whats wrong with 10mm?


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i loves my gun
February 3, 2011, 11:57 PM
ive been lookin around and it just seems to me more people would rather have 9mm, 40s&w, 45 acp and .45gap whats the deal?

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Birdmang
February 3, 2011, 11:59 PM
The ammo isn't readily available like 9mm. You need to actively find it. The ammo is more expensive than most 9/.40.

GuysModel94
February 4, 2011, 12:05 AM
If you want some good info on the 10mm drop in on "GlockTalk" there are a lot of 10mm shooters over there, i own a Glock37 (45GAP) and really love the round, recoils like a 40 and hits like a 45. (before someone jumps down my throat, thats the company line).

Frozen North
February 4, 2011, 12:08 AM
When 9mm was hard to find, 10mm was non existent. Even FMJ practice ammo had dried up.

That is a weak reason though, .380 was almost as tough to find and people were still buying LCP and P3-at pistols like they were going out of style.

It was rough around here about a year ago! All we could find was .45acp and .357 reliably!

xr1200
February 4, 2011, 12:24 AM
basically 10mm started out in the early 80's and was used in custom 10mm auto, Don Johnson carried one in miami vice, called the bren ten http://www.bren-ten.com/website/ this gun staterd the whole 10mm thing.

I think its a cross between a cz75 and a s&w 59 in 10mm.

Then in the late 80's colt came out with 10mm delta elite and soon the fbi and a lot gun makers came out with 10mm versions , SW with the 1006.

Shortly after its adoption by the fbi and other police found it was to hard for smaller cops and women to control, so SW and the fbi got together and came out with the 40sw, that is simply a shorter downloaded 10mm.

This round in testing did everything the 10mm or the 9mm couldn't and was widely adopted.

Some after the 10mm excitement , went away and is only still chambered by a few holdouts like glock and smith revolvers etc.

Ammo and Brass supplies soon started to dry up and costs increased.

Basically 10mm is a great round and very accurate, its close to 357 mag in power and some loads exceed even 357 mag.

The problem is that 10mm is very hard on semi auto actions and is actually overkill for a defense load and at max loads its hard to control.

For defense loads it really needs to be downloaded to about 40sw loads, so the question is why even bother with the 10mm, basically 40sw replaced it.

A lot ppl still buy 10mm pistols but they soon find out the problems of owning one and will switch to a more controlable round. Also shooting 10mm brass and not recovering it cost a lot, not something you want to throw away.

This is why 10mm ammo is so expensive and hard to come by.

i loves my gun
February 4, 2011, 12:33 AM
good stuff

DasFriek
February 4, 2011, 12:55 AM
I actually love the 10mm as much as i do my 1911's in .45acp
But the cost of ammo and its rarity and a very slim choice in gun designs make it very hard to choose a 10mm over a .45 anymore.

But i do miss my G20, But besides home defense and range duty which i couldn't afford the full power loads i found it better to get it another home.

Hopefully one day ill see a 10mm design i just cant pass up and pray the ammo situation is better as im not gonna reload anytime soon.

McCall911
February 4, 2011, 03:05 AM
I'm a big 10mm fan, but I know this cartridge isn't for everybody. Not only is ammo somewhat hard to find and expensive, but there is also the recoil which some people apparently find objectionable. Also it's generally best suited for heavier frame guns, which might make it less than ideal for potential use as a CCW. Of course, with the notable exception of that pesky Glock. :D

Jed Carter
February 4, 2011, 05:06 AM
Nice write up on 10mm XR1200, there is a little devil in me that says I want a 10mm pistol, but not if I have to find and pay for ammo. 10mm is a novelty these days, I would not want it as my only pistol, but to round out a collection. As for .45GAP, why, only 3 pistols made to shoot it, G37, 38, 39.

mbruce
February 4, 2011, 07:51 AM
ive been lookin around and it just seems to me more people would rather have 9mm, 40s&w, 45 acp, reason im worried about it, is cause i was looking at olympic arms k10, they make 45gap conversion for the acp i think but ,thats the only reason i see not to get the 10mm, what do yall think, oh yea im putting this here cause its a semiauto-pistol round..seems appropriate

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37
I haven't read the above posts so sorry if already mentioned....

The Glock 10mm will convert into a .40 s&w (same mags too), and a .357 Sig. Not too bad of a combo ;-) See Lonewolf for more.

The only reason not to get a 10mm (and a .45GAP), IMO, is the lack of ammo in retail stores. Sure you can purchase millions of rounds online -- but my preference is to have the option of buying in most stores, buying online, and having a qty of reloading components to go with my caliber of choice. You will find that is why most prefer the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP. But you must ask yourself what kind of handgun owner are you....and will a 10mm fit into your "plan." I would definately have a 9mm, .40 s&w, .45acp before a 10mm and/or .45GAP -- again, based purely only ammo being readily available.

In a hypethetical situation I would think the 10mm is more popular than the 9, .40sw, .45acp

mbruce
February 4, 2011, 08:15 AM
Nice write up on 10mm XR1200, there is a little devil in me that says I want a 10mm pistol, but not if I have to find and pay for ammo. 10mm is a novelty these days, I would not want it as my only pistol, but to round out a collection. As for .45GAP, why, only 3 pistols made to shoot it, G37, 38, 39.
because the .45GAP a Glock based concept.... guess Sig's .357 caught on a little better with other manufactureres.

jmr40
February 4, 2011, 08:34 AM
10mm ammo is easily available here www.georgia-arms.com it is priced about the same as 45ACP. When all other ammo was hard to find they had plenty in 10mm.

I like the 10mm and feel it definately has a niche, but make no mistake it is a niche round. I don't see the point in a rifle. I own several handguns in 10mm, 9mm and 45. No 40's only because I do have 10mm's and don't see the need for both.

For general use the 9mm and 45 do almost anything I need a handgun round to do. The 10mm has a specific role for me. It is my hiking/camping pistol. I like having 357 mag power with 16 rounds available when in black bear country. Anywhere else and I carry either a 9 or 45 depending on my mood.

wow6599
February 4, 2011, 08:49 AM
Same here^

But, does anyone besides me feel like the 10mm is making a comeback......a resurgence of sorts? Way too good of a cartridge for its place with the mainstream shooting community.

HM2PAC
February 4, 2011, 09:03 AM
jmr40,

Thanx for the link, those prices are fantastic for fmj practice ammo.

GuysModel94
February 4, 2011, 09:03 AM
Wrong info on Glock being the only maker of platforms for the 10mm. Kimber makes a really nice 1911 stainless in 10mm.

mbruce
February 4, 2011, 09:41 AM
10mm ammo is easily available here www.georgia-arms.com it is priced about the same as 45ACP. When all other ammo was hard to find they had plenty in 10mm.

I like the 10mm and feel it definately has a niche, but make no mistake it is a niche round. I don't see the point in a rifle. I own several handguns in 10mm, 9mm and 45. No 40's only because I do have 10mm's and don't see the need for both.

For general use the 9mm and 45 do almost anything I need a handgun round to do. The 10mm has a specific role for me. It is my hiking/camping pistol. I like having 357 mag power with 16 rounds available when in black bear country. Anywhere else and I carry either a 9 or 45 depending on my mood.
That's a perfect post --

Mr. jmr mentions you can purchase all the rounds you can afford online, that he has other calibers (where ammo is readily available), and a 10mm fits into his "gun plan" as a hiking/camping pistol.

If you are a SHTF kind of handgun owner as I am ...then I strongly urge you to look at a gun that can quickly be converted to shoot multiple calibers (i.e., .40sw to 9mm), (10mm to .40sw to .357 sig), (.45ACP to .50GI!!!), etc. etc....

FN, SW MP, Glock, HK, XDM... are a few gun makers that have .40/9mm conversions.

jem375
February 4, 2011, 09:53 AM
actually the FBI 10MM handgun was the S&W model 1076 and I have a FBI turn in which still has the mag release whereas the gun will not fire with the mag out...

tinygnat219
February 4, 2011, 10:13 AM
10MM is a great round, but it has been relegated to the mists of the niche cartridges. If you want a 10MM today, you have a few choices: Glock, EAA Witness, and Custom 1911 manufacturers, along with S&W's 310 Nightguard (the 610 was recently discontinued). Other than that, you might be able to find a Bren-10 or something along those lines. The Glock 20 IMHO is the best gun for this round.

It's unfortunate that the great gun manufacturers stopped making guns for the round.

