[telewinz]

AMC is showing ZULU, the Martini-Henry (and Webley MKVI) at its finest.:)

[Backwoods]

Great movie! I watched "The Longest Day" which was on just before "Zulu". Don't know what comes next but I'm hoping for another first class film.

Don in Ohio

[G.I.Jew]

I think AMC is playing tons of war movies today.

[4v50 Gary]

As a kid, I loved that flick. Gotta love the SMLE in one scene too. :)

[Mike Irwin]

Gary,

Wasn't that Zulu Dawn with the SMLE?


I'm pretty sure, too, that about 75% of the MHs shown in the movie are wrong.

They're long-lever MHs, which were brought out to rectify the problems caused by prolonged firing when extraction became stiff.

[Bill Hook]

Webley Mk VI isn't correct either. Shouldn't this be an .476 Enfield revolver or a Webley Mk IV or V?

[Mike Irwin]

That wasn't a Webley Mk VI in the movie, I don't believe.

The Mark VI had a square butt, and I distinctly recall a bird'shead grip, which would make it more than likely a Mk. III or IV.

The Mark V was far too late, having been adopted in, I believe, 1915 or so, with the Mark VI very shortly afterwards.

In any event, a Webley of any kind wasn't proper.

The Webley Mk I was adopted in 1887.

I'm not certain, but I don't think the .476 cartridge was adopted until after Rorke's Drift, either...

[telewinz]

Watched the movie a million times, although its not correct for that time period he is using a MKVI Webley. I use to have both firearms in my collection and would sit in my chair armed with both "helping" them out, I think it was the decisive action that turned the battle around.:D

[Bruce in West Oz]

"If it's a miracle, Colour-Sergeant, it's a short-chambered Boxer Henry .45 calibre miracle."

"And a bayonet, Sir, with a lot of guts behind it."

:D (It's been on cable for the past month!)

[axeman_g]

Good movie, but I had no idea the pieces were not period. so I learned alot today, but when is it ever going to be useful??

I am not bustin stones here, but my gawd, the depth of arcane gun knowledge here is amazing.

Thanks guys for enlightneing me ... I think. This will just give me another movie I wont be able to watch and another time period for me to study to make sure all movies/books set during this time are correct. This little bit of "knowledge" is probably the nugget to make my wife up and leave.

It is all of you guys fault.

Axe
:neener:

[hops]

Cool movie. About 1 pct of all Victoria Crosses awared, were awarded in that single action alone. About 10 pct of the participants in that actions received a VC. Pretty amazing.

[Roadkill]

The book the movies were based on is "The Washing of the Spears", deals with the Zulu tribal/military organization, the causes for the war, the destruction of the 1200 man column wiped out at Iswalandu and the battle at Rourke's drift. Movie is accurate to the book.

rk

[HankB]

I LOVE THIS MOVIE!

If you look closely - especially when you get a front-quarter shot of the guys in multiple ranks - you'll see the guys in the rear ranks are NOT using Martinis. I'm not up on vintage Brit hardware, but there was some sort of bolt action in the ranks for sure. (Probably didn't have enough Martinis.)

Also understand that the guy who played the Zulu chief in the movie is the actual chief of the Zulus today.

I've been told some of the Zulu warriors are wearing wristwatches - their pay as "extras" in the movie. Haven't spotted it myself yet . . . maybe it's time to watch the DVD again.

[Mk VII]

in some prints there is a piece at the end of the credits saying that extras were provided by the Witwatersrand Rifles, who would doubtless still have had Lee-Enfields at the time.
Chief MANGOSUTHU GATSHA BUTHELEZI played Cetshwayo; he is the King's great-grandson.

[Sunray]

"...the SMLE in one scene too..." No SMLE's at either battle. Martini-Henry's only. Zulu is about Roarke's Drift, Zulu Dawn, Isandhlwana. Isandhlwana took place three hours before the Drift battle. Both in 1878. No Mk III Enfields.

