Ohio Man arrested for selling guns out of state


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bad4dr
February 1, 2011, 07:15 AM
The recent thread here about selling guns without an FFL for profit, coupled with this story in today's local Columbus newspaper prompted me to start a new thread. Here's the story:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/31/Ohioan-charged-illegal-gun-sales.html?sid=101

The guy lives in Ohio. He drove to Tennessee to sell some guns (shotguns, rifles, and revolvers) to an individual who turned out to be an undercover cop. The man was arrested immediately but released on a $20,000 bond.

So why did I think of the FFL thread regarding this story? Well, there was a post in there that said "Face to face sales, if not an FFL, need be non one else's business. Buy and sell 5 or 500 and it's no one's business how much money you make or lose." Well, that's not always the case, it seems.

Thoughts? Opinions?

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docnyt
February 1, 2011, 07:24 AM
As long as everybody stays within the bounds of the law we should be OK.

yeti
February 1, 2011, 07:39 AM
Living in Ohio and selling in Tenn., and being under the RO were his problems, and selling illegally to the UC, really doesn't have much bearing on legal F2F sales.

The big problem, if you do a lot of private selling, is there is no defined point where disposing of some personal property becomes dealing without an FFL.

Sam1911
February 1, 2011, 07:42 AM
So why did I think of the FFL thread regarding this story? Well, there was a post in there that said "Face to face sales, if not an FFL, need be non one else's business. Buy and sell 5 or 500 and it's no one's business how much money you make or lose." Well, that's not always the case, it seems.


No, it isn't always the case. If you sell to someone in another state, you're breaking federal law.

Further, if you are buying and selling a lot of guns, you could open youself up to charges of dealing guns without a license.

The US Code says:
(11) The term “dealer” means

(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Some further definitions:
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—
(A) is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent resident alien of the United States;
(B) involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States; and
(C) is intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

There is still plenty of grey area to get yourself hung up in.

Deltaboy
February 1, 2011, 08:00 AM
There must be more to this case than what we are being told at this time.

bad4dr
February 1, 2011, 08:12 AM
That's kinda what I'm thinking too, Deltaboy. Thanks, Sam, for the detailed response, also. I'm curious about a few things, mainly because I don't know much about buying and selling guns privately. Let's say I'm on vacation from OH in TN, and I bring my gun because I know of a range where I can shoot. While I'm there, a guy walks up and says, "Hey, that's a fine piece. I've been looking for one of those. Would you take $1,000?" Am I breaking the law if I sell it to him? If so, why? Is it a tax thing? I paid the taxes on it when I bought it from the dealer. Is it strictly an interstate commerce thing? What makes a gun different from a car? Or real estate? Again, other than the tax thing when it comes to registering said car or transferring the deed of the house.

Another reason I ask is because I've seen several guns in the "for sale" section here that I'd be interested in buying. Some are in neighboring states, but if the price is right it would make for a nice weekend getaway. CDan I legally BUY a gun in another state, I just can't SELL one in another state?

Again, I'm not attempting to kick a hornet's nest, I'm just unsure of the rules.

EDIT: Found a thread on THR that deals with this very thing (as if there was ever a doubt :) ) Looks like no matter what, out of state deals must go through at least one FFL.

Sam1911
February 1, 2011, 08:23 AM
I hate to be that guy, but, why not just read the NRA's page on federal laws (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/), or the ATF's FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html)?

Let's say I'm on vacation from OH in TN, and I bring my gun because I know of a range where I can shoot. While I'm there, a guy walks up and says, "Hey, that's a fine piece. I've been looking for one of those. Would you take $1,000?" Am I breaking the law if I sell it to him?YES. You are selling a firearm to a resident of another state without going through a Federal Firearms License holder (dealer). Both you and he commit separate felonies.

If so, why? Is it a tax thing? Nope. It is a Gun Control Act of 1968 thing.

Is it strictly an interstate commerce thing? That's the underlying guise of how the federal government claims the ability to regulate arms sales, yes.

What makes a gun different from a car? Or real estate? Again, other than the tax thing when it comes to registering said car or transferring the deed of the house.I don't know all the laws on car or real estate transfers, but there isn't a "Car Control Act of 1968." But there IS a "Gun Control Act of 1968," and it says this is illegal.

