[LoneStar309]

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy my first AR, and I'd like some input from you guys. Here are my criteria:


The gun will be for target shooting less than 200yd, and for home-defense.
I'm not looking for competition-grade accuracy, but the more accurate the better obviously.
Buying a complete upper and complete lower separately is fine, but I'm not looking to assemble from parts.
It needs to be ready for an optic and BUIS.
Above all I want something that will function reliably and be as low-hassle as possible. I'd like something that will last.


I'm looking for people's opinions and experiences with guns in the $600-$850 range that fit these criteria. Thanks!

[TonyAngel]

This question has been asked A LOT. The answer is usually the same. Check out Bravo Company and Spike's Tactical.

[General Tso]

Doublestar from Bud's Gun Shop.

[Sebastian the Ibis]

I just got a mid-length spikes for $825 out the door, incl. all taxes and fees with a BUIS and a t-shirt. I went with Spikes because as far as I can tell, they are the only manufacturer that does not void the warranty if you use steel cased ammo. To me reliability means it is designed to use any ammo, and the manufacturer will stand behind it.

[sarduy]

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1DTIM4MOEODG&name=Delton+Inc.+MOE+Edition+DTI-15+.223%2f5.56+Rifle+OD+Green&groupid=11
https://www.aimsurplus.com/EOS/images/product/f1dtim4moe.jpg


http://www.jetguns.com/optics-ready-nato-811003-p-789.html
http://www.jetguns.com/images/sw_811003.jpg



http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ar_firearms.aspx

[bri]

Easy, Spikes Tactical.

[Z-Michigan]

Spike's Tactical or a S&W M&P. A BCM might be had at or just slightly above that range too.

[Dreamcast270mhz]

Any with a gas piston will be far more reliable and easy to clean than a DI.

[HorseSoldier]

Buying a complete upper and complete lower separately is fine, but I'm not looking to assemble from parts.

I can understand not wanting to mess with it, but I have to say that I'm pretty low end in terms of mechanical aptitude and can build an AR lower with no special tools while drinking a beer and watching an hour or so long TV program.

The last one I built ended up costing about the same as a bare bones assembled lower, but with a mil-spec buffer tube, Magpul CTR stock, and the mounting hardware for the Magpul MS2 sling fitted.

[nipprdog]

Easy, Spikes Tactical.

Their $809 deal on a Mid-length Carbine is one of the best deals going now.


http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html

[christcorp]

I bought my S&W M&P15OR on christmas eve; for $649. I think that S&W is a fantastic company. And for that price: No brainer.

[WardenWolf]

I've heard good things about DPMS, although I've never used one. The DPMS Sportical is in that price range.

[RockyMtnTactical]

Spikes is milspec quality at a great price. I prefer BCM but I think Spikes just edges them out on the money side...

[LoneStar309]

Thanks for all the input, guys. It sounds like there is a strong consensus for Spike's Tactical mid-length 16", so I'm leaning that way at the moment.

I'm curious, what is it about the Spike's AR that sets it apart from other AR's in the same price range? Is it the build quality? Customer service?

[wnycollector]

The spikes middy for $499 at aimsurplus is a very good deal for a high quality upper. They looks to be sold out currently, but they regularly get some in every few weeks.

If you want a quality super lightweight lower to go with it you might want to check out the Cav Arms MKII stripped lowers for $89 at http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CAVMKIIBLACK.aspx is another steal. Cav Arms lowers are ~1lb lighter than an aluminum lower and A2 stock and ~ 5oz less than a USGI collapsable stock and aluminum lower. If you dont want to build the lower yourself, PM fellow THR member Bubbles and she will hook you up with a complete Cav lower.

[RockyMtnTactical]

I'm curious, what is it about the Spike's AR that sets it apart from other AR's in the same price range? Is it the build quality? Customer service?

Quality. They build a rifle to milsepc while most others in that price range use cheaper materials and less QC.

