Ever heard of someone getting busted over 922r compliance?


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TheGewehrGuy
January 31, 2011, 04:09 AM
My dad's a cop, and both of my grandpa's were cops, neither of them have ever even heard of the 922r compliance laws, and I am pretty sure that neither have 99% of the cops out there.

So there's slim chance that you, the law abiding citizen, gets pulled over, with your not so law-abiding, non-compliant AK-47 variant sitting in the back seat which the cop has no right to search.

Then there's the fact that the only real way that I can think of to figure out whether its all compliant, is to find a manufacturer's stamp on everything.

The only other scenario I can possibly think of is that you are charged with a felony, and your guns are taken from you, and someone decides to do a check on the rifle, then you are charged with another felony.

So seriously, what are the chances of ever getting caught if you are other-wise law-abiding? Btw I am not planning on owning an evil, non-complaint gun, this is a hypothetical question.

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Ingsoc75
January 31, 2011, 08:53 AM
The funny thing is that not all domestic parts (furniture for example) have markings on them indicating that they were made in the US.

kenny87
January 31, 2011, 09:05 AM
to answer your question, no, according to statements I have read in the past no one has gotten busted over it.

However, since it seems the vast majority of gun owners, the ones on the internet especially, <deleted> over the thought of even doing something wrong, it would be a good idea so you gun retains legal status and full resale ability. Last thing you would want is to be needing money and someone won't buy your gun because there afraid of it.

Of course, I suppose if you advertised and bragged on the internet about how much money you saved not going 922 the atf might send someone after you.

WardenWolf
January 31, 2011, 09:11 AM
You're right in that it's practically impossible to get charged with a non-922(r) firearm. Additionally, the ATF is likely very hesitant to charge someone over it because of the very real possibility of a court finding 922(r) null and void because it relies on a section of code that is no longer part of law. It relies on the description of a "semi-automatic assault weapon" from a section which has not been part of law since the assault weapon ban expired. For legal purposes, the description does not EXIST, and a good lawyer could likely get a court to recognize this.

Pretty much the only way you could be busted is if the ATF decides they're going to take you down one way or another. Like the poor guy whose AR-15 did a mag dump due to worn parts, and the ATF literally tampered with the gun and used custom ammo loads until they could make it go full-auto in order to get a conviction. In this situation, your gun would already be in Federal custody and they'd just be searching for something to charge you with. If you're in this scenario, consider yourself screwed, because they'll tamper with evidence until they get you.

mljdeckard
January 31, 2011, 10:03 AM
The reason your relative cops haven't heard of this is:

A: It's federal law.

B: Cops in general really don't know much about the law.

In any case, we follow the law whether the likelihood of prosecution is high or low.

kingpin008
January 31, 2011, 11:53 AM
The reason your relative cops haven't heard of this is:

A: It's federal law.

B: Cops in general really don't know much about the law.

In any case, we follow the law whether the likelihood of prosecution is high or low.

Bingo. Took the words out of my mouth.

41magsnub
January 31, 2011, 12:00 PM
IANAL nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I doubt it would be the primary charge or the arresting offense since it is pretty obscure, but I can totally see it used if a person were arrested for something else and the charges are being piled on.

Sebastian the Ibis
January 31, 2011, 02:48 PM
922(r) bans the manufacture but not possession. Therefore, unless you are dumb enough to say (1) yes I imported these parts or know they were imported, and (2) I made a gun out of them, you will be ok. Just having a gun which is not 922 compliant is not illegal, although I would not recommend it.

When I have looked at 922(r) convictions in the past, they all seem like situations where some old crudgmudgeon importer was warned not to install non-compliant parts, did so anyways alleging the BATFE couldn't tell him what to do, and lost.

Aside from that situation, the only way I see a possible 922(r) conviction is with the BATFE's recent change in position regarding SBR's. Since you essentially have to report who is doing the conversion. If you buy a stock Draco pistol it is not 922 compliant since it was imported as a pistol. If you pay the $200 to convert it to an SBR you have to say who is doing the conversion. The BATFE's recent position is that you have to convert the Draco to 922r compliance even thought it is an NFA weapon, not a "rifle." Therefore if you had an SBR Draco, to which you added a buttstock, but not anything else- it is conceivable that the BATFE could ding you for it. Especially since a cop might just arrest you for having a SBR, with or without paperwork, not knowing that they can be legal.