Ben86
February 4, 2011, 10:36 AM
The ammo is just not as easy to get, and the gun selection in 10mm is really limited. It's just about either a Glock or EAA Witness. No thanks, the practical three will do just fine for me.

swinokur
February 4, 2011, 11:42 AM
Ammo is more money, but it's easy to find. I can think of 3-4 manufacturers have plenty of it.

I have a G29SF. Possible slide damage is easily fixed with a more powerful recoil spring. I have Wolf non captured 21# spring and SS guide rod. Very smooth no issues. Even keeps your brass in the same county. My stock Glock spring worked fine as well. Use a 40 conversion barrel so cheap 40 can be used at the range and if SHTF I have plenty of 40 ammo on hand. I got a 4.5 inch barrel for woods use.

The 10mm is regaining some of it's popularity IMO.

Nushif
February 4, 2011, 11:46 AM
The 10mm is a fun round I think, but around here it is pretty much impossible to find. That's really the only thing holding me back from becoming a fanboy.

swinokur
February 4, 2011, 11:52 AM
some 10mm ammo vendors

www.doubletapammunition.com
www.buffalobore.com
www.georgia-arms.com
www.swampfoxgunworks.com

Geckgo
February 4, 2011, 12:11 PM
I'm of the crowd that would rather have the big 3, more specifically the 9mm and the 45ACP are all I can see myself buying in handguns as a defensive pistol. Maybe .380 and .22 toys down the line when the money situation is appropriate. My reasoning is not that it's hard to find, or even the expense, but I don't see why I would ever NEED anything other than the 9mm or 45ACP. Both rounds have been around for over 100 years and there is a reason that they are still here. I don't like to diversify my ammo selection, that would be my reason, to answer your OP.

TexasRifleman
February 4, 2011, 12:17 PM
It's money it seems to me. 10mm is my favorite auto round and pretty much all I shoot in 1911's.

At the reloading bench it's very versatile and pretty efficient with components. Other than brass initial cost it's pretty much the same as .40S&W loaded to USPSA major type loads.

The Georgia Arms ammo is very nice but unfortunately they have been out of stock for a VERY long time now.

Personally I think reloading is a "must have" if you go the 10mm route.

TonyT
February 4, 2011, 12:19 PM
10mm brass is not as common as the other you mentioned for reloading. The 10mm is a pretty stout round which I would not use for plinking.

wally
February 4, 2011, 01:58 PM
10mm brass is not as common as the other you mentioned for reloading

Yeah and the guns available for it, other than the revolvers launch, it great distances when ejecting making it hard to recover.

One of those great on paper ideas that just doesn't work for most folks. But the slightly shortened and downloaded 10mm became the .40S&W and the rest is history :)

I could buy all the 10mm ammo at any gun show around here and not come back with 500 rounds. Usually the same with .38 Super too.

wow6599
February 4, 2011, 05:33 PM
I broke down and bought 1000 new pieces of brass from Starline for around $150 last year. I already loaded all other calibers....... so the rest is no different - large pistol primers, .40 cal bullets and powder.
No problems here.

mbruce
February 4, 2011, 05:42 PM
I've heard of people standing on 20'x20' tarps...makes brass collecting simple....I'd probabaly stand on grey side up rather than blue side...of course if i was Top Shot around then it wouldn't matter --but i avoid drawing attention to myself -- LOL

Nushif
February 4, 2011, 05:45 PM
I could buy all the 10mm ammo at any gun show around here and not come back with 500 rounds. Usually the same with .38 Super too.

Funny anecdote on that one actually .. I was at the local gunshow this last weekend and was asking around for 10mm brass ...
The only merchant there who had any (which he actually found sorting through his other stuff) actually looked at me and with this pitying look gave me the entirety of his stock ... for free ... six pieces of brass. >.<

swinokur
February 4, 2011, 05:47 PM
Colt makes a very nice 1911 chambered in 10mm.

Delta Elite. Sometimes hard to find but they are out there. I have one coming in about 6 weeks (I hope)

HKGuns
February 4, 2011, 06:03 PM
Nobody makes them! Try to find one, then try to find ammo.

swinokur
February 4, 2011, 06:14 PM
I have a G29 and have ammo coming out of my ears. On line vendors are plentiful/ The guns are not hard to find. I found several on Gun Broker, I want a new one and my gun shop is getting 6 in in 6weeks. One of them is mine. This whole thing about ammo being hard to find is more Internet hype IMO. Having said that 10mm isn't for everyone. It is for me.

LoweInc
February 4, 2011, 06:20 PM
I can't wait to get my G20SF. It should be here in about two weeks. I have read about them long enough and can't resist converting to "the dark side". I will start reloading as soon as I can recover from buying the Glock. I figure 500 rounds of Ga. Arms "canned heat" and a 200 round varity pack from Double Tap should be enough for now. Best conclusion I have come to is to reload. PS. I have never shot a 10mm. Just sounds like something I needed. : )

swinokur
February 4, 2011, 06:27 PM
You may not need it, but you will like it!

It is a blast to shoot. literally

i loves my gun
February 4, 2011, 07:34 PM
so i sold my glock 19...along with some other stuff including my steyr spp(orignal) in 9x19 also(which i just added to the dont buy thread) at my local joint, but i still dont know what i want to replace them with, oh yea, has to have a rail or be able to ad one, to slap this little guy on there, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=571893

HM2PAC
February 4, 2011, 08:02 PM
So are you looking for a pistol, or a carbine rifle that chambers 10mm?

i loves my gun
February 4, 2011, 08:14 PM
pistol, i was looking at those carbines but as of now i do not have a pistol

HM2PAC
February 4, 2011, 08:20 PM
A pistol.....and you want to put the Docter red dot on it right?

What is this pistol for?
Plinking?
Hunting?

i loves my gun
February 4, 2011, 08:45 PM
yes, im more of a rifle person, so this will be my "do all" handgun(except hunt, i refuse to hunt with a pistol), i would also like it to be bigger than 9x19

wally
February 4, 2011, 10:07 PM
I've heard of people standing on 20'x20' tarps...makes brass collecting simple....

That'd do the job for all other calibers, but 40'x40' would be more like if for a lot of 10mm guns.

Ben86
February 4, 2011, 11:31 PM
I've heard of people standing on 20'x20' tarps.

That doesn't work for people like me that practice lateral movement while shooting.

Janos Dracwlya
February 5, 2011, 01:30 PM
One of my college roommates had an EAA Witness .40S&W back in the mid-90's and it would throw brass 40 feet. When we shot at this outdoor range, people would actually stop and watch, just to see his Witness throw that brass. Didn't seem to be a spring problem - the gun didn't recoil badly and never showed any wear as if the slide was slamming back too hard. It was something to see, though.

RGPM1A
February 5, 2011, 03:39 PM
I have been shooting 10mm handguns for more than 20 years.

IMHO it is one of the most versatile calibers available. You can load it down to powder puff and up to rip snorting 41 mag level loads. I use it mostly for plates and bowling pins - there is nothing better IMHO that a 10mm for pins. It is also a very accurate round when loaded hot. 6" plates at 100 yards are no problem.

The big drawback to 10mm as others have mentioned is that to shoot it a lot without going broke and to utilize its versatility you really have to roll your own. However you can buy reasonably priced Blazer 200 grain plinking ammo for about $20 to $26 a box of 50 rounds. Any SD rounds are crazy priced and not fit for normal SD use INMO due to over penetration and harsh recoil. However they are great for a backup sidearm for hunting or hiking.

As far as the round beating guns to death I would beg to differ. I have 10,000+ rounds of 1200 fps 200 grain JHP loads through my two 10mm handguns and they still run fine and have never broken.

I shoot 10mm in a 6.5" slab comped S&W M610 and comped Colt Delta Elite.

Mainsail
February 5, 2011, 06:56 PM
My G20SF is my backpacking gun and I liked it, and the 10mm round, so much I picked up a G29SF for daily carry. Ammo is available in town and from online vendors.

Because of the recoil issues, the FBI downloaded the round. S&W realized they could cut the case back to make it fit in 9mm sized guns and the .40 S&W was born. Glock proved that it was possible, with the G29, to put the 10mm into a smallish gun. I wouldn't want to reload the .40- it's a very high pressure round due to the shorter case.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the 10mm is here (http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html).

http://www.topohiker.com/2Gs.png

GLOOB
February 6, 2011, 01:15 AM
I wouldn't want to reload the .40- it's a very high pressure round due to the shorter case.
Ya know 10mm can be loaded to even higher pressure than .40, right?

Clark
February 6, 2011, 06:54 AM
The 10mm is the weakest case head I have tested.