[Mike Irwin]

Rorke's Drift happened January 22-23, 1879.

We know there were no Lee-Enfields at the battle. The question was which movie showed a Lee-Enfield.

A Lee-Enfield also wouldn't have been proper, as the Lee-Metford predated the Lee-Enfield by some years.

[Willard]

You can see one or two Enfield variants in scenes in Zulu-don't know if they are Lee-Metfords or Long Lees. They do not appear to be No1's, 4's, or 5's, though.

[Bill Hook]

Okay, the correct revolver would be a Deane & Adams solid frame, as the #1 Enfield .476 wasn't out until 1880 and Webley Mk I wasn't available until 1887, both of which were break-open designs.

[telewinz]

Are you related to the "Hook" in the movie (congrats on the VC)? Thanks for serving your Queen and Country.:D

PS: Lay-off the booze.

[Parker Dean]

"Company will fix bayonets!"



"FIX BAYONETS!"



"ATTEN-----TION!!!"


(cling-ding-ding)

you slovenly soldier you




:D

[SMLE]

Chard in fact had an Adams revolver, not sure what Bromhead carried. The MkVI Webleys used are anachronisms. There are a couple of Magazine Lee Enfields or Magazine Lee Metfords in the background of a few shots. The property Dept. modified them to use Martini Henry bayonets. The "proper" rifles would have MkII MHs with socket Bayonets, Colour Sergenat Bourne "should" have had a sword bayonet on his rifle. In the actual fight, Bourne was in his early 20s and was know as the "kid". He later went on to be a strong advocate of civilian rifle training and organized a number of rifle clubs back home in GB. Nigel Greene, the actor who portrayed Bourne, was born in South Africa and was of service age at the height of WWII. Just watching the way Greene handles his rifle, I would be willing to bet he served in HM Forces during the war.
Maurice Micklewhite Jr. AKA Michael Caine, served in the London Fusilers and saw combat in Korea.
Somewhere, I have a picture of Sergeant-Major Hook of the Royal School of Musketry, Hythe. It would seem that "Hooky" reformed somewhat later on.

[Mike Irwin]

I read an article some years ago that the portrayal of Hooky in the movie was completely and totally false, and pissed the family off so badly that they sued the producers of the movie.

That claim is out on the web somewhere, but I've never made any attempt to verify it.


Here's a nice site regarding Martini Henry rifles, including a rather curious quote from Lord Chelmsford, not long before he found out how impressed the Zulus were with the rifle. :)

http://www.martinihenry.com/


Another thing about the movie that I thought to be interesting was it showing the soldiers wrapping their thumbs around the wrist of the stock. The scallop on the right rear of the action is where the thumb goes during firing. If you wrap your thumb over top of the wrist, you stand a good chance of the recoil driving your thumb into your nose.

[telewinz]

It is with great sadness that I must point out to you that you are in error. It was a Webley MKVI. Don't make me play my DVD of the movie.:D

MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI,MKVI!

[Mike Irwin]

Tele,

Yes, it appears that he had a Mk VI in the movie (I could have sworn it was a bird's head butt Mk IV), but that revolver is only 35 years too late to have seen the battle...

[telewinz]

Two Adams Revolvers neither is a top-break

[LawDog]

Zulu has some of my all-time favorite quotes. They're just so darned...British.

Chard: "The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day."
Bromhead (In full smarm mode): "Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast."

Hughes: "Colour Sergeant! What's all that shooting?"
CS Bourne: "A rifle, Hughes."

Couple of nitpicks with the movie: the Zulu impi which attacked Rorke's Drift had actually been a reserve at Isandlwana, and thus had not actually participated in any fighting, or picked up any rifles.

The Zulu's firing down on the mission station were actually using obsolete 30+ year-old rifles used as trade goods by European settlers.

Alfred Henry (Harry) Hooks was actually the hospital cook at the time of the attack, and his defence of the hospital was a bit more heroic in real life than it was on the screen.

