leo carry


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Cracker jack
January 31, 2011, 10:55 PM
i was wondering what the limits are for a leo on conceled carry? i had a leo in class (off duty in civies) carrying his pistol. i understand why some might need to carry in similer places but i was just wondering?

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TexasRifleman
January 31, 2011, 11:12 PM
Not sure what you are asking. State law is probably going to vary widely. Where exactly are you talking about?

Some states word the LE regulations in such a way that there is never an "off duty" time, a sworn LE is required to live up to his duties 24/7.

AWorthyOpponent
January 31, 2011, 11:42 PM
Most departments around here require LEO's to carry all the time, no matter where they go. Part of the dept's policy.

sappnasty
January 31, 2011, 11:50 PM
Please refer to ISP2605's post. He is the expert with all the legal advice. Please disregard my post and refer to his. Thanks.

Sappnasty

Cracker jack
January 31, 2011, 11:58 PM
i think sappnasty got it i wanted to know were a leo can and cant carry airports/schools/banks/gov offices and any thing else you can think of.

i saw the guys gun printing i knew he was a cop so it didn't cause any alarm to me but i did take a second look. it did get me thinking so i figured i would ask.

Monkey_King
February 1, 2011, 12:29 AM
I know some of the guys I worked with at a small pd used to get their carry permit because our dept. policy required them to carry their duty weapon if carrying off duty. They didn't wish to carry the full size duty weapon so they got a permit and carried the weapon of their choice. According to TN law they were fine either way but this was their way of circumventing dept. policy.

BTW. crackerjack, Unless things have changed in TN leo can't carry at a school unless its official business, but I have seen many do it anyway. I'm not certain but I think its the same with airports. Can't carry if you're drinking, but that's a no brainer. However, I've seen that done too.

GRIZ22
February 1, 2011, 02:21 AM
or in places that post "No weapons or concealed waepons permitted/allowed".

Well yes and no. State and local LEOs in their own state are restricted by no carry signs if the state law says so. I don't know of a state where a on or off duty LEO is restricted from banks, schools, airports (non-secure area), state or local govt buidings etc. in their own state, although there may be some. 18USC930a allows LEOs on any level to carry in a Federal building or facility although I know of some places that have local restrictions for specific reasons . Federal LEOs are not restricted by any state law.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2011, 11:33 AM
i think sappnasty got it i wanted to know were a leo can and cant carry airports/schools/banks/gov offices and any thing else you can think of.

Here in Washington a LEO would certainly be able to carry in all those places (except Federal government buildings) because I, non-leo Joe Citizen, can as well.

Do you mind telling us what state you are in? Just from the tone of your postings it seems like you live in a very restrictive state.

isp2605
February 1, 2011, 01:12 PM
I continually find it amazing that LEOSA has been in effect for 6.5 years since July 2004 and even some LEOs constantly misquote it or add their personal interpretation which isn't in the law. I also find it amazing that people who don't have a clue seem to think they have to offer their 2 cents when they obviously don't know.
To the OP - do a seach on LEOSA. Basically what it says is a qualified LEO or retired LEO can carry anywhere in the US and the territories/possessions with some exceptions explained below. LEOSA exempts qualified LEOs and retired from state laws. Doesn't matter what restrictions/limits a state places on a CCW carrier, those restrictions/limits do not apply. That's what LEOSA is about and so states right in the beginning of the statute.
LEOSA clearly states who can prohibt a LEO/retiree from carrying and where. A state government can only prohibit a LEO/retiree from carrying on government property. A state cannot prohibit the LEO/retiree from carrying on property that is not the government's. Some states prohibit CCWs from carrying in places like bars. Such prohibitions do not apply to LEOs/retirees unless the government owns the bars. A property owner can prohibit a LEO/retiree from carrying on the owner's property.
There is nothing in LEOSA that requires a LEO to carry in a holster.
Federal buildings are still prohibited. LEOSA does not exempt federal laws, only state laws.
LEOs/retirees can carry in banks unless the bank prohibits it. Banks are private property.
It doesn't matter if the LEO/retiree is in their home state or not, LEOSA applies the same in every state and territory/possession.
LEOSA does not prohibit a LEO from carrying while drinking, only that they cannot be under the influence.
LEOSA is short and pretty simple. There's no reason why some LEOs continue to have difficulty understanding it other than they've either never read it or they have reading comprehension difficulties. Makes you wonder how they enforce other statutes if they can't understand LEOSA.

sappnasty
February 1, 2011, 04:11 PM
Thanks Commander ;)

Nikdfish
February 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
Actually, LEOSA very specifically states that state rules regarding the carrying/transport of handguns (not just CCW rules), other than what is specifically enumerated in the act (LEOSA), simply do not apply to those who meet the criteria to be covered by LEOSA. Read the text of the current law, including the recent update which included language to clarify that it also covered immunity from ammunition & magazine restriction while carrying.

