Feedback on GunBroker Purchase


PDA






Olympus
January 28, 2011, 10:56 PM
I need some people's thoughts on whether I should leave negative feedback on a recent GunBroker purchase. I'm on the fence because the issues were not significant enough for me to refuse to accept the gun. The gun is mechanically just as described, but the cosmetic condition had some pretty big things left out, at least in my opinion.

The gun I bought was a S&W Model 66 no-dash 2.5". These guns are hard enough to find as it is, so I don't want to return the gun for my money back. Here is exactly what the description said:
SMTH &WESSON 357 M66 NO DASH STAINLESS STEEL RB K FRAME LEW HORTON COMBAT GRIPS EXCELLENT CONDITION FIRED VERY LITTLE THE MASTER PIECE OF CONCEALED REVOLVER COMES WITH A BOX NO PAPERS DONT MISS THIS ONE SHIPPING COST $20.00 TO YOUR FFL


When I got the gun, the first thing I noticed was about 2 significant gouges in the metal on the left side of the top strap. It looks like something scraped a couple gouges out. The next thing I noticed was that the red ramp front sight is some kind of halfass homemade piece of red rubber. It's not the original ramp. Someone roughly cut a piece of red rubber and wedged in the slot. Third, the bottom of the "Lew Horton" grips has a gap big enough to put your little finger in between the bottom of the frame and the bottom of the inlet slot on the grips. The pictures in the auction conveniently didn't show any of these things.

I paid a pretty good penny for this gun and as I said, the issues aren't a deal breaker for me. But I don't think the seller accurately reflected the condition of the gun. Thoughts on whether I should leave the seller negative feedback or what.

If you enjoyed reading about "Feedback on GunBroker Purchase" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SPW1
January 28, 2011, 11:02 PM
If it isn't a deal breaker for you but you really don't feel it was very accurately described you can always leave a neutral type feedback and describe your issues in that.

Olympus
January 28, 2011, 11:11 PM
Good point. I forgot that there was an option for a neutral rating.

moby clarke
January 28, 2011, 11:55 PM
One of the things sites like GB and ebay want from sellers is accurate info when it comes to condition. While you may still keep the gun, that is your prerogative, I would leave negative fb and note exactly the major problems you had with the description of the gun. Nothing wrong with that.

Oyeboten
January 29, 2011, 12:00 AM
Hi Olympus,


Just call the Seller and be nice about it...


Give him a chance to tell his side of it.

Maybe he was trying to slip one past...maybe he was in denial, maybe he is old and has poor vision, was in a hurry, who knows?


I won a Revolver a few weeks ago, something I bid on while I was way over tired, and, the images were crappy, and, it was also mis-listed.

Seller had it as an S&W 'Chief Special" in original Nickle finish.

After winning, I looked at the images better, realized it was old Nickle over Factory Nickle as well as being in .38 S&W and hence was an S&W "Terrier" and not a Chief's Special.


I called the Seller, and, told him I absolutely intend to follow through with my pay as per the Auction close, or, according to whatever he requires of me...but, that in my haste, and possibly his, there were some issues maybe which were worth discussing a moment.

He got the Revolver, looked at it as we were on the phone, said "Yup! You are right! it is an old Nickle on top of Factory Nickel, and, is not a Chief Special, so..hmmmm...how 'bout just send like 2/3rds of what you won it for, and, everyone's happy...or, we can skip it, no harm, no foul, I had mis-described it and you are free to pass if you like."

I said, "Sir you are a Gentleman"...and, I sent the dough.


Now, it might have gone not so well, too, but, it is always worth trying, and, being respectful and supportive of the Seller in how one goes about communicating about the item, makes all the difference in the World.

People can goof, and, they are often happy to make things right if allowed to do so without being accused or abused or cornered about it.

mdThanatos
January 29, 2011, 12:39 AM
Was there an inspection period on the auction? If there was and it hasn't expired, contact the seller and see what he says like Oye said. Based upon his response I think you will have a better idea as to what feedback to leave. Based on the description you posted, to me it doesn't sound like it is in "Excellent" condition.

Most sellers post "Ask questions before bidding" and the like but contact him and give him a chance to set it right.

Olympus
January 29, 2011, 10:25 AM
I've took some pictures so everyone could see what I was talking about. I plan on emailing them to the seller and asking ***? Not really ***, but you know what I mean. The auction lists the inspection time as "unspecified". I took the "Lew Horton" grips off and put on a set of Ahrend's grips that I had and the fit is MUCH better on the Ahrends. The big gap at the bottom of the frame isn't there. I'm beginning to think the grips are a knockoff set.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy151/brownscustomgrips/P1290034.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy151/brownscustomgrips/P1290036.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy151/brownscustomgrips/P1290037.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy151/brownscustomgrips/P1290038.jpg

mbogo
January 29, 2011, 10:34 AM
Contact the seller directly first and express your concerns. His initial reaction will tell you much about whether he was trying to misrepresent the gun. He may have been flipping the gun for a quick profit and did not check it quite as thoroughly as he should have.

If he is unwilling to work with you, go ahead and leave him negative feedback; don't call him a crook, but state that the gun had several significant defects that were not revealed.

mbogo

sansone
January 29, 2011, 11:39 AM
If it isn't a deal breaker for you but you really don't feel it was very accurately described you can always leave a neutral type feedback and describe your issues in that.
good advice, give a fair description of what disappointed you. I think B or C is neutral

Flint Ridge
January 29, 2011, 12:07 PM
Complain - get your cash back, I'd never be happy with it.

Oh the ramp, I can deal with that. The grips can be replaced - are they original?

But the chunks missing from the frame - Deal Breaker - Nothing about that is Excellent.

Oh, and depending upon the actual age of the no dash - where are the SS sights?

Olympus
January 29, 2011, 05:02 PM
As someone mentioned, I emailed the seller and attached the pictures. There may be a possibility that he would refund a portion of sale to make up for the condition. No response.

I can deal with the ramp too until I look down the sight. It's extremely rough along the edges. Makes me cringe every time I look down the sights.

The grips can be replaced...at an additional cost. The description says they are Lew Horton combat grips. If that's the case, they're the worst fitting grips I've seen.

As for the SS sights, those came on the very first run of M66s. This one was manufactured in 1976, which was after they stopped the SS sights. I called S&W and verified that the SN fell before the -1 models.

tcc722
January 29, 2011, 05:30 PM
That is not what I would consider excellent condition, and I would not be happy with the description. The gouges should have been disclosed. Depending on the response from the seller, he would be getting either negative, or neutral feedback from me. I read feedback before I buy on GB. If he plans on doing a lot of business on GB, I would hope that he would take his feedback seriously, and make this right. Also, if you leave honest feedback, you may be protecting the next potential buyer.

walker944
January 29, 2011, 05:31 PM
Were there no pics included with the auction description? The pictures (if of reasonable quality) usually say more than the description wording, when it comes to the condition.

walker944
January 29, 2011, 05:34 PM
Just answered my own question, by reading the original post a little more carefully...

The OP Stated: "The pictures in the auction conveniently didn't show any of these things."

Based on this alone, it appears to my skeptical mind, that the seller was intentionally trying to be deceptive.

Olympus
January 29, 2011, 07:56 PM
I believe the seller was intentionally being deceptive as well. Not deceptive enough for me to return the gun, but deceptive enough that the condition would have affected the price that I paid for gun.