The 25acp, 7.62x39mm with large Boxer primer pocket, and the 30 carbine are not much better.

The 40sw is a stronger case head than the 10mm, and this has a larger effect than the 10mm longer OAL that will fit in the magazines.

Peter M. Eick
February 6, 2011, 10:45 AM
Nothing is "wrong" with the 10mm.

It is just more expensive to shoot and more powerful then "most" folks can handle. Full power Norma level 10mm's loads are hot. 200 grns at 1200 fps out of a 1911 format gun is not something to treat lightly.

My experience as a long time 10mm shooter is folks are suprised at the power of full loads, can't handle it and immediately blame the round for bad accuracy or other problems. Since my custom Baer is a 1.5" guarantee at 50 yard gun, the accuracy problem is theirs not the gun. It is just more then they can handle.

The real beauty of the 10mm is if you reload (how else would you shoot 10mm) you can take it down to 40 short and weak levels and still have fun with your brawny 10mm's.

ET
February 6, 2011, 11:28 AM
I own several Glocks and carry a Glock 27 as my CC gun of choice. I usually carry 40s&w rounds in it, but with the conversion barrels that I own, I have carried 357sig & 9mm ammo in it. I like options, for that reason I have been looking at a 10mm conversion barrel for my Glock 21. I would have to replace the ejector before firing 10mm out of it, but that is easy enough to do. Then the G21 would fire 45acp, 10mm & 22LR (I bought an Advantage Arms 22Conversion kit that has been 100% reliable).

I might break down and purchase a G20 and forgo another conversion barrel, but that would postpone my Glock 35 purchase...Damn, too many guns & not enough money.

Weevil
February 6, 2011, 11:57 AM
Well I wouldn't recomend a 10mm for a newb or even an intermediate shooter, but if you've got the other calibers and want something different that everybody and their brother doesn't have it's a nice option.

To really get it's full potential though you need to be into reloading and once again I wouldn't recomend it as your first caliber to start learning on. Most factory loadings are watered down to .40 S&W levels. The .40 was actually based on the watered down 10mm loadings the FBI was using. The guys at S&W came up with the idea of shortening the brass since the load was not using as much powder, and now it would fit in a 9mm sized pistol rather than the bigger .45 size guns a 10mm required. The .40 then quickly surpassed it's parent and the rest is history.

10mm is an amazingly versatile caliber that can be loaded down to .40 levels or up to some really smokin' nuclear loads that reach the .357 magnum and even low .41 magnum levels. Something no other common pistol calibers are capable of. Bullet weights can go from 9mm type 135 gr all the way to 220gr .45 type of weights. The 10mm can be loaded for just about any purpose you want from a pistol.


And don't let people kid you that its some uncontrollable monster that'll rip your arm off. I've owned two 10mm both full-size.

My current 10mm a Glock 20

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/g20k1a.jpg

and a Witness I sold to a friend.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/witness10mmjp8x6_edited.jpg


Both offer excellent control and shootability even with the hottest nuclear loads.


Now the Witness loved to fling the brass into the next county but the G20 is no worse than any other pistol about throwing brass. There was a fix on the Witness where some owners were shorting the ejector but I never modified mine.


If you are aware of the 10mm's limitations especially as to ammo availability and that you can't just bop on down to Wally-World to buy a box of ammo but want the ultimate pistol caliber then you won't be disappointed.

SharpsDressedMan
February 6, 2011, 08:07 PM
I just spent an hour or so shooting full .44 mags in a 6.5" Ruger Anniversary Blackhawk, and a few not-quite-full-house loads from a 2 3/4" S&W 500 snubnose. I also have a Glock 20SF, and comparably, the Glock is a pussycat. The Glock 20 handles very well, and no one should get anxiety over shooting it. I think most every female pistol shooter I have ever met could handle the Glock 20.

Weevil
February 6, 2011, 08:17 PM
I'll bet money that those who say the 10mm's recoil is excessive have never actually shot one.

DammitBoy
February 6, 2011, 08:29 PM
Recoil? Hardly notice any in my paraordnance P16 10mm conversion.

ps - I picked up 500 rounds of 10mm at the last gun show I attended.

you can buy hornady 200 grain critical defense - 20 rounds for $24 - at Midway all day long...

dcarch
February 6, 2011, 08:39 PM
Absolutely nothing, so long as you can find it, and you don't get the anemic FBI load. A group of guys around here shoot comp with 10mm's a lot, actually, so it's not as hard to find ammo as you might think.

Bananna bore
February 6, 2011, 08:48 PM
The 10mm is the 44spl of the auto world. Less than the best-- until you start reloading for it. If you want to max it out, get a fully supported barrel. I have loaded my stock barrel to the 1500fps range with the 135 gr hp's with no trouble and am up to the multiple thousand round count. The 10 can handle "crack head bob to pretty large furry/teeth beasties. Wolf now has a long slide and longer barrel setup for max efforts!!!

Caliper_RWVA
February 6, 2011, 08:55 PM
For defense loads it really needs to be downloaded to about 40sw loads, so the question is why even bother with the 10mm, basically 40sw replaced it.

Beg to differ on power levels. It is true that most manufacturers download 10mm to .40 levels, but that doesn't mean that is the best load. As defensive loads go, .40 isn't the strongest out there. The old standby .357 packs more punch than .40 and 10mm can be loaded to .357 levels (plus a bigger bullet). But, those loads are hard to come by... :(

For myself, I really like 10mm but have yet to jump on board. I've shot warm .44 mag loads and enjoyed it but prefer autoloaders which lead to my interest in the 10mm. Trouble is that most manufacturers just put a .40 load in a 10mm brass and I don't reload yet (never mind recovering brass). I have read that most 10mm's are undersprung (for reliable functioning on light 10mm loads) and if you want to shoot real 10mm, stiffer springs will keep the brass closer by.

Basically, 10mm is an awesome load that has alot of bad press form the 80's to overcome and deserves to make a much greater comeback than it has thus far. Right now though, my next pistol purchase really needs to be a .22 so I can shoot more for less, not a 10mm. :(

SharpsDressedMan
February 6, 2011, 10:54 PM
Bananna Bore, great summary: "The 10mm is the 44spl of the auto world. Less than the best-- until you start reloading for it."

TechBrute
February 6, 2011, 10:56 PM
Aside from the power and the cost, which can be managed, the larger frames aren't friendly to small hands, and 9mm/40s&w can be had in a more concealable gun, in general.

LoweInc
February 7, 2011, 11:47 AM
Any one care to explain to some one that doesn't know much at all about reloading as to why a 10mm isn't a good caliber to start with? I plan to use the book loads to start with and keep them in the warm range nothing from the pits of hell yet. I will be using a single stage press, weighing out the powder by hand on a digital scale for each load, using starline brass, and probably hard cast semi-wad cutters.

Nushif
February 7, 2011, 12:08 PM
Any one care to explain to some one that doesn't know much at all about reloading as to why a 10mm isn't a good caliber to start with?

It is. Dunno what they're thinking. 8)
I started on 9mm and had no problems learning. Usually the folks recommending some ginormous round that's super easy to reload think you don't have the manual dexterity to not spill your stuff all over the place.
Others seem to think that pistol rounds are much harder to reload for some reason. I beg to differ on that one, too. Rifle rounds are way harder for me.

Overall reloading isn't rocket science by *any* means.

LoweInc
February 7, 2011, 01:34 PM
That's good to hear. I have my heart set on reloading 10mm and was didn't want to hear that it was going to be more than expected. Stil waiting on my 20SF.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
February 7, 2011, 01:51 PM
I was getting sort of serious about getting the Glock 10mm awhile back---ammo was non-existant(locally) and looking at the manufacturors ballistics charts online-pretty much all the loadings were watered down from the full powered loads when it was in its heyday.

Seems a handloading proposition only if you want full power.

I passed on the whole idea..

SeanMTX
February 7, 2011, 02:19 PM
This round in testing did everything the 10mm or the 9mm couldn't and was widely adopted.

Some after the 10mm excitement , went away and is only still chambered by a few holdouts like glock and smith revolvers etc.

Ammo and Brass supplies soon started to dry up and costs increased.

Basically 10mm is a great round and very accurate, its close to 357 mag in power and some loads exceed even 357 mag.

The problem is that 10mm is very hard on semi auto actions and is actually overkill for a defense load and at max loads its hard to control.

For defense loads it really needs to be downloaded to about 40sw loads, so the question is why even bother with the 10mm, basically 40sw replaced it.

