

An endless argument over what is better is nothing more than an exercise in futility. That's like me going around telling people they can't buy firearm's in the first place, because they are sometimes used in criminal activity. The market has option's for a reason, because not one single firearm fits all need's. Vote with your money, and learn that arguing over caliber is pointless. Any caliber can put a person down, if the person firing can aim it sufficiently. Buy what you like, and practice with it.

That's all it comes down to.

I carry .380 at all times. If I'm in bed it's on the nightstand. If I'm in the shower it's on the sink. The .40 sits under my desk, and if something were to happen, like social unrest or rioting, it would come out. I have practiced enough with the .380 so that I can carry it confidently. Just like the Army always told me, it's always a training issue when shooting.

mljdeckard
February 1, 2011, 08:23 AM
If the .25 (or .380) in your pocket beats the .45 in your truck......you dropped the ball when you put the little gun in your pocket and left the big one in the truck.

No, a .380 isn't enough. Neither is a .45. I think it's a bad idea to select a minimal version of an inferior tool. It's like saying; "Jumping out of a plane is dangerous to begin with, so it doesn't matter if I don't use the best parachute I can."

Having said that, yes, current ammo offerings make a .380 a lot better than it used to be. But when people are really concerned with size, there are sub-compact offerings in 9mm, .40, .357 Sig, .45, and 10mm. I don't see the justification. I'm about to get my mother a Walther PK 380, but it's because she needs a lighter slide rack due to a wrist injury, not because she is too frail to shoot something bigger.

haslethandgunner
February 1, 2011, 12:12 PM
When it's 100 degrees in Texas, concealing my lcp is much easier then my pt1911! And as some have said, having any pistol with you all the time is better then carrying some of the time!

Ya'll are much more thoughtful about this stuff, but in the winter I feel a .45acp will do the job regardless of the clothing, size etc. of the attacker. In summer, chances are the attacker will be wearing no more then a t-shirt and shorts, so a .380 may not blow him back 20ft, but 7 little holes will give him pause long enough for me to get myself and my family to safety.

mljdeckard
February 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
Zero sympathy. I carry a full-size 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers.

You are assuming you will get seven shots. I would feel lucky to get ONE. I want it to count.

The effectiveness of any round doesn't change with the seasons. If it isn't good enough for winter, how can you be sure that SUMMER won't invent a problem for it as well?

harmon rabb
February 1, 2011, 01:14 PM
He knew how to shoot. Where you hit is more important than what you hit with.

CZguy
February 1, 2011, 01:15 PM
Zero sympathy. I carry a full-size 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers.


The only problem with that line of thinking is that there's no end. For example. I don't feel comfortable with any pistol caliber, so I carry a .12 ga pump.

It's a little bulky though, so I settle for my .44 mag.

At some point we all have to realize that what you carry is a personal choice. It's a balance of what you can shoot well and still conceal.

If someone tells me they carry a .25 or a .45, I don't bat an eye. Now if they ask my opinion that's a whole different thing.

easyg
February 1, 2011, 01:24 PM
When it's 100 degrees in Texas, concealing my lcp is much easier then my pt1911! And as some have said, having any pistol with you all the time is better then carrying some of the time!
This is same old lame "either, or" argument....

It's too hot for me to carry my 1911 so I MUST carry my peashooter. :rolleyes:

You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.

CZguy
February 1, 2011, 01:37 PM
You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.

Of course they are. To numerous to name, and I happen to carry one. But my point is that what someone carries is a personal choice. If they are content to carry a .25 or a pocket knife it's up to them. At least that's my opinion.

Even if you aren't comfortable carrying an LCP, would it be alright if other people did?

easyg
February 1, 2011, 02:01 PM
If they are content to carry a .25 or a pocket knife it's up to them. At least that's my opinion.

Even if you aren't comfortable carrying an LCP, would it be alright if other people did?
It's not like I'm running around confiscating everyone's LCP's and "peashooters".

But I can't participate in a handgun forum and, in good conscience, tell folks that their .380 is fine for self defense when I really think otherwise.
That's the same as lying to the person.

haslethandgunner
February 1, 2011, 02:48 PM
This is same old lame "either, or" argument....

It's too hot for me to carry my 1911 so I MUST carry my peashooter. :rolleyes:

You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.
I'm not sure where the argument is; if I'm wearing light shorts and a t-shirt to go jogging, fishing etc. it's impractical to pack a ss 1911, and since .45 of even the 3" variety don't fit in a pocket so you go with what caliber will fit the situation.

Will a .45 make a bigger hole then a .380? Of course, but the object is to defend yourself from a would be assailant. Isn't it? If you can't effectively hit the purp with the weapon of choice, the solution is to practice more and worry about the size less.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 06:29 PM
All I'm saying is that in todays market there is a negligble difference(sometimes none) between the .380's and 9mm. I'll give you that if you can't shoot a 9mm as good as a .380 then carry the .380----I don't know why you couldn't, but OK. Other then that, if you can afford it and if you can shoot it and conceal it as well---then why would you choose a .380 over a 9mm?:what: Doesn't make any sense. Since some like to say shot placement---then if your shot placement is the same, which caliber do you choose? And finally for a good portion of shooters out there that say "I feel comfortable and well armed in my .380"-----let me ask you a question-----then why do you have a different caliber for anything but BUG? Use a .380 for EVERY scenario!

easyg
February 1, 2011, 06:31 PM
I'm not sure where the argument is; if I'm wearing light shorts and a t-shirt to go jogging, fishing etc. it's impractical to pack a ss 1911, and since .45 of even the 3" variety don't fit in a pocket so you go with what caliber will fit the situation.
No, you don't select which "caliber" you think fits a situation....you just carry a smaller handgun, but still one in a caliber than is more effective than the .380.

Per your example (shorts and T-shirt to go jogging) perhaps a belly-band or a fanny-pack with a Glock 26 instead of the 1911.

And if you're going fishing then you can always put your 1911 in your tackle-box.

There just no good reason to go with a weak caliber unless that's all you are capable of shooting.

Ruark
February 1, 2011, 07:11 PM
This discussion reminds me of a semi-joke I sometimes tell people when they laugh at me for tossing my 5" 9-shot .22LR revolver into the glove compartment when I'm going on a Sunday afternoon drive. I've had the gun about 25 years, fired tens of thousands of rounds through it.

"OK, I'll make you a deal. I'll put $50,000,000 on my dining table, and stand in front of it with my worthless little .22 revolver. You come through the front door there about 25 feet away. If you can touch the money, you can have it. Deal?"

Nobody's taken me up on it yet, including a couple of tough-talking SWAT cops in a gun shop. They thought it was hilarious.

