Which stock will handle better on a 20 inch AR build?


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Mags
January 31, 2011, 11:16 AM
Will an A2 fixed stock or M4 style collapsible stock handle better on a 20 inch barreled AR. Not really tring to go into the many variations of M4 stocks ie. Magpul, Vltor, etc... Just really concerened about length and maneuverability at this point. Want to use this for 3 gun with a 1-4x scope.

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bryank30
January 31, 2011, 11:19 AM
Fixed is the best for a 20'' barrel. Also it will bag better on the bench. Fixed!

henschman
January 31, 2011, 11:24 AM
Well, the collapsible stock will be more adjustable to fit you with different gear/positions/optics. If there is a downside to collapsible stocks, it is that some of them have a little bit of "wobble" inherent in the design, but that can be minimized by buying a quality stock like an Vltor or Magpul. It has never been a problem for me. I really don't think there is much of a downside to a collapsible stock.

I am putting together a 20" AR with a BCM Gov't profile upper and a Vltor E-mod collapsible stock myself.

kaferhaus
January 31, 2011, 11:30 AM
you cannot get a good cheek weld on a collapsible stock. They also rattle a bit (even the good ones). They work well on what they were designed for. Carbines.

Z-Michigan
January 31, 2011, 11:43 AM
A2 fixed is too long. If you want a fixed stock, get an A1 fixed, an ACE ARFX, or the new EFX-A1 stock that was announced at SHOT.

Generally the basic M4 stocks are light enough that the 20" rifle feels unbalanced. This can be changed by using a heavier telestock or various other means.

I pretty much agree with Henschman. And good telestocks do not rattle to any significant extent. I suppose if 1/64" of play bothers you, it might matter.

For best balance, adjustability and cheekweld, take a look at the Magpul UBR. It pretty much does everything well, but it weighs more than most telestocks.

Robert
January 31, 2011, 11:51 AM
My competition rifle sports a 20" barrel and an A2, JP, style stock. I do not find it to be hard to maneuver at all, nor do I find it to be too long.

Mags
January 31, 2011, 12:02 PM
Ok, so the options I am looking at is either a BCM fixed A2 or a Vltor EMod. The Emod will run me about 60 bucks more. My main concern is length and balance. Rattle is the last thing I am worried about.

Robert
January 31, 2011, 12:04 PM
As far as length goes, I am 5'9" stocky built about 215lbs and I have no issue getting my T-Rex arms around my stock.

CraigC
January 31, 2011, 12:16 PM
I have no problems with wobble or cheek weld with the Magpul ACS. Much better in both regards than a standard M4 buttstock.

MrCleanOK
January 31, 2011, 12:33 PM
If I were building a 20" rifle, it'd be wearing an VLTOR EMod-A5. They're tight fitting, as far as collapsible stocks go, and the battery compartments can be used to balance the rifle to your liking.

TonyAngel
January 31, 2011, 12:42 PM
If you're building a game gun, I'd suggest going with an 18" barrel with a rifle length gas system. It will shoot softer than a 20" barrel due to the reduced dwell time. Whether you go with a 20" or 18" I would recommend something shorter than an A2. An A1 worked better for me. Still you will have all of that barrel hanging off of the end of the rifle and I feel that the balance of the rifle has more to do with the way the rifle will handle than the length of the barrel.

A collapsable stock is always handy. I ran a MagPul UBR on my 18" build. It's heavy enough to balance out the rifle, though not overly heavy, and it is adjustable to accomodate a broad range of scenarios.

Mags
January 31, 2011, 12:55 PM
Just checked out the Vltor A5 kit, 225 buckaroos! That's 164 $ more than the A2 stock. Maybe I will get the A2 stock now and since the A5 is a complete kit I can get it later...

henschman
January 31, 2011, 03:34 PM
I don't understand why some of you are saying a fixed stock would balance better than a collapsible one... a fixed stock is hollow plastic... I doubt it weighs much, if any, more than something like an Vltor.