However, even in regards to the previous situation you probably have a pretty good defense that the search/seizure was unconstitutional since it is legal to have an SBR, and you could waive around one of the ATF's old (from 4+ years ago) opinion letters which state that NFA weapons do not have to be 922(r) compliant.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 31, 2011, 06:28 PM
Trader Vics had their FFL pulled over violating 922(r) (installing bayonets on imported SKS rifles). The case is Trader Vic's Ltd. vs. Paul O'Neill, 169 F. Supp. 2nd 957 (ND Indiana 2001).

No criminal charges were filed regarding 922(r) though as far as I can tell; but it does seem to indicate the ATF will pursue a violation if they find one.

WardenWolf
February 1, 2011, 08:35 AM
Trader Vics had their FFL pulled over violating 922(r) (installing bayonets on imported SKS rifles). The case is Trader Vic's Ltd. vs. Paul O'Neill, 169 F. Supp. 2nd 957 (ND Indiana 2001).

No criminal charges were filed regarding 922(r) though as far as I can tell; but it does seem to indicate the ATF will pursue a violation if they find one.
This was before the Assault Weapons Ban expired, however, and the section that 922(r) relies on was still part of law. If you actually read through 922(r), it calls that section right at the start, and cannot stand alone without that section's legal definitions (which aren't legally valid anymore). From a legal standpoint, that section no longer exists, and 922(r) can't stand on its own. However, what the ATF says is "law", at least until someone successfully defends against it in court. DO I think 922(r) is now toothless and the ATF knows this and wouldn't even attempt to use it in court? Yes. But am I going to be the one to find out? No.

tyeo098
February 1, 2011, 10:40 AM
922r is like stop signs.

You always stop out of good will because its the law.
You always make sure your ak's are because its the law.

You follow the law.

Buddy who taught me all about guns told me this, you follow the law no matter how silly.

Sure, you could make an SBR or and SBS and no one would notice, but when the ATF helicopters come and take away your family, you'll wish you followed the law.

You shouldn't follow the law because of the consequences if you don't, you should follow the law because you are a law-abiding citizen.

henschman
February 1, 2011, 01:20 PM
It would be extremely difficult to successfully prosecute someone under 922(r). The government would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, 1) that the requisite number of specific parts on the gun are of foreign manufacture, and 2) that you, the defendant, put together the gun with these parts after the date the law took effect.

They would first have to justify a search and seizure of your gun in order to get a look at the parts... this could be a tall order. Obviously a cop at the range is not going to be able to tell from visual inspection whether you have the right number of domestic parts on a gun, and certainly wouldn't be able to tell whether you put it together. About the only way for them to get their hands on the gun to be able to give it any kind of through inspection would be for them to seize it as evidence associated with another crime.

Then actually proving where each part was made... that would be very difficult, especially with the non-marked trigger, bolt, and magazine parts. They MIGHT be able to prove country of origin by having a metallurgist take a look at it. Some more readily recognizable parts might be easy for an expert witness to testify as to their origin, like bakelite furniture. The serialized parts could be shown to be foreign. It is very doubtful that the ATF or anybody would go to the expense to have a mettalurgist analyze the parts though.

Then proving that you actually manufactured the firearm... they would either have to get eyewitnesses, or get your own statements admitted, if you talked about building the gun, or get receipts/invoices from the parts you bought.

It would be a fairly complex case to have to build against an individual, and the ATF would probably not find it worth the effort to try.

When it comes to the disobedience of an unjust/illegitimate law, you have to weigh the benefit you stand to gain from the violation against the consequences of being caught multiplied by the probability of being caught.