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
Lets recap again for those who believe their 9mm is some secret squirrel .50 cal and pistols chambered in .380 although unbeknownst to most, actually shoot spit wads & peas.

"Sandoval shot and killed three of the men with a .380-caliber pistol and scared the fourth away."

Can't imagine anyone scared of a pea...lol

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 07:18 PM
50,000,000? At least make it realistic--say 50,000---OK, I'll do it---did I mention I might come in prepared for your gun---maybe like a robber would---do you still want to grab your .22 revolver?

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 07:22 PM
Did I mention too that I will have my Glock 33 shooting back at you---advantage me----big time.

heeler
February 1, 2011, 07:25 PM
And on and on and on we go.
The other night I was reading a story in Chris Birds book "The Concealed Handgun Manual" and there was a most interesting read of one Leo Arrendondo who not once but twice fought off and killed three very bad hombres with a lowly Davis .380 all the while being fired upon by such weapons as the .45 ACP semi-auto,a .38 Special in the first go around killing one of the assailants.
Four years later family members of the deceased came for him and this time the bad guys were using a .357 Magnum,and a 12 gauge pump shotgun in which Arrendondo was wounded by the pump 12 gauge mind you, but he still prevailed killing both blood seeking family members who came to kill him.
Again with another lowly,cheap Davis .380.
Just thought I would put that on the plate so all could dwell on.

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 07:28 PM
Did I mention too that I will have my Glock 33 shooting back at you---advantage me----big time.

Advantage goes to the better pistolero.....Ever hear of David and Goliath? ;)

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 07:38 PM
And on and on and on we go.
The other night I was reading a story in Chris Birds book "The Concealed Handgun Manual" and there was a most interesting read of one Leo Arrendondo who not once but twice fought off and killed three very bad hombres with a lowly Davis .380 all the while being fired upon by such weapons as the .45 ACP semi-auto,a .38 Special in the first go around killing one of the assailants.
Four years later family members of the deceased came for him and this time the bad guys were using a .357 Magnum,and a 12 gauge pump shotgun in which Arrendondo was wounded by the pump 12 gauge mind you, but he still prevailed killing both blood seeking family members who came to kill him.
Again with another lowly,cheap Davis .380.
Just thought I would put that on the plate so all could dwell on.

and you'll hear more and more of these stories as all the .380s purchased for CCW start having to do what they were bought for......Then and only then will the .380 get any respect from the haters....Just like the old 9mm and .45 arguments.

Lets not forget John Browning designed the cartridge and felt it good enough to go to market....Anything JMB designed and believed in has my respect!

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 07:51 PM
Advantage goes to the better pistolero.....Ever hear of David and Goliath
2 things

1. Did you miss the part of what I'm wearing during this fight?
2. Since I'm proficient in shooting---as is my cohort-----caliber makes a difference.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 07:55 PM
Hey, bottom line, if a .380 is all you can handle and can't shoot as well as a 9mm or .45---then by all means carry the .380---but with the size of sub compact 9's available today--the old arguement of carrying due to size doesn't hold water.

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 07:58 PM
2 things

1. Did you miss the part of what I'm wearing during this fight?

Ummm, yes....What a dress? ;)


2. Since I'm proficient in shooting---as is my cohort-----caliber makes a difference.

and so does your Glock right?....but who is more proficient? :neener:

76shuvlinoff
February 1, 2011, 08:03 PM
somehow this is all going off the high track

heeler
February 1, 2011, 08:06 PM
Just a word before the lock and key gets put on this thread Mayo.
I just recently purchased a Kahr PM9 to start carrying.
However there is NO way it is as easily concealed as my micro Diamondback 380 that I have been carrying for a year now.
The Kahr is pretty micro for what it is to and hats off to Kahr for getting it where it is but with my .380 stacked right on top of it I can tell you the .380 is substantially smaller and untill I can come up with a comfortable way to keep my Kahr totally concealed and still keep a reasonable mode of comfort I will still carry my,as some would say, limp wristed .380

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 08:12 PM
Hey, bottom line, if a .380 is all you can handle and can't shoot as well as a 9mm or .45---then by all means carry the .380---but with the size of sub compact 9's available today--the old arguement of carrying due to size doesn't hold water.

What don't you gentlemen get about, it isn't always what one can handle?.....I already had a .380 long before the mini 9mm's came out. I also have a 9x18 chambered pistol that I carry. I am confident and comfortable with eithers ability as well as my own, to diffuse a threatening situation. If I want bigger and more powerful, I can also just carry one of my full size pistols.

I feel no need to go buy a mini 9mm because you or anyone else says they're available today. I have what I need, do you?

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 08:18 PM
somehow this is all going off the high track

How's that?.....The title of this thread is an invitation to debate the capability of the .380 cartridge. :cuss: lol

No humor is allowed?

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 08:28 PM
I just recently purchased a Kahr PM9 to start carrying.
However there is NO way it is as easily concealed as my micro Diamondback 380 that I have been carrying for a year now.
The Kahr is pretty micro for what it is to and hats off to Kahr for getting it where it is but with my .380 stacked right on top of it I can tell you the .380 is substantially smaller and untill I can come up with a comfortable way to keep my Kahr totally concealed and still keep a reasonable mode of comfort I will still carry my,as some would say, limp wristed .380

As easily concealed---no---an R9---Yes. Now the important question---if you knew there was a good chance that you might run into trouble on a certain day, which gun would you grab of the 2? So now, on that day comfort(or more comfort) takes a back seat to caliber.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE][and so does your Glock right?....but who is more proficient/QUOTE]

That was my point---we are both proficient---him with his .380 and me with my Glock 33--advantage me.

heeler
February 1, 2011, 08:44 PM
If I knew??
The day of the big fight at O.K. Corral(I truely wonder how many here have REALLY been down that road) I will make sure I have my pump 12 gauge and deer rifle.
I mean after all all these pistols are so weak....

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 08:48 PM
If I knew??
The day of the big fight at O.K. Corral(I truely wonder how many here have REALLY been down that road) I will make sure I have my pump 12 gauge and deer rifle.
I mean after all all these pistols are so weak....

You know exactly what I'm saying. If you could only pick 1 of the 2, which 1? You and I both know the truth.

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 08:51 PM
You know exactly what I'm saying. If you could only pick 1 of the 2, which 1? You and I both know the truth.

Ummm, if I knew I'd get in a head on collision today, I'd drive my dump truck.....Well, maybe I should drive it everyday, just in case! :uhoh:

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 08:54 PM
You know exactly what I'm saying. If you could only pick 1 of the 2, which 1? You and I both know the truth.

Depends on the size of the gun.

If it's a full-size then yeah I want the 9 or a 45.