I will give the seller until Monday to respond to my email. If no response by then, I think everyone would agree that neutral, probably negative, feedback will be left.

walker944
January 30, 2011, 02:09 AM
If no response in a more than reasonable period of time, I'd slam him with a negative feedback. Just understand that he can hit you with a negative too; so, be prepared to deal with that. Nuetral is a more civil, polite way of complaining; but to me this kind of blatant deception deserves the full measure of complaint. I actually tried to find the Completed aution you cite, but got no match on the wording you posted. I was curious about what photos he posted, and how many feedbacks he's get, etc....

Oyeboten
January 30, 2011, 02:42 AM
Hi Olympus,


You can get the Seller's contact info and Telephone Number right there on the Auction Page, top left.

Call him up and in a nice way, discuss this.


Those are some weird deficits there on the top strap.

I do not know what those are from, but, they are conspicuous enough to be seriously hard to miss or over look.


This is a Stainless Steel Revolver?



The Seller might be old and have poor eyesight and or not be very smart or experienced as well.


A Revolver of that make and model, when presented as being 'excellent' really does have to live up to those terms with no hesitation or compromise, and, clearly, this one does not.


I have found in my limited experience so far, on Gunbroker or on Auctionarms, that there are simply many kinds of Sellers, and, Sellers of quite varied degrees of intelligence and Character.


Some are definitely cheats or are trying to get away with mis-representing conditiuon or other important details.


Usually though, when disappointment is poised to occur or has occurred, it will turn out they are just not very bright and do not know there is more to the subject, or they do not know enough to really examione and then describe the Arm well or to highlight intentionally sought out deficits when present, so as to inform a potential buyer with specific close up images and text-mentions in the Listing, of whatever deficits are there.

If I ever end up selling on an Auction Site, I have sure learned a lot about it from admiring the listings of Sellers who are brutally honest and forthright and thorough, and, from those who are not.

Cosmoline
January 30, 2011, 02:59 AM
The most important piece of information is missing--what were the photos the seller attached to the auction? GB is all about the photos.

Onward Allusion
January 30, 2011, 03:20 AM
Olympus (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=72755)
I've took some pictures so everyone could see what I was talking about. I plan on emailing them to the seller and asking ***? Not really ***, but you know what I mean. The auction lists the inspection time as "unspecified". I took the "Lew Horton" grips off and put on a set of Ahrend's grips that I had and the fit is MUCH better on the Ahrends. The big gap at the bottom of the frame isn't there. I'm beginning to think the grips are a knockoff set.

I guess a lot of it depends on what you paid for it. The ramp and grips would be a minor annoyance, but the gouges would be a deal breaker. If you can't get the seller to refund a bit of the purchase price, I would recommend leaving negative FB.

sw282
January 30, 2011, 07:10 AM
l recently gave a seller a 'D' rating for a M 19 on GB. The ad said 97% gun. Also said ASIS. l usually dont buy asis. lt was exactly what l wanted tho. So l emailed the guy and asked him to define 97%. Said it had a slight turn ring and a few micro scratches.Also he liked it so much he almost kept it for himself. l took his word and won the gun. Upon arrival l noticed major bluing missing at the muzzle. Flecks of rust on the bottom of the trigger guard. A good deal of play at lockup too. He purposely misled me w/his pix, description, and email. l did not have a lot of money in it. l did not bother calling him. No need to. He had LIED. lf the future l plan to be more careful and not break my own rules. Esp buying ASIS

madcratebuilder
January 30, 2011, 07:55 AM
The most important piece of information is missing--what were the photos the seller attached to the auction? GB is all about the photos.
+1000

Did this seller show pic's hiding this damage? If so he's a crook. The revolver appears to have been polished on a buffing wheel, I can see traces of compound. The front sight insert and grips can be fixed, they frame damage can not.

Photo's are everything when buying sight unseen. If the seller does not show every inch of the gun then I figure he's hiding something. Less than 100% A+ feedback and I well pass, more matter how good of deal.

Olympus
January 30, 2011, 11:07 AM
Here is the link to the completed auction. It has the price that I paid for the gun and the pictures that the seller posted.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=209621755

woad_yurt
January 30, 2011, 01:18 PM
That revolver isn't "excellent," not even close.

Even in the listing, the screws' heads are messed up and I doubt that it's coincidence that the seller didn't show the gouges in his/her lpictures. Dontcha just love that convenient glare right in the exact place where the gouges are? I looked at the sellers completed auctions and it appears that his/her ability to shoot clear, close-up photos comes and goes. I recently bought a base-sticker-price bobbed Model 64 for around $225 from AIM or J&G, I forget which, and it was in better condition than this one.*

For that price, I'd want my money back. My feedback would depend upon the seller's reaction to my demand for a refund. Please keep us posted on developments, ok?

* It really is in beautiful shape. I just wanted a bedroom gun for cheap and was very surprised at how nice it was. I didn't expect anything near as good.

wild willy
January 30, 2011, 01:35 PM
I'd demand my money back.The better sellers on G.B. always show closeups of the defects this guy hid that gouge and front site

Olympus
January 30, 2011, 01:38 PM
Right before Christmas my home was burglarized and the exact gun was stolen. The gun was a no-dash 66 that I got from my father in law who had the gun for 30 years. It had a lot of sentimental value to me. So it's been my mission since the gun was stolen to replace it with another no-dash 66. I've found several -1s and higher, but never a no-dash. If it were any other gun, I would definitely be wanting to return it for a refund. But if I return this one, who knows when I'll ever find another no-dash with the box for sale. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

therewolf
January 30, 2011, 01:39 PM
When I read GB's feedback, I am much more impressed with objective

descriptions, and a B-thru D rating, than I am by "This guy is a crook" and an F

rating.

IMO, the guy screwed ya, because those defects should have shown up in

normal photos.

If you don't get satisfaction, file a sub par feedback. But don't do it in a

way which makes you look like the bad guy.

JDGray
January 30, 2011, 01:56 PM
When I sell a gun online, I go out of my way to show any and all defects. The last thing I want is to get a call or negative public feedback, calling me a theif!

I just purchased a Kahr 9mm mag off GB, it was listed as "Factory New", the price was right so I hit the Buy now button. When it shows up, it was clearly used, and the follower was missing the metal hold open button. I emailed the seller wanting my money back, in a polite tone, and he PPal'd most of the money back, and told me to keep the junk mag! He said he didn't appreciate my attitude, and that I wouldn't have been happy with a new one in the factory wrapper. This told me he was aware of the defect, and was just unloading the used mag. We did leave each other good feedback, but I sure didn't want to. He made it right with me, so all was good. GB CS does want you to try to work it out with the other party before leaving anything but a A+ feedback.

Good luck with your misfortune, hopefully he will refund you some funds, or take it back.

Onward Allusion
January 30, 2011, 02:07 PM
Olympus
Here is the link to the completed auction. It has the price that I paid for the gun and the pictures that the seller posted.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=209621755


I want to point out something that may not be obvious. The seller is NOT a regular merchant (i.e. SELLER). The seller looks to be a joe-blow collector / enthuasist that is mostly a BUYER on GB. Based on personal experience, I would almost never recommend purchasing from someone like that. These types may have good intentions and are honest people overall - BUT they are NOT merchants. Most joe-blows don't know the difference between Mint, Excellent, and Fine.