If you are not committing other crimes concurrant with this one that could get your gun seized and put under the ATF's microscope, and you aren't going around bragging about it like an idiot, then your likelihood of being convicted of a 922(r) violation are somewhere between getting killed by a meterorite and getting attacked by a killer whale and a regular whale in the same day. It's up to you whether you think the benefits are worth the risk.

Sebastian the Ibis
February 1, 2011, 02:39 PM
Then actually proving where each part was made... that would be very difficult, especially with the non-marked trigger, bolt, and magazine parts. They MIGHT be able to prove country of origin by having a metallurgist take a look at it. Some more readily recognizable parts might be easy for an expert witness to testify as to their origin, like bakelite furniture. The serialized parts could be shown to be foreign. It is very doubtful that the ATF or anybody would go to the expense to have a mettalurgist analyze the parts though.

How it really works is that the ATF brings in some nincompoop with a fancy title like their "Senior Weapons Origin Program Director" who says "I know based on my X years of experience working for the ATF that this gas piston and FCG are made abroad." It is then the Defendants burden to rebut what he said. I doubt a Federal Judge is not going to credit a BATFE agent on anything firearms related- especially if he has a fancy title.

Your best bet is to not violate 922(r).

rscalzo
February 1, 2011, 03:11 PM
A: It's federal law.
B: Cops in general really don't know much about the law.

You answered your own question. It's a Federal law and local police agencies do not enforce Federal laws.

zhyla
February 1, 2011, 04:58 PM
How it really works is that the ATF brings in some nincompoop with a fancy title like their "Senior Weapons Origin Program Director" who says "I know based on my X years of experience working for the ATF that this gas piston and FCG are made abroad." It is then the Defendants burden to rebut what he said. I doubt a Federal Judge is not going to credit a BATFE agent on anything firearms related- especially if he has a fancy title.

Your best bet is to not violate 922(r).

I don't know why you say this since it's never happened. At least, I've never seen any case mentioned. An expert witness claiming a hunk of steel is or is not "manufactured" (which could just be a re-marking of an imported part) in the USA is ridiculous.

It's a lame law that is just pork for the USA firearms industry. I doubt the ATF is interested in enforcing it against individuals anyways. I know the stock reply on gun forums is "we follow the law", and that's good, but realistically we violate dozens of laws every day (all non-firearm related, hopefully).

mljdeckard
February 2, 2011, 09:22 AM
Speak for yourself. I don't.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 2, 2011, 12:48 PM
I read an article in a NRA 1994 magazine titled "Your SKS and the law" and one of the things that you needed to do to make it 922r compliant was to remove the Fixed 10 round magazine and replace with a detachable 10 rounder which makes no sense.

A: It's federal law.
B: Cops in general really don't know much about the law.


Had one cop try to explain to me that you can't own any gun till your 21, I gave up because me being 18, hes going to think that I'm just a stupid kid.

zoom6zoom
February 2, 2011, 01:32 PM
one of the things that you needed to do to make it 922r compliant was to remove the Fixed 10 round magazine and replace with a detachable 10 rounder which makes no sense.
It could if it were a US made detachable. Mag body, follower, and baseplate each count as a US made part.

Black Butte
February 2, 2011, 04:28 PM
922r compliance is just another liberal feel-good law that does ZERO for public safety. If you put a bunch of autistic chimps in charge of drafting firearms legislation, odds are high the simians would come up with a better bill.

mljdeckard
February 2, 2011, 05:12 PM
^^Choose your insults more carefully. This is The High Road.

Caliper_RWVA
February 2, 2011, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I think alot of Chimps would feel insulted over that remark! ;)

carbine85
February 2, 2011, 07:39 PM
922r is like stop signs.

You always stop out of good will because its the law.
You always make sure your ak's are because its the law.

You follow the law.

Buddy who taught me all about guns told me this, you follow the law no matter how silly.

Sure, you could make an SBR or and SBS and no one would notice, but when the ATF helicopters come and take away your family, you'll wish you followed the law.

You shouldn't follow the law because of the consequences if you don't, you should follow the law because you are a law-abiding citizen.
And we certainly are a nation of many, many, many laws that we have to abide by and work our way through.

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