The thing that affects balance a lot more than what stock you have is what weight of barrel you have. A big fat bull barrel or HBAR will be front-heavy no matter what stock you have. And just because it's a 20" barrel doesn't mean it is heavy... a GI-profile 20" barrel, like what BCM sells, is not heavy at all. It weighs less than some of those 16" barrels that are really fat under the handguards, like what DPMS puts on a lot of their rifles.

In fact, if you want a 20" for 3-gun, I recommend a gov't-profile barrel rather than an HBAR, because it will balance and handle better, and it won't be as hard to lug around. It will still be plenty accurate for that type of shooting, especially if you put a free float handguard on it.

And whoever said you can't get a cheek weld on a collapsible stock is totally wrong. A collapsible stock has the same height as a fixed stock, and puts your eye at the exact same level when your cheek is properly rested on it. It is no harder or less comfortable to rest your cheek on.

kaferhaus
January 31, 2011, 03:45 PM
whoever said you can't get a cheek weld on a collapsible stock is totally wrong. A collapsible stock has the same height as a fixed stock, and puts your eye at the exact same level when your cheek is properly rested on it. It is no harder or less comfortable to rest your cheek on.

It MOVES... I don't care which one you buy it will rock side to side some and fore and aft. You also get more cheek slap with one because of it.

They don't weigh the same or even close to it. The rifle has a much heavier buffer, longer tube and spring. And the metal butt plate with trap door is at the outer edge which helps balance the rifle.

CAR stocks are for 16" carbine length guns. You can use whatever you want. But there's a reason the army doesn't put CAR stocks on rifles....

Mags
January 31, 2011, 03:47 PM
Yep, this will be for a BCM GI profile upper.

Z-Michigan
January 31, 2011, 04:01 PM
It MOVES... I don't care which one you buy it will rock side to side some and fore and aft. You also get more cheek slap with one because of it.

Not in my experience. I can only guess you've never used a quality telestock body on a properly sized buffer tube. The VLTOR in particular are really solid. I wasn't joking or exaggerating when I estimated any "wobble" at something in the range of 1/64". It's probably less, in fact.

They don't weigh the same or even close to it. The rifle has a much heavier buffer, longer tube and spring. And the metal butt plate with trap door is at the outer edge which helps balance the rifle.

It's not that big a difference, especially when you are using a quality mil-spec buffer tube on the telestock setup and have an H or H2 buffer installed. Go to something like an ACS or EMod and there's really no difference in weight. The UBR is heavier than an A2 setup.

CAR stocks are for 16" carbine length guns. You can use whatever you want. But there's a reason the army doesn't put CAR stocks on rifles.

You might want to tell Canada that, and also tell the USMC because it looks almost certain that the VLTOR A5 setup (with an EMod stock) will be coming to the USMC shortly for the M16A5. They like 20" rifles and they realize that the A2 stock is too long when wearing armor and various other gear. I find it too long when just wearing lightly padded foam straps for a chestrig.

AR27
January 31, 2011, 04:06 PM
A2's do balance WAY better than carbines, and the guy that said i doubt they weigh much is wrong. They feel to be about triple the weight of collapsible stocks. (i mean standard m4 stocks, not fancy after market stocks)

Also I completly disagree with the guy who said A2's are to long, but then again im 6'4

Congrats on your new build! ;) lol

Z-Michigan
January 31, 2011, 04:27 PM
Also I completly disagree with the guy who said A2's are to long, but then again im 6'4

I'm 6' with a 36" sleeve length, so I'm not small - just a little bigger than average. I find the A2 stock comfortable if I'm only wearing a shirt or windbreaker. Put on an insulated jacket and it starts feeling too long. Wear padded shoulder straps (like for a backpack or chest rig) and it feels a lot too long. I find the A1 length better in all conditions including t-shirt only shooting. But with a telestock I can have the perfect stock length whether I'm wearing a t-shirt, a winter jacket, or padded straps over top of a winter jacket. To me that's a winner. Obviously, each person should pick what works best for them.