Another reason I ask is because I've seen several guns in the "for sale" section here that I'd be interested in buying. Some are in neighboring states, but if the price is right it would make for a nice weekend getaway. CDan I legally BUY a gun in another state, I just can't SELL one in another state?You CAN buy OR sell a rifle or shotgun in another state -- as long as it is bought from or sold to an FFL dealer. You can SELL, but not BUY, a handgun to/from a dealer in another state.

(You can buy and sell to individuals, of course, so long as you do all the transferrs through a dealer.)

natman
February 1, 2011, 08:26 AM
There must be more to this case than what we are being told at this time.

Seems straightforward enough to me.

The guy lives in Ohio. He drove to Tennessee to sell some guns (shotguns, rifles, and revolvers) to an individual who turned out to be an undercover cop.

He's a resident of Ohio. It's reasonable to assume that the buyer in Tennessee was not a resident of Ohio. Hence:

According to court documents obtained by the Shelbyville Times-Gazette, 53-year-old Thomas Lee Stetler of Port Clinton, Ohio, faces a charge of illegal interstate transfer of firearms...

According to Federal law you can only sell directly to a resident of your own state. Otherwise an FFL has to be involved.

docnyt
February 1, 2011, 08:27 AM
You cannot legally buy or sell a gun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end. The scenario you gave with the guy wanting to buy your gun while at the range is definitely illegal. It would be legal if you both went to one of his state's FFLs and conducted business there.

You can buy guns from members here from different states as long as they get shipped to an FFL in your state. Some exceptions being antiques and curios and relics eligible firearms IF you hold a C & R license.

As to why we have these arbitrary laws, don't ask me.

nalioth
February 1, 2011, 08:54 AM
You cannot legally buy or sell a handgun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.Fixed it for you, bud.

You can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state, so long as both state's laws are observed. Selling any gun to a dealer in any state is not illegal, so "selling" isn't needed here.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2011, 10:44 AM
You know, this brings up an interesting question...

18 USC 922 (a)(5):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

Technically, by the letter of the law, if Joe from Montana sees a gun that I have for sale on gunbroker, me being a Washington resident, and buys it from me, and I ship it to his FFL for transfer to him, I have still, technically broken the exact letter of the law. We know tens, possibly hundreds of millions of transactions have been done this way, but how is that not violating the law?

Joe from Montana pays me directly for my gun. I have SOLD the gun to him. He purchased that gun from ME, not an FFL. The FFL only does the transfer, not the actual purchasing or selling. How does that not violate the letter of the law?

nalioth
February 1, 2011, 10:47 AM
NavyLT, here's the kicker:
5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

This makes it illegal to transfer or deliver to anyone other than a same-state resident, or FFL holder.
This makes it illegal to sell or deliver to anyone other than a same-state resident, or FFL holder
This makes it illegal to trade or deliver to anyone other than a same-state resident, or FFL holder
This makes it illegal to give or deliver to anyone other than a same-state resident, or FFL holder
This makes it illegal to transport or deliver to anyone other than a same-state resident, or FFL holder

Sam1911
February 1, 2011, 10:48 AM
You're saying that by the text of the law, we should have to sell the gun to the DEALER and then the dealer would sell the gun to the eventual purchaser?

Why don't we have to? Well, probably because the BATFE hasn't thought of interpreting it that way, yet.

TX expat
February 1, 2011, 10:50 AM
let's not give 'em any ideas!

CoRoMo
February 1, 2011, 11:10 AM
It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell... any firearm to any person ... who ... does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides
This is the short of it, and this is how I read it. To put it more clearly, when the buyer resides in the state in which the transferor (FFL license) resides, the seller does not violate the law. In fact, this is how this law is being enforced today.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2011, 11:19 AM
nalioth,

I would agree with your interpretion except for one thing... the grammatical construction of the sentence. The actions listed in the sentence:

"transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver" are a list of actions, separated each with a comma with the conjuction 'or'. Because of the grammatical construction of the sentence, it would be interpreted, literally as: "transfer or sell or trade or give or transport or deliver".

In order for your interpretation to be correct, the sentece would have to be constructed as:

"transfer, sell, trade, give, or transport - and deliver" or something similar which would attach the action of delivering to each of the previous terms separately. As it is currently written in the statute, however, the action of delivering is just one more item in the list.

In fact, this is how this law is being enforced today.

