New Jersey looks to ban big bore muzzleloaders!


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Balog
January 1, 2004, 07:27 PM
I got this from an e-mail from the North American Hunting Club.

TRENTON, NJ—A New Jersey legislator has introduced a bill that would ban the use of .50 caliber and larger muzzleloaders.

The U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance (USSA) says Democratic Assemblywoman Loretta Weinberg is attempting to sneak Assembly Bill 3942 (AB 3942) through during the final days of the legislative session. The bill revises the definition of prohibited "destructive devices" to include muzzleloaders of .50 caliber or larger. Under the bill, muzzleloaders are listed in the same section of law as Molotov cocktails and self-propelled rockets.

In an effort to pacify muzzleloader owners, the USSA says Weinberg added a grandfather clause to the bill, allowing current muzzleloader owners to continue to use them.

New Jersey sportsmen should contact their assembly members and ask them to oppose AB 3942. To contact your assembly member, call (800) 792-8630.

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AZRickD
January 1, 2004, 07:40 PM
She tipped the gun-banner's hand.

This should be sent to hunters (golfers with guns) all over the country so they will learn that they are not immune and are, indeed, a target.

Rick

Balog
January 1, 2004, 07:54 PM
I really got a kick out of the part that listed them alongside Molotov's and RPGs. I wonder if even this could wake up the hunters?

Standing Wolf
January 1, 2004, 09:18 PM
Making .50 caliber muzzle loaders illegal will sure take a bite out of crime in New Jersey.

standingbear
January 1, 2004, 09:30 PM
im on a roll here..all fired up now.whats next compound bows,crossbows..sticks-n-stones?The people that sponser this crap really need to sit down and take a good -sobering look at history.The antigunners are going to keep flooding the senates with crap- more and more as the AWban conclusion comes back up for vote.

rdbrowning
January 1, 2004, 10:05 PM
You would think that in an area with as rich of a history of the Revolution as NJ that people would remember their high school lessons a bit better. Maybe they were never taught that it was mostly 50 - 75 caliber muzzle loader that won this country it's independce.:banghead:

Mark Tyson
January 1, 2004, 10:21 PM
Maybe they were never taught that it was mostly 50 - 75 caliber muzzle loader that won this country it's independce

Maybe that's why they want to ban them.

Someone please send a copy of this law to every hunter, skeet shooter and black powder enthusiast in the country.

edited for spelling

GigaBuist
January 1, 2004, 10:47 PM
In HTML format:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/A3500/3942_R1.HTM

In PDF format:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/A3500/3942_R1.PDF

The URLs make it look like a 2002 bill, but it's not. It was announced Dec 11, 2003.

Here's the page that gave me the links:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/bills/BillsByNumber.asp?BillNumber=3942

... I had do a little monkeying around with that last URL to make it work right. Don't know if there's any HTTP session issues with it or not.

P95Carry
January 1, 2004, 10:52 PM
Quite incredible ....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

yep ... this'll sort out those homicides and general crime figures for sure.:banghead:

Baba Louie
January 1, 2004, 11:08 PM
Wait till someone figures out the caliber equivalent of a 20 or 12 ga.
Oh. My. God. LORETTA!

Nightfall
January 1, 2004, 11:13 PM
Yes, send this to every 'they don't really want them all, just the crime guns' reasonable gun control person you know. Show them that they're after every last gun, be it the .50 cal belt-fed down to the bright colored squirt gun. It'll never end. Ever.

deanf
January 1, 2004, 11:18 PM
why?

standingbear
January 2, 2004, 12:00 AM
because they are a bunch of gun grabbing morons.because they want to be the only ones to decide whats best for everyone.because they are powerhungry and attention deprived waaaaa babies.

WonderNine
January 2, 2004, 12:04 AM
Making .50 caliber muzzle loaders illegal will sure take a bite out of crime in New Jersey.

Well you haven't seen any drive-by bayonetings since the AWB passed....have you? :scrutiny:

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
January 2, 2004, 12:12 AM
rdbrowning wrote:

You would think that in an area with as rich of a history of the Revolution as NJ that people would remember their high school lessons a bit better. Maybe they were never taught that it was mostly 50 - 75 caliber muzzle loader that won this country it's independce


It's sickening to see how far down people in this country have sunk. The weapons used to win our independence now outlawed by people who don't have a clue about any of it.