[Davek1977]

So far (admittedly under 100 rounds shot, all today) I'm in love with my Doublestar CAR clone.....$669@ Buds.....fit and finish is amazing for such a "budget" AR, accuracy seems to be quite good, and no malfucions in the low number of rounds fired thus far. I suggest reading the reviews of the Doublestar's on Buds website.....very few people have anything negative to say about them, and I'm starting to see why

[kwelz]

Since you listed Home Defense as a requirement PLEAS PLEASE PLEASE stay away from Doublestar, DPMS, bushmaster, YHM and other low quality guns. Your life is worth the extra 150-200 dollars for a BCM or other quality firearm.

[kaferhaus]

Calling Bushmaster "low quality" ?

You've got to be kidding or perhaps your AR knowledge is not what you may think it is.

Any of the makes you just mentioned will run reliably. Further BM is one of the better builders on the planet... a REAL government contractor vs many others that are simply wannabes...

There are a lot of "good" ARs out there. None of them have a 100% sterling reputation including Colt or Daniel Defense. everyone puts a problem gun out there once in awhile.

Especially for the OPs stated needs. A double star or the like will suit him just fine and make his budget.

It wouldn't be for me but I don't have his budget constraints.

[Mike Sr.]

who is BCM....?

[bri]

who is BCM....?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm

[TonyAngel]

Oh, a mention of a piston up there. If you like the idea of a piston, look into it, but don't buy into that "more reliable" crap. They can and do have their own issues. Either DI or piston will run good if they are in good working order and either can have you tearing your hair out when they aren't.

[christcorp]

Calling Bushmaster "low quality" ?

You've got to be kidding or perhaps your AR knowledge is not what you may think it is.

Any of the makes you just mentioned will run reliably. Further BM is one of the better builders on the planet... a REAL government contractor vs many others that are simply wannabes...

There are a lot of "good" ARs out there. None of them have a 100% sterling reputation including Colt or Daniel Defense. everyone puts a problem gun out there once in awhile.

Especially for the OPs stated needs. A double star or the like will suit him just fine and make his budget.

It wouldn't be for me but I don't have his budget constraints.
When I picked up my M&P15 in December; they had a new Bushmaster poly for $599. I was not impressed. Maybe poly is good; then again, I would never own a glock, but I was not impressed with the Bush poly.

I also have no problem shooting russian steel case ammo. I believe; as does many others; that if your AR can't shoot steel case ammo, then maybe it's not the ammo. A rifle shouldn't be that picky. Especially a weapon that could be put into a position of needing to help save your life. When I read the reviews on different steel case ammo from the different vendors, I notice that an overwhelming number of the people who say to "Stay away from Russian steel case ammo" tend to be Bushmaster owners. Probably 8 out of 10 of the people who didn't like the russian ammo started by saying: "I shout this in my Bushmaster and .........". M&P on the other hand, seems to shoot anything you throw at it.

I personally don't care or get a woody when the term "MIL-SPEC" is thrown around. I spent 21 years in the military; shooting a lot of weapons. That term doesn't impress me. As long as it's an AR with standard spec parts; meaning interchangeable; I can decide what parts I want to use. So it doesn't have to be mil-spec and cost $1500; but at the same time, I don't want poly. And mainly, I want a gun that will shoot damn near anything at any time. (One reason I really love my AK's. Mud, dirt, water, etc... it keeps shooting). I wouldn't buy a bushmaster because it's picky about the ammo you feed it. Military type weapons should be prepared and capable of shooting whatever ammo it comes across. Bushmaster can't do that. Therefor; in my opinion; I'd stay away from it for anything other than punching paper.

[frankge]

spikes - have one in 5.56 all stock for my son and 7.62x39 (doublestar barrel) with enhanced trigger group for me. They are high quality (use quality maufacturer parts), fit and finish is excellent. Thier customer service is fantastic. And they are a local business to me in FL. I've been to thier shop and met the people. Can I say more?

[Quentin]

Oh, a mention of a piston up there. If you like the idea of a piston, look into it, but don't buy into that "more reliable" crap. They can and do have their own issues. Either DI or piston will run good if they are in good working order and either can have you tearing your hair out when they aren't.

Well said TonyAngel!

And to LoneStar309, this is why research is so important. Get a quality brand and stay away from the ones that come in at the bottom of your budget. I'd aim for the upper end you stated ($850), otherwise you may be pulling your hair out wondering what's wrong with that bargain gun.