An interesting Internet resource for the Battle of Rorke's Drift can be found here:
http://rorkesdriftvc.com/index.html

LawDog

[telewinz]

Private Henry Hook's account, published in the Royal Magazine
Kindly supplied by Victorian Voices

Everything was perfectly quiet at Rorke's Drift after the column had left, and every officer and man was going about his business as usual. Not a soul suspected that only a dozen miles away the very men that we had said 'Goodbye', and 'Good luck' to were either dead or standing back-to-back in a last fierce fight with the Zulus. Our garrison consisted of B Company of the 2/24th under Lieutenant Bromhead, and details which brought the total number of us up to 139. Besides these, we had about 300 men of the Natal Native Contingent; but they didn't count, as they bolted in a body when the fight began. We were all knocking about, and I was making tea for the sick, as I was hospital cook at the time.

Suddenly there was a commotion in the camp, and we saw two men galloping towards us from the other side of the river, which was Zululand. Lieutenant Chard of the Engineers was protecting the ponts over the river and, as senior officer, was in command at the drift. The ponts were very simple affairs, one of them being supported on big barrels, and the other on boats. Lieutenant Bromhead was in the camp itself. The horsemen shouted and were brought across the river, and then we knew what had happened to our comrades. They had been butchered to a man. That was awful enough, but worse was to follow, for we were told that the Zulus were coming straight on from Isandhlwana to attack us. At the same time a note was received by Lieutenant Bromhead from the Column to say that the enemy was coming on, and that the post was to be held at all costs.

For some little time we were all stunned, then everything changed from perfect quietness to intense excitement and energy. There was a general feeling that the only safe thing was to retire and try and join the troops at Helpmakaar. The horsemen had said that the Zulus would be up in two or three minutes; but luckily for us they did not show themselves for more than an hour. Lieutenant Chard rushed up from the river, about a quarter of a mile away, and saw Lieutenant Bromhead. Orders were given to strike the camp and make ready to go, and we actually loaded up two wagons. Then Mr Dalton, of the Commissariat Department, came up and said that if we left the drift every man was certain to be killed. He had formerly been a sergeant major in a line regiment and was one of the bravest men that ever lived. Lieutenants Chard and Bromhead held a consultation, short and earnest, and orders were given that we were to get the hospital and storehouse ready for defence, and that we were never to say die or surrender.

Not a minute was lost. Lieutenant Bromhead superintended the loop-holing and barricading of the hospital and storehouse, and the making of a connection of the defences between the two buildings with walls of mealie-bags and wagons. The mealie-bags were good big heavy things, weighing about 200 pounds each, and during the fight many of them were burst open by assegais and bullets, and the mealies (Indian corn) were thickly spread about the ground. The biscuit boxes contained ordinary biscuit. They were big square wooden boxes, weighing about a hundredweight each. The meat boxes, too, were very heavy, as they contained tinned meat. They were smaller than the biscuit boxes. While all these preparations were being made, Lieutenant Chard went down to the river and brought in the pont guard of a sergeant and half a dozen men, with the wagons and gear.The two officers saw that every soldier was at his post, then we were ready for the Zulus when they cared to come.

They were not long. Just before half past four we heard firing behind the conical hill at the back of the drift, called Oskarsberg Hill, and suddenly about five or six hundred Zulus swept round, coming for us at a run. Instantly the natives - Kaffirs who had been very useful in making the barricade of wagons, mealie-bags and biscuit boxes around the camp - bolted towards Helpmakaar, and what was worse their officer and a European sergeant went with them. To see them deserting like that was too much for some of us, and we fired after them. The sergeant was struck and killed. Half a dozen of us were stationed in the hospital, with orders to hold it and guard the sick. The ends of the building were of stone, the side walls of ordinary bricks, and the inside walls or partitions of sun-dried bricks of mud. These shoddy inside bricks proved our salvation, as you will see. It was a queer little one-storied building, which it is almost impossible to describe; but we were pinned like rats in a hole, because all the doorways except one had been barricaded with mealie-bags, and we had done the same with the windows. The interior was divided by means of partition walls into which were fitted some very slight doors. The patients' beds were simple rough affairs of boards, raised only half a foot above the floor. To talk of hospital and beds gives the idea of a big building, but as a matter of fact this hospital was a mere little shed or bungalow, divided up into rooms so small that you could hardly swing a bayonet in them. There were about nine men who could not move, but altogether there were about thirty. Most of these, however, could help to defend themselves.