If however we're back to your R9 and the P3AT choices, I'll take the 380, and while you're trying to dig the R9 out of your forehead after the first shot I'll empty the P3AT's mag into your chest. ;)

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 08:57 PM
Ummm, if I knew I'd get in a head on collision today, I'd drive my dump truck.....Well, maybe I should drive it everyday, just in case!



Wow--you are really doing your best to avoid the answer. Here ya go, you are in the kitchen and you have the Kahr and .380 on the table in front of you----you hear a loud noise in the next room---which do you grab(no other guns)?!

heeler
February 1, 2011, 08:59 PM
Actually Mayo since you asked "if I knew" I gave you a straight answer.
But I have no want to lug around a three pound 10 mm semi-auto for the day that in most likely hood will never come.
And anyway maybe the camp of Angels hovering around Leo Arrendondo will be hanging around me that very day.

Edit to add..I am done with this show.

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 09:00 PM
Wow--you are really doing your best to avoid the answer. Here ya go, you are in the kitchen and you have the Kahr and .380 on the table in front of you----you hear a loud noise in the next room---which do you grab(no other guns)?!

Well, I don't own a Kahr but If I was at my home, I'd grab the shotgun with "00" ;)

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:02 PM
If it's a full-size then yeah I want the 9 or a 45

Why--don't you feel adequate with the .380---if it's good enough when your life is in danger then it should be good enough on EVERY occassion.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:04 PM
Well, I don't own a Kahr but If I was at my home, I'd grab the shotgun with "00"


I'll take that as the 9mm.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:06 PM
But I have no want to lug around a three pound 10 mm semi-auto for the day that in most likely hood will never come.
Yeah, a 10mm 3 pound is in the same category as a subcompact 9mm roll eyes!

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 09:10 PM
Yeah, a 10mm 3 pound is in the same category as a subcompact 9mm roll eyes!


Well yeah but the 10mm is gonna be a helluva lot more effective than some puny ass little girly man 9mm!

And apparently you seem to think it's all about caliber.

FruitCake
February 1, 2011, 09:12 PM
Some manufacturers are really doing a good job at making nice small 9mm. I handled (at the gunshop) a kahr P9 and was very impressed at the way it fit my hand and its size. Ruger just came out with their compact 9mm. If they keep coming out with more compact 9mm I'm all for it.Yes 380 is a very good round, but pretty soon the compact 9mm are gonna take over. I've shot quite a few compact 380,s and the PF9 for example all have not so nice recoil so I'd just rather get a compact 9mm. Size difference is there but not that much. PM9 is pretty close to the 380 LCP and P3aT I think. Hey get whatever you like.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:19 PM
And apparently you seem to think it's all about caliber

Hello, McFly, think McFly. If you can get the power of a 9mm vs that of a .380 in a comparible size pistol(not a 10mm vs .380 or vs full size)---then IF you can afford 1, there is no reason to choose a lesser caliber and the OLD arguement of concealing due to size doesn't apply today. Now reason MOST people can't shoot a 9 as good as a .380---if you can't(for some reason) then by all means at least carry the .380.

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 09:34 PM
Hello, McFly, think McFly. If you can get the power of a 9mm vs that of a .380 in a comparible size pistol(not a 10mm vs .380 or vs full size)---then IF you can afford 1, there is no reason to choose a lesser caliber and the OLD arguement of concealing due to size doesn't apply today. Now reason MOST people can't shoot a 9 as good as a .380---if you can't(for some reason) then by all means at least carry the .380.


Hello McDoofy, think doofus. You can get the power of anything into a small pistol including the 10mm.

The problem is that all that power becomes difficult if not impossible to control and make quick follow-up shots, that's why you don't see micro 10mm's.

You cannot cheat the laws of physics no matter how much money you spend.

The smaller and lighter the pistol the harder it will be to control as you increase the power of the round you are shooting.

Sure you can increase the power and potentially the effectiveness of a small pistol by using a larger more powerful caliber but you will be sacrificing control and the ability to rapidly put your follow-up shots on target.

You don't get something for nothing.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:45 PM
Really? Haven't seen a sub compact 10mm---you'll have to point that 1 out for me. Hey, if you can't handle a 9mm subcompact then shoot the .380---my wife shoots a 9 but some people can't. If you can however, then you should choose a 9 over .380---you can do it with a little practice I'm sure.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:48 PM
Since most encounters are generally 7 yards or less, I'd be interested to know how bad you are at that range with a subcompact 9mm vs how great you are with a .380? Is there really that big a difference(for you) or have you even tried?

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 09:48 PM
Ooookay......whatever bud. :rolleyes:


I carry a KelTec P11 so I know a little about shooting a small 9 and I have been shooting pistols for close to 40 years now but hey why should I trust in my own experience and judgement when I can listen to some wannabe expert on the internet instead. :rolleyes:



Let me know when you get that R9. ;)

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 09:57 PM
Really? Haven't seen a sub compact 10mm---you'll have to point that 1 out for me.


Hmmmm.......I guess you have trouble with reading comprhension too.



The problem is that all that power becomes difficult if not impossible to control and make quick follow-up shots, that's why you don't see micro 10mm's.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 09:58 PM
I'm sorry---was that an answer?:scrutiny:

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 10:01 PM
Answer to what???


How bad I am at shooting???


Apprently you can't understand the concept of control so what's the point of discussing it with you or replying to your asinine and insulting questions.

mbruce
February 1, 2011, 10:10 PM
LOL...good stuff -- usually you only get to read stuff like this on the Reloading forum

p.s I have a subcompact 10mm...or advertised as that.... and I can shoot for SD as fast as I can pull the trigger...and I have a green and a red lazer so it looks like Christmas!

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 10:26 PM
You tried to make a comparison to a non existent gun----comparing an R9 and a .380 is comparable. Comparing a .380 to a 10mm is not. Are you saying you can't shoot your 9mm as well as your .380 Mr. 40 years? Subcompacts today in 9mm are virtually the same size as the .380's with little or no difference in recoil---if you can't handle a subcompact 9mm where most confrontations are 7 yards or less--then go with the .380----beyond that or because of money you should(if you can) go with the 9mm.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 10:33 PM
Answer to what???


How bad I am at shooting???


I'd be interested to know how bad you are at that range with a subcompact 9mm vs how great you are with a .380? Is there really that big a difference(for you) or have you even tried?

This 1.

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 10:34 PM
You tried to make a comparison to a non existant gun----comparing an R9 and a .380 is comparable. Comparing a .380 to a 10mm is not.



Oh I did and exactly which post did I do that in???