Or maybe the NJ legislature intends this as a symbolic blow against the 2nd Amendment by banning the weapons that were used to enable the writing of the US Constitution that once included it.

Sick, truely sick. And some arrogant grandees on the SCOTUS like Ginzberg and O'Connor make it all possible.

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 12:46 AM
whats next compound bows,crossbows..sticks-n-stones?Only sticks and stones over 1/2 inch in diameter.

Bill Hook
January 2, 2004, 12:59 AM
It's official - PRNJ is the worst sh--hole in the 50 states.

Ask your congressman to enact legislation to make NJ a nuclear and toxic waste repository.

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 01:00 AM
Wait till someone figures out the caliber equivalent of a 20 or 12 ga.
Oh. My. God. LORETTA!A 20 ga shotgun barrel is :eek: .60 caliber :what:

The law excludes shotguns, however.... except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes; ...

PeteyPete
January 2, 2004, 03:01 AM
It's official - PRNJ is the worst sh--hole in the 50 states.

Ask your congressman to enact legislation to make NJ a nuclear and toxic waste repository.

As a NJ resident..i'd support this legislation. Once I get the chance, i'm moving to Texas.

Jim March
January 2, 2004, 03:21 AM
You see, the issue here is that the New Jersey legislature wants to maintain an absolute monopoly on being Big Bores.

:rolleyes:

(Variation on a California joke as to why ferrets are still banned: the legislature wants to maintain a monopoly on weaselliness.)

geekWithA.45
January 2, 2004, 08:59 AM
Ah, Loretta Wienberg....our very own Fienstien wannabe. What's the expression? Teacup tyrant?

IIRC, she was one of the sponsors of the odious "smart" gun law.


As I understand it, the actual target of this redefinition of destructive device is the .50 bmg, but what the hell, lets take out muzzle loaders and the .50 ae while we're at it.

OHH! Don't worry! We'll put in a grandfather clause!

Well, this might get the ANJRPC to line up with them, but this is the SAME pattern that has followed every other bill in this god forsaken places since 1966.

The mantra of _most_ (but not all) of the progun groups in this state has been "additional legislation is innevitable, so lets get on board and try to control if from within". What do they get for their effort? Some bizarre and very narrow exemption that is predicated on phases of the moon.

All I can say about NJ is:

Most of the gunowners stayed in bed last election, and they've missed their chance to throw the bums out. They soundly re-elected their gun bigots, and handed them majorities of both houses.

The window of change for the next couple of years is now closed, the bigots have free reign to run amok, and NJ will be collecting their rewards for an extra hour sleep for decades.

The few remaining guys of decency and valor who are willing to step up to the plate here are vastly and hopelessly outnumbered.

AnklePocket
January 2, 2004, 09:02 AM
It already is a toxic waste repository. If interested, do a search on "GEMS Landfill". Our esteemed county officials want to save money by running radioactive water through our sewer system to the treatment plant and out the Delaware River rather than treat the water on-site, siting acceptable levels of cancer producing toxins. No wonder they want us unarmed.

Ky Larry
January 2, 2004, 09:07 AM
All I can say is "***?":scrutiny:

nico
January 2, 2004, 10:53 AM
I'd love to see one of the morons who supports this bill try to give a list of crimes commited with muzzle loaders, or explain how a muzzle loader is more dangerous than the typical hunting rifle.

7.62FullMetalJacket
January 2, 2004, 11:36 AM
It's .50 caliber...it MUST be destructive :rolleyes: :what: :barf:

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 12:13 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again: The manufacturers of current .50 cal firearms simply have to reconfigure them as .4999 cal firearms and note in the owner's manual that "in the absence of the availability of .4999 cal ammunition, .50 cal ammunition may be used as a substitute."

7.62FullMetalJacket
January 2, 2004, 01:06 PM
That will not help the .54 and up crowd

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 01:12 PM
Yeah, but that is not what they are trying to ban. It is the Barretts, et al that they are after.

There is always the possibility that the muzzleloaders will get a bill before the legislature showing the folly of the inclusion of muzzleloaders and get an exemption for them.