As soon as our Kaffirs bolted, it was seen that the fort as we had first made it was too big to be held, so Lieutenant Chard instantly reduced the space by having a row of biscuit boxes drawn across the middle, above four feet high. This was our inner entrenchment, and proved very valuable. The Zulus came on at a wild rush, and although many of them were shot down they got to within about fifty yards of our south wall of mealie-bags and biscuit boxes and wagons. They were caught between two fires, that from the hospital and that from the storehouse, and were checked; but they gained the shelter of the cookhouse and ovens, and gave us many heavy volleys. During the fight they took advantage of every bit of cover there was, anthills, a tract of bush that we had not had time to clear away, a garden or sort of orchard which was near us, and a ledge of rock and some caves (on the Oskarsberg) which were only about a hundred yards away. They neglected nothing, and while they went on firing large bodies kept hurling themselves against our slender breastworks.

But it was the hospital they assaulted most fiercely. I had charge with a man that we called Old King Cole of a small room with only one patient in it. Cole kept with me for some time after the fight began, then he said he was not going to stay. He went outside and was instantly killed by the Zulus, so that I was left alone with the patient, a native whose leg was broken and who kept crying out, 'Take my bandage off, so that I can come'. But it was impossible to do anything except fight, and I blazed away as hard as I could. By this time I was the only defender of my room. Poor Old King Cole was lying dead outside and the helpless patient was crying and groaning near me. The Zulus were swarming around us, and there was an extraordinary rattle as the bullets struck the biscuit boxes, and queer thuds as they plumped into the bags of mealies. Then there were the whizz and rip of the assegais, of which I had experience during the Kaffir Campaign of 1877-78. We had plenty of ammunition, but we were told to save it and so we took careful aim at every shot, and hardly a cartridge was wasted. One of my comrades, Private Dunbar, shot no fewer than nine Zulus, one of them being a chief.

From the very first the enemy tried to rush the hospital, and at last they managed to set fire to the thick grass which formed the roof. This put us in a terrible plight, because it meant that we were either to be massacred or burned alive, or get out of the building. To get out seemed impossible; for if we left the hospital by the only door which had been left open, we should instantly fall into the midst of the Zulus. Besides, there were the helpless sick and wounded, and we could not leave them. My own little room communicated with another by means of a frail door like a bedroom door. Fire and dense choking smoke forced me to get out and go into the other room. It was impossible to take the native patient with me, and I had to leave him to an awful fate. But his death was, at any rate, a merciful one. I heard the Zulus asking him questions, and he tried to tear off his bandages and escape.

In the room where I now was there were nine sick men, and J was alone to look after them for some time, still firing away, with the hospital burning. Suddenly in the thick smoke I saw John Williams, and above the din of battle and the cries of the wounded I heard him shout, 'The Zulus are swarming all over the place. They've dragged Joseph Williams out and killed him.' John Williams had held the other room with Private William Horrigan for more than an hour, until they had not a cartridge left. The Zulus then burst in and dragged out Joseph Williams and two of the patients, and assegaied them. It was only because they were so busy with this slaughtering that John Williams and two of the patients were able to knock a hole in the partition and get into the room where I was posted. Horrigan was killed. What were we to do? We were pinned like rats in a hole. Already the Zulus were fiercely trying to burst in through the doorway. The only way of escape was the wall itself by making a hole big enough for a man to crawl through into an adjoining room, and so on until we got to our inmost entrenchment outside. Williams worked desperately at the wall with the navvy's pick, which I had been using to make some of the loopholes with.