PRM
January 30, 2011, 02:24 PM
I just bought a gun on Gunbroker ~ arrived not as described. I contacted the seller and sent him an email with my concerns plus pics.

The seller had a business and was just starting to sell on GB. Said an employee listed the gun and agreed it was not correct in the description. I believe the guy was on the up and up. He refunded my money plus shipping, paid for the return shipping and added an additional $30 for my trouble.

We left each other good feedback, and I would definitely buy from him again. I would call the seller and see what they said.

The ramp can be repaired fairly easy. Grips... I would have issues with the frame. The gouges are shown in pic 8 of the listing but, nothing is mentioned in the listing. I would not call it excellent by any means. Personally, that would bother me every time I looked at it. You may not be that picky.

Olympus
January 30, 2011, 02:32 PM
I am definitely that picky. But it comes down to the fact that there are a limited supply of no-dash 66s, so what is a guy supposed to do? Fight it out and return the gun for a refund to wait years and possibly not a gun that's in even worse condition? I don't think trying to return the gun is going to be an option for me. I may just have to take it on the chin and see if I can send the gun back to S&W to see if the gouges can be polished out. I can replace the grips and the front sight.

My main question was whether I should leave the guy negative feedback based on the discrepancy between the description and the actual item.

And as someone already mentioned, the seller is not an actual business. It's an individual.

ExMachina
January 30, 2011, 07:00 PM
Yikes. I don't think those are just gouges on the top strap. Unless that is a trick of the lighting, the top trap looks physically deformed which could mean that it sustained a significant impact. That could explain the front sight too, as a top-side impact could also have knocked out the original insert--this is all speculation but the two together make sense.

I agree that the seller went to pains to avoid commenting/showing the defects.

Olympus
January 30, 2011, 07:24 PM
Someone else had mentioned the possibility of a bent top strap to me just now. I've looked at the gun really close and the surface of the top strap is indeed bent down. But if you sight down the top strap like you would an arrow, the surface of the strap appears to be bent down, but the bottom edge of the top strap appears to be straight.

But this has made me uneasy enough that I will be taking the gun to a reputation gunsmith to get a qualified opinion. And if it is indeed bent, I will try to get documentation from the gunsmith to use if the return deal goes south.

sw282
January 30, 2011, 07:32 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207230886


Heres the gun l gave a "D" rating on. Clearly from dark pix plus glare it is impossible to see a 1/2'' of blueing missing at muzzle. There are no images of bottom of trigger guard. Have not decided what do w/gun yet. l am in it at 440 now.
My gun guy has offered to put it on consignment or list it on GB for $20 plus their fees and 20 to transfer. ln order for me to get my money back it would have to sell for $500. lts not a $500 gun

mdThanatos
January 30, 2011, 08:34 PM
Pictures numbered 1, 3, and 8 on the official auction do show less than excellent condition. However having seen the pictures you posted Olympus I knew what I was looking for and may have missed the dings in his pictures. Picture number 1 does also show that it may be bent on the top strap as well, to me anyway. I still do not think of that as being excellent condition and hope you can get this resolved.

Jesse Heywood
January 30, 2011, 09:33 PM
If he doesn't make this right, file a fraud report.
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudClaimProcess.aspx

nofishbob
January 30, 2011, 10:33 PM
Since the top of the top strap is dished out in the area of the gouges, yet the bottom of the top strap is still straight, I think that the gouges were originally deeper, and an effort was made to grind them out.

When the amount of metal to be removed became obvious, the grinding was stopped, leaving both the uneven top strap and the bottom of the gouges.

I would have had a hard time seeing these defects in the pictures from the seller.

This is not an "Excellent" gun.

Good luck!

Bob

clem
January 30, 2011, 11:06 PM
The chunks missing from the frame, would give me a case of the ass.
That guy is a thief, no way is that revolver in "excellent" shape/condition or what ever.

Get your money back.:fire:

The frame problem bothers me.:eek:

gearhead
January 30, 2011, 11:58 PM
In my opinion, even if you keep this specimen you'll still continue your search. Probably not as comprehensively as you've been searching for the past month or so, but I don't think you see this one as a suitable replacement.

AKElroy
January 31, 2011, 12:18 AM
If it were me, for that price, it would be going back. It does look like it was dropped, topstrap & site badly damaged, and the grinder taken to it to smooth it out. Poorly done. no way to put metal back, my friend. Get your cash & keep looking. Post here for a WTB for your no-dash.

I commend your nostagia, but a gun where you've been had would hold none of it for me.

Olympus
January 31, 2011, 11:32 AM
I will be giving the seller a call to return the gun. I'll keep everyone posted. As someone pointed out, I'm not ever going to be 100% satisfied with this particular gun. As bad as I hate to send it back for fear of not finding another replacement, I think that's just the way it's going to have to go.

teumessian_fox
January 31, 2011, 11:35 AM
I paid a pretty good penny for this gun

How much is a "pretty penny?"

If you paid premium price, then you definitely got burned. Get your money back or leave him the worst possible feedback. That gun is in terrible shape compared to the seller's description.

As bad as I hate to send it back for fear of not finding another replacement, I think that's just the way it's going to have to go.

And you'll probably be responsible for the shipping charges. If you're an FFL and can use the PO that might not be so bad, but otherwise it gets kind of pricey.

Olympus
January 31, 2011, 11:38 AM
I paid $740 for the gun, $30 shipping from an FFL, and $15 for the FFL fee on my end. So I've got $785 in the gun.

teumessian_fox
January 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
I paid $740 for the gun, $30 shipping from an FFL, and $15 for the FFL fee on my end. So I've got $785 in the gun.


That's definitely a premium price.

And I just looked at the pictures he posted on GB. He definitely deliberately crafted the poses so as to hide the gun's defects. Nobody is so stupid as to think those tractor marks in your gun are insignificant.

You got burned.

Olympus
January 31, 2011, 02:13 PM
I finally received a response from the seller. Quoted in entirety: HI SORRY YOU NOT HAPPY WITH THE GUN THIS AUSED GUN AND I HAD PICTURES ON BOTH SIDES AND IT 2WAS SOLD AS IS



And my return response in entirety:
The pictures conveniently didn't show the damaged areas and it is my belief that
they were deliberately taken to hide the damage. The auction described the gun
as in excellent condition, and it is far from that. I have also taken the gun
to a gunsmith who has verified that the gouges in the metal have actually bent
the top strap of the gun, compromising the metal and making it potentially
unsafe for use. I am contacting you as a courtesy to facilitate the refund and
return of this gun. If you are unwilling to work with me, I will be forced to
leave negative feedback AND file a fraud claim with Gun Broker. With the
pictures I have taken of the damage and documentation I have from the gunsmith,
I have more than enough for a strong fraud case. I'm requesting that you work
with me on returning the gun. I would be more than happy to discuss this over
the phone.

epijunkie67
January 31, 2011, 03:10 PM
Pretty perfect response on your part. I think this guy knows he sold you a turkey and doesn't want it back.

teumessian_fox
January 31, 2011, 05:27 PM
HI SORRY YOU NOT HAPPY WITH THE GUN THIS AUSED GUN AND I HAD PICTURES ON BOTH SIDES AND IT 2WAS SOLD AS IS


What a response! His name "goober" by any chance?