If you are refering to post #153 I never compared the 10mm to a .380 or what post are you talking about???

jbkebert
February 1, 2011, 10:36 PM
I carry a .380 and I do not feel undergunned. A buddy owns a meat locker where I have my hogs processed and a beef every year. Anyhow I got from his locker some shoulders from cattle a couple of fresh skulls and even a femur. I was curious since we had played around with bows and arrows on the penatration of diffrent broadheads and how tuff they really are. I fired 5 mags of various .380 through my Browning BDA. The Winchester PDX1 is the round I have chosen to carry. It penatrated a fresh skull from 10 yards, broke a femur, and broke a shoulder plate into three peices with multiple fragments.

No the .380 is not a .45 I do not claim it to be. Yet I hear time after time after time that it should be compared to a paintball gun. No one has offered to stand down range holding a target knowing they will get no more than a welt or a small bruise. Besides when I find a sub-compact 9mm with the looks and class of my Browning .380 I might buy one.

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 10:38 PM
I carry a KelTec P11 so I know a little about shooting a small 9

So apparently you have a .380 and a 9mm. Are you saying you can't shoot your 9 as well as your P11? I doubt it. Most will say--well my P3at pocket carries better---true--but as mentioned before, an R9 carries just as well--so IF you have the means, why would you choose the .380 over the 9mm now? Because you suppose you won't be able to shoot the R9 as well? Even though you've never shot 1?

Mayo
February 1, 2011, 10:41 PM
Besides when I find a sub-compact 9mm with the looks and class of my Browning .380 I might buy one.


Here you go:
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/ and it's 9mm.

mbruce
February 1, 2011, 10:41 PM
Some say a 9mm isn't enough....some wackos even go further and say a .44 special isn't enough.....

I'd love to get into this because its entertaining...but i must stay out because I can't follow the argument and i'm not reading 7 pages dedicated to a .380

my CCW is a Keltec PF9... and no -- if i fire all 7 shots -- unforunately game over..meth or no meth...take all the speed u want -- it won't help ya. I have a Kahr pm9...but it stays in the closet -- I prefer the Keltec

Today's CCW 9mm make it to where few situations do you need a .380 or a .32

jbkebert
February 1, 2011, 10:41 PM
I did fire a kahr 9mm. Granted first time I fired one. I did find if I aimed at a kneecap I could hit chest with the 2nd quick shot.

mbruce
February 1, 2011, 10:44 PM
I did fire a kahr 9mm. Granted first time I fired one. I did find if I aimed at a kneecap I could hit chest with the 2nd quick shot.
LOL.....well at least ya know your aiming spot!

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 10:44 PM
I'll take that as the 9mm.

If you were at home would you grab your mini skirt 9mm or your 410 shotgun? :cool:

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 10:45 PM
This 1.

As a matter of fact I have been making some excellent observations as to control between a small 9mm and a comparably sized .380 with a similiar action.

As mentioned I have a P11 and I also have a Walther PK380, these two guns are very similiar size and weight wise and both use a tilting barrel design, so no nasty recoil like you would get from a blowback .380.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/akd1.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/100_0221.jpg


The PK is much, much easier to shoot and control than the P11 and yes it is noticable.

However I do prefer the P11 and 9mm for carry as I prefer the higher velocity and heavier bullet weights which allow me to use hollow-points and still have good penetration. I won't use anything but FMJ in a .380.

But I do realize that in using the P11 instead of the PK380 I'am sacrificing the better control and ease of shooting of the .380 for the power of the 9mm.

Now does that answer your question?

mbruce
February 1, 2011, 10:48 PM
My Keltec PF9 kicks harder than my Glock 10mm....

is this thread really a debate on handling the blowback of a .380 or the kick of a 9mm? seriously?

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 10:49 PM
Here you go:
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/ and it's 9mm.

No where near as formidable of a weapon as the Browning BDA/Beretta 84.....Regardless of the caliber.

jbkebert
February 1, 2011, 10:53 PM
Mayo

While the R9 is a fine firearm from a great manufacture not my style. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=559900&highlight=browning+bda+.380

mbruce
February 1, 2011, 10:54 PM
Here you go:
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/ and it's 9mm.
Y'all crazy if you going to pay $1,000 for that.

Geckgo
February 1, 2011, 10:56 PM
Calibre wars are so much fun :)

+1 to using FMJ in a .380, penetration is key right behind shot placement!

I think the reason that people like to belittle the poor 380 stems from the inability to find a round that will open up to .45 inches and penetrate reliably, and a .45 doesn't need to expand to be that diameter :) Still, a little hole in the spinal chord or brain pan and your assailant isn't going to be around to argue the point. I think the main reason for me going 45ACP was that it makes it easier to argue for a 1911 down the road ;)

Weevil
February 1, 2011, 10:57 PM
I'll vouch for the BDA being a great gun.

I had one and it was my EDC for several years.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/BDAIII.jpg

I still kick myself in the butt for selling it.

Great gun!

easyg
February 1, 2011, 11:33 PM
This discussion reminds me of a semi-joke I sometimes tell people when they laugh at me for tossing my 5" 9-shot .22LR revolver into the glove compartment when I'm going on a Sunday afternoon drive. I've had the gun about 25 years, fired tens of thousands of rounds through it.

"OK, I'll make you a deal. I'll put $50,000,000 on my dining table, and stand in front of it with my worthless little .22 revolver. You come through the front door there about 25 feet away. If you can touch the money, you can have it. Deal?"

Nobody's taken me up on it yet, including a couple of tough-talking SWAT cops in a gun shop. They thought it was hilarious.
I would take you up on that bet.

I can cover 25' in about 3 seconds.
And from my totally surprised entry I seriously doubt that you can draw your .22 and get off more than a single aimed shot in that amount of time.

And even if you got off 2 rounds in that time the odds of me surviving would be extremely high since you're using a .22 from a 5" barrel.

Bottom line:
The .22, even from a 5" barrel, is a horrible choice for a self defense handgun.

jbkebert
February 1, 2011, 11:37 PM
And when your done you can come over and hold my .380 target center mass. What could go wrong:uhoh:

Fastcast
February 1, 2011, 11:44 PM
I would take you up on that bet.

I can cover 25' in about 3 seconds.
And from my totally surprised entry I seriously doubt that you can draw your .22 and get off more than a single aimed shot in that amount of time.

And even if you got off 2 rounds in that time the odds of me surviving would be extremely high since you're using a .22 from a 5" barrel.



I'd have to see this....Can we legally arrange it?....I have a table and a dining room. :eek:

Would you sign a waiver?.....LMAO

Donations anyone?