[tinygnat219]

You won't find piston guns in that price range. Good piston guns START at 1400 plus. Also stay away from the piston kits, they are clunky and tend to cause carrier tilt. If you must go with a piston gun, go with one that has been designed from the ground up like the Ruger 5.56 or the LMT MRP, or if you are feeling really spendy, the LWRC line.

Spikes Tactical is the best gun in that price range and offers a lot for the money. Everything's milspec, you get everything properly staked, you have a chrome-lined chamber and barrel and that barrel has a 1:7 twist. All this for $799. While Bushmaster is a fine company, it doesn't offer the quality for anything close to that price.
Don't go with anything from Budsgunshop.com. That company will eventually kill your local dealer.

[christcorp]

Remember; the original poster is interested in an AR for paper shooting and possible home defense. While there is nothing wrong with a Spike's, a lot of the attributes being touted, aren't that important. Mil-Spec! Who cares? I don't. An AR bolt carrier group in my M&P instead of an M-16 bolt carrier group is no big deal. I'm not shooting Full-Auto. I don't need the M-16 bolt carrier group. My 1:9 twist barrel is quite acceptable. I don't need a 1:7. Like the original poster, I don't plan in getting into competition shooting. And unless you're planning on doing 300+ yard shooting (WITH BULLETS HEAVIER THAN 71 grains); the 1:7 barrel twist is simply just more money. My chrome lined 4140 barrel is not going to get shot out. I don't need a B-11595E barrel. Same with a double handguard instead of a single. Or using a carbine buffer instead of an H1/H2. (Which you can buy for $25.) In other words, Mil-Spec is definitely over-rated.

That's not to say that Spikes doesn't make a good AR at a decent price. And price is definitely important. I'm not going to buy a $1500 AR because it says Colt; Daniel; Noveske, LMT, etc... on it. If I was into competition shooting or shooting 300+ yard targets/critters, and that was my hobby, then possibly yes. But not for target practice, basic shooting, home defense, etc... At the same time, I don't want a no name made out of used/reconditioned parts either. I bought an M&P. "IF" my M&P was at normal retail price, "Basically $1000", I would definitely have chosen a Spikes. Maybe even a number of other brands under $1000. But in my case, my M&P15 was on sale for $749, and S&W had/has a military $100 rebate. So the final cost was $649. If that was available to the original poster, I would recommend that. Even over the Spikes. Quality company and product. 1:7 barrel; other mil-spec; not important. But if mil-spec is important to a person, even the M&P15 is mil-spec except for a couple of minor parts. Point is; what they're going to do with the rifle matters as much to choosing the right rifle. I'm not suggesting the M&P. For all I know, there aren't any sales. I wouldn't pay $1069 retail for it. Not even the $949 that many places sell it for. Just saying; if you could get something like an M&P for $649, like I did, that might be a better choice. Especially for the use the original poster has in mind for it.

[walter34payton2002]

Since you listed Home Defense as a requirement PLEAS PLEASE PLEASE stay away from Doublestar, DPMS, bushmaster, YHM and other low quality guns. Your life is worth the extra 150-200 dollars for a BCM or other quality firearm.

You are dead-on. Anyone who thinks Bushmaster is that high quality doesn't really have a clue. My idea of high quality is BCM, LMT, Noveske, Colt....These are made to spec. These have a true 5.56 chamber. These have the proper m4 feedramps. These have the right bcg. These have everything staked properly. These use quality parts. These use the milspec barrel steel. These use the 1:7 twist chrome lined barrel. These have the carrier keys properly staked. It goes on and on....There is a difference bewteen real defense weapons and the rest. Bushy is a hair better than the other commercial makers in my opinion, but they are hardly serious. Not being a snob, just giving you the fact of the matter. I have owned Bushmaster....They were fine for what I used it for, just like my DPMS was.

Anyway, my answer to the OP question was go with BCM complete upper, complete lower from G&R tactical (cosmetic blem $250!) and bcg from BCM. Everything else you can price and go. I like Magpul MBUS for sights. Good luck.