I checked his feedback. Most of it as a buyer but no all of it. He got an 'F' rating, but the rest are positive.

I hope you have some recourse via gunbroker.

Sniper X
January 31, 2011, 05:35 PM
What I notice since I use to refinish metal, is the wavy edge of the top strap near the gouges. To me, this indicates that someone tried to polish out the gouges. The gouges were obviously very bad, even worse that they look now to make someone try to polish them out and get as far as they did and give up when they noticed how much metal had needed to be taken off to get them as they are now. In my opinion, they must have been really bad! Maybe even bad enough to interfere with the integrity of the strength of the top strap! In the GB pics, notice the two pics of the gun from the back liking down the side. In the pics it is easy to see how straight the right side is as compared to the left side.

mes227
January 31, 2011, 05:37 PM
Honest feedback is important to making the system work. And honesty is always a good response.

Olympus
January 31, 2011, 05:58 PM
I emailed the pictures to S&W, so we'll see what they say. I haven't received a response from the last reply to the seller.

I checked Gun Broker and they have a guarantee up to $500 with a $100 deductible. I can't file a fraud claim until after 30 days from the end of the auction. I'm unsure why they make you wait that long.

What a response! His name "goober" by any chance?


No, but I'm pretty sure he's foreign. The phone number listed on the Gun Broker contact page is for his wife's cell phone. Left a couple messages but haven't gotten a call back.

OldCavSoldier
January 31, 2011, 09:04 PM
I think the revolver was dropped and that is what dinged the top strap. M66 no dash revolvers are a little difficult to find, but not impossible, if you are patient. Personally, I would return the piece, for several reasons. With it having been dropped, and then a buffing being attempted, I would not trust the true-ness of lock-up or cylinder revolution. A good set of grips should fit the frame with ZERO gap, anywhere. The drop of the revolver may have done more than just ding the top strap. Good luck!

Olympus
January 31, 2011, 10:32 PM
I'm trying to work out a return on the gun, but it doesn't look like the seller is willing to play ball.

Black Butte
January 31, 2011, 10:56 PM
That gun is in not in "excellent" condition. Give the seller a chance to make it right with either a partial refund or a full return. Make it clear to him that he will be helping himself by keeping his feedback clean. If the seller refuses to be reasonable, then give future bidders a chance to steer clear of this cheat by giving him an "F" rating.

mdThanatos
January 31, 2011, 11:05 PM
If he won't accept the gun back or make something better in your favor, negative it is.

sw282
January 31, 2011, 11:42 PM
0ly---l can barely see the damage in the GB pix on the top strap and site. l had to blow them up to 400% tho. Even then l had to HUNT for the dings. l will guess the site is original. lt looks as if the damage on the pistol came from being dropped on a rough surface, like a sidewalk or pavement. l believe the pix were purposely taken so as NOT to show damage

Onward Allusion
January 31, 2011, 11:55 PM
Gunbroker covers up to $500 with (I think) a $100 deductible. This particular case would appear to fall under the category of disputed condition - harder to claim.

For me, the two of times on GB where there was significant disparity between description and actual condition upon receipt was with individuals and not regular merchants. This would lead me to believe that individuals selling on GB are more likely to stretch the truth than merchants who are in the business of selling guns.

mr.trooper
February 1, 2011, 12:28 AM
I had a similar issue with a revolver on GB - description said "timing may be off a bit" ... By that apparently they meant that 4 of the 6 cylinders are wildly out of alignment. :rolleyes:

wep45
February 1, 2011, 12:45 AM
the sellers description said "excellent '. The pictures sure did not.
you fell in love with a dream and bought a pig in a poke "as is".
looks like you got caught up in a bidding war that you had to win.
a life lesson learned. Move on.

woad_yurt
February 1, 2011, 09:21 AM
Since the listing said that payment must be by money order or certified check, I'm assuming that you mailed the money to the weasel. Let him know that you will make a mail fraud complaint to the Inspector General. They take mail fraud very, very seriously and definitely will pursue the matter. In this country, no other law enforcement agency comes close to the Postal Inspectors' arrest and conviction rate. $700+ is definitely enough money to get them interested.

Regarding the "as is," the seller said that the gun was in "excellent" condition. Don't think that "as is" means that you are automatically stuck with it. "As is" means nothing if the seller misrepresents an item, which this guy clearly did. "As is" only holds water if the buyer has had a chance to look over the item before buying it. All you had to go on was the seller's description, which was wildly inaccurate.

I had this happen to me once. After being blown off by the seller, I simply had my dealer send the gun back to the return address and informed my dealer to refuse any package from them if it they sent it back. I had to eat the return shipping costs but did get the purchase price back when I used the threat of a mail fraud complaint. If they have the gun back, they can't keep the money, too. Don't let them know it's on the way back, though, or they may refuse delivery. All in all, from beginning to end, it took me 3 months or so to get the money back.

Olympus
February 1, 2011, 09:51 AM
Good thinking on the mail fraud claim. I will be following up with that as well. Still no response from the seller.

Olympus
February 1, 2011, 01:33 PM
Here is the response I received from the seller. Quoted in entirety:

PICTURE#8 CLEARLY SHOW THOSE TWO LITTLE DINGS AND THE GUN IIS IN PERFECT WORKING ORDER SO THATS ALL IM GOING TO SAY SO STOP HERRESING ME AND DO NOT CALL THAT PHONE # AGAIN THATS MY X # ALSO DO NOT WRITE IM BLOCKING YOUR EMAIL

ExMachina
February 1, 2011, 03:14 PM
Sorry to hear how this is going. We all take risks when buying over the internet--especially when private sellers are concerned. Sometimes we get burned. Welcome to the club :fire:

Speaking from limited experience, the mail fraud claim--while sounding threatening-- will yield you few results in the case of a private seller. At this point, small claims court would be the only avenue that might get you what you want (and even then, I'm not sure it's an open and shut case since the sell is right in that the dings ARE pictured. yeah, he's a slime ball but he's not without a legal defence)

My inclination (since it's not my money, right?) would be to let it go and chalk it up to experience. Next time, simply realize that if you don't want to accept the transfer, you don't have to.

I hate stories like this :(

Olympus
February 1, 2011, 04:08 PM
Combine this with the fact that my first no-dash 66 was stolen and I'm about at the end of my wits.

nofishbob
February 1, 2011, 04:18 PM
This seller, due to his aggressive and semi-literate responses to your totally polite and reasonable inquiries, should be the poster boy for the kind of sellers that Gunbroker wants to eliminate.

Too many more like him and who would ever want to take a chance with an auction?

I sure hope that you can get some satisfaction, now that it is clear that the seller is dishonest and will not make things right.

Bob

CoRoMo
February 1, 2011, 04:24 PM
I've been following your thread here without posting. I sort of feel for both parties, or at least initially I did. I figured that the seller was just a normal guy and didn't realize that using the word 'Excellent' bound the transaction to a standardized grading system. He thinks it is excellent, but it obviously doesn't meet the NRA Condition Grading. I can forgive him for that.