A lot ppl still buy 10mm pistols but they soon find out the problems of owning one and will switch to a more controlable round. Also shooting 10mm brass and not recovering it cost a lot, not something you want to throw away.

This is why 10mm ammo is so expensive and hard to come by.


I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree with much of this post.

Some background: I have been a .40 guy for as long as I can remember, and a polymer fanboy. I broke from that and purchased a CBOB in 10mm a couple of years ago. The DW is more concealable, more manageable for followup shots, more accurate and more comfortable to shoot than my .40s. (Glock 27 and HK USPc)

The .40 does NOT do everything the 9mm and 10mm don't. The .40 has more muzzle flip, allowing for a more difficult follow up shot, has CONSIDERABLY less energy than the 10mm, all the while reducing capacity comparative to the 9mm. It is more powerful than a 9mm, and suffers from less overpenetration, and is easier to handle for most than the 10mm.

From a power perspective, the 10mm is more powerful than a .357 magnum and less than a .41 magnum.
* .357 Magnum: 676 ft·lbf (917 J) for 180 gr (12 g) @ 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s)[23]
* 10mm Auto: 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J) for 200 gr (13 g) @ 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s)[24]
* .41 Magnum: 938 ft·lbf (1,272 J) for 250 gr (16 g) @ 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s)[25]

From a downloading the round standpoint, I completely disagree with the notion that 10mm needs to be downgraded to .40 power. True, at full loads, the 10mm is a stout round, and in FMJ format overpenetration can be an issue. However, Winchester Silver Tip defence loads are very manageable, accurate and offer an excellent balance of power vs recoil.

The 10mm is experiencing a renaissance of sorts as of late, and you can find manufacturers such as Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap etc making loads for this. With the exception of Buffalo Bore, DT or (God forbid) Extreme Shock, the prices are fair.

Lastly, the 10mm round is NOT problematic to a semi auto frame...especially if that frame is all alloy. My DW comes standard with an 18lb spring, and should you wish to upgrade, you can do so.

The 10mm is an outstanding round, and my CBOB is by far the best platform I've ever used for a pistol. I can recommend it with ease.

Clark
February 7, 2011, 02:28 PM
BluEyes
For defense loads it really needs to be downloaded to about 40sw loads, so the question is why even bother with the 10mm, basically 40sw replaced it.
Beg to differ on power levels. It is true that most manufacturers download 10mm to .40 levels, but that doesn't mean that is the best load. As defensive loads go, .40 isn't the strongest out there. The old standby .357 packs more punch than .40 and 10mm can be loaded to .357 levels (plus a bigger bullet). But, those loads are hard to come by...

For myself, I really like 10mm but have yet to jump on board. I've shot warm .44 mag loads and enjoyed it but prefer autoloaders which lead to my interest in the 10mm. Trouble is that most manufacturers just put a .40 load in a 10mm brass and I don't reload yet (never mind recovering brass). I have read that most 10mm's are undersprung (for reliable functioning on light 10mm loads) and if you want to shoot real 10mm, stiffer springs will keep the brass closer by.

Basically, 10mm is an awesome load that has alot of bad press form the 80's to overcome and deserves to make a much greater comeback than it has thus far. Right now though, my next pistol purchase really needs to be a .22 so I can shoot more for less, not a 10mm.

Per my experiments..

With hot handloads and conventional extraction the power hierarchy is:
1) 40sw
2) 10mm
3) 44 mag
4) 357 mag

But with hot handloads and not limiting the 357 mag and 44 mag to revolver like extraction, then the hierarchy is:
1) 44 mag
2) 357 mag
3) 40sw
4) 10mm

HGUNHNTR
February 7, 2011, 02:31 PM
In the internet age, I don't get the whole lack of availablility argument. For harder to find cartridges (locally), I simply get online and order a 3-6 months supply and be done with it. Repeat in 3-6 months. Easy.

Leadhead
February 7, 2011, 03:08 PM
Per my experiments..

With hot handloads and conventional extraction the power hierarchy is:
1) 40sw
2) 10mm
3) 44 mag
4) 357 mag

But with hot handloads and not limiting the 357 mag and 44 mag to revolver like extraction, then the hierarchy is:
1) 44 mag
2) 357 mag
3) 40sw
4) 10mm

Interesting results.... Can you explain the focus of your experiments and also what "conventional and revolver like extraction" is?

LoweInc
February 7, 2011, 05:09 PM
I retract the previous statement.

DammitBoy
February 7, 2011, 10:52 PM
In the internet age, I don't get the whole lack of availablility argument.

This.

Once I dived in and bought my 10mm, I've had nothing but good luck finding ammo. Bass Pro Shop has it, Midway has it, Academy has it, Cabela's has it, etc., etc.

Clark
February 8, 2011, 04:59 AM
Leadhead
Interesting results.... Can you explain the focus of your experiments and also what "conventional and revolver like extraction" is?

1993 post by John Bercovitz on the threshold of 357 mag cases getting stuck (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/68ca10110c80e7aa/f002ce69fa01e631?pli=1)

If I work up a load in 10mm or 40 sw with and unmodified pistol, above some high pressure threshold, the extractor will pull out the case with huge force making a gilded pattern on the brass.

If I work up a load for a 357 mag or a 44 mag in a revolver with a star extractor that pushes on 6 cases at once, and is powered by my finger tip, at some pressure not far above the SAAMI registered max average, the cases will be stuck, and need to be pounded out.


John and I collaborated on a effort in 2005 to prove the books wrong about the CZ52 vs the Tokarev.

wristtwister
February 8, 2011, 06:52 AM
10MM rocks... I've got 4 different slide sets for my EAA Witness for different configurations of the gun in 10MM, Georgia Arms has 500 round boxes of ammo at the gun shows for it... so what's the problem?

Yes, during the ammo shortage, the rounds were in short supply... but so was everything else, and G/A was out of "fixin's" for a lot of other rounds as well. It's another bullet... nothing more... and it is a lot of fun to both shoot and play around with in combat scenarios. I bought 10MM's when .380's were practically non existant during the ammo scam, so I fail to see where all the angst about "finding ammo" for them comes from. I keep about 500 rounds in my drag up kit, along with a slide set for .45ACP and 500 rounds of that caliber. In a SHTF situation, there's 1000 rounds of defensive ammo for one pistol, and choices about which one to carry.

Love the gun... love the round... and pack it out as a SHTF solution... I just don't see the problem here.

WT

Broken Anvil
February 8, 2011, 01:17 PM
I picked up a S&W 1006 10mm on Gunbroker and it's a sweet shooter. The 10mm is a reloaders dream, you really need to reload to enjoy it's benifits. My Smith shoots full power loads with ease and still shoots the lightest loads. Yea, it's not a CC gun but did you really expect it to be? And I have no trouble finding ammo on the internet.....but again.....it's a reloaders round.

Leadhead
February 8, 2011, 09:54 PM
Clark,

If I work up a load in 10mm or 40 sw with and unmodified pistol, above some high pressure threshold, the extractor will pull out the case with huge force making a gilded pattern on the brass.

If I work up a load for a 357 mag or a 44 mag in a revolver with a star extractor that pushes on 6 cases at once, and is powered by my finger tip, at some pressure not far above the SAAMI registered max average, the cases will be stuck, and need to be pounded out.


John and I collaborated on a effort in 2005 to prove the books wrong about the CZ52 vs the Tokarev.

OK?

swinokur
February 8, 2011, 10:31 PM
Seems lime some of the posts here are from people who don't own a 10mm and are repeating what the heard on the Internet

Ammo is plentiful and there is affordable ammo out there. You can buy very hot loads from any number of vendors. The idea that 10mm should be downloaded to 40 is utter bunk. I have G29Sf and am waiting on a Delta Elite. These guns have no problem shooting 10mm all day long without problem. Matter of fact Glock released the G20 prior to the G21. The gun was built from the ground up for the 10mm. There were some problems with the Colt slides on early Delta's but it has been fixed for a very long time.

If you're going to get a 10mm conversion barrel for your G21 you do NOT need to change ejectors. All the 45 ACP and 10mm Glocks use the same ejector. There have been some extractor issues with older Glocks but not the newer ones. I would not use it for carry under any circumstances.

The 10mm cartridge and pistol is one of the most flexible systems you can have. I can even shoot 45ACP by putting my G30 slide on it.

The_Shootist
February 12, 2011, 09:49 PM
So would Buffalo Bore be the way to go, specifically in a G29 and specifically this: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=24

I mean, in a 180 gr bullet the fps/fpe stats at the muzzle put it close to .357 territory. Not sure about the bullet tho - a Golden Sabre type round?