Nick

PRM
February 1, 2011, 04:35 PM
I know some of the guys I worked with at a small pd used to get their carry permit because our dept. policy required them to carry their duty weapon if carrying off duty. They didn't wish to carry the full size duty weapon so they got a permit and carried the weapon of their choice. According to TN law they were fine either way but this was their way of circumventing dept. policy. ~ Monkey_King

That's about as dumb as it gets. You CAN get a permit, and yes be legal in carrying whatever you wish. BUT, the department can still discipline and/or fire you for violating policy. Violating policy has nothing to do with being legal.

It may be legal for me to be a bar tender in my off time ~ don't mean I can without getting fired for violating policy.

sappnasty
February 1, 2011, 04:41 PM
Again, everyone please refer to ISP2605's post. He is the expert with all the legal advice. Please disregard all of my previous incorrect posts and refer to his. Thanks.

isp2605
February 1, 2011, 04:50 PM
Thanks Sappnasty.
Actually I was on the state committee with several agencies and legislators where we did a ton of research on the topic and put together the state's LEOSA program. IL was one of the first states in the nation to have a program implemented and running. Within 6 months of passage IL's program was ready to go. The biggest holdup was getting the legislature to determine and fund the agency to oversee the program. Several other states have used IL's program as a basis for their own programs. So yeah, I have done a lot of work on LEOSA, a lot more than most.
I've been in LE now for 40 yrs. Retired and back on contract.

sappnasty
February 1, 2011, 06:25 PM
Hey in no way shape or form was I trying to be sarcastic. I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong or uninformed. I had previously the entrie bill, however I did not remember it all correctly and have re-read including the update. BUT, I will still show respect for specific states guidelines and carry rules. I will also continue to follow my own agencies policies and procedures. I find that it is easier to stay out of trouble than to try and get out of trouble. As a LEO, part of my job (on duty and off duty) is seeing the err of my ways, to be mature enough to understand mistakes that I make and to correct and move on. Great forum and I simply can't get enough of the high road!

GRIZ22
February 1, 2011, 10:04 PM
It doesn't matter if the LEO/retiree is in their home state or not, LEOSA applies the same in every state and territory/possession.


True LEOSA applies all over the U.S. but if they are in their home state impacts where a LEO can carry. Many states exempt their own active LEOs from not carrying in a courthouse or school but otherwise forbid it. An out of state or retired LEO carrying in one of these places under LEOSA would be in trobule.

Such prohibitions do not apply to LEOs/retirees unless the government owns the bars.

Is this based on the Sturgis case? That is good case law but is not binding nationwide.

Monkey_King
February 1, 2011, 10:34 PM
That's about as dumb as it gets. You CAN get a permit, and yes be legal in carrying whatever you wish. BUT, the department can still discipline and/or fire you for violating policy. Violating policy has nothing to do with being legal.

It may be legal for me to be a bar tender in my off time ~ don't mean I can without getting fired for violating policy.
I didn't say it was right, wrong, intelligent or otherwise. It was simply what some guys did because they wanted to carry their own personal backup. Yes, they were legal,but in violation of department policy. In the event of an off duty shooting they were hoping to mitigate any administrative punishment by having a hgcp. You stated the same thing I had already stated with regard to legality. As for being dumb, well that's your opinion I guess. I think they preferred to be safe than worry about getting written up.

PRM
February 1, 2011, 11:26 PM
Openly violating policy doesn't leave much to worry about in most departments as far as disciplinary action. Aside from that, the officer is creating a whole list of liability issues if they ever use it. Separate from being unauthorized, I doubt if the department trains them on unauthorized weapons. Training is a big issue in litigation. Since several seem to be involved in this, it probably wouldn't be too hard to show it was overlooked by supervisors. Then you have the departments liability for knowingly allowing it to take place.

Cracker jack
February 2, 2011, 07:02 PM
I live in Florida its not that its strict I just don’t like double standards. Talking with the guys same age he made it seam as if he was better than me but he admitted he didn’t practice as much as I do(he could be better than me but it was never proven). That is why I am a little upset about this. Now this was one experience and I don’t think every officer is this way. It was just something I didn’t understand why he could and I couldn’t. Now I look forward to sb 234 becoming a law taking away my venerability on days I go to school.

isp2605
February 3, 2011, 08:39 AM
Grizz asks:
"Such prohibitions do not apply to LEOs/retirees unless the government owns the bars."
Is this based on the Sturgis case? That is good case law but is not binding nationwide.

No, it's based on the LEOSA statute. It has nothing to do with the Sturgis case.
Have you read LEOSA lately? If so, what's it say? It's clearly worded in the statute. Been there since 2004.
"‘(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park."

It's clear who can limit. Note (2). The "state" can prohibit only on state or local government property, installation, building, base or park. If the state or local government doesn't own the bar then it's not government property. It's private property. As such only the owner of such private property can limit who carries on such property. That part is clearly worded in (1). It was part of the original LEOSA statute from 2004.

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