All this time the Zulus were trying to get into the room. Their assegais kept whizzing towards us, and one struck me in front of the helmet. We were wearing the white tropical helmets then. But the helmet tilted back under the blow and made the spear lose its power, so that 1 escaped with a scalp wound which did not trouble me much then, although it has often caused me illness since. Only one man at a time could get in at the door. A big Zulu sprang forward and seized my rifle, but I tore it free and, slipping a cartridge in, I shot him point-blank. Time after time the Zulus gripped the muzzle and tried to tear the rifle from my grasp, and time after time I wrenched it back, because I had a better grip than they had. All this time, Williams was getting the sick through the hole into the next room, all except one, a soldier of the 24th named Conley, who could not move because of a broken leg. Watching for my chance I dashed from the doorway, and grabbing Conley I pulled him after me through the hole. His leg got broken again, but there was no help for it. As we left the room the Zulus burst in with furious cries of disappointment and rage.

Now there was a repetition of the work of holding the doorway, except that I had to stand by a hole instead of a door, while Williams picked away at the far wall to make an opening for escape into the next room. There was more desperate and almost hopeless fighting, as it seemed, but most of the poor fellows were got through the hole. Again I had to drag Conley through, a terrific task because he was a very heavy man. We were now all in a little room that gave upon the inner line of defence which had been made. We (Williams and Robert Jones and William Jones and myself) were the last men to leave the hospital, after most of the sick and wounded had been carried through the small window and away from the burning building; but it was impossible to save a few of them, and they were butchered. Privates William Jones and Robert Jones during all this time were doing magnificent work in another ward which faced the hill. They kept at it with bullet and bayonet until six of the seven patients had been removed. They would have got the seventh, Sergeant Maxfield, out safely, but he was delirious with fever and, although they managed to dress him, he refused to move. Robert Jones made a last rush to try and get him away like the rest, but when he got back into the room he saw that Maxfield was being stabbed by the Zulus as he lay on his bed. Corporal Allen and Private Hitch helped greatly in keeping up communication with the hospital. They were both badly wounded, but when they could not fight any longer they served out ammunition to their comrades throughout the night

As we got the sick and wounded out they were taken to a verandah in front of the storehouse, and Dr Reynolds under a heavy fire and clouds of assegais, did everything he could for them. All this time, of course, the storehouse was being valiantly defended by the rest of the garrison. When we got into the inner fort, I took my post at a place where two men had been shot. While I was there another man was shot in the neck, I think by a bullet which came through the space between two biscuit boxes that were not quite close together. This was at about six o'clock in the evening, nearly two hours after the opening shot of the battle had been fired. Every now and then the Zulus would make a rush for it and get in. We had to charge them out. By this time it was dark, and the hospital was all in flames, but this gave us a splendid light to fight by. I believe it was this light that saved us. We could see them coming, and they could not rush us and take us by surprise from any point They could not get at us, and so they went away and had ten or fifteen minutes of a war-dance. This roused them up again, and their excitement was so intense that the ground fairly seemed to shake. Then, when they were goaded to the highest pitch, they would hurl themselves at us again. .

The long night passed and the day broke. Then we looked around us to see what had happened, and there was not a living soul who was not thankful to find that the Zulus had had enough of it and were disappearing over the hill to the south-west Orders were given to patrol the ground, collect the arms of the dead blacks, and make our position as strong as possible in case of fresh attacks.

One of the first things I did was to go up to the man who was still looking over our breastworks with his rifle presented to the spot where so many of the Zulus had been. I went up to him, and saw that he did not move, and that he looked very quiet. I went nearer and said 'Hello, what are you doing here?' He made no answer, and did not stir. I went still closer, and something in his appearance made me tilt his helmet back, as you sometimes tilt back a hat when you want to look closely into a face. As I did so I saw a bullet-mark in his forehead, and knew that he was dead.

