New Federal Guard Dog ammo line


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45Fan
January 28, 2011, 06:05 PM
I was just browsing the new products on Federal's websight and came across what looks like a newer version of their EFMJ line. The new line appears to be an attempt at improving expansion through higher velocity, while keeping over penetration to a minimum.

Has anyone seen anything about this, other than the baslistics charts on Federals webpage? I dont have any experience with the EFMJ bullets, but am always interested in new developments.

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esheato
January 28, 2011, 06:51 PM
News to me...going to look now.

Edit: interesting...bullets are light for calibers. I'm guessing fairly soft too.

beeenbag
August 1, 2011, 11:15 PM
I know this thread is a little old but I just seen the add in guns and ammo this month advertising this. The picture of an expanded round shows that the expansion happens different from a hollow point. It looks like a flat point and instead of folding outward from the tip, it looks like it is squeezed and the middle of the bullet expands outward. Looks like some type of blue filament inside the projectile too.

I would like some more info on these too if anybody has any.

Apocalypse-Now
August 1, 2011, 11:52 PM
it's simply repackaged expanding full metal jacket, which is made for markets where jhp's are illegal. don't waste your money if you don't live in one of these commie states.

RevolvingGarbage
August 2, 2011, 01:37 AM
According to Mas. Ayoob, the military has approved a version of Federals EFMJ for use in place of standard 9mm NATO FMJ.

harmon rabb
August 2, 2011, 10:00 PM
it's simply repackaged expanding full metal jacket, which is made for markets where jhp's are illegal. don't waste your money if you don't live in one of these commie states.

i believe NJ is the only jurisdiction in the US to ban jhp's. i could be wrong though.

gofastman
August 3, 2011, 02:02 AM
According to Mas. Ayoob, the military has approved a version of Federals EFMJ for use in place of standard 9mm NATO FMJ.
I doubt it.
Declaration 3 of the Hague convention of 1899:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Snowdog
August 3, 2011, 11:28 AM
Guard Dog is not just marketed to those who cannot purchase JHPs, it's also marketed to those who are concerned of over-penetration of building materials (IE bullet misses the target completely).

One of their promo videos explains that the bullet, unlike traditional JHPs, will expand in drywall, wood and other building materials. With a larger surface area, the bullet's energy should dissipate more quickly, reducing the chance of one of your slugs ending up in your neighbor's house.

Between that and the fact that clothing has no detrimental effect on expansion (as it cannot be plugged), I find the EFMJ indeed does had merit. I don't find it intrinsically inferior to JHPs in terms of performance, though it's obviously not the best choice for somewhat who wants to punch though intermediate barriers.

R.W.Dale
August 3, 2011, 01:39 PM
^^^this is also before you get into the merit of improved feeding from what may be a jhp picky handgun


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

heeler
August 3, 2011, 03:51 PM
So do you guys think the EFMJ's will be the more reliable expander?
I must say from the little bit I have read so far in a big city setting/self defence shoot they might be a safer bet.
But I am certainly no expert here at all.

Sam Cade
August 3, 2011, 06:37 PM
I doubt it.
Declaration 3 of the Hague convention of 1899:


...only applies during war-time operations against "legitimate combatants"

gofastman
August 3, 2011, 06:47 PM
So do you guys think the EFMJ's will be the more reliable expander?
Some people like the Federal EFMJ since it's a "FMJ" design that is supposed to expand. While it does decrease feeding issues somewhat due to its shape, there's also a high failure rate in the neighborhood of 20% when it comes to reliable expansion. The other negative for this bullet is that it lacks sharp edges which slice though tissue and make a larger permanent cavity than a more rounded profile which tends to push tissue out of the way only to have it return to its original shape. Some pictures of Dr. Roberts results:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Ala Tom
August 3, 2011, 07:48 PM
The performance of the Guard Dog ammo is pretty good. It holds its energy out to a hit at 25 yards - perfect for home defense. I used Federals Ballistic Calculator to check speed and energy at 25 yds. Here's what I found:

Cal_____________Wt_____Muz E_______25yd E_____25yd Spd
9mm___________105_____353________303________1140
40 S&W_________135_____432________369________1109
45 ACP_________165_____476________427_________1079
357 Sig_________125_____505________445_________1266 (P357S1)

(No GD for 357 Sig)

The GD ammo is slightly more expensive than other self defense ammo at about $26 for 20. (You don't shoot self defense ammo by the 100's unless you drive a Caddy or Mercedes.) For practice I shoot FMJ at the same weight.

(Source was web site I like to use with typical prices.)

Apocalypse-Now
August 4, 2011, 12:48 AM
The performance of the Guard Dog ammo is pretty good. It holds its energy out to a hit at 25 yards - perfect for home defense. I used Federals Ballistic Calculator to check speed and energy at 25 yds. Here's what I found:

all incorrect.

kingpin008
August 4, 2011, 12:52 AM
i believe NJ is the only jurisdiction in the US to ban jhp's. i could be wrong though.

JHP's aren't banned in NJ. Restricted, but not banned.

Snowdog
August 4, 2011, 01:14 AM
Another point to keep in mind is that the Guard Dog line is quite likely a different generation of EFMJ, using a blue polymer material and a light-for-caliber bullet weight that's simply pushed a little faster.