[walter34payton2002]

I also disagree about not needing the m16 bcg. It is not much heavier than the typical semi, but it is heavier (and fully shrouds the firing pin). The problem to me is the carbine length gas system is so violent and faster than rifle length that it is a good offset to try to slow things down so as to improve reliability. This coupled with an H buffer can go a long way for the carbine gas system to work more reliably. Also improves felt recoil. I just think if you are building from scratch it is a good idea to go with it. If not then no biggie, but I still would.

[kwelz]

Yes I called Bushmaster Low Quality and yes I stand by that. While I make no claim to be an expert I have spent plenty of time finding out what works and what doesn't The problems with Bushmaster is well documented. Ranging from the lack of M4 Feedramps to over torqued barrels, to the ever popular and fun out of spec chamber.

Your claim that Bushmaster is one of the better builders on the planet sounds like something only an employee of the company would try to claim. What makes them better?

Oh and for the record BM is NOT a government contractor. Please check your facts. There is not a single unit that has a single BM carbine or part issued. And there is a reason for this. Some other governments may purchase them but that is their problem.

Go over to M4C and ask around over there. Some of the armorers for PMCs that have had to deal with Bushmaster will tell you the horror stories they have dealt with.

If your budget only allows for junk then you need to wait another month or two to make the purchase.

Originally Posted by kaferhaus View Post
Calling Bushmaster "low quality" ?

You've got to be kidding or perhaps your AR knowledge is not what you may think it is.

Any of the makes you just mentioned will run reliably. Further BM is one of the better builders on the planet... a REAL government contractor vs many others that are simply wannabes...

There are a lot of "good" ARs out there. None of them have a 100% sterling reputation including Colt or Daniel Defense. everyone puts a problem gun out there once in awhile.

Especially for the OPs stated needs. A double star or the like will suit him just fine and make his budget.

It wouldn't be for me but I don't have his budget constraints.

[Tommygunn]

Bushmaster is really more middle of the road.
There isn't anything wrong with the Bushi that can't be rectified or fixed or changed out.
M4 feedramps were a compromise to allow old feeble mags to work more reliably.
Yes gas key nuts SHOULD be peened right but that can be done easy enough.
Plenty of Bushies run well.
That being said Noveske and BCM are definantly a step up.
Keep in mind that NO AR you will buy will be full milspec. That's because MILSPEC includes full-auto or triburst, which is restricted.

Even Colt has problems .... the last time I heard about a gas key loosening and jamming it was a Colt and it was in a blog from a soldier in Iraq!!
NO gun is perfect.

[nipprdog]

You won't find piston guns in that price range. Good piston guns START at 1400 plus.

Not true. The Stag Model 8 can be bought for just over $1000. It's one of the few, if not the only piston model, to incoorporate grooves to offset the 'tilt' problem. Unlike the $1500 Ruger that has a history of problems with carrier tilt.

[FMJMIKE]

Spikes Tactical..................:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/SPK2.jpg

[Quentin]

I also disagree about not needing the m16 bcg. It is not much heavier than the typical semi, but it is heavier (and fully shrouds the firing pin). The problem to me is the carbine length gas system is so violent and faster than rifle length that it is a good offset to try to slow things down so as to improve reliability. This coupled with an H buffer can go a long way for the carbine gas system to work more reliably. Also improves felt recoil. I just think if you are building from scratch it is a good idea to go with it. If not then no biggie, but I still would.
I agree, when you have control in a new build you should go with the M16 carrier and H buffer. This is particularly true with the carbine length gas system but worth thinking about even in a softer cycling midlength. I don't know that I'd go so far to say you have to upgrade to the M16 carrier but at least go with an H2 buffer to help offset the lighter AR-15 carrier. Now if your carrier doesn't shroud the firing pin then dump it quick, but I'm sure the S&W and most others today don't have that problem.

For example I have two midlength ARs, an ArmaLite upper that came with a shrouded AR-15 BCG (I put an H2 buffer in the ArmaLite lower I built for it) and a Daniel Defense upper with the 1/2 oz heavier M16 BCG (so I put the 1 oz lighter H buffer in the S&W lower I built for it). Both cycle just fine even with the lowest power steel case ammo which I must say surprised me. I love the soft recoil too.