I've sold guns on GunBroker and have steered very clear of those grading terms because I didn't want to get into this very situation and get bad feedback. I've also bought guns that were described as having no issues whatsoever, just to find a little spec somewhere on them that I wish would have been recognized by the seller in the description. I give the other party as much benefit of the doubt as I hope they give me.

But... given his absolute lack of compassion to your requests, you are justified in giving him negative feedback. He's not doing a good job of selling his guns and people need a little heads-up before buying anything from him in the future. If he wants to get premium prices for his guns through GunBroker, he has to do better than this.

Oyeboten
February 1, 2011, 04:31 PM
Hi Olympus,



Image No. 8 in the listing -


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=209621755



Actually shows the 'low' area of the left Top-Strap, and the gouges in that area, fairly well.

But, it would be easy to miss it, especially if one were feeling enthusiasm.

I think the Seller should refund your Money, and, accept the Revolver being returned.


Trust in your own good fate - believe me, you will find another Revolver of the same Model, and, one which is 'right' and which will be a basis for good feelings and fun and real satisfaction and pride, without compromise.

Don't settle for less.



Edit - sorry, I just wrote the above from the bottom of page 1, and, did not notice there were two more pages to go.


Seller was dis-honest for not emphacising in dedicated images and in text, the defects of the Revolver in the listing, and, by showing them only slightly, in an incidental way, I believe he was pre-emptively strategising his position to refuse negotation after a sale, once the buyer sees the Revolver in real life, and notices the magnitude of the defects.


Very sorry this happened to you.


If it were me, and, if unable to find satiusfaction in attempting further actions with or against the Seller, I would do one of two things -


Throw it into a River, or give it away, and free my head of the clutter and frustration which it has brought.

Or...

Find a Gunsmith or Machinist who does 'Metal Spray', or, Tig Welding, and, have the Top Strap area built 'up', using as close an Alloy as possible to that of the Frame, or, if 'TIG', then an identical Alloy ( cut into slender 'sticks' from a scrap/condemned Frame of same composition) , and, getting this area re-profiled, where, done right, it could be actually undetectible there-after.

oneounceload
February 1, 2011, 04:59 PM
Most folks post pics with their item - did you not have any to see first or ask for more?

Second, most dealers are willing to give folks a 3-day non-firing inspection - did he not offer that?

Sounds like both parties "oopsed" somewhat here - it happened to me on a shotgun I bought - I checked everything, the gun was as described, except one descriptor - the LOP - wasn't mentioned and I forgot to ask, and when it came in, it was about an inch too short - and it already had a pad and spacer. It became the wife's gun until she decided she wanted something else.

The rule is Caveat Emptor - sorry to hear he won't do anything about it.

Olympus
February 1, 2011, 04:59 PM
I appreciate all the support from everyone. I have emailed S&W with plenty of pictures and I'm waiting for a response to see if it is something that can be fixed or at least made to look less significant.

If I don't hear anything from Smith, I've had several members PM me with referrals to gunsmiths who may be able to make this better.

But you're right, I either need to get rid of this ugly reminder or have it fixed to where I don't notice it as much.

AKElroy
February 1, 2011, 09:33 PM
Send it back to S&W. I have seen them return guns looking brand new. They will of course charge, but I have seen amazing work on really rough guns posted on THR.

Black Butte
February 2, 2011, 12:44 AM
If there are obvious imperfections, as there were here, the seller has a duty to make the buyer aware of them. That means specifically pointing them out, and not merely calling the revolver "excellent" with photographs that inadequately show the condition of the gun.

In this case, neither the description nor the photos conveyed a fair assessment of the revolver's condition. I would simply send the revolver back to the seller by certified mail, then submit a claim for the purchase amount with a collection agency. The collection agency will then harass him and ruin his credit score. This guy slapped you in the face. It's time to slap back.

MartinS
February 2, 2011, 01:05 AM
Have you taken any pictures of the top strap with a straight edge on it?
That frame sure looks totalled. Contact the States Attorney in the seller's state and tell them he sold you a defective and dangerous item. Find out what the laws are in the seller's state, your state and Federal and if you ever communicate with the seller again refer to them specifically. Let him know you are not going anywhere, you will post the top strap photo (with straight edge) and your experience with him in every gunboard and that you will cut your nose off to spite your face, that you will spend thousands of dollars and hours to get him to do what is right.

gbw
February 2, 2011, 01:45 AM
The seller is surely dishonest and the OP was cheated. I hope he's is able to recover from the seller. I sure wouldn't bet on it.

Just one opinion, I think harrassing the seller and leaving very negative feedback are about the only satisfactions OP will get.

The other recovery options - GunBroker, small claims, fraud, etc., look like very long shots.

The fact is the OP made a risky bet and lost. He purchased a high dollar gun, sight unseen, evidently based on not too good photos (they aren't available any longer), in a clearly stated as-is mail order auction. It's a recipe to be cheated.

I doubt anyone in authority is gonna get too worked up about this, including GB. Hope I'm wrong.

Never purchase AS-IS. If a seller won't stand behind his product there is a reason. Always check for a long history of favorable feedback. Call the seller first, get a feel.

Otherwise pass. There will always be another deal.

clem
February 2, 2011, 10:05 AM
The seller is a liar and a thief and his conduct should be addressed accordingly, and action taken.

Don't let this maggot get away with this!

Olympus
February 2, 2011, 11:00 AM
I don't want to send the gun back to him by certified mail because then I'd be out the money AND the gun.

I took the gun to a qualified gunsmith. He agreed that the gun was likely dropped on the top strap. He also agreed that some has attempted to blend the metal to make the gouges less severe looking. He said that is why the top strap looks bent, because they took down the metal on the top in just that one area instead of evenly taking away metal along the whole length. The gunsmith said he would have no issues shooting full power .357 loads if the gun were his. He said "The spots ain't real pretty, but it's still a damn nice gun." I'm still waiting on S&W to get back with me about the pictures I sent to see if they can do something about it. If they can't, I will explore some other recommendations.

It's my opinion that if a person has to blow up a picture to 400% in order to see damage, the person taking the picture is deliberately trying to hide the condition. I think if I lived even remotely close to Florida, I'd pay the seller a personal visit. In my opinion, this guy is on the same level as the scumbag that stole my other 66. The seller is just as much of a thief as the other guy in my opinion.

I've reserved a table at a gun show this coming weekend, so I'll probably take the gun and set it out for sale. Now anytime I look at the gun, I think about that scumbag seller and it makes me want to do not-so-high-road things. Lesson learned and more than likely my last Gun Broker purchase for a very long time. If I can't find it locally, I probably don't need it that bad anyway.

I forgot to mention that I opened a support claim with Gun Broker about this transaction. I just received this response from Gun Broker support:

Below is the communication we forwarded to the seller. The seller is only obligated to forward a refund for the selling price of the item, not the shipping fees or other fees associated with the transaction. We would recommend forwarding the item in a trackable manner and packed securely to eliminate the possibility of shipping damage.
Pertaining to Item #209621755 - Smith & Wesson 66 357 No Dash 2-1/2 Brl SS 1975

The winning bidder of this auction has contacted us for assistance. The winning bidder is not pleased with the condition of the item received and has contacted you in order to return the item and receive a refund. Your auction does not specify No Returns, therefore, if the winning bidder is not pleased with the item, they are able to return the item to you for a full selling price refund.