The original EFMJ, to my knowledge, used a typical bullet weight and a white polymer material. The XM40LP1 that I purchased in bulk have these "old style" bullets, though the two I've tested during informal Play-Do blasting expanded fine.

I'd imagine the higher velocity/lower bullet weight feature (hopefully in combination with a softer fill material) will serve to both increase the likelihood of expansion and decrease the likelihood of penetration through drywall and so forth.

Warp
August 4, 2011, 03:00 AM
JHP's aren't banned in NJ. Restricted, but not banned.

The point is that you better not use them to defend yourself. Legally what can average Joe do with a JHP in New Jersey?

bigfatdave
August 4, 2011, 03:21 AM
The point is that you better not use them to defend yourself. Legally what can average Joe do with a JHP in New Jersey? that thing being beaten might have been a horse at one point.
Seriously, the NJ expanding ammo silliness is old news, either get active and write the lawmakers or forget about it.

And EFMJ is a good thing to keep around for antiques that don't like HP ammo, I'll probably give a new twist on EFMJ a try if it turns up around me for a reasonable price, I can often find 9x19 EFMJ in 50x boxes for ~$30 at local shows, and I've found it reliable and effective on various barriers and water-jugs ... good enough to snap up when I spot it for a good price.

Warp
August 4, 2011, 03:54 AM
hat thing being beaten might have been a horse at one point.
Seriously, the NJ expanding ammo silliness is old news, either get active and write the lawmakers or forget about it.

I don't, nor would I ever, live in NJ so I have nobody to write. Somebody simply stated it only makes sense where JHP is not allowed. Somebody else said that was only NJ, so far as they knew. Then kingpin said they aren't banned in NJ, which is why I said what I did that you quoted. Follow?

Ala Tom
August 4, 2011, 08:16 AM
APOCALYPSE-NOW Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to why you think all these numbers are incorrect. They agree with Federal's data shown in ammo catalogs. I believe they are all for reasonable barrel lengths (5 inches).

Dr.Rob
August 4, 2011, 09:57 AM
That flat metplat is new, over the older roundnose shape.

The 9mm and 45ACP loads look fairly respectable to me, but I'd want to shoot a bunch of it before making it my ammo of choice.

watson
August 4, 2011, 12:12 PM
Anyone else find it disconcerting that while terrorist's and militant groups are killing women and children and planting roadside bombs. We are still blindly following a over 100 year old treaty that was drawn up because some stuffy handlebar mustache mofo considered somthing "against the rules of civilized warfare".......... heck why don't we regress our tactics further and just wear big bright red white and blue uniforms and march at our enimies in a straight line :banghead:

Resist Evil
August 4, 2011, 01:05 PM
oops

Dr.Rob
August 4, 2011, 02:33 PM
Let's try to stay ON TOPIC the Hauge accords have NOTHING TO DO with New Jersey's law.

SSN Vet
August 4, 2011, 03:05 PM
some stuffy handlebar mustache mofo considered somthing "against the rules of civilized warfare"..........

that would be Col. Blimp your refering to. :neener:

bigfatdave
August 4, 2011, 07:32 PM
http://www.federalpremium.com/images/ballistics/Bullets_Img/FP_GuardDog_bullets.jpg

That flat metplat is new, over the older roundnose shape.

Looks like the stuff I've been buying, in different colors. Maybe a bit flatter in front, but the EFMJ I've picked up has a flat tip a bit smaller than a Gold Dot cavity with a "F" on it.

Like this:http://policelink.monster.com/nfs/policelink/product_photos/0001/3889/federal_max192w.jpg?1220303709

Snowdog
August 4, 2011, 07:43 PM
BFD, I don't know about 9mm or .45acp, but I believe XM40LP1 165gr .40S&W EFMJ may still be found for $18/50 and makes fine target ammunition that can double for defensive use. My M40 seems to like it quite a bit, so that's what I keep in it.

For my M&P, I practice and carry the exact same round as well, but this from another Federal contract white box (XM40HC, 180gr HST also at $18/50). For whatever reason, my M&P40c greatly prefers 180gr fodder.

So far, .40S&W has been affordable enough for me to skip reloading. I know these days are waning though. I stocked up on both XM40LP1 and XM40HC for just this reason and I'm keeping the brass ;)

jon_in_wv
August 4, 2011, 09:30 PM
Let's try to stay ON TOPIC the Hauge accords have NOTHING TO DO with New Jersey's law.

I thought the topic was the Guard Dog bullets from Federal, not New Jersey law. Strange.

Warp
August 4, 2011, 11:38 PM
I thought the topic was the Guard Dog bullets from Federal, not New Jersey law. Strange.

What is the intended purpose/market of said bullets? Does it include locations that restrict/prohibit JHP? Is New Jersey one of these locations?

jon_in_wv
August 5, 2011, 07:48 AM
I was just browsing the new products on Federal's websight and came across what looks like a newer version of their EFMJ line. The new line appears to be an attempt at improving expansion through higher velocity, while keeping over penetration to a minimum.

Has anyone seen anything about this, other than the baslistics charts on Federals webpage? I dont have any experience with the EFMJ bullets, but am always interested in new developments.

Hmm. Velocity, overpenetration, ballistics, experience with the bullet.......NOPE. No NJ law. Besides, he is in Indiana. It seems YOU want it to be about the Laws in NJ but the OP didn't say one thing about the law of any state and how it applies to that round. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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