Seven For Sure
February 2, 2011, 12:20 AM
Donations for the adult diapers easyg will be pooping in if he survives a little .22 to the noggin?

jrod102
February 2, 2011, 01:39 AM
Lets have one of the .380 haters shoot themselves in the foot with a .380 and then again in the other foot with a larger calibre and report on which one hurts the most. Just an idea.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after ya. :uhoh:

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 08:09 AM
Let's try to sum up what I'm saying------IF you feel you can't shoot anything higher then a .380(subcompact) with good accuracy, then by all means shoot/carry a .380. That said, the age old arguement that you carry a .380 because it is simply a better pocket carry---is no longer true. There are 9mm pistols the same size. Again, if for some reason you can't shoot and be accurate with the subcompact 9---then carry the .380. Now with that said, I can't fathom anybody who can 1. afford and 2. shoot the 9mm subcompact well--would choose to carry the .380 over the 9---especially if they even romotely think that an incident might truly happen that day. The .380 caliber discussion(for some) makes no sense---IF you feel so adequetly armed with the .380---then use it for every situation! If you don't, then you must not feel adequately armed all the time.

AOK
February 2, 2011, 09:33 AM
"That said, the age old arguement that you carry a .380 because it is simply a better pocket carry---is no longer true. There are 9mm pistols the same size."

That's not true. I personally pocket carry as a backup or when at work (as a primary) based on my attire. I started out with a PF9 for pocket carry. It fit okay in a couple pair of slacks but it was usually to big most of the time. Now I carry a bodyguard 380 for my pocket and it is much less noticeable compared to the PF9. I'd rather carry a 9mm but its just to big when at work contrary to your statement.

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 09:39 AM
I'd rather carry a 9mm but its just to big when at work contrary to your statement.

2 things:
1. R9 is just as small as the .380---but of the 2 you listed yeah
2. If you REALLY expected something to happen the day you carried, would you still choose the .380 for a little more comfort or would you grab the 9?(between the PF9 and bodyguard)?

AOK
February 2, 2011, 11:50 AM
"If you REALLY expected something to happen the day you carried, would you still choose the .380 for a little more comfort or would you grab the 9?(between the PF9 and bodyguard)?"

-----

If I REALLY expected something to happen that day the best defense is to not go there at all. It's not a comfort thing for me at all, its an absolutely nobody can find out thing. With that said, if it was a comfort thing, I would have never gotten the bg in the first place and I would certainly opt for a larger caliber. That's why when I'm not at work I carry my Glock 23 all day everyday no matter the weather or my attire.

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 12:00 PM
If I was REALLY expecting something to happen I'd take a shotgun.

And if I all I could take was a handgun it'd be a 10mm or a .45 not some wimpy 9mm.

Get real Mayo 9mm is not the Hammer of Thor, there isn't that big of difference between the 9mm and a .380.

The bullets are the exact same diameter, the only real advantage of the 9mm is of you are using expanding HPs but out of the short barrel of an R9 you're gonna lose so much velocity that your HPs probably won't expand anyway. So what exactly is this tremendous advantage the 9mm is gonna have out of a tiny last ditch deep concealment BUG???

The R9 would make a decent boot gun but I sure wouldn't want it if I was REALLY expecting trouble.

easyg
February 2, 2011, 12:36 PM
I'd have to see this....Can we legally arrange it?....I have a table and a dining room.

Would you sign a waiver?.....LMAO
Show me the money ($50,000,000.00 US dollars) up front and heck yeah!

I've been shot before and I didn't get any money for it. :(

Worse case scenario, I die and my wife becomes a rich widow.

easyg
February 2, 2011, 12:43 PM
Get real Mayo 9mm is not the Hammer of Thor, there isn't that big of difference between the 9mm and a .380.
No, the 9mm para is not "the hammer of thor", but there is a huge difference in effectiveness between the .380 and the 9mm para.....especially 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ ammo.

The .380 has been abandoned many years ago by every police agency I've ever heard of....and for good reason:
It sucks at quickly stopping aggressive humans.

CZguy
February 2, 2011, 12:44 PM
The reality is that unless you are going to a known dangerous area, you can't predict what day you will need a gun, first aid kit, or fire extinguisher. So it's back to a compromise between what the individual is willing to carry on a daily basis, as opposed to what will stop a threat to your life. This isn't a one size fits most decision. It's something each one of us will have to work out for ourselves.

It might be more constructive to list what you carry, and what led you to those conclusions.

This time of year I can comfortably conceal a Glock 32, in .357 Sig. As it's gets warmer I will drop down to a CZ RAMI in 9mm, and in the dog days of summer (depending on attire) I may opt to carry a Ruger LCP. To me the important thing is to carry something. If they were to allow open carry (a whole other discussion) I would just stick with the .357 Sig. Let me just say that I don't have complete confidence in any handgun stopping a threat in one shot, but the 12 gauge is just to bulky.

easyg
February 2, 2011, 01:10 PM
It might be more constructive to list what you carry, and what led you to those conclusions.

This time of year I can comfortably conceal a Glock 32, in .357 Sig. As it's gets warmer I will drop down to a CZ RAMI in 9mm, and in the dog days of summer (depending on attire) I may opt to carry a Ruger LCP.
Just curious, but why switch from the Glock to the RAMI when it gets warmer?
There's not really much difference between the two pistols size wise and weight wise....

Length:
G32 = 6.85"
RAMI = 6.5"
+CZ

Width:
G32 = 1.18"
RAMI = 1.30"
+Glock

Height:
G32 = 5"
RAMI = 4.7"
+CZ

Weight:
G32 = 21.52 oz empty
RAMI = 24 oz empty (polymer frame model RAMI)
+Glock


I carry my Glock 27 year round.

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 01:16 PM
No, the 9mm para is not "the hammer of thor", but there is a huge difference in effectiveness between the .380 and the 9mm para.....especially 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ ammo.

The .380 has been abandoned many years ago by every police agency I've ever heard of....and for good reason:
It sucks at quickly stopping aggressive humans.


9mm is better if you're using HPs.

9mm has the bullet weight and velocity to expand and get decent penetration with an HP when you use a full-size or compact pistol with a decent barrel length. But the .40, .357 sig, .45, and 10mm are better at it.

The 9mm is the bare minimum for use with HPs.

The .380 just doesn't have enough power to push an expanded bullet deep into the target.

This is why police agencies have abandonned the .380 and the 9mm for that matter and have gone to the .40 and .357 sig in increasing numbers they expand more reliably and get better pentration which increases wound volume.

However out of tiny little short barreled pocket guns like the R9 the loss of velocity from that short barrel means that an HP is probably not going to expand and will act like an FMJ anyway.