I went away, and was walking up the dry bed of a little stream near the drift with my own rifle in my right hand and a bunch of assegais over my left shoulder. Suddenly I came across an unarmed Zulu lying on the ground, apparently dead but bleeding from the leg. Thinking it strange that a dead man should bleed, I hesitated, and wondered whether I should go on, as other Zulus might be lurking about. But I resumed my task. Just as I was passing, the supposed dead man seized the butt of my rifle and tried to drag it away. The bunch of assegais rattled to earth.

The Zulu suddenly released his grasp of the rifle with one hand, and with the other fiercely endeavoured to drag me down. The fight was short and sharp; but it ended by the Zulu being struck in the chest with the butt and knocked to the ground. The rest was quickly over.

There was no time to sit down and mope, and there were the sick and wounded as well as the rest to look after. So when the Commander-in-Chief arrived I was back at my cooking in my shirtsleeves, making tea for the sick. A sergeant ran up and said, 'Lieutenant Bromhead wants you.' 'Wait till I put my coat on,' I said. 'Come as you are, straight away,' he ordered, and with my braces hanging about me, I went into the midst of the officers. Lord Chelmsford asked me all about the defence of the hospital, as I was the last to leave the building. An officer took our names, and wrote down what we had done. When the relief had come up the men of the column were sent out to bury the Zulus. There were 351 dead blacks counted, and these were put into two big holes in front of the hospital. The column made the Kaffirs who were with them dig the trenches, but although they dug the holes they positively refused to bury the bodies. There were only a few badly wounded left, as the Zulus had carried off their wounded as they retired. A great many dead were found in a mealie field not far from the hospital.

As for our own comrades, we buried them. This was done the day after the fight, not far from the place where they fell, and at the foot of the hill. Soon afterwards the cemetery was walled in and a monument was put up in the middle. The lettering was cut on it by a bandsman named Mellsop, who used bits of broken bayonets as chisels. He drew a capital picture of the fight. Those who had been killed in action were buried on one side of the cemetery, and those who had died of disease on the other side. A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed, was buried outside the cemetery wall. I don't know why, except that he was not a regular soldier.


PRIVATE HENRY HOOK, 24th REGIMENT FEBRUARY 1905

[Mike Irwin]

Tele,

I'm getting confused as hell.

Originally we were talking about what revolvers were shown in the movie.

The Adams revolvers you show didn't make an appearance in the movie, even though they might have been at Rorke's Drift. No, they're not break-tops, they're double action percussion revolvers.

Another revolver of the time that could have been used would have been the Tranter.

Just also found this on moviemistakes.com

"Factual error: Stanley Baker (in the scene where he reloads his revolver) is shown using a Webley Mark VI - not issued until 1915."

I'm trying to scare up some screen shots that might show his handgun, but so far nothing.

[telewinz]

Chard in fact had an Adams revolver,
Just addressing post made by SMLE

Pic of Webley MK VI

[SMLE]

Just addressing post made by SMLE
Nice Webley, is it yours? That's certainly what Stanley Baker and Michael Caine were carrying in the movie. I meant to say the Lt., Chard carried an Adams in the actual battle. I have a picture of it around here somewhere.

[SMLE]

Here is a publicity still from the move.
http://www.pnc.com.au/~tarella/Mc

[Lone Star]

The Mk. VI Webleys were probably standing in for Webley-Pryse revolvers, which in silhouette often do resemble the later Mk. series.

The Pryse system employed two checkered knobs that had to be pressed inward to unlock and "break" open the revolver to eject spent rounds and reload. The famous Webley stirrup lock came later, with the Webley-Kaufman of about 1882.

The Adams that was used at that time WAS NOT the percussion style. It took .450 cartridges. There were two marks, and some were also the first revolvers sent to the newly-formed RCMP, then known as the Northwest Mounted Police. (Not that those Canadian constables had anything to do with the Zulu War...)