Nos so with cartridge firearms.

Mark Tyson
January 2, 2004, 01:26 PM
I don't know much about muzzle loaders, but aren't most of them .50 and over to begin with?

P95Carry
January 2, 2004, 01:31 PM
Most longarm M/L's Mark start at .45 cal. Then .50 and up .....

Malone LaVeigh
January 2, 2004, 01:41 PM
C'mon, California legislators, NJ's getting ahead of us again. Time to step up to the plate. Perata must be snoozing.

I know we can win the race to the bottom.

BenW
January 2, 2004, 01:56 PM
C'mon, California legislators, NJ's getting ahead of us again. Time to step up to the plate. Perata must be snoozing.
Geez, no kidding. Calif is beginning to look like gun owners paradise in comparison to some of the stuff I've seen coming out of Jersey. Maybe Perata doesn't want to ban them because he figures he can charge muzzloader shooters a $0.15 per component "safety fee" for balls, powder, and caps. Though I can't recall the last time I heard of a coonskin capped bank robber pulling a five foot long flintlock and demanding a teller hand over their wampum and vittles....

This really should be spread around the hunting forums. Don't most states have a .50cal minimum for big game muzzleloader hunting? Were this to become law, it would effectively end the primitive hunting season in Jersey and states that followed New Jersey's lead. And of course start a big production run of .49 caliber guns.

Russ
January 2, 2004, 02:11 PM
Malone,

Don Perata isn't snoozing, he already knows that Jack Scott (from my hometown no less) probably has a bill in the pipeline to ban those evil calibers. So many grabbers to choose from, where does one start. He's just waiting to run for Congress when he gets term limited out. He needs to go back to P.C.C. or retire.

California is a wonderful example of how well gridlock worked with a Democrat controlled Legislature and Republican Governors. When Gray Davis got there, the down hill trend for gun rights sped up rather quickly. Don't know why Gov. (Moonbeam) Jerry Brown never got to this other than the times were different. To be fair to the to the Democrats in California, the huge RINO Dan Lundgren would have been just as bad for 2A. He lost because there was a real Democrat in the race. The best that Arnold the Governator can do is to stay away from this issue. Somehow, I don't think this will happen. Jack Scott still has many more anti gun bills in him. When does he get to banning shotguns? Wasn't his son killed by one?

Beware of he politicians with a vendetta like Jack Scott and Carolyn McCarthy.

carpettbaggerr
January 2, 2004, 02:18 PM
"Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. So are airguns considered firearms in the great state of New Jersey? No wonder there's no crime there. :barf:

Balog
January 2, 2004, 02:51 PM
or is ignited by compressed air

*** does this mean? Is there any gun that uses compressed air to ignite? Or is this more "plastic gun" legislation that bans something that doesn't exist?

Malone LaVeigh
January 2, 2004, 03:15 PM
I found out this X-mas when I bought an air rifle and pistol for my son that air rifles can't be fired inside of city limits in Cal. Maybe we're not as far behind as I thought.

Bainx
January 2, 2004, 03:47 PM
... except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes; ...
That is, until those jerks figure out what a SLUG is!;)

P95Carry
January 2, 2004, 04:18 PM
recognized as suitable for sporting purposes Yeah ... the slug deal. I guess with the ever blurring of distinction between ''sporting'' and ''assault'' ..... helped along by media hype ...... the slug round will be given same status as HP bullets.

''Chip - chip - chip'' ............................ http://www.bedford.net/design/images/smilies/ticktick2_main.gif :(

Balog
January 2, 2004, 04:22 PM
Especially those evil "armor piercing" saboted slugs. :rolleyes:

standingbear
January 2, 2004, 04:55 PM
define "elastic band"

AnklePocket
January 2, 2004, 05:02 PM
What would the THR be like if it (and the internet, of course) existed in 1935 Germany? I'm fleeing New Jersey this summer just like my intelligent ancestors did. The sheeple stayed, I guess. Any similarities or am I just being insane? If I'm being insane it's clearly because of your influence. Wait, I think that they called my ancestors insane who fled. Nevermind. I'll quit while I'm way behind.
I was in the Warsaw Ghetto myself in a past life, by the way.
Time to add another signature line.