For urban CHL duty, it looks pretty good, especially using G20 mags (1 in the pistol, 1 as backup) for capacity/ease of grip, giving you 30 rds on tap. That should keep the zombies/goblins at bay at least until you could fight your way back to your WASR or whatever.

RobMoore
February 12, 2011, 10:18 PM
This thread reminds me of someone asking why open wheel and sportscar racing is unpopular while NASCAR thrives. I can't explain it for 10mm or ALMS, but both are a damn shame.

swinokur
February 13, 2011, 07:05 AM
actually the FBI 10MM handgun was the S&W model 1076 and I have a FBI turn in which still has the mag release whereas the gun will not fire with the mag out..Actually the original FBI spec and the S&W 1076 built for the FBI specifically DID NOT have the magazine safety. There was a stamped warning on the slide cautioning that the weapon WOULD fire even with no mag in it.

That is one way to identify the pistol as an FBI issued firearm.

If there is no warning stamped on the slide, it's not an FBI turn in

fmcdave
February 13, 2011, 09:04 PM
I love this forum. I'm a dedicated 40S&W and .45 shooter and reloader. That said, my next pistol will be a S&W 610 or 310. I just sold a .380 Colt Pony and a Taurus 450 to finance the purchase...I just need to find one.

I'm thinking I can shoot 40s to my hearts content at the range and a few 10mm. If I want to reload the 10mm, my Dillon .40 dies can be readjusted to do so. One thing about revolvers with moon clips...you don't have to chase the brass. ;)

My plan would be to keep .40 SD rounds in the pistol for home defense, but it would be nice to have some good, hot 10mm for when I am in the back country for bears. This are not the Alaska brownies...but smaller NW bears.

BTW, I went shooting with a friend and his new Glock 29. He had a variety of ammo including Double-Tap and some other very hot loads. I have Glock 36 and while I would say the recoil was noticeably greater, it was not uncomfortable and I shot it pretty well (for a brand new pistol).

So I am not concerned with having a S&W 310 being 28oz...I'm probably more torn over having a 2.75" barrel rather than a 4 or 5" barrel.

thub
March 13, 2011, 10:09 AM
The 10 mm is a great round. The G 20 is really fun and accurate, and as far as cost it cost about 2 cents more a shot than my .40 cal. Really reloading it is the only way to go, and it is a great round. More potent than the .45.

leadcounsel
March 13, 2011, 01:06 PM
What are the benefits? What does it do that a .45, .40, or 9mm doesn't? Maybe stop game? I'll grant that. But if accuracy is more important in self defense against other humans, I think most agree that accuracy and followups are more important. This comes from training - which is easier with inexpensive and readily available ammo.

I found the 10mm in my Glock to be very snappy, causing inaccuracy due to recoil.

The ammo is rare and expensive.

I have large hands (can palm a basketball) and found the grip of the 10mm Glock on the large side. Would be difficult to conceal due to added thickness.

DANS40XC
March 13, 2011, 01:16 PM
If you're reloading the 10mm to SAAMI specs/pressures pushing a 180gr @ 1300fps -carry on.
Full pressure/SAAMI spec loads will not cycle through the un-supported chambers of the combat tupperware(Glocks)

If you don't reload,purchase a 40 Short & Weak.

swinokur
March 13, 2011, 01:31 PM
The ammo is rare and expensive.

10mm is not rare, and SD ammo can be pricey, but you don't really need than a few carry mags worth of it.My local gun shop always has it and there are half dozen on line vendors who sell it. Georgia Arms sells 180g FMJ for 20 bucks per 50. That's about the price of WWB 45 ACP.

NM Mountainman
March 13, 2011, 09:01 PM
I've been mostly a wheel gunner for most of my life. I carried an S&W Model 19 (.357) with 4" barrel for 35 years while hiking and backpacking. I also used it for bullseye competitions out to 50 yd. and in Hunter Sil. competition out to 100 meters.

But 5 years ago I decided to give the Glock 20 a try for use as a trail or "woods" gun. It is about the same overall size as my model 19 .357, and both weapons weigh the same (about 40 oz.) when fully loaded. But the revolver is carrying 6 rds. while the G20 is loaded with 15 or 16 rounds. The 10mm is definitely more powerful than the .357 mag. when both are used in weapons having comparable overall barrel lengths. A .357 revolver with a 3" barrel has the same overall (rifled barrel + chamber) barrel length as the G20 with its 4.6" barrel. When I hand load my M19 .357 and my G20 to their maximum levels, I can get about 1200 fps with a 158 gr. jacketed bullet from the 4" barrell .357 (5.6' overall barrel length) compared to 1200 fps with a 200 gr jacketed bullet from the G20 with its 4.6" barrel. With those loads, the perceived recoil (to me) seems milder with the G20 and accurate followup shots with the G20 are much faster than with the S&W revolver with the same weight. The only things my .357 mag with the 4" barrel can do better than my G20 is slow precise single action target style shooting at longer distances and the convenient use of snake shot rounds up close. Also, before I did a grip reduction on my gen 3 G20, the grip of the revolver fit my large hand much better than the blocky humped grip on the G20. The better grip (along with decades of practice) on the revolver made the revolver a little faster for drawing and firing the first shot than the G20.

So my .357 revolver has gone into retirement while the G20 is riding on my hip whenever I am hiking or backpacking. For me, the G20 10 mm makes a .357 revolver with a 4" or shorter barrel seem almost obselete for many purposes. (I still haven't been able to shoot the heads off of rabbits or grouse with my G20, though.)

The 10 mm is my favorite centerfire cartridge for use in a semi-auto, but I hesitate to recommend it to others. I see it as a niche or specialist round for use by a hunter or use as a woods gun, but only if the 10 mm shooter has large enough hands to grip the G20 firmly with one hand. And I think the 10mm shooter needs to handloads his own ammo. Without hand loading, you are restricted to ordering ammo over the internet from 2 or 3 small ammo makers if you want ammo that is loaded to the full power potential of the 10mm. In addition, my gen 3 G20 required the purchase of an aftermarket barrel when I wanted fully supported case heads for long case life and for safer use with maximum loads and lead bullets. (Those problems were associated with the Glock barrel; they are not inherent to the 10mm cartridge.)

Even though I've killed two mule deer bucks at about 50 yards with my 4" barrel .357, I really think the 10mm (even with a 6" barrel) and the .357 with a 4" barrel are barely adequate for such use. I much prefer to use a .44 mag. with a 6" barrel for hunting deer and larger game.

I see no reason to get a 10mm for use as a PD weapon when dealing with 2 legged varmints. Over penetration is not an issue inherent with the 10 mm if bullets designed for SD are used. With a properly constructed bullet, the 10 mm may penetrate only an inch or two deeper than the .40 S&W with the same bullet, but the greater velocity of the 10mm bullet will result in a lot more expansion (according to data from Double Tap.)

Nevertheless, the 10 mm offers no significant practical advantages over the 40 S&W for such use. The .40 S&W is underrated in IMO. A .40 S&W pistol with a 4" barrel can fire a 155 gr. jacketed bullet at about the same velocity (or slightly faster) as a .357 mag revolver with 4" barrel (true overall barrel length = 5.6") can propel a 158 gr JHP (about 1200 fps) when both are using standard factory loads from Fedremchester. A 10mm firing factory loads from Hornady or Fedremchester will only beat the .40 S&W by a liile bit. The .40 S&W is an effective round for SD and it can be used in a pistol which will fit most shooter's hands better and will typically recoil less than the G20.

But for me, the 10mm is accurate, powerful, and fun to shoot. The G20 makes a pretty good lightweight "woods" gun for the shooter with large enough hands to grip it firmly and to shoot it accurately using only one hand.

hogshead
March 13, 2011, 09:24 PM
Said it before and I'l say it again still shooting 40 S@W out of my g20 over 2 years now . No problems at all and I have 24 lb recoil spring. Let the flames begin.

IdahoLT1
March 14, 2011, 11:58 AM
What are the benefits? What does it do that a .45, .40, or 9mm doesn't? Maybe stop game? I'll grant that. But if accuracy is more important in self defense against other humans, I think most agree that accuracy and followups are more important. This comes from training - which is easier with inexpensive and readily available ammo.

I found the 10mm in my Glock to be very snappy, causing inaccuracy due to recoil.

The ammo is rare and expensive.

I have large hands (can palm a basketball) and found the grip of the 10mm Glock on the large side. Would be difficult to conceal due to added thickness.