So since a 9mm FMJ is the exact same diameter as a .380 FMJ what is your advantage in a small BUG type of pistol???

jbkebert
February 2, 2011, 01:24 PM
This is by far the most advanced technique of figuring out stopping power. Come on kids shot placement and penatration is key. Just like a deer doesnt care if it gets hit by a .243 or a 30/06. A 110# tweaker won't no the diffrence between a .380, .22 lr, 9mm, or .300 win mag when it penatrates the heart, brain, or spine

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp80Cnz4ahiLz8i-OOcAssbdC5Kgd4Osvz219S1C32aLWpjPYF

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 01:43 PM
Come on Weevil---quit dodging---yeah, yeah if you knew there might be trouble you would grab a 12 gauge--NOT what we are talking about. If you only had the option of grabbing a .380 or 9mm--which 1 do you grab---be careful about your comfort because today might be the day.

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 01:45 PM
The R9 would make a decent boot gun but I sure wouldn't want it if I was REALLY expecting trouble.



Your credibility is wanning---9mm or .380 is the option, which 1 are you grabbing? Every sane person says 9mm, but if you want to be obstanant go ahead.

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 01:51 PM
Come on Weevil---quit dodging---yeah, yeah if you knew there might be trouble you would grab a 12 gauge--NOT what we are talking about. If you only had the option of grabbing a .380 or 9mm--which 1 do you grab---be careful about your comfort because today might be the day.

I have already answered it on several occasions.

If the choice is a small BUG type of pistol like the R9 or the P3AT I will take the .380 since it gives me better control and there is really no advantage to a 9mm in such a small short barreled pistol.

Now in a larger pistol with sufficient barrel length that gives a good chance for the expansion of an HP I'll pick the 9mm over the .380 since as I already stated I only carry FMJ in .380s.

Next question.

verdun59
February 2, 2011, 01:52 PM
What kind of tax bracket does that $50,000,000.00 put you in ?

CZguy
February 2, 2011, 01:55 PM
Just curious, but why switch from the Glock to the RAMI when it gets warmer?
There's not really much difference between the two pistols size wise and weight wise....



To me there is quite a bit of size difference. I guess it all depends how you carry it.

One whole finger on the grip for example. But the RAMI is extremely easy for me to shoot well, probably because I'm an old 1911 guy. I've really had to work hard to be able to master the Glock, and The Ruger LCP. When I first got the LCP, I didn't shoot it well at all. But the double action trigger just took some getting used to. The sights leave a great deal to be desired but I can use them during the day. At night I would prefer one of the other two because of the better sights.

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 01:56 PM
Your credibility is wanning---9mm or .380 is the option, which 1 are you grabbing? Every sane person says 9mm, but if you want to be obstanant go ahead.

As for being obstinent why don't you answer my question as to what the advantage is to the 9mm in a small pistol like the R9, since 9mm and .380 have the same diameter bullet?

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 02:01 PM
like the R9 or the P3AT I will take the .380 since it gives me better control and there is really no advantage to a 9mm in such a small short barreled pistol.



There goes your credibility---laughable to say P3at over R9. Have you ever even shot an R9 or are you assuming you can't shoot as well with a subcompact 9? No excuse unless you have a physical disability, to not be able to shoot a subcompact 9 accuratley. As for you .380 vs 9mm comparison there are tons of ballistic info---9mm still wins out----google search.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 02:01 PM
You could kill the intruder with a powerful BB gun or a pellet gun, if you shoot the bad guy in just the right spot.

As always, no matter what caliber you are shooting, shot placement is everything, then there is, well..........shot placement!:cool:

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 02:03 PM
Let me save you some time---don't cry

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 02:04 PM
As always, no matter what caliber you are shooting, shot placement is everything, then there is, well..........shot placement!
__________________


Exactly---now given shot placement being equal(shooting proficiency)--which caliber do you want?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 02:14 PM
Maybe a .380, maybe a ,38 or maybe something twice as large. Remember, though, when twice as large, many times it ends up sitting at home, especially during summer months when people are wearing thin and very little clothing.

In that case, I will take a Ruger LCP.

John_galt
February 2, 2011, 02:28 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/clhdo/deadhorse-1.jpg

Come on we can't stop now a just over +200 posts on a caliber war over .380? There will be no respect left for this forum if we can't get the post count over 500. I mean this is good stuff, lot really ....solid ........um kinda factual based .....opinion...........umm. Ok never mind, I didn't make it to the end of the first page and I couldn't take it anymore.

easyg
February 2, 2011, 02:32 PM
As for being obstinent why don't you answer my question as to what the advantage is to the 9mm in a small pistol like the R9, since 9mm and .380 have the same diameter bullet?
It's not just about diameter....it's also about penetration.
From a short barreled pistol the 9mm is still going to penetrate better than the .380, and be less affected by thick winter clothing.
Sure the 9mm will lose some velocity due to the short barrel (and thus penetration), but the .380 will likewise lose velocity, and penetration.

No matter how you try and spin it, the .380 is not a good self defense caliber.
The only reason to choose the .380 is if you just can't handle anything more powerful.
And I've never met anyone, of any age, of any stature, that couldn't shoot a 9mm just as well as a .380.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 02:36 PM
The only reason to choose the .380 is if you just can't handle anything more powerful.
And I've never met anyone, of any age, of any stature, that couldn't shoot a 9mm just as well as a .380.
Not TRUE!
I carry a .380 and I shoot a 4" 500 Magnum until the sheep come home.
Don't give me that "you can't handle anything more powerful" business.

easyg
February 2, 2011, 02:48 PM
Not TRUE!
I carry a .380 and I shoot a 4" 500 Magnum until the sheep come home.
Don't give me that "you can't handle anything more powerful" business.
So you can shoot 500 magnum from a heavy 4" revolver....


But can you shoot a 9mm para from a sub-compact pistol, and do so accurately at rapid fire?




If the answer is "no" then you are admitting that you can't handle the 9mm in a sub-compact pistol.

If the answer is "yes" then you really have no reason to chose the weaker .380.


Easy

haslethandgunner
February 2, 2011, 03:02 PM
Mayo,

Since you obviously are an expert on what fits every persons personal defense needs, would you care to investigate the relative size of a 9mm that has the same dimensions as my lcp (since it DOES fit in my pocket well). If you would share with me the make and model, I'll check into buying one this summer. Oh and while your at it, I would like one with a stronger recoil spring so I can get a good second shot off too. In the meantime, I'm going to continue to read these theoretical diatribes about whether a caliber that has been around for years, and has indeed stopped numerous incidences from going in the wrong direction, is effective at doing what it was intended to do....protect the owner.

larryh1108
February 2, 2011, 03:18 PM
But can you shoot a 9mm para from a sub-compact pistol, and do so accurately at rapid fire?