BearAZ737
January 31, 2011, 04:44 PM
I had a Cav Arms MKII lower under a 20" upper, I loved it. It has a pretty short fixed stock and is quite inexpensive and they love love love Pmags. Its an all polymer lower though but its rock solid. I'm sure you already have a lower but its just a suggestion for a fixed stock, IIRC it uses the carbine length buffer spring and buffer.

AR27
January 31, 2011, 04:50 PM
I'm 6' with a 36" sleeve length, so I'm not small - just a little bigger than average. I find the A2 stock comfortable if I'm only wearing a shirt or windbreaker. Put on an insulated jacket and it starts feeling too long. Wear padded shoulder straps (like for a backpack or chest rig) and it feels a lot too long. I find the A1 length better in all conditions including t-shirt only shooting. But with a telestock I can have the perfect stock length whether I'm wearing a t-shirt, a winter jacket, or padded straps over top of a winter jacket. To me that's a winner. Obviously, each person should pick what works best for them.
Its all user preference, there is no real argument, what ever works for you. To each his own.

The A2 served me just well in my time in the stan with 2/7 infantry marines, and i had ALOT of stuff on

wnycollector
January 31, 2011, 07:48 PM
I have an A1 stock (Cav MKII upper) on my 20" government profile barreled upper. The balance and weight is superb. I shoot NTCH and I'm 6'4, the A1 stock fits me fine.

taliv
January 31, 2011, 09:30 PM
mags, if you are setting this up for 3gun, get a shorter barrel (16" middy gas or 17-18" rifle gas). find a wylde chamber if you can. get a threaded muzzle. and definitely get the lightest weight/profile you can find.

if you get the 16" bbl, get a magpul CTR or MOE stock or an LMT SOPMOD. it's cheap, light and you can get a good cheek weld on it.

if you get the 17-18" bbl, go with a magpul UBR or a fixed A1.

The only reason to get an A2 stock is if you're shooting NRA/CMP High Power in Service Rifle class. other than that, they are a bad idea.

rbernie
January 31, 2011, 09:35 PM
you cannot get a good cheek weld on a collapsible stock.I get an excellent cheekweld with the Magpul CTR, and use them on most all of my ARs (even those with 20" barrels).

I tend towards lightweight barrels (such as a CMMG 20" chrome-lined 1:7" pencil barrel) and they balance well and point very nicely with the carbine extension and CTR stock....

J.Boyette
January 31, 2011, 09:59 PM
magpul UBR or a A1 stock is the best options.

John

madcratebuilder
February 1, 2011, 08:33 AM
You need to handle some different rifles to find the butt that is "best" for you. I have a A1, M4, EMOD A5 and PRS on four different rifles. Each is "best" for the rifle it's on. I think the EMOD A5 is very versatile, with seven positions you have a excellent selection of lengths and the buffer and spring are very smooth on a carbine gas system.

Al Thompson
February 1, 2011, 08:38 AM
Another satisfied M16A1 stock user here. :) Added benefit is that they are relatively inexpensive.

Justin
February 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
Will an A2 fixed stock or M4 style collapsible stock handle better on a 20 inch barreled AR. Not really tring to go into the many variations of M4 stocks ie. Magpul, Vltor, etc... Just really concerened about length and maneuverability at this point. Want to use this for 3 gun with a 1-4x scope.

For shooting 3-Gun, a collapsible stock really isn't going to be an advantage, and in some cases, it may even be detrimental. Most of the competitors I see are running fixed stocks. Unless you're proportionally outside of the norm, the regular A1- or A2-length stocks should work just fine. I prefer the fixed stocks because they have a much more solid feel than the 6-point collapsible stock that I've got.