The biggest benefit is penetration and defeating barriers. The 10mm will punch through windshield glass and car doors with ease. This may not be what most CCW holders look for in their defensive weapon but for those that do, its a plus.

I dont carry my S&W 1006 around inside city limits much because of weight and size. If I do, its open carry. When im hiking/fishing/camping/hunting, the 10mm is always on my hip and the other pistols stay home. In the realm of a good "woods gun" the 9mm, 40S&W and .45ACP dont hold a candle next to the 10mm.

Morpheus171
March 14, 2011, 04:21 PM
Just picked up a G20 SF last week. Love it!

DammitBoy
March 14, 2011, 04:39 PM
I tried to like the G20 - I really did. The grip is just too puny and slippery. :(

cougar1717
March 14, 2011, 05:00 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 10mm. I just can't warm up to any of the current production guns chambered in the caliber.

RX-178
March 15, 2011, 12:30 AM
What's WRONG with the 10mm?

Well, it was apparently the consensus of the law enforcement community at the time (which basically meant they heard what the FBI said and took it as gospel), that the 10mm cartridge was physically too long (grip circumference), and had recoil too harsh for female officers to handle.

The cartridge was shortened, and the shortened cartridge became the .40 S&W.

The problem with the FBI's logic is that a 10mm 1911 like the Delta Elite had a grip circumference much smaller than the double stack .40 caliber pistols that flooded the law enforcement market, and the .40 still has a reputation for snappy recoil. But you can't really argue with the marketing success that the .40 has had.

I'm a big 10mm fan, always have been and probably always will be. Every time someone asks me if they should get a .40, I tell them the story on how the .40 was made from the 10mm, and more than half of the time, they're sold on the 10mm from that alone.

swinokur
March 15, 2011, 08:24 AM
The FBI decided the 10mm round was too harsh during the evaluation phase of their cartridge evaluations. It is a myth that it was because women agents could not handle it. There may have been women in the testing phase but that is not the reason they went with the 10mm FBI load. When the S&W 1076's starting having reliability issues, Smith went to Winchester and the 40 S & W was born so that a 9mm rame could be used while keeping the ballisitics of the 10mm FBI load.

ZeSpectre
March 15, 2011, 10:48 AM
What's WRONG with the 10mm?
Great Hoppin' Thomas Edison, have you ever touched one off while your near the wall of an indoor shooting range? Heavier loads will ring your bell through muffs and plugs!!!!

Other than that...nothing is wrong except it's just not a "mainstream" cartridge. As a hand-loader I love it. I've done more research and experimenting on 10mm than almost anything else and come up with safe loads that will do anything I need from a handgun round and then some.

Arkansas Paul
March 15, 2011, 11:04 AM
I would like to have one, but the Glock is the only one I could afford and even the 20SF is too large for my hands.

Mudinyeri
March 15, 2011, 01:37 PM
I like the stock car/open wheel racing analogy. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with 10mm. It's just not as popular as 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

Now, if you think popularity makes something "right", I give you Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. :D

My 10mm (Glock 20) is a hunting gun and backup woods gun ... because of the penetration I can get with the round in a semi-automatic platform with a 15+1 capacity. I've seen the debate (and even been involved myself a couple times) that says .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum or some other round is the be-all, end-all round for backup, but I have yet to find a combination of power, penetration and capacity that beats 10mm. If I don't have a rifle in my hands and I'm trying to take out a charging 500 lb wild boar or grizzly, I want all three!

Ammo availability? Non-issue. Red Herring. You can buy brass, powder and bullets from any one of a number of online retailers if you want to reload. Most good-sized outdoor outfitters carry a decent selection. Or, if you're like me, and you have a buddy who's an ammunition manufacturer ... you can get whatever you want custom made to meet your needs at a price that compares to el-cheapo .45 ACP ammo. :D

MattTheHat
March 15, 2011, 03:46 PM
So are you looking for a pistol, or a carbine rifle that chambers 10mm?

Both. I shoot both. :)

It's nice being able to share ammo between a pistol and a carbine. Course, if you're going to go to the trouble of lugging around a carbine, you could certainly argue the case of going with a more powerful cartridge.

As others have indicated, if you reload, the ammo issue is out the window.

As for the .40S&W. Well, it seems like a solution for a problem that didn't really exist to me. I refer to it as the 10mm Kurtz. :)


-Matt

jeepmor
March 15, 2011, 04:23 PM
I too am a 10mm fan and own two. Finding the brass again for reloading is an issue with this round as it does fling it quite a ways.

Availability is not an issue due to the internet and shipping. If you want to pick it up locally, that's fine, but don't whine at us because you don't want to order off the internet. It's a really weak, I'm too lazy, argument.

CMC
March 15, 2011, 04:45 PM
I just bough some 10 mm FMC remington at Bass proshops this week.
I beleive Colt is going to start production again , and I think Wilson and Kinber are allready offering them.
BTW the 40 S & W was also known as the 40 short and wimpy.
I have a 10 mm 1911 I fitted a 40 S & W barrel so I can shoot it more often.

Axel Larson
March 15, 2011, 04:48 PM
I have shot a friend's witness, it was fun, very accurate and had no recoil to speak of, but it costs too much to shoot without reloading. I hope it becomes more popular and therefore goes down in price.;)

SharpsDressedMan
March 15, 2011, 04:56 PM
It's not for eveyone, but anyone that reloads has already eliminated the main complaints: availability and cost. It loads for about the same as 40 S&W and .45ACP.

Zoogster
March 15, 2011, 04:56 PM
10mm is a great round.

You get greater than .357 Magnum performance with less felt recoil than a .357 magnum because the auto action eats up a lot of the felt recoil. With a revolver the recoil impulse goes straight to the hand, but in an auto it gets spread over the distance the recoil spring is compressed.



There is certainly people that might find it too stout. But if you can handle a .357 Magnum then you can certainly handle the 10mm Auto.
Some guns such as the Glocks with a low bore axis are very easy to shoot and are actually more pleasant to shoot than a .357 Magnum revolver loaded with full power rounds.



The .357 Magnum was a dominant round many places for a good part of last century. It was considered great for the woods and a great self defense round. The 10mm Auto does similar things and can even be a little more powerful in energy figures while having less felt recoil.



Many of the early problems after the FBI adoption had more to do with using a standard .45ACP recoil spring that tarnished the gun's reputation.
The .45ACP spring is not enough for the 10mm Auto, and so it let the slide slam back and forth like a pendulum. This both battered the gun and increased felt recoil and muzzle rise.
Rather than fix the recoil spring they downloaded the round to work with the recoil spring. By the time the recoil spring was fixed the FBI lite load had already been born. Then someone saw the cartridge was being loaded so lite that much of the cartridge space was being wasted. So they made a shorter round that could function in 9mm frames.
The gun manufacturer$ loved the idea becau$e in$tead of having to make new frame$ for the longer 10mm $et to dominate the market they could just use existing 9mm frame$$$ and direct the market in that direction.
The .40$&W was born.


So the reason the 10mm auto fell from power was a combination of poor factors that shouldn't have been.
Had the delta elites came with the proper recoil spring from the state the FBI lite would likely have never been created, and the .40S&W never created based on that weak loading.

mr.trooper
March 15, 2011, 05:44 PM
Same thing that that's wrong with many great cartridges - market forces.

10mm is good at everything, except being cheap.


I like 10mm. I have one, and I want more.

gofastman
March 15, 2011, 07:42 PM
It hurts my wimpy little wrists :( :neener:

S&W610
March 15, 2011, 09:50 PM
I have 3 610's no dash number. 2 6.5 inch barrels with fluted cylinders and a 5 inch safe queen. Also a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, and a 1086. I LOVE my 10mm.

Carne Frio
March 15, 2011, 11:38 PM
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/thejackal72/10mm-1.jpg

swinokur
March 16, 2011, 08:14 AM
Many of the early problems after the FBI adoption had more to do with using a standard .45ACP recoil spring that tarnished the gun's reputation.
The .45ACP spring is not enough for the 10mm Auto, and so it let the slide slam back and forth like a pendulum. This both battered the gun and increased felt recoil and muzzle rise.
Rather than fix the recoil spring they downloaded the round to work with the recoil spring. By the time the recoil spring was fixed the FBI lite load had already been born. Then someone saw the cartridge was being loaded so lite that much of the cartridge space was being wasted. So they made a shorter round that could function in 9mm frames.
The gun manufacturer$ loved the idea becau$e in$tead of having to make new frame$ for the longer 10mm $et to dominate the market they could just use existing 9mm frame$$$ and direct the market in that direction.
The .40$&W was born.