Because British officers bought their own revolvers, any good make that took (supposedly, anyway) the service .450 round was acceptable, and might have been carried.

It may be a clue that Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who wrote, "King Solomon's Mines" a few years after the Zulu War of 1879 equipped his explorers with Colt's Single-Action Army revolvers, mainly because they were deemed quite rugged by the standards of the day, and were easily repaired if something did go wrong. His rifle choices were also sound, and the men carried Bowie or London style hunting knives. The author was a veteran of the Zulu War. If you know Zulu tribal society (and I wrote a college paper on it), you can readily see many parallels between Umbopa's tribe in the book and the Zulu. The book is NOT the same as the movie versions, especially the 1950 one with Granger and Kerr and Richard Carlson. Frankly, the book is much better.

The "Zulu" movie had to use what guns it could locate in mid-1960's South Africa that were more-or-less correct in appearance. The same has been true of "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World" TV series, set in 1920. It was filmed in Australia, where some guns that they may have wanted to use weren't available from the prop house. Mostly, they did well, but the .303 carried by Marguerite Krux has a Monte Carlo stock! Not exactly 1920's style...But Lord Roxton's Webleys (nickled and with white grips) are usually Mk. VI's. In a few episodes, I think he may have WG's, as the studio got different guns on different occasions. Some of the Webleys shown are really MK. IV .38's not numbered in the government "Mark" series, and not made until 1927! The only true M1911 Colts are in close-ups. Later versions are usually used in shooting scenes.

Overall, movie makers do better than they once did. I recall one film set in the 1840's, against the Seminole, where the hero had a M92 (?) Winchester! It was made back in the 1950's, when more license was taken with regard to history.

Lone Star

[redneck2]

were the Zulu spears period correct?:)

[telewinz]

In my past I have owned AND shot a Webley MK IV (380) and a Webley MKVI drilled out to 45 Auto Rim. Over a period of time I traded them off. Both were very enjoyable, rugged guns to shoot and I regret getting rid of them. The high regard they enjoyed was very much earned, I'd take a Webley to a Colt ANYDAY, they had no shotcomings compared to the Colt. The MKVI to me is the most attractive revolver ever made.

[Orthonym]

One of my favorites, too! I'm tempted to start up my tape of it right now, just to spot the anachronisms. At least Smith-Dorrien's gallows has a cameo in it. That's a stationary radial in the Fokker Triplane in Waldo Pepper, too. Kinda made it hard to willingly suspend the old disbelief, 'specially when the sound track was making Oberursel/Clerget noises.

As everyone knows, it wasn't about the weapons. Once the Welshmen established musical superiority, there was no doubt of the outcome. Snork.

[LawDog]

As everyone knows, it wasn't about the weapons. Once the Welshmen established musical superiority, there was no doubt of the outcome. Snork.

Ahem.

In reality the24th Regiment of Foot was comprised mostly of Englishmen, only about 11% of the Regiment was WElsh. Out of 80+ men at Rorke's Drift, only 19 were Welsh.

And the regimental song was, The Warwickshire Lads, not Men of Harlech.

Sorry.

If it makes you feel any better, here is an MP3 of the band of the Royal Regiment of Wales singing Men of Harlech. It is being performed inside the church at Rorke's Drift, on the 120th anniversary of the battle.

http://rorkesdriftvc.com/myths/menofharlech.mp3

LawDog

[Mike Irwin]

"In reality the24th Regiment of Foot was comprised mostly of Englishmen, only about 11% of the Regiment was WElsh. Out of 80+ men at Rorke's Drift, only 19 were Welsh."

One Welshman could have taken the entire Zulu nation.

Throwing 19 Welsmen at them?

They never had a chance. :)

[Sunray]

You know, despite any firearm errors it's still the best movie ever made. It was suposed to be a Stanley Baker movie, but Caine, in his first starring movie, just took it over. Every time I see it, I want to run out and buy a Martini-Henry.