I am not arguing the BATFE's interpretation and enforcement of the law. We all know the BATFE holds sales that go THROUGH FFL's to be legal.... but I don't really see how that can be a LITERAL interpretation of the law.

xr1200
February 1, 2011, 12:50 PM
Always use an FFL dealers and for shipping and recieving, follow the law to avoid problems. This guy just should have had a dealer sell them all on consignment.

nalioth
February 1, 2011, 01:06 PM
nalioth,

I would agree with your interpretion except for one thing... the grammatical construction of the sentence. The actions listed in the sentence:

"transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver" are a list of actions, separated each with a comma with the conjuction 'or'. Because of the grammatical construction of the sentence, it would be interpreted, literally as: "transfer or sell or trade or give or transport or deliver".

In order for your interpretation to be correct, the sentece would have to be constructed as:

"transfer, sell, trade, give, or transport - and deliver" or something similar which would attach the action of delivering to each of the previous terms separately. As it is currently written in the statute, however, the action of delivering is just one more item in the list.If the commas are taking the place of "and", your interpretation doesn't make sense, because you can't do all 5 actions at the same time.

Logically, each comma replaces an "or", which makes sense, as you can do any of the actions, but are breaking the law if you don't do them with an FFL holder OR an eligible fellow state resident.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2011, 02:01 PM
Logically, each comma replaces an "or", which makes sense, as you can do any of the actions, but are breaking the law if you don't do them with an FFL holder OR an eligible fellow state resident.

And that is exactly what I am saying. When I sell my gun to Joe in Montana, he pays me directly for that gun. I am the seller, he is the purchaser. Even though since 1968 the BATFE has said that transaction is OK so long as the gun is TRANSFERRED through an FFL dealer, the fact remains that I still sold the gun to an out-of-state resident - the FFL is neither the purchaser nor the seller - the FFL is only the transfer agent.

CoRoMo
February 1, 2011, 02:10 PM
...the FFL is only the transfer agent.
That was my point, but it also is the primary phrase in the law itself. From my earlier post...
any person ... who ... does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides
It is only unlawful to sell to that guy. There is nothing in the law about the buyer and seller residing in the same state, only the transferor and the buyer. You are not the transferor to Montana Joe. But the law goes further and puts the burden of residency verification upon the transferor, not the seller. You can sell Joe Montana the gun, as long as Joe resides in the same state as the transferor, but not necessarily the same state as you.

I tend to believe that this law was worded intentionally to ban interstate transactions across the board, but going through a licensee in the buyer's state is a loophole to the law. :D

nalioth
February 1, 2011, 02:17 PM
I'm not sure if you guys are devil's advocating or what.

It's pretty cut and dried with the "or".

Tom Texan cannot sell a gun directly to a visiting Yankee, but he can sell a gun to a Yankee and deliver said gun to a FFL holder for legal disposition.

Tom Texan can sell and deliver any firearms he wishes to Tawny Texan, his next-door-neighbor w/o an FFL's involvement (same state residents).

The law as y'all are quoting allows for legal disposition of any transferred firearms, whether intrastate or interstate.

The way you guys are interpreting it, NO OUT-OF-STATE TRANSFERS are legal, in any form, which would put a lot of the gun industry out of business.

CoRoMo
February 1, 2011, 02:27 PM
The way you guys are interpreting it, NO OUT-OF-STATE TRANSFERS are legal, in any form...
Not me, I'm saying the opposite. I can't comment on the OR language. I did well in English class, but not well enough to pick up that dispute. I can only see that it plainly says that the buyer has to reside in the state that the transferor resides. It absolutely does not say that the buyer has to reside in the state that the seller does.

JohnBT
February 1, 2011, 04:06 PM
It seems like it's written in perfectly clear English to me. Selling not only involves collecting the money, but you have to deliver the goods as promised to have a completed sale.

By shipping the gun to the dealer you have met the precise letter of the law. You have not delivered, sold, transferred a firearm to a prohibited out-of-state person. The sale is not a sale until the buyer takes delivery and the buyer does that from a licensed dealer. Read the part about "other than a licensed dealer." They've specifically listed who is exempt from the prohibitions and who you/we can send a gun to out-of-state.

"transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector)"

The sale is not complete until the FFL completes it by delivering the gun as specified in the law.

John

Joe in fla
February 1, 2011, 04:21 PM
Bad4dr said: The guy lives in Ohio. He drove to Tennessee to sell some guns (shotguns, rifles, and revolvers) to an individual who turned out to be an undercover cop.

Has anyone besides me noticed all the arrests for strawman and out of state sales recently??? Ohio, Wisconsin, Arizona and more. All seem to be based on sales to an undercover agent. Looks like the ATF has been very busy!