Before spending money on gear, run your rifle at a few matches and see how you do. Try to be aware of any situations where the stock impedes your ability to shoot. If it doesn't, stick with what you've got.

For the average citizen, the best application for a collapsible stock is for training newbs or kids. That way you can adjust the stock to fit them.

Darthbauer
February 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
On any barrel over 18 inches I'd go with the UBR.

henschman
February 1, 2011, 12:56 PM
I would consider the actual weight of the barrel, more than how long it is, when deciding what kind of stock would balance it best.

Mags
February 1, 2011, 09:34 PM
Okay if I go collapsible I want an EMod.

Will an EMod mil spec kit run with this upper (20 inch rifle gas) reliably or should I shell out the extra 50 bucks for the EMod A5 kit?

Z-Michigan
February 1, 2011, 11:08 PM
A standard setup with a carbine buffer tube, carbine spring and carbine or H buffer should be 100% reliable with a 20" rifle style upper. I have two setups like that, both running carbine buffers, both are 100% reliable. Many people report being able to use an H2 or even H3 buffer reliably, and the heavier buffers may give slightly softer felt recoil, but aren't really necessary with a rifle gas setup.

The A5 setup may give slightly softer recoil yet, and a potential increase in reliability, but you are not likely to have any (any!) reliability issues with the carbine buffer tube setup and a 20" rifle upper.

Just remember, the complete back end must be all of the same type:
rifle buffer, rifle buffer tube, and rifle spring; OR
carbine-sized buffer (whether in carbine, H, H2 or H3 weight), carbine buffer tube, and carbine spring; OR
A5 tube, A5 buffer, and A5 spring (which I believe is a standard rifle spring, but best to double check)

jpwilly
February 1, 2011, 11:55 PM
A1 or Magpul CTX would be my vote...

mshootnit
February 2, 2011, 12:19 AM
I really like the A1.

alemonkey
February 2, 2011, 08:03 AM
I run a similar setup but with an 18" barrel for 3 gun. I have a Leupold 1-4 scope, 18" barrel, and A2 stock. It handles nicely and has a good solid cheekweld. The stock length and my el cheapo Primary Arms scope mount are just right for using the scope. I have long arms, though, so the A2 fits me well. I think an A1 length like the Cav Arms stock might be more versatile for more people.

madcratebuilder
February 2, 2011, 08:08 AM
Will an EMod mil spec kit run with this upper (20 inch rifle gas) reliably or should I shell out the extra 50 bucks for the EMod A5 kit?

It may allow you to get the second shoot off sooner as it should have slightly less recoil. I have mine on a 6.5 so I can't compare it to a 5.56. Worth it IMHO.

Welding Rod
February 3, 2011, 03:38 PM
I think the A1 as long as you aren't wearing body armor.

I was fortunate to have been able to buy several used GI A1 stocks from Rock River Arms a couple years ago for something like $10 each.

Mags
February 4, 2011, 09:27 PM
Just ordered the A5 kit.

Onmilo
February 4, 2011, 09:31 PM
I have Magpul CTRs on a couple 20" rifles.
I may switch one out to a E-Mod A5 kit as I am using VLTOR tubes now anyway.
I use DPMS heavy carbine buffers which basically duplicate the weight of a standard rifle buffer and standard carbine action springs, this combo work extremely well with the 20" barrels.

Mags
February 23, 2011, 08:48 PM
Thanks, everyone I went with the A5 btw.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/hossdelgado/100_0318.jpg

Also I don't want to hear about my scope mount setup my rifle doesn't know the difference whether or not the internet people do or not. :)

Z-Michigan
February 23, 2011, 08:59 PM
Mags, does your rifle have a phone #? Cuz I'm going to call it up and tell it what's wrong with its scope mount. :)

Mags
February 23, 2011, 09:02 PM
Yep call Larue 512-259-1585 and order me the correct mount cuz ol Mags ain't buyin her a 215 dollar mount.:neener:
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=40

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