I do think it's a good idea to buy a spare BCG so it might as well be a BCM or Daniel Defense M16 type that is completely milspec. It can be swapped in the rifle improving overall quality as the original BCG becomes an adequate spare. Now the S&W BCG is quite good, the only issue is the lighter carrier so an H2 buffer pretty much brings it up to snuff. And for someone who doesn't fire much of the cheap light loads an H3 should be the ticket.

ETA:
When swapping a BCG it would be wise to have headspacing checked. Rarely will this be a problem but something to think about.

[Spec ops Grunt]

What about Del-Ton?

[WeedWacker]

Any with a gas piston will be far more reliable and easy to clean than a DI.

Target shooting and home defense application lead me to believe the OP won't be firing more than 2400 rounds between cleanings making the extra financial burden of a piston AR necessary.

I will chime in with Del-ton as a decent entry level fun rifle with BCM as my more serious tool type rifle.

http://www.del-ton.com

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com

ETA: Just a note that a 1:7 twist barrel will allow you to use heavier rounds in the 77 grain range. it can be argued that these rounds are better for self defense (Hornady TAP (http://www.hornady.com/store/TAP-FPD-Bullets/))

[ulflyer]

Theres a local with a Colt Match Target Lightweight AR 15, MT6530, asking $850. I don't know squat about AR15's but am beginning to get interested.
How does the above, assuming its as nice as he says, compare in quality and price to other makes? It doesnt have a flash hider, thats all I could see different to other pics.

[Quentin]

That's a pretty good price for a Colt but it's not a flat top design so you're stuck with the integral carry handle. If I bought something like that I'm sure I'd end up buying another upper receiver. The quality should be excellent but it might have the larger size pins that complicate replacing the FCG or upper receiver.

So unless it's exactly what you want I'd put the $850 toward exactly what you want.

[Rshooter]

I am really surprised by the blanket comments about "low quality guns". Del-ton is not a bad gun and Double Star and others will suit your needs unless you are interested in heavier shooting than most of us. As far as Double Star, I built a gun around their parts and am completely satisfied with it. I am thinking about a Del-ton upper in government profile to drop some weight. My DS also does not have a chromed lined barrel, of course my M1, 1903, and other guns do not either.

I guess I am trying to say get a rifle that suits your needs and unless price is no option do not worry about the statements that other peoples' rifles are junk. Just do not get a HESSE or Vulcan, these rifles are scary.

[mshootnit]

Thanks for all the input, guys. It sounds like there is a strong consensus for Spike's Tactical mid-length 16", so I'm leaning that way at the moment.

Stick with this^

[ulflyer]

Quintin: thanks for feedback. I went to a gunshow this PM and talked to several vendors. Learned a little bit, but not enuf to want to buy right now.
One vendor had MMC's for $650 less a rear sight, and another had SI Defense lower & Del Pon upper for about $630 complete. MMC vendor said it had a lifetime warrenty! Is MMC a decent gun?

Was advised to buy a 5.56 which would shoot cheaper 223 but forgot to ask why a 223 wont' shoot 5.56! Whats the story on this?

[Dr.Rob]

If 850 was my upper end I'd look into a S&W carbine. No assembly required and often CDNN and other wholesalers will have them for a song.

[rich e]

My Bushmaster H-bar hasn't given me any troubles at all...Two-three years ago the Bushys were the cats ass...Now their old news and others are better...Yada,Yada,Yada

My Bushmaster works just fine..

Rich

[GuysModel94]

ulflyer: 5.56 mil surplus ammo is hotter than civilian .223.. could cause some chamber problems. if the receiver is stamped .223 just don't shoot 5.56 ammo in that gun. Just remember that all the label bashing is just someones opinion, buy one that fits and feels balanced.

[nipprdog]

Theres a local with a Colt Match Target Lightweight AR 15, MT6530, asking $850. I don't know squat about AR15's but am beginning to get interested.
How does the above, assuming its as nice as he says, compare in quality and price to other makes? It doesnt have a flash hider, thats all I could see different to other pics.

Bad 'thread hijack'. You should start your own thread. ;)