So the reason the 10mm auto fell from power was a combination of poor factors that shouldn't have been.
Had the delta elites came with the proper recoil spring from the state the FBI lite would likely have never been created, and the .40S&W never created based on that weak loading.
Please provide a cite for this post. It is controverted by all the information I have read on the development of the 10mm and it's adoption and subsequent abandonment by the FBI

The recoil spring was not the reason the FBI downloaded the 10mm. That was decided during cartridge evaluations being done at Quantico. One Colt 10mm was evaluated, but the model is not mentioned.I don't even know if it was even in production at the time the FBI was looking at the 10mm. The FBI tests started the same year the Delta was released. (1987-88) The S & W 1076 autos started having reliability issues and Smith went to Winchester for a cartridge with FBI lite ballistics that would fit in a 9 mm frame. I have never seen any information that the recoil spring had anything to do with any of the FBI evaluations.

Please provide the cite for your post.

DammitBoy
March 16, 2011, 01:46 PM
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/thejackal72/10mm-1.jpg

Hal Carter
March 16, 2011, 02:50 PM
I've been doing informal tests on handgun rounds for many years and of the auto cartridges the 10 mm expands better than the rest especially with 155 grain hot loads. It might be too penetrative for sd against people, but against things like hogs, it is very good. A 44 mag or bigger is better, but not as controlable. I carry a Glock 19 anyway so to switch to the 20sf is easy.

Dave T
March 16, 2011, 11:52 PM
I have 3 610's no dash number. 2 6.5 inch barrels with fluted cylinders and a 5 inch safe queen. Also a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, and a 1086. I LOVE my 10mm.

If I had that 5" Model 610, I'd love it too! I really want one of those. (smile)

Dave

PS: OK, I'd really love to have that Dan Wesson 10mm too!

Joker19
March 18, 2011, 08:48 PM
The 10mm is a very inaccurate round simply because it is not a compressed load. The 40 S&W is the 10mm compressed and it is much more accurate and available. Bren 10 is gone.....get over it! DO NOT waist your money on a 10mm.........................they are over!!!!!!!!!!!!

agtman
March 18, 2011, 09:27 PM
"What's wrong with the 10mm?"

Nothing that a stiff shot of testosterone won't cure ... :rolleyes:

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/motivator46fdd30941de0051d087f76546.jpg

"Yeah, we're talking 'bout you, bubba." :evil:
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/miami-vice-dj12.jpg

:cool:

GLOOB
March 18, 2011, 09:38 PM
One thing wrong with 10mm is that 40SW can be loaded hotter, launched from an identical platform with full case head support. At the high pressures these cartridges operate in, the LPP will blow out before you realize the case-capacity or web thickness advantages of the 10mm. Or so I've heard from the world's most interesting reloader.

SharpsDressedMan
March 18, 2011, 09:42 PM
Joker 19, I'm wondering what experience you have with the 10mm. I have two guns that will outshoot yours. :D One is Glock, and the other is a Caspian Government Model, built by SDM Fabricating (Scott Mulkerin). I'm sure there are other 10mm owners on here that will also "put up". Why would you think a cartridge is inherently inaccurate? Compressed, or slightly compressed used to be an issue with blackpowder, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Is one inch at 25 yards accurate enough, or 1.5"? What .40's are you shooting, and what do they deliver?

wow6599
March 18, 2011, 10:11 PM
The 10mm is a very inaccurate round
More please..........or do you even own anything in 10?

dan10mmman
March 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
The 10mm is a very inaccurate round.................Troll

DC3-CVN-72
March 19, 2011, 12:59 AM
Ur a funny guy Joker 19 ! :neener:

Strahley
March 19, 2011, 11:00 AM
Seems a useless round to me. For a self defense scenario it isn't going to do anything that a 9mm/.45 can't do. If I need more horsepower than that, I need a long gun

If I'm going to bear country and I'm worried about running into a big bear, I'd rather bring a .44 Mag (if I can't bring a long gun)

Dan-O
March 19, 2011, 11:25 AM
One of the most accurate guns I own:

A Smith and Wesson 5" 610


http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww266/yeahitsthatbig/IMG_0304.jpg

Loosedhorse
March 19, 2011, 01:41 PM
Compared to .40 S&W, 10mm:

--has a longer OAL, and so requires a larger-gripped pistol
--is more expensive
--is often harder to find
--has fewer pistol models available
--has little ballistic advantage for bullet weights 155gr and below
--has significant ballistic advantages for BWs 180-230gr, but that may not matter much for SD use against human attackers
--has more recoil at maximal loadings for any given bullet weight
--has a mythology around the Harold Fish case
--was eventually given a not-such-a-great-idea-after-all assessment by its conceiver, Col. Jeff Cooper.

That's about it. (For a longer list, start a thread entitled, "What's RIGHT with 10mm?" :cool::p)

Warp
March 19, 2011, 01:41 PM
For me what is wrong with the 10mm was: Grip size (G20), ammunition cost and ammunition availability.

That's why I sold it.

It was also too big to properly carry concealed and even though I kind of put that use off at the time of purchase I ended up realizing that I would much rather have something I could readily conceal. I'm very happy with the G19 I purchased in its place (this was 2 years ago).

NMGonzo
March 19, 2011, 01:50 PM
I am here at the store with my .44 magnum, which is laughing at your 10mm girly rounds.

j/k

44 magnum defense rounds are cheaper and easier to find for a gun that is ... cheaper and easier to find ... and If I chose to reload ... it will be cheaper and easier to find.

millertyme
March 19, 2011, 01:57 PM
I would love a 10mm, but only in something 5" or so and steel. That Delta Elite and the DW are still in production or a Smith 10xx. I've heard mixed reviews on Witness 10mm's and a buddy of mine has a Glock 10mm. I think it's true potential lies in the sub-machine gun market or pistol caliber AR's. That's what I'd like to see one in. A 10mm AR that accepts Glock magazines and then get Glock to make 22 round magazines for it. I don't think any other pistol caliber carbine would last long compared to it.

SharpsDressedMan
March 19, 2011, 06:19 PM
QUOTE: "Seems a useless round to me. For a self defense scenario it isn't going to do anything that a 9mm/.45 can't do. If I need more horsepower than that, I need a long gun"

Well ,for starters, it delivers WAY more pentration than both, and brings with it WAY more energy and potential destruction. You can never have TOO much, when defending yourself, right? :D

swinokur
March 19, 2011, 06:26 PM
Seems a useless round to me. For a self defense scenario it isn't going to do anything that a 9mm/.45 can't do. If I need more horsepower than that, I need a long gun

If I'm going to bear country and I'm worried about running into a big bear, I'd rather bring a .44 Mag (if I can't bring a long gun)Except for this ...yep useless

Rico567
March 19, 2011, 06:28 PM
I shoot .40 S&W, not 10mm, for the same reason that I'd shoot .44 special and not .44 magnum, or .38 special instead of .357 magnum. Overkill, for me.

TechBrute
March 19, 2011, 06:30 PM
Seems a useless round to me.

Useless??? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

JoelSteinbach
March 19, 2011, 11:01 PM
Nothing is wrong with 10mm, it is in my opinion one of the best all round cartidges that you can shoot. Guns are available from Kimber,Glock Tanfoglio, Colt and a few others , I personaly own 11 ,10m weapoons including a S&W 610 revolver from 1999. AS long as you hand load ammo is affordable and available. performance is #1, compared to about most everything else.

Strahley
March 19, 2011, 11:12 PM
Useless. To be without use. I know exactly what it means. Now, feel free to show me where 10mm would be of use to me

1. For CCH I carry a .45
2. For range practice, I shoot cheap .22LR ammo
3. For plinking, I shoot .22LR and/or 9mm (for cheaper "service caliber" practice)
4. I do not handload, nor do I intend to
5. I do not live in bear country, nor do I travel through the woods
6. For HD, SHTF, etc, I have long guns to grab
7. My hands prefer a midsize gun (Glock 19 size is perfect for me)

So again I ask, what can 10mm do for me that a .45 cannot? Is .45 an ineffective man-stopper? Does .45 not penetrate enough to strike vital organs in a human attacker? Why do I need to be able to shoot through a car door with a pistol? If I need more power than my CCH .45 and I can make it to my truck/safe, would a 10mm pistol be a better, more powerful choice than grabbing a rifle/shotgun?

wow6599
March 19, 2011, 11:30 PM
So again I ask, what can 10mm do for me that a .45 cannot?