When you receive the item from the winning bidder, you will need to issue a selling price refund promptly to the winning bidder.

Thank you.

tcc722
February 2, 2011, 11:10 AM
It should sell at a gun show, and hopefully you can get most of your money back. I wouldn't give up on GB. Only buy guns that have an inspection period, not as-is. You probably found one of the few bad apples on GB. I would think most people are on the up and up. Just don't forget to leave the guy a 'F' feedback with details. This will protect the next person, as well as ruin him as a seller.

woad_yurt
February 2, 2011, 11:49 AM
Again:

Send it back, unannounced, to his dealer. Be sure to include his contact info in the package. Once you're sure it's in transit, instruct your dealer to refuse any return delivery. Someone on the receiving end will accept delivery, open the package and call him. Then the guy will have his gun and your money. He can't keep both and he can't force anyone to accept delivery of the gun. If he refuses to cough up the cash, inform the postal authorities.

To the USPS:
"I sent it back because it was defective. He's got his gun back and he's still keeping my money...."

As long as you have the gun, it's possible to view the situation as a mere, subjective difference of opinion. If he has both the gun and your money, you're an out-and-out victim. Also, if he's reluctant to pick it up at the dealer's, he'll have a grumbling and very alienated local gun dealer to contend with on his end. One doesn't want to be known as a problem child in a town of only 20,000 (Naples, FL,) his home town.

Olympus
February 2, 2011, 11:57 AM
I understand the theory. But happens when the guy goes and just picks up the gun and doesn't send the refund? He's got the gun and the money and I'm the one trying to navigate the system and bust my butt to get someone to force the seller to send the money. I can just imagine that the process will be a cluster-eff.

woad_yurt
February 2, 2011, 12:32 PM
That's when the mail fraud complaint comes into play. Do you think the dealer on his end wants postal inpectors nosing around? How much does a lawyer cost these days, one who deals with federal stuff? Just asking for advice, let's say a couple of billable hours, would probably cost the seller more than he got for the gun.

Olympus
February 2, 2011, 04:39 PM
woad_yurt - I will follow up with you this afternoon. Thanks!

oldbear
February 2, 2011, 04:39 PM
Sir, you are kinder than I am. The difference in condition would have been a deal breaker for me if I, [QUOTE] I paid a pretty good penny for this gun [/QUOTE. You expected rightly so a revolver in much better condition than you received.

I might be temped to return it to the seller and request a full refund.

Best of luck what ever you do.

Olympus
February 2, 2011, 04:46 PM
That's exactly what I want to do. However, based on the way this guy has behaved so far, I'm a little hesitant to send it back for fear that he'll take the gun back and never give me the refund.

Black Butte
February 2, 2011, 08:54 PM
I'm a little hesitant to send it back for fear that he'll take the gun back and never give me the refund.

If you don't send the gun back, he wins. Send the gun back to his FFL with proof of mailing. I believe the FFL has to log it into his book. Then, if he doesn't refund your money, file with Postal Inspector, collection agency, GunBroker, small claims court, bad feed back, demand letter from attorney, etc. Whatever it takes. Make his life miserable until he refunds your purchase price.

His credit will be shot, his FFL will no longer deal with him, his GunBroker reputation will be tarnished, and he'll have the aggravation of dealing with legal issues. At this point it will make more sense for him to give your money back and try to resell his revolver to someone else.

In the future, if an item is misrepresented like this, don't accept it. Do not take legal possession by having your FFL do the transfer, but rather have your FFL send it back to the shipper.

Olympus
February 2, 2011, 09:14 PM
I have already gone ahead with the GunBroker process. I just have a feeling that this guy doesn't give a crap about his credit. It's probably already shot anyway. I'm going to have to give this mail fraud claim thing a little bit of thought.

Jesse Heywood
February 3, 2011, 04:47 AM
Let GunBroker deal with him. They have far more muscle than you do. He doesn't want to lose access to the best gun auction on the net.

teumessian_fox
February 3, 2011, 10:20 AM
I'm going to have to give this mail fraud claim thing a little bit of thought.


Everything I've read about gun buyers getting burned and turning to the PO for help has always been a negative. Postal Inspectors a) don't really care and b) won't get involved unless it's a much larger amount of money. And I've read this from actual people who posted their experiences.

Best of luck, but don't get your hopes up.

ExMachina
February 3, 2011, 10:39 AM
I've personally filed a mail fraud complaint against a guy who took money for a product never delivered (and I wasn't the only one to file against this guy).

Result?--> absolutely.nothing.happened

Olympus
February 3, 2011, 11:04 AM
That's exactly why I'm hesitant. My experience with postal employees has not been the best. They can hardly deliver my mail correctly, much less handle a mail fraud claim. I'm not going to go too much into my views on postal employees, but the ones in my city are about on the same level as the DMV employees. They work at their own pace and don't care about customer service. Heck, the post office and the DMV have no competition, so they know they automatically get the business of every single person. It's not like people are going to boycott them and make them lose business.

But anyway, I replied to the information I received from Gun Broker stating that I have concerns about the seller simply keeping the gun and not sending the refund. I inquired with Gun Broker what the recourse would be and what actions would be taken and by whom if that were to happen. I haven't received a reply yet.

woad_yurt
February 4, 2011, 02:42 PM
Well, I got my money back from a similar jerk by lodging a complaint. I don't know what they did to him, if anything, but I guess he didn't like the attention. One thing though, as long as you keep the gun, you can't get your money back no matter what else is done or happens. One's always gotta return the goods to get a refund. It's kinda like a rule, you know?

nofishbob
February 4, 2011, 03:42 PM
woad_yurt:
One's always gotta return the goods to get a refund. It's kinda like a rule, you know?

Its kind of a "Mexican standoff"-who makes the first move?

In this case, the seller has already shown himself to be dishonest. Once he has both the gun and the money who knows what will happen?

I agree with the OP- about holding on to the gun until there is some assurance either from the seller (unlikely) or Gunbroker (also unlikely IMHO) that the money will be returned.

I sure hope this can be worked out to the OP's satisfaction!

Bob

Olympus
February 4, 2011, 04:03 PM
I'm happy to make the first move, whoever, I have no confidence in the seller holding up his end of the arrangement.

But I received a response from Gun Broker and since the seller didn't select the option saying no returns, he's obligated to accept the return. But if I send the gun back and he takes my money and runs, I have to wait until 30 days after the end of the auction before I can find a fraud claim. So I might as well wait until 30 days after the auction to send the gun back. Because then if he doesn't give me a refund, I can immediately file a fraud claim rather than having to wait until the 30 day mark.