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2011, 04:27 PM
Thanks everyone... I see what you are saying now. Yes, I do believe, according to your explanations that the typical out of state sale, through an FFL does actually conform to the letter of the law. You changed my mind!

I wasn't seing the word transferor for some reason...

honestlou
February 2, 2011, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by docnyt
You cannot legally buy or sell a handgun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.
Fixed it for you, bud.

You can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state, so long as both state's laws are observed. Selling any gun to a dealer in any state is not illegal, so "selling" isn't needed here.

Actually, you didn't fix it-- he was correct. The key phrase was "except through an FFL".
To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.

NavyLt, you are correct in your original assertion in that a strict reading of the statute makes it a crime to sell out of state, even if the transfer goes through an FFL. Generally a sale is a sale, and is not dependant upon delivery,
although this could vary under state law-regardless, it's not relevant here.

I believe the reason that this is not an issue is that the primary concern is the transfer, and the way that string of words is used is basically as all synonyms for any kind of transfer--the intent was not to list separate types of actions, but to cover all types of transfers.

It could have simply used the phrase "any transfer", but you know how wordy lawyers can be. I see this as similar to contracts of sale, where the language is "I hereby sell, transfer, and assign...". We really just mean "sell". We're not doing three separate things--we're just selling.

nalioth
February 2, 2011, 09:20 AM
You cannot legally buy or sell a handgun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.
Fixed it for you, bud.

You can buy a long gun from a dealer in any state, so long as both state's laws are observed. Selling any gun to a dealer in any state is not illegal, so "selling" isn't needed here.

Actually, you didn't fix it-- he was correct. The key phrase was "except through an FFL".You should read the original post see what was changed (hint: look at the colors). Here is docnyt's original post:
You cannot legally buy or sell a gun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.docnyt's sentence has ALL firearm transfers being funneled through an in-state FFL, not just handguns.

To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.
This is untrue. Anyone can buy a handgun from anyone in any other state, they just have to receive it through an FFL holder in their state of residence.

honestlou
February 2, 2011, 09:47 AM
From nalioth:

You should read the original post see what was changed (hint: look at the colors). Here is docnyt's original post:

Quote:
You cannot legally buy or sell a gun interstate without going through an FFL on the receiving state's end.

docnyt's sentence has ALL firearm transfers being funneled through an in-state FFL, not just handguns.

docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.

By nalioth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by honestlou
To be clear, a person can buy long guns from an FFL regardless of residency. A person can only by hanguns from a resident of the same state, regardless of whether or not the seller is an FFL holder.

This is untrue. Anyone can buy a handgun from anyone in any other state, they just have to receive it through an FFL holder in their state of residence.

You are correct here, and I did mistate what I intended. I intended to say that the transfer of a handgun has to be through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence. It is not the "sale" that is relevant, only the "transfer".

nalioth
February 2, 2011, 09:56 AM
docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

A citizen can transfer a long gun from any FFL in any state, so long as both state's laws are honored.
If there is a state that does not allow for gun purchases made in person in other states, your reasoning would apply for a resident of that state.
If there is a state that does not allow non-residents to buy longarms directly from its local gun shops, your reasoning would apply.

honestlou
February 2, 2011, 10:33 AM
By nalioth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by honestlou
docnyt's sentence is correct--all interstate firearm transfers have to be completed through an in-state FFL, not just handguns. I am a Louisiana resident. A Mississippi resident may not sell me any firearm without the transfer going through an FFL. I may receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana or Mississippi. For handguns, I may only receive the transfer from an FFL in Louisiana, as that is my state of residence.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

A citizen can transfer a long gun from any FFL in any state, so long as both state's laws are honored....

I agree with this statement, but it is not inconsistent with what I stated.

I am not certain that we are disagreeing, and it may just be the language used. When I say "interstate transfer", I mean that the firearm travels from the seller in one state to the buyer in a different state. I think that this is the accepted definition of "interstate". You seem to be addressing the residencies of the two parties, but in my view, if two parties from different states do a face to face transaction, it is not an interstate transfer.


All interstate transfers have to be completed through an FFL in the buyer's state. If you ship me any firearm (interstate), I have to receive it through an FFL in Louisiana(because I am in Louisiana) If you and I are standing face to face in a state other than Louisiana, that is not an interstate transfer, and that transaction can be completed through an FFL in the state we are in. And I suppose that you could ship a long gun to another state, and I could do the transfer through an FFL in that state--but that's not what most people think of when talking about buying a gun interstate. [this was added for technical clarity]

If the two parties are residents of different states, the transaction has to go through an FFL, regardless of where or how the transfer takes place. If it is a long gun, and the parties are together at the time, the transfer can take place through an FFL wherever they happen to be. If it is a handgun, it can only take place in the state of residence of the buyer.