I can! I shoot my Kahr PM9 just fine and accurate during rapid fire. I guess 1500+ rounds thru her helped me get there. However, more often than not I carry my LCP because 9oz vs 15oz is a difference in many instances that suit me. It's my choice for my reasons and no one here will make me feel under-gunned or stupid for my choice. I also have a S&W M&P9c and a Taurus PT145 for small choices. It is my choice what I carry and why. I am very confident in my LCP up to 30'. Self defense is that. It is not a shootout where I go looking to shoot someone but it is there if someone wants to do harm to me or my family/loved ones in my vicinity. Outside of 30' I should have other options to get to safety. As long as I am packing I don't feel undergunned.

Pyro
February 2, 2011, 03:33 PM
The only reason to choose the .380 is if you just can't handle anything more powerful.
That's a terribly strong comment.
As I said before I carry a .25acp pistol, not because a 9mm, .40, .45 hurts my wittle hands but because I know the gun and have shot it plenty to feel confident in it. With my small frame that little .25 disappears.

If the answer is "no" then you are admitting that you can't handle the 9mm in a sub-compact pistol.
If the answer is "yes" then you really have no reason to chose the weaker .380.
Now your being childish.

As long as I am packing I don't feel undergunned.
I like this comment.

In the end it's all up to the carrier to decide what he or she is carrying.
What's the big deal with others getting their panties in a bunch when others carry calibers smaller then they are? When they ask about my .25 I just say I'm compensating for a big ****. :cuss:

LawofThirds
February 2, 2011, 03:41 PM
Mayo's argument is simple. Since the 9mm is such a more powerful round, the first aimed shot should end the conflict, while the .380 is destined to empty its magazine in frustration as the bullets bounce off.

There's on average a mere 100 ft/lbs of energy difference between the two. If that means that the person using the .380 gets their second aimed round off faster (someone with a compact 9mm & .380 go figure that out, I bet it'd be a pretty decent difference), then the .380 is better most of the time. Remember, no round can be counted on giving a true one-shot stop unless it's out of a crew served artillery piece. At a certain size of gun, the .380 wins. Now if you want to compare full sized service pistols, then yes, the 9mm is the better option (but then it loses to .40, .45, .357 sig and 10mm). I will even say it wins at the mid-sized range.

For example: My wife can shoot both a compact 9mm and a .380 equally accurately. But her time between viable center mass hits in the 9mm is almost twice that of the .380. After all, aren't we oh so fond of saying "when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away"? I'd rather have a second bullet in the air in that situation than a single, slightly more powerful round. Which is, ironically, why I carry a .38 snubbie when it gets hot. I can get 3 158g SWCHP's moving at 1000fps downrange accurately in the same time as 2 115's.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 03:43 PM
:cool:What's the big deal with others getting their panties in a bunch when others carry calibers smaller then they are? When they ask about my .25 I just say I'm compensating for a big ****. :cuss:
Amen.

kev778
February 2, 2011, 03:44 PM
Let me save you some time---don't cry

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm
First off. I could care less what anyone cares to use for bullet caliber, etc. I feel if you can hit a target consistently within a 6 inch circle 10 yards and 25 yards away, you are going to severely hurt and or kill your "alleged" attacker. I use alleged because when you go to court the person that was wounded or killed will only be a perceived/alleged threat until proven otherwise (just some real life legal mumbo jumbo that everyone needs to be aware of before you pull that trigger)

As I digress, The article that was quoted here first off is from 2000. It is now 11 years old. So essentially well out of date considering all the new products that are coming out in the ammo arena. But based on that article I read that the .380 will potentially kill an attacker just as dead as the 9mm.

Further, let me pass on a few anatomy lessons that will prove what I just said as well as put to rest this perceived notion that bigger is better. (And oh BTW a 9mm is .355 inches and the .380 is well .380 inches.) LOL so there is your bigger is not necessarily better.

The heart rests roughly 1-1.5 inches behind a human's outer skin layer on their front chest cavity. That distance includes the breast plate/ribs. Knowing that, if you were to be shot with either you will surely be missing parts of your heart since the table stated that the shortest distance penetrated by the .380 was 6.02 inches. Clearly both are going to give you some heartburn. summary: both will kill

So stop with the bravado and start focusing and realizing that when you go to court your argument better have a lot of stats and proof as to why you drew and then fired on the alleged assailant. In the end that will be the only thing that matters when you are trying to prove your innocence. I know, I know what a buzz kill, but that will be the reality. So don't worry too much about how far your bullet will expand and penetrate just remember before you pull the trigger make sure you can't "run" first and if you can't run ask yourself will I be severely wounded or killed if I don't run. Then if you deduce you can't run then shoot and shoot a couple of rounds and remember "aim small, hit small" But know that the bullet that will be hitting the alleged assailant will most likely render him/her useless long enough for you to run safely away regardless of caliber or platform used.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 03:45 PM
So you can shoot 500 magnum from a heavy 4" revolver....


But can you shoot a 9mm para from a sub-compact pistol, and do so accurately at rapid fire?




If the answer is "no" then you are admitting that you can't handle the 9mm in a sub-compact pistol.

If the answer is "yes" then you really have no reason to chose the weaker .380.


Easy
I can shoot ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
THERE.
I'm finished with your nonsense!

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 03:52 PM
Mayo, did you even bother to read the link you provided.


So for a short-barreled, concealment-size pocket pistol, all features of the guns being equal, which cartridge choice is best for personal defense, .380 or 9mm? Some have argued that in the very short barrels (in the 3.0- to 3.25-inch range) typically found on small pistols, the apparent ballistic advantage of the longer case 9mm is canceled and the two loads' performances are essentially the same. My own actual side-by-side testing doesn't prove that out. In fact, there really isn't very much of a contest at all. The 9mm wins hands down.

Post #196


Now in a larger pistol with sufficient barrel length that gives a good chance for the expansion of an HP I'll pick the 9mm over the .380 since as I already stated I only carry FMJ in .380s.


So does the R9 have a 3" barrel???

Does the R9 have sufficient barrel length to maintain the velocity for reliable expansion of HPs???

Your link is for larger 9mm's not the R9.

As I already stated I carry a P11 which fits perfectly with the link you provided but the R9 which you are so whipped on does not.



Your reading comprehension is almost as bad as your spelling.;)

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 03:59 PM
No ifs ands or buts---the 9mm is superior to the .380----if you can't accurately shoot a subcompact 9mm----then go with a .380. If you CAN accurately shoot a subcompact 9mm then why on earth would you go with a .380? As for the weight R9 is 13.5 oz and IF trouble strikes I'd rather have a 13.5 oz 9mm then a 10oz .380---but that's just me.:neener:

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 04:01 PM
My favorite quote from the article kind of sums it up

If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 04:15 PM
So does the R9 have a 3" barrel???