hemiram
February 5, 2011, 10:08 AM
Sorry to see you got ripped off and are dealing with a loser crook who needs to be made as miserable as possible. I haven't had any real issues with guns I've bought on auctions, but I have been scammed a couple of times on old radios I've bought in the past. One guy turned out to be kind of infamous for doing it. He was a master of cleaning up and making so-so looking radios look really good, and he conveniently covered up the issues the radio I bought from him had when he was showing me "It works great!". He, like the guy who ripped you off, got very aggressive when I called him a few hours after I got it. His mother gave me his phone number because, in her words, "I don't want to deal with his problems all the time!". I tried to stay calm, but the second time I called him, he started screaming at me, then his wife got on the phone, and cussed me out too! Before she hung up, I said to her, "What goes around comes around, and you will wish you had never scammed me by the time it's over!". Click. Well, it turned out he had gotten inside the radio and cooked a couple of components with his soldering iron. Since he was the original owner, he couldn't blame anyone else. It cost me about $100 to fix. I sent him a letter with a copy of the repair bill, and a picture of the parts he had cooked. Of course, he ignored it, and sent the letter and stuff back, with "Drop dead!" written in red marker on the copy of the bill. I'm not someone who will walk away from getting screwed over, so everytime I went to a "Hamfest" (The radio equivalent of a gun show), and he was there, I would wait until he had a sucker nearly reeled in, and then go up to his table and start asking questions like, "Hey Larry, does this radio work like the one you sold me, or does it really work like it's supposed to?". Killed his sales every time. I always took the letter, bill copy, and pic of the cooked parts with me, and if he tried to get me tossed out of the hamfest, I would show the people running it what a scumbag he was, and they would just walk away, and leave me alone. After a couple years of this, probably the 20th time I did it, he finally cracked one Sunday afternoon, after I trashed a sale of a $700 radio. He jumped up out of his chair, and grabs me, and says, "Ok! I've had enough of you! What will it take to get you to stop this? You're killing me!" Well, I thought about it, and said, "Well, how about the $100 you really owe me and $50 bonus for my trouble?". His wife went ballistic, but I got my money and after that, I just walk by and say really loudly, "Be careful Larry!", and people always laugh when I do it. His wife really hates my guts, and that makes it even more fun to do it. Too bad you can't do the same thing. Good luck.

ExMachina
February 5, 2011, 11:59 AM
Been thinking about this some more. I think what I'd do is just send the gun to S&W and get them to give you an official assessment of whether or not it is serviceable. If they flag it as dangerous, than that's one extra piece of ammo you have in your case against the seller. However, if they give the gun a green light, your best bet might be to try to negotiate a partial refund from the seller for whatever you/we think is the difference between what you paid and what the market value of the gun is (given its condition).

If I were the seller, I might be very happy to reach a compromise where I refunded you $200 just to be done with the whole thing. I'm sure part of the guy's resistance to a full refund is that he just doesn't want to have to try to sell the gun again.

Geezer Glide
February 6, 2011, 10:11 AM
I feel bad for the buyer but I think he let his emotions take over when he found a gun that he really wanted. The photos may not have clearly showed the dings in the top strap but the other photos show the messed up screws and show that cylinder has been polished. This and the "Unspecified" Inspection Period/Return Policy should have prompted some communication with the seller before the bidding frenzy ($785? Wow!) The buyer did not get what he had hoped for and I do not think he will get a refund from the seller.

Black Butte
February 6, 2011, 01:26 PM
... should have prompted some communication with the seller before the bidding frenzy ($785? Wow!).

The buyer is out $785.00 for this dinged up revolver? Wow indeed. You can pick up a near perfect 66 for $200.00 less. I hope he gets his money back.

Olympus
February 6, 2011, 09:58 PM
I paid that price for a no-dash 66 with the original box. The problem was evening finding a no-dash that someone is willing to sell. Show me where I can buy another no-dash 66 for $200 less than what I paid and I'll buy it right this second!

Still no response from S&W on the email I sent with pictures attached of the damage to the revolver. I'm a little unhappy that it's been this long without a response. I originally called and try to ask the customer service rep about whether the damage could be fixed. They directed me to email photos. That's been about a week ago.

The photos may not have clearly showed the dings in the top strap but the other photos show the messed up screws and show that cylinder has been polished

Knarled screwheads on revovlers that are 36 years old is not uncommon. If the heads were completely stripped out, then that's different. Easy to request replacement screws from Smith. And a polished cylinder isn't really a cause for concern either, at least in my book. In 36 years, there's bound to have been an owner who wanted to polish up his pistol. I've done it to some of my guns too, but just because I polished the cylinder doesn't mean I don't take care of my guns. I don't see how a polished cylinder has anything to do with the damage of the gun that was deliberately hidden in the photos.

lathedog
February 6, 2011, 11:11 PM
I have to ask if anyone else followed the link and checked the auction listing?

I could see the frame damage in the listing photos. I also saw either leading or bore damage in photo #4 in the listing. And some other scratches on the cylinder. I have to say the bore pic was more worrisome to me than the frame damage. The grip gap is pretty common in my experience, as is the roughness of the soft plastic front site insert.

I concur that his is not an "excellent" condition revolver. However I would shoot it no problem. I would not consider this revolver to be a junker by any means.

The seller did not specify a period for returns, but GB has a standard policy IIRC. The seller did not say "as-is" or similar, probably because that would be at odds with the seller's other comments.

I also notice a lot of competition for this. The OP was not the only person wanting this revolver. I am curious what Fjestad's says about this particular model. Sometimes people get caught up in auctions, but realized prices are a fair indicator of street value.

One option is to sell it on Gunbroker and be careful to highlight your issues. I have taken this path before and people will respond positively to overt documentation of flaws and specific pics to show exactly what you find to be deficient. The other bidders are still out there and maybe they saw the gouges and bid anyway. Hard to say but you might get most of your money back. That is also a great way to get your message across; don't mention the previous seller but people are not dumb and can do a search and figure it out.

I would still hold the seller accountable and would give a B or C review.

mdThanatos
February 7, 2011, 12:43 AM
I had posted what pictures I had originally seen the damage in on the auction. I did however mention that I knew what I was looking for after seeing OP's pictures so that may have made it easier for me to find them.

Oyeboten
February 7, 2011, 03:54 AM
Another possible 'action' of sorts, would be for everyone who has posted in this Thread who feels concern and sympathy about this, could write to the Seller, via any of his other GB Listings, and, let him know how bad he is making himself look in his mis-handling of this serious issue.

Geezer Glide
February 7, 2011, 07:16 AM
Knarled screwheads on revovlers that are 36 years old is not uncommon. If the heads were completely stripped out, then that's different. Easy to request replacement screws from Smith. And a polished cylinder isn't really a cause for concern either, at least in my book.

I agree that the dings make the gun less than excellent condition, as advertised. Also, the screws and the partial polishing make it less than excellent, too, at least in my book, especially if I'm paying just south of $1000. But you are OK with these.

Did you communicate with the seller and ask questions before bidding? The seller really didn't give a lot of information in his listing.

george30
February 7, 2011, 04:00 PM
I just got burned from a gunbroker auction in the same manner. The guy took pictures with bad lighting and his description was "Factory Barrel". He didn't answer my email before the end of the auction. After I won the auction he returned all emails within 30 minutes. He didn't specify an inspection period or as is/no returns so I asked him if I could return it and he didn't answer. The barrel has pitting and needs alot of work done to be able to use it. I'm not sure what action I'm going to take yet.

Even though he pictured the damage in pic#8, he did it in a manner where you could think it may be the lighting. If the #8pic was taken more like pic#7 you would have clearly been able to see the damage. All of his pictures of the grips are conveniently cut off right above the gap. Also none of his pictures clearly show the front sight is a crappy rubber insert. This guy knew exactly what he was doing and you should do everything in your power to get your money back. You will never be happy with this revolver now. Good luck I hope everything works out in the end.

nofishbob
February 7, 2011, 06:46 PM
Again, I think that giving the seller the benefit of the doubt and blaming the OP is a mistake.