P95Carry
January 2, 2004, 05:04 PM
define "elastic band" :confused:

Maybe ..... ''Assault slingshot''

Highly adaptable music group? :p

Temporary tourniquette.

Skunk's tactical emergency pants restraint!?:D

Squirrel bungee? .... :)

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 05:06 PM
*** does this mean? Is there any gun that uses compressed air to ignite? Or is this more "plastic gun" legislation that bans something that doesn't exist?Actually, Daisy some years ago experimented with a BB that had attacced to it a form of guncotton that would ignite from the pressure of the BB gun. Air heats as it is compressed and cools as it is released. G&A or one of the other magazines did a full write-up on the subject and stated that Daisy was claiming muzzle velocities in the 1,200 fps range; or about the same as a .22. This was from a standard BB gun.

Jake
January 2, 2004, 06:13 PM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/107302627723390.xml

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 06:24 PM
AUN: Sponsor of gun bill won't pull trigger yet

Friday, January 02, 203

BY FRED J. AUN
For the Star-Ledger

A proposed new law that could have banned the sale or purchase of many muzzleloading rifles and the possession of many shotguns is being pulled from the state Legislature calendar and will not be introduced, said its sponsor.

Assemblywoman Loretta Weinberg (D-Bergen) said concerns expressed by hunters is prompting her to yank bill A-3942 less than a month after its introduction. As of Wednesday, the state Legislature Web site listed the bill as remaining active, but Weinberg said she "pulled the bill off the agenda."

"I do not plan to push this bill at this time because I think there are some questions," the assemblywoman said.

The state Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs was among the groups that came out against the bill, which was co-sponsored by state Assemblywoman Nellie Pou (D-Passaic) and introduced Dec. 11. The federation said the bill, as written, was "directly aimed at New Jersey big game hunters, re-enactors and muzzleloader enthusiasts."

In essence, the bill would have classified weapons of 50 caliber or greater as being illegal "destructive devices." Currently, the definition of those devices involves weapons of 60 caliber or greater.

An Assembly committee amended the original bill to provide exemptions for sportsmen and gun hobbyists. Antique guns were removed from the list of banned devices and people who lawfully possessed guns of 50 caliber or greater before the bill's date were also exempted.

But George Howard, the federation's conservation director (and a member of the state Fish and Game Council), said loopholes remained. He said his reading of the bill led him to believe it would have barred the future sale, disposal and use of more than 90 percent of the muzzleloaders and many of the shotguns -- those with rifled barrels -- in use by New Jersey sportsmen to hunt bear. A 20-gauge shotgun measures about 61 caliber and a 12-gauge shotgun is about 70 caliber.

In a Christmas Eve "legislative alert," Howard alleged the bill "was rushed through the committee just immediately after New Jersey's highly publicized first black bear hunt in 30 years." Weinberg said she is not against hunting and insisted the bear hunt had nothing to do with it. She said she was asked -- by some of her staffers -- to sponsor the bill as an anti-terrorism measure.

"The way I understand it, there were certain kinds of large-caliber guns that are not used for hunting, and one bullet from them can blast a lot of people or a lot of things," the legislator said.

"It was designed to make sure those guns are not sold in New Jersey. ... But because there were some legitimate questions raised, I did not push this and it certainly is not going to get pushed through in the next session."

Howard said New Jersey's sportsmen must always stay on top of action in Trenton.

"These people are going to keep coming at us and they will use any means they can," he said, referring to anti-hunting groups. "Legislation is a big thing for us now -- both answering the attacks and getting legislation passed that's favorable to sportsmen."

Fred J. Aun covers the outdoors for The Star Ledger. He can be reached at outdoors@starledger.com. http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/107302627723390.xml

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 06:30 PM
"The way I understand it, there were certain kinds of large-caliber guns that are not used for hunting, and one bullet from them can blast a lot of people or a lot of things," the legislator said. Spoken like a true know-nothing firearms restriction agendist.Howard said New Jersey's sportsmen must always stay on top of action in Trenton.