Yes

Pistol
Load
Bbl Length (in.)
EBL (in.)
Velocity (ft/sec)

Rohrbaugh R9
Fiocchi 115-gr. FMJ
3
2.25
978

Glock 26
Fiocchi 115-gr. FMJ
3.46
2.71
1180

Rohrbaugh R9
Win. USA 115-gr. FMJ
3
2.25
1072

Glock 26
Win. USA 115-gr. FMJ
3.46
2.71
1097

Rohrbaugh R9
Win. 115-gr. STHP
3
2.25
1047

Rohrbaugh R9
Federal 124-gr. HS
3
2.25
1054

Glock 26
Corbon 115-gr. DPX+P
3.46
2.71
1181

SIG-Sauer P225
Corbon 115-gr. DPX+P
3.86
3.11
1163

Browning Mk III
Corbon 115-gr. DPX+P
4.66
3.91
1244

Browning Mk III
Corbon 115-gr. JHP +P
4.66
3.91

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 04:20 PM
That's nice, I'll stick with my 380 in my pocket holster.:)
Thanks but no thanks.:D

verdun59
February 2, 2011, 05:08 PM
Hold up guys, I going to get a beer......

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 05:11 PM
Don't forget the urinal while you are away!:eek:

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 05:14 PM
That's nice, I'll stick with my 380 in my pocket holster

That's OK buckaroo---we won't think any less of you--I promise.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 2, 2011, 05:19 PM
No, when I am playing the Buckaroo part, I am wearing my 500 on my hip with my Australian leather hat!

easyg
February 2, 2011, 05:24 PM
That's a terribly strong comment.
As I said before I carry a .25acp pistol, not because a 9mm, .40, .45 hurts my wittle hands but because I know the gun and have shot it plenty to feel confident in it. With my small frame that little .25 disappears.
A .25 ???
My friend, you could not have chosen a worse caliber for self defense.
I hope for your sake that you will never need to actually use it.


At a certain size of gun, the .380 wins....
I will even say it wins at the mid-sized range.

There is no logic to this line of thinking.
The .380 does not "win" over the 9mm para in any size handgun.
It's a much weaker caliber.
And when you compare it to 9mm +P ammo and 9mm +P+ ammo, the .380 is beyond dismal.



The heart rests roughly 1-1.5 inches behind a human's outer skin layer on their front chest cavity. That distance includes the breast plate/ribs. Actually it lies deeper from the surface of the skin....about 3" deep depending upon how fat the person is.
And this is really only pertinent to a straight-on hit.
But most bad guys are not just going to stand there like a paper target at the range.
Most likely you will be shooting with your target at an angle, or even sideways.
The bullet might have to travel across the chest laterally, maybe even needing to penetrate the upper arm before even reaching the chest.
Measure from your outer shoulder to the mid-line of your chest....
Most adults will measure at least 10 inches, and on men with broad shoulders it can measure much more.
The .380 will not reliably provide this much penetration in a human body.


I can shoot ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
THERE.
I'm finished with your nonsense!
Yeah, sure you can....and that's why you choose to carry a .380. :rolleyes:

Weevil
February 2, 2011, 05:28 PM
No ifs ands or buts---the 9mm is superior to the .380----if you can't accurately shoot a subcompact 9mm----then go with a .380. If you CAN accurately shoot a subcompact 9mm then why on earth would you go with a .380? As for the weight R9 is 13.5 oz and IF trouble strikes I'd rather have a 13.5 oz 9mm then a 10oz .380---but that's just me.



Well I notice Rohrbaugh also offers the same pistol in a .380 version.


Now why in the world do you suppose they would do that.


Could it be some people value control more than power in a small pistol???


But hey that's not you!


No ifs and or buts the more powerful the round the less control you will have in a small pistol.

If you prefer power over control fine but don't be a fool, there is no way a small 9mm pistol is going to be as easy to shoot as the same size .380.

Control vs. Power

Why is that such a difficult concept for you to comprehend???


If you feel you the 9mm is the optimum round and gives you sufficient control fine, but obviously not everyone does or companies like Rohrbaugh wouldn't make a .380 version, now would they?

klash545
February 2, 2011, 05:43 PM
personally i wouldn't want to be shot with ANY caliber

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 05:45 PM
Uh---for girlie men who can't accurately shoot a 9mm, because there are stubborn .380 lovers until something happens then they wish for a 9 or more, because more women and kids are starting to shoot as well as elderly people with arthritis. If you can't handle the 9 then shoot the .380 or .32 or as low as you need.;)

jbkebert
February 2, 2011, 06:05 PM
Uh---for girlie men who can't accurately shoot a 9mm, because there are stubborn .380 lovers until something happens then they wish for a 9 or more, because more women and kids are starting to shoot as well as elderly people with arthritis. If you can't handle the 9 then shoot the .380 or .32 or as low as you need.

Boy now I have been found out. The 9mm while harnessing the power of the hammer of Thor. You must have the arms of Thor to weild such raw power. You must reek like the musk of a elk with so much hulk to shoot a 9mm. I will accept my quiet meek life as a contrator and find a .380 to match my nailbelt so I can be a the preettiest girlie man I can be.

larryh1108
February 2, 2011, 06:14 PM
Mayo is just a troll trying to stir up some excitement. He must be bored.

Mayo
February 2, 2011, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE][Mayo is just a troll trying to stir up some excitement. He must be bored.
__________________
/QUOTE]

Yeah, that must be it---a troll who's been here for 6 years! .380ists kill their own arguements buy using other calibers for other situations. If you feel adequately manned with the .380 then use it all the time---BUG, Truck/car, home, range---oh no, I want a full size for those situations they say---oh must be only subcompact pockets come in .380---oh no, R9. Well I shoot a .380 better---that's sounds like a YOU problem--no reason you can't be proficient in a 9mm----well, well the cost----OK, that 1 I'll give ya.

aryfrosty
February 2, 2011, 06:28 PM
I am very comfortable with my Sig P238. I try to use good judgement in ammo choices and I don't believe I'm undergunned.
One reply to someone who might ask about .380s could be that a .380 is also known as "9mm Short". A "10mm Short" is a .40S&W.:D

Sam1911
February 2, 2011, 06:28 PM
Wow. Just when I thought a caliber war thread was FINALLY going to be of some value ... and it get's ruined by exaggerated claims, taunting, and absurd hyperbole!

I can't believe it! Unprecedented!

And I thought ... *sniff* ... at LONG last ... *sob* ... I just might finally discover ... *sniff* ... which gun ... *sob* ... I DO want to be shot by! And now you all have RUINED it!






*sigh*

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