An ETHICAL seller takes great care to honestly describe the item he is selling, and will take special care that any flaws are CLEARLY shown in the photos and in the description.

Posting photos that need to be enlarged to barely make out the HUGE flaws on this gun fall far short of honesty. As others have posted, seeing the flaws we know are there on the photos is different than seeing them when you don't know what to look for!

I can't imagine selling a revolver like the one being discussed and not taking a picture that specifically shows the damage and then not even mentioning it in my description.

The seller's intent was to deceive from the beginning. The seller's responses to the OP only confirm the kind of person that he is.

I also think that is is less than High Road to snipe about how much the OP paid for this gun.

Bob


Bob

Olympus
February 7, 2011, 08:54 PM
My sentiments exactly Bob. Thanks for your support.

Olympus
February 8, 2011, 05:17 PM
I received a response from the shady seller, more crap in my opinion:

SEND THE GUN BACK TO MY DEALER ONE OF THE PREVIOUS BIDER WILLING TO PAY $675.00 FOR IT AS IS AND I SEND YOU THE $740.00 BACK SOON ASD YOU REMOVE THE FEEDBACK


I replied that he cannot put conditions on a return such as only sending the money back after I remove the feedback. I told the seller that I would happily remove the negative feedback, but only once I received the full refund. I also said that I would never have had to leave the negative feedback in the first place if he had just refunded the purchase like I asked. This is another reason that I'm not going to send the gun down to his dealer and THEN remove the feedback before I get any kind of refund. I've never been in this situation, but I have a feeling that once I remove the negative feedback, I won't be able to put it back if the guy takes my money AND my gun and runs. But I simply refuse to remove the feedback on principle until I receive the refund. If the seller is unwilling to play by the rules, we'll have to explore a different route.

george30
February 8, 2011, 05:46 PM
Yea I don't think it will let you post feedback again. Just tell him you would gladly remove it once the money was in your hands.

teumessian_fox
February 8, 2011, 07:19 PM
I'm impressed that you got the seller to come this far. I think you're on the right track (sending the gun to his dealer, etc). Just make sure you've got his agreement in writing and have a paper trail. Once the dealer confirms you returned it, if the seller refuses to refund the money, that's theft. That's a whole different ballgame.

I don't think it will let you post feedback again

I'm not sure that's accurate. I was looking at a M1A Scout and this guy has what I'm looking for. But he's got several negatives, plus many of his positives are merely as a buyer, so I'm going to pass. Pity.

Anyway, he burned a guy and the guy left negative feedback. The seller responded to the feedback. Then the guy responded to the response.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.aspx?User=984162
Took my $1250, would not update. He agreed to ship from FFL at extra cost. He did not! His dealer told me no gun was worth buying from this Seller. Seller reversed, went silent, then was ugly. Kept $$
Response: (left on 9/26/2010) No way-this guy's a liar. He DEMANDED I have a dealer ship-then harassed my dealer, calling several times per day until my dealer finally said to forget it.
Follow Up: (left on 9/26/2010) The dealer was a lifesaver, willing to help. Gave me heads-up when Seller reneged. Bad trans. Click his feedback as Seller: 4 frauds for 20. Shoulda known.

IMTHDUKE
February 8, 2011, 07:24 PM
I have bought and sold 38 guns on GB. I have a A+ rating. From what you describe, I would post a negative feedback in a heartbeat for that. And I would state why....BUYER BEWARE.

DAdams
February 9, 2011, 03:58 PM
You have certainly warned me off on any possible future GB purchase I have been considering.

You are right approaching this cooly....since "revenge is a dish best served cold".

I would want a full refund and maintain the negative comment since the product was definitely mis-represented and the seller obviously knew that.

The price you paid deserved something of much better quality from a "market" price standpoint.

Buyer beware or course, but after reading this I wouldn't even consider a GB purchase because life is too short to deal with this kind of crap.

Me I would hire an attorney and spend $5K just to teach the dirtbag a lesson. I am steamed up just reading this.

Olympus
February 9, 2011, 04:31 PM
I appreciate all the support from everyone. I didn't mean to turn everyone off from purchases from Gun Broker. But this taught me that I don't think I will ever buy a gun sight-unseen from anyone except directly from the manufacturer or reputable dealer. Probably the best thing I've learned out of this whole ordeal is that guns are too plentiful to take chances on one that you can't inspect ahead of time, even ones that are considered hard to find. If I cant' get my hands around it before I buy it, then it's probably not something I really need anyway.

Oyeboten
February 9, 2011, 05:37 PM
As far as I can tell, at least as far as those Auctions I have won, Gunbroker has about the same percentage, if maybe even less of a percentage, of Bad Apples, as doing Business in daily life does.

e-bay, is about the same in that way, as far as those Auctions I have won, where in my experience with both, if anything, I have found far fewer scammers or cheats or bad-attitude sellers there, than what is usual for trying to do business in person and in daily like.


If considering to bid on Arms listed on Gunbroker, of course look at the images very carefully.


Request more images be added to the Listing, or, e-mailed to you directly, if wishing for further details to be shown.

e-mail the Seller with any questions about condition, timing, lock up, bore, serial numbers matching, etc.

Review the Seller's Feed Back, what kind of feedback it is, and note whether the Seller obtained the Feed Back as a Seller, or, as a Buyer, or both.

Try and get a 'feel' for the Seller's attitude and interest in the item, the seller's ways of doing things, ways of communication, directness, clearity, powers of observation, responsiveness to your questions, etc.


Many excellent Guns get listed by indifferent, uninformed, casual, bad-attitude, chip-on-the-shoulder, or inexperiences Sellers, who do not take decent images or describe the item informedly, so, some listings will have merely one or two crappy, badly lit images, and, a terse incomplete and often incorrect description, yet, it is an excellent Arm, and, may go for a bargain too, being so badly listed.


It is all a matter of judgement, powers of observation, and, intuition even, to evaluate what is being presented, and, the countinance or bearing of who is presenting it.

Many sellers simply will not or do not reply to questions, for reasons unknown, whatever the actual condition of the Arm or quality of description is.


Calculated risk taken as a buyer, is just that. It can pay off very well, or, not, also of course.


Some of my Gunbroker winnings were just that - a definite calculated risk.


Seller merely has a short superficial listing, a couple bad images taken at an angle from four feet away in dim light, Seller having no prior FB or very low FB, Seller did not reply to questions, and...


Usualy, I will "pass' on Listings like that..! Lol...

But, a few times, I thought to myself " Let's give this a try anyway", and, I would bid, be the only bidder, and win.

Seller then communicates, apologises for not replying to prior in house e-mails, says he was out of town, inherited some old Gus and does not know much about them, he then ships the Armn same day as my Money Order arrives, Arm Arrives, in fantastic near minty condition, perfect mechanically, well packaged, and, I am very happy, and won it for what would have been the price for a real 5th rate beater of that Model.

If interested in anything over a couple hundred dollars, I would say, always communicate with the Seller while the Auction is running, establish some history of communication in which to evaluate the whole and the Arm, and, to have that as a basis also of course, should one win, if there is then any disappointment once the Arm arrives.

If you enjoyed reading about "Feedback on GunBroker Purchase" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!