D94R
February 2, 2011, 10:58 AM
"Face to face sales, if not an FFL, need be non one else's business. Buy and sell 5 or 500 and it's no one's business how much money you make or lose." Well, that's not always the case, it seems.

I said that. And, face to face sales being legal, we all assume the intentions of that comment are in regards to the fact that the entire sale of the firearm itself is legal. As in not across state lines, not fully automatic transfers to ineligable persons, not being sold to felons etc etc.

Don't twist the context of a comment as a misguided source to your thread. As my comment and the subject of your thread clearly aren't the same.

X-Rap
February 2, 2011, 11:36 AM
And this ladies and gentlemen is why we have a 5000 page health care bill and a tax code that fills a UHaul truck.
These people have a common interest in the discussion of 42 year old legislation.

leadcounsel
February 2, 2011, 12:31 PM
Here's another twist - can Tom Texan, while on vacation to Arizona, sell his handgun to Terry Texan, also on vacation to Arizona?

These laws infuriate me. Say Tom Texan is on vacation in Wisconsin and has his handgun (his only means of self defense) stolen. He cannot buy a gun anywhere except in Texas. What if isn't planning to return to Texas for a long time. He must remain unarmed until he returns to Texas. This, to me, seems like a clear violation of equal protections under the laws and flatly unconstitutional.

Sam1911
February 2, 2011, 12:37 PM
I believe the answer to that question is no. At least in reading the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.

An unlicensed person may transfer a firearm TO a resident of his state. (A resident...but doesn't say IN his state.)

BUT, an unlicensed person may only aquire a firearm IN his or her own state -- except from a dealer.

Odd way of putting it, but seems the answer is no.

CoRoMo
February 2, 2011, 12:55 PM
...the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.
The way the law is worded though, it appears that Tom & Terry Texan can buy and sell each other a firearm, while they are both on vacation in Arizona, but transporting or receiving that firearm back to Texas would violate the law. The sales transaction looks to be legal, but getting the gun back inside the state looks dicey. For some reason, I don't find the unlawful acts pertaining to purchasing, only transporting / receiving in the state of residency. Maybe I'm missing the right subsection though.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State...

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell... any firearm to any person ... who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides...

B3 shows that it is a violation for an unlicensed person to bring the gun back to their state.

B5 shows that the sales transaction, while taking place outside of the state, doesn't violate that law.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

After all, don't all our GunBroker transactions, even between same state residents, take place in Kennesaw Georgia?
:D

Sam1911
February 2, 2011, 12:57 PM
The way the law is worded thoughYeah. I wondered if maybe the ATF didn't insert a slightly different phrasing in their FAQ than was used in the law. But the cited a couple of different things and I didn't have time to look them all up.

Sam1911
February 2, 2011, 01:05 PM
Ah ha. It appears the Code of Federal Regulations cite specifies the trouble pretty clearly:

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of
firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State
where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity,
where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained
by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of
this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest
or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting
the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun
obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or
licensed collector in a State other than the transferee’s State of residence in
an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee’s premises obtained in conformity
with the provisions of § 478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained
in conformity with the provisions of §§ 478.30 and 478.97.

NavyLCDR
February 2, 2011, 01:29 PM
I believe the answer to that question is no. At least in reading the way it is worded in the ATF's FAQ.

An unlicensed person may transfer a firearm TO a resident of his state. (A resident...but doesn't say IN his state.)

BUT, an unlicensed person may only aquire a firearm IN his or her own state -- except from a dealer.

Odd way of putting it, but seems the answer is no.

And there's a reason for that...

State laws only apply within the borders of that state. For example, PA requires handgun private sales to go through an FFL. So, without the wording in Federal law the way it is, two PA residents could go to a nearby state, do the private sale there, and then return to PA - thus skirting the PA law.

In Ohio, private sales of handguns to 18 to 20 year olds is prohibited. Without the Federal law, an 18 yo Ohio resident could meet another Ohio resident across the border and buy the handgun and return home, thus skirting Ohio law.