"These people are going to keep coming at us and they will use any means they can," he said, referring to anti-hunting groups. "Legislation is a big thing for us now -- both answering the attacks and getting legislation passed that's favorable to sportsmen." Ya think they are starting to wake up and realize that we were correct when we told them "You're next!"? I wonder how many of them are now starting to wonder if it might not have been a good idea to support us when our firearms were under attack.

P95Carry
January 2, 2004, 06:46 PM
"I do not plan to push this bill at this time because I think there are some questions," the assemblywoman said. Wow!! What a wonderfully (sic) magnanimous gesture! Or maybe a way to pull out whilst trying to save face!

These people amaze me ..... they'd come up with ''assault'' bows and arrows given half a chance.:barf:

AnklePocket
January 2, 2004, 06:52 PM
Wonder if it was my personal letter. Probably not although I can't replicate it on this public forum without breaking its rules. Please open up the following link at your own risk:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/Weinber.asp

jimpeel
January 2, 2004, 06:53 PM
"I do not plan to push this bill at this time ..."Meaning that she will push it at a more opportune future time when fewer people are watching.

7.62FullMetalJacket
January 2, 2004, 07:25 PM
Egads!!!!She is from California!!!!:barf:

No wonder. Is the fifth column moving around from the PRK to other states? :eek:

makarov1
January 2, 2004, 10:05 PM
Everyday I thank God I live in Dixie.

Bill Hook
January 2, 2004, 11:03 PM
Maryland was once considered part of the South. Betcha VA is next to go commie.

geekWithA.45
January 2, 2004, 11:18 PM
Some folks have asked whether BB guns are considered firearms in NJ.

YES, THEY ARE CONSIDERED FULL BLOWN FIREARMS IN NJ.

You need a FID to purchase a Red Ryder.

You need a FID and a Pistol Purchase Permit to purchase a BB pistol.

All laws regarding storage, where and by whom they can be shot, and how they can be carried apply, without distinction, as if they are full blown firearms.

I'm not exaggerating.

It's the law.

7.62FullMetalJacket
January 2, 2004, 11:19 PM
Maryland was both North and South, depending on whose flag was flying in the town square.

Virginia is a whole different story.

Geekwitha45, you have my sympathy. How can a kid grow up like that? Are you required to be 21 to buy a red ryder bb gun? And (laugh) get permission?

P95Carry
January 2, 2004, 11:36 PM
Geek .... amazing! What you refer to re BB guns is actually WORSE than any restrictions in UK pre ''ban'' in '97. In fact even now i think they are only slowly making those type of ''guns'' restricted.

''Draconian'' ain't in it!:(

Is NJ actually still in the US of A I wonder ... well, along with CA. (No offence intended to irstwhile THR members from those states)

geekWithA.45
January 2, 2004, 11:37 PM
7.62: Praise the Deity, I did not grow up here, nor shall my kids.

As for the BBguns, 18 for a Red Ryder, 21 for a BB pistol.

(Fortunately, you can legally buy a BB pistol out of state @ 18, and personally bring it in yourself)

And while everyones still gaping in awe and wonder at the majesty and wisdom of NJ gunlaw, I probably ought to add that it took the guys down at Paintball supply inc. 5 years and I don't know how many dollars in lawsuits to get the state to agree that Paintball guns are not bb guns, and therefore aren't firearms.

Again, I poop you not.

nico
January 3, 2004, 02:43 AM
can someone please explain to me how these morons, who probably couldn't tell the difference between a 22lr cartridge and a shotgun shell, allowed to make laws based on what a gun shoots? :fire: :banghead:

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
January 3, 2004, 05:51 AM
These people amaze me ..... they'd come up with ''assault'' bows and arrows given half a chance.


Yes they will. I recall a Chicago assemblyman discussing the S&W 500 when it came out describe it as a "military style assault revolver" that could become the "gang-banger terrorist's weapon of chioce."

Where are the NRA and GOA media campaigns to counter these people? Would a full page ad in the NY Times explaining the truth about muzzle loaders have been impossible to procure?

greyhound
January 3, 2004, 09:11 AM
weapons

Thats the key word. The leftists truly believe that in this "post-modern" day and age, there is no need whatsoever for civilized people to possess weapons.

You can't argue with them as their argument is emotional not logical.

Meanwhile, post 9/11, sniper shootings, terror alerts, etc. more and more people are arming themselves in the US.