Kenneth
February 2, 2011, 01:47 PM
Don't Iraqi citizens get to sell their assault rifles across province lines without having to worry about running afoul of laws written in "word salad" just to trip them up??? :banghead:

billybob44
February 2, 2011, 01:52 PM
It seems like it's written in perfectly clear English to me. Selling not only involves collecting the money, but you have to deliver the goods as promised to have a completed sale.

By shipping the gun to the dealer you have met the precise letter of the law. You have not delivered, sold, transferred a firearm to a prohibited out-of-state person. The sale is not a sale until the buyer takes delivery and the buyer does that from a licensed dealer. Read the part about "other than a licensed dealer." They've specifically listed who is exempt from the prohibitions and who you/we can send a gun to out-of-state.

"transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector)"

The sale is not complete until the FFL completes it by delivering the gun as specified in the law.

John
This is exactly what I am doing now. I am having a Rem. 700 sent to my FFL Dealer in Indy, from the seller in KY.
Has anyone heard that it IS legal for Non-Licensed citizens, from different AJOINING states, to buy/sell between each other, FTF, without having a FFL involved??

X-Rap
February 2, 2011, 01:54 PM
It seems that gun laws could be very simply written on one sheet of paper and taken for literal value but alas the states each want to skin the cat in a different way. I guess that is best but the federal laws should be easy.

NavyLCDR
February 2, 2011, 02:24 PM
Has anyone heard that it IS legal for Non-Licensed citizens, from different AJOINING states, to buy/sell between each other, FTF, without having a FFL involved??

Yep. I've heard it many times. It's not true, though.

Adjoining states has nothing to do with it - and hasn't had anything to do with it since 1986 when the Federal law was amended.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

billybob44
February 2, 2011, 02:53 PM
LT, as usual "You 'D' Man"! I've heard this adjoining state rumor from several, on other gun forums, since this deal that I am making has began.
I sent a signed FFL with the Postal Money Order to KY., and the seller is sending the 700 to my dealer(with the FFL), for me to pick up, in the Indy area.
My FFL Dealer+I are tight enough that we trade brass together+I worked his table at the last Indy 1500 Gun Show, here last month. We will work another 1500 in March. Thanks again NavyLT..Bill.;)

Jon Coppenbarger
February 3, 2011, 10:45 PM
yes LT that may be true but the person also sold hanguns if I remember it right which is not covered by the ammendment. man that guy travelled a long way from the top of the state of Ohio down into another state to do the tranaction. wonder how they connected originally?

Another twist is ffl to ffl transfers. you as a ffl dealer can not go to another state and sell firearms unless you do it in one of two ways.
#1 you have your firearms shipped to another ffl dealer in the state you wish to sell them in and the recieving ffl dealer handles transfers and then ships them back after the show.

#2 you take them into the state your self but when you sell a firearm in another state you must return to your state that you hold your ffl and then shipped sold firearm back to the state of the purchaser to a ffl holder from the purchasers state.

Remember even if you are a ffl holder it is illigal for the ffl holder to take possession of a firearm in a state he does not have his license in from a dealer who does not have a license in the state of purchase.

For example: say you are a ffl holder in texas and you travel to tulsa for the big gun show. you find a firearm you wish to purchase. the ffl holder you are buying the firearm threw actually holds his license in nebraska and has brought the firearms into the state himself. the ffl that is selling the firearm must return to his home state and ship said firearm to the ffl that purchased it which is texas. they can not just trade ffl's in tulsa.

So when you see a dealer at a show that you know for a fact he is not from your state it really makes you wonder how he is selling his firearms doesn't it?

NavyLCDR
February 3, 2011, 11:23 PM
yes LT that may be true but the person also sold hanguns if I remember it right which is not covered by the ammendment

I think you might have misunderstood my post and did not read the link I provided. ALL sales of firearms between non-FFL holding residents of differing states are illegal, regardless of if the states are contiguous or not and regardless of if the firearm is a handgun or a long gun.

The ONLY sales of firearms that are legal outside the state of residence of the purchaser or from a resident of a different state are long guns purchased and transferred by and at the place of business of an FFL, if the sale of the long meets the requirements of the state laws of both the purchaser and the FFL.

Jon Coppenbarger
February 4, 2011, 12:05 AM
yep I miss read the quote you used from the other poster.

BBQLS1
February 4, 2011, 10:14 AM
It sounds like he was trying to sell a handgun to someone in another state without using a FFL. That would be breaking Federal Law (Gun Control Act of 1968).

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