Go figure:)

makarov1
January 3, 2004, 03:18 PM
7.62 is right about Virginia. Vast Cultural differences exist between VA and MD. Since so much of Virginia is mountainous, the state is just chock full of gunowners, and the current governor realizes this with his pro RKBA stances. Even around more populated areas like Richmond and Hampton Roads there isn't a hostile view towards gun ownership, as hunting and target shooting is a popular pastime among Virginia suburbanites.

Most residents in Northern VA counties near D.C. have a negative, if not hostile view towards guns and gun ownership by non LEOs. These are primarily transplants from the north in Northern VA for the region's booming job market. Fortunately, goofy laws that were granfathered in some Northern Va Counties will not have an effect on the rest of the state. Many in rural Virginia, particulary in isolated communities in the Southwest(Appalachia), Southside, and the Eastern Shore(Accomack-Northampton) don't have a lot of material wealth, so their guns are some of their most prized possessions.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but Virginia is a whole different animal than MD, and vastly different than the PRNJ. It is truly disturbing that authorities in the PRNJ are putting their heightened level of ignorance on display by considering BB guns "firearms" and by introducing bills to ban muzzle loaders. Those PRNJ idiots take ignorance to a whole new level.

mtnbkr
January 3, 2004, 03:56 PM
Most residents in Northern VA counties near D.C. have a negative, if not hostile view towards guns and gun ownership by non LEOs.

Oh, I dunno about that. I've met very few antis in my 7 years in NoVa. Heck, I got into guns and hunting after moving here. Every place I've worked, had an active group of shooters as well.

I know more shooters in NoVa than I do in SW Va (Roanoke area).

I know it doesn't prove anything, but it's been my experience.

Chris

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
January 3, 2004, 07:52 PM
Maryland was once considered part of the South. Betcha VA is next to go commie.

It's already started. Alexandria is starting to look like Berkley East, and most of the counties surrounding D.C. are as liberal as anything in Maryland. Then there is Hampton Rhodes and Richmond to factor in to the Liberal equation.

Balog
January 3, 2004, 08:08 PM
makarov1 wrote:Since so much of Virginia is mountainous, the state is just chock full of gunowners

Pardon my confusion, but what's the correlation between living in the mountains and owning firearms?:confused:

ctdonath
January 3, 2004, 08:34 PM
http://www.muzzleloader-guns-glj.com/5close.jpg
(http://www.muzzleloader-guns-glj.com/LongLand.htm) Only a hunter would want to use it.
New Jersey wants to ban it.
Do you get it yet?

mtnbkr
January 3, 2004, 08:36 PM
Pardon my confusion, but what's the correlation between living in the mountains and owning firearms?

Lots of hunting/hunters. Lots of remote homesteads. Lots of isolated communities, lots of mountain folk that still remember how the revenuers came after their pappy (or busted their 5000gal still just last week) for making a little 'shine, etc.

The mountain areas of Va are quite similar to West "By God" Virginia in terrain and mentality.

Chris

gundam007
January 3, 2004, 11:22 PM
they should ban their mouths then. they're big bore and you want to load them by the muzzle with socks

Balog
January 3, 2004, 11:42 PM
Durn revenuers. Buggers arrested Miller too.

spartacus2002
January 4, 2004, 09:57 AM
Hampton Roads may be a welfare state unto itself in mindset, but it's a fairly pro RKBA in many respects, thanks to a vocal minority.

Local Bass Pro Shops/ Outdoor World opened in Hampton recently. It had signs up stating that any firearms brought in had to be unloaded and left with the manager. Virginia Citizen's Defense League made a big stink, and initiated a letter-writing and emailing campaign. Outdoor World changed their policy in a hurry to let CCW permit holders carry in the store.

ballistic gelatin
January 6, 2004, 04:42 PM
She said she was asked -- by some of her staffers -- to sponsor the bill as an anti-terrorism measure.And that's really all it takes to get something put before the lawmakers. It doesn't have to make sense.

7.62FullMetalJacket
January 6, 2004, 04:54 PM
Yeah, those terrorists are big on muzzleloaders. :rolleyes: I mean, why have an AK-47 when you can get an American-made .54 cal muzzloader. :uhoh:

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