Send a 230 gr bullet down range at 1120fps with 641 ft./lbs.from a 4.6" Glock 20.......and carry 16 rds in that package. Or, shoot loads from 125gr. to 230gr.
And for the record, I love both........

SharpsDressedMan
March 19, 2011, 11:30 PM
Why would you believe the the use of a .45 is better than using a 10mm for self defense/concealed carry? Clearly, the 10mm has superior ballistics. You have chosen a .45, but that does not mean it is superior to the 10mm. 10mm....faster, flatter, deeper, harder, more terminal (see the gel comparison above). Besides all that, you can sqeeze more 10mm's in the same magazine space than .45 rounds. What's not to like?

gym
March 20, 2011, 12:31 AM
I went to brass fetcher, and read up on the 10 several times. It just seemed that it wasn't doing all that much for the additional expense. Here is the link
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto.html, I considered it several times but never found any startling ballistics over the other 5 calibers I use. Nothing big enough to warrent another thousand or more in equiptment

IdahoLT1
March 20, 2011, 07:21 AM
The 10mm that brass fetcher used was near the lower end on the power scale. Theres multiple loads out there that are 150fps faster than the one they used. That's what you not seeing.

Strahley
March 20, 2011, 01:59 PM
Send a 230 gr bullet down range at 1120fps with 641 ft./lbs.from a 4.6" Glock 20.......and carry 16 rds in that package. Or, shoot loads from 125gr. to 230gr.

I don't need 230gr @ 1120 FPS to stop a human attacker, 230gr @ 900-950 has been doing it for ~100 years. I don't need one caliber to range from 125gr to 230gr, I don't handload. I don't like how thick the .45/10mm Glocks are, which is why I don't have any

Why would you believe the the use of a .45 is better than using a 10mm for self defense/concealed carry? Clearly, the 10mm has superior ballistics. You have chosen a .45, but that does not mean it is superior to the 10mm. 10mm....faster, flatter, deeper, harder, more terminal (see the gel comparison above). Besides all that, you can sqeeze more 10mm's in the same magazine space than .45 rounds. What's not to like?

I didn't say .45 had better performance than 10mm. For self defense, I do not need something that powerful, especially considering it will not be cheaper, easier to find, as pleasant to shoot, or come in a gun that is a good size for me

So again, my opinion stands. 10mm is useless to me. Same with .357 SIG, .45 GAP, .327 Federal, etc

SharpsDressedMan
March 20, 2011, 02:45 PM
I guess my problem with regarding the .45 as the end all cartridge is the numerous times in has failed to expand, due to its "standard" velocity of 800-900fps, its occasional bouncing off windshields and other barriers at soft angles, and its lack of penetration in auto doors & bodies (all too often, self defense involves bad guys in vehicles shooting at others). The 10mm just seems to have a better reputation for those challenges.

HGUNHNTR
March 20, 2011, 02:52 PM
In the internet age there is no valid reason to snub the 10mm. Ammo availablility is a click away.

Mainsail
March 20, 2011, 05:05 PM
Useless. To be without use. I know exactly what it means. Now, feel free to show me where 10mm would be of use to me

I could compile a very long list of things that are of no use to you that are, nevertheless, anything but useless. What a strange narcissistic delusion under which you seem to live. :rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
March 20, 2011, 05:16 PM
I went to brass fetcher, and read up on the 10 several times. It just seemed that it wasn't doing all that much for the additional expense.

Brass Fetcher's load was 180gr at 1100fps 10 feet from the muzzle.

The original loading for the cartridge would be more like 1300fps with that same bullet.

Download almost any ammo 15% from it's design specs and you'll get less than optimum performance.

wristtwister
March 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
I shoot a lot of different caliber pistols and revolvers, and each one of them has it's good and bad points. There's no "one answer" to every question, and 10MM is a great cartridge in my guns... so are .45's, .40's, .38's... every one of them has some good and bad points, but I hardly ever try to just dismiss that a cartridge has any purpose at all... (maybe some of the oversize pistol calibers shooting rifle cartridges) but for the most part, I like shooting anything that doesn't break my wrist.

The cartridges don't have to be loaded so that they blow up the gun to be "effective", and they don't have to be under-loaded so that they are "comfortable" if you use a pistol with enough weight to handle the recoil (yes, I'm one of those people who doesn't think the sun rises because of the invention of the Glock).

I've never had problems getting either brass or loaded bullets for my 10MM, and enjoy shooting it whenever I get the chance. When people were paying $50 and $75 a box for .380, I was out banging away with my 10MM Witness and having a ball.

I don't really have any problem with any cartridge when it's used in a format that makes it usable. I'm not big on shooting Contender-style pistols with rifle cartridges, but that's just personal choice. I'd rather use one of my rifles to take that shot, and while some people's bells ring with that kind of recoil management, mine doesn't.

Shooting is enjoyable to me... and I keep it that way. 10MM... no problem. Great cartridge, and lots of fun.

WT

Strahley
March 20, 2011, 05:44 PM
Oh trust me, I don't think the .45 is the end all cartridge. In fact, I think the same of .45 as I do all handgun calibers...they are an underpowered compromise
for when I can't take a long gun with me. If I can't stop a threat with 19 rounds of .45 (which is what I can take with me with one spare magazine), I'm not going to wish I had a 10mm handgun. I'm going to wish I had a long gun

I could compile a very long list of things that are of no use to you that are, nevertheless, anything but useless. What a strange narcissistic delusion under which you seem to live. :rolleyes:

I'm delusional because I know there is no place for a 10mm handgun in my lineup? I've stated why 10mm serves no purpose for me, and why. That was the original question in this thread, so I answered it

orionengnr
March 20, 2011, 10:48 PM
Well, I own and shoot both .45acp and 10mm.
I enjoy both, and trust either to do the job.

My 10mm is a fairly recent acquisition (used DW 10mm CBOB) and had some intial difficulties, so I don't carry it (yet) but certainly will...or it will be gone. I don't own any handgun (over .22 caliber) that I don't carry.

In my experience (so far) there is nothing wrong with 10mm per se. Yes, it is a handloader's cartridge. I am a handloader, so that it is a non-issue. Yes, brass is pricey, and it launches brass into Low Earth orbit. Yes, it's recoil is a bit snappy, but in a steel framed Commander sized 1911 I can shoot it fairly well, and that is what matters to me.

IdahoLT1
March 20, 2011, 11:47 PM
Brass isnt that expensive. Midway has 500rds of 10mm Starline brass for $92.50. Their .40S&W brass is $85, so add a few extra grains of powder for each round and the 10mm is not that much more to reload than .40S&W.

orionengnr
March 21, 2011, 05:40 PM
Ah, but .40 brass is free for the picking up at my range (and others I have visited. Most people don't even boither to pick up 9mm r .40 brass.

Even if you have to buy it, once-fired it's $30 per thousand.

Range pick-up in 10mm is unheard of, and once fired is almost unheard of--as soon as someone posts it for sale (rarely) it is gone (immediately).

So compare .40 at $60 per thou to 10mm at almost $200 per thou, and yes, it's expensive. But it's worth it. :)

SharpsDressedMan
March 21, 2011, 07:07 PM
Pick up the free .40 brass, load some .40 ammo for your friends that shoot .40, take the money they give you for the .40 ammo, and then buy 10mm brass in bulk................

millertyme
March 21, 2011, 11:20 PM
Oh trust me, I don't think the .45 is the end all cartridge. In fact, I think the same of .45 as I do all handgun calibers...they are an underpowered compromise for when I can't take a long gun with me.

Which is why the 10mm is so effective. It's a pistol on steroids. But, you do shoot Glock's and that's not the kind of pistol I would want to shoot full-house 10mm out of. As I said previous, preferably something steel. That Witness Stock II looks like it fit the bill nicely. Any it wouldn't cost any more than a Glock. They make steel compacts, as well and you can get thin aluminum grips for them.

But I agree with you on at least one point, If 19 rounds of .45ACP can't take care of it then it's probably not something you should be trying to take care of with a pistol.

wow6599
March 22, 2011, 12:04 AM
In fact, I think the same of .45 as I do all handgun calibers...they are an underpowered compromise for when I can't take a long gun with me

With a simple barrel swap you can shoot a 95 gr bullet at 2000 ft/s with close to 850 ft/lbs......9x25 Dillon. Seems close to long gun numbers to me.

Strahley
March 22, 2011, 12:37 AM
Not near powerful enough to make up for a lower capacity and having the shorter effective range of a handgun

gym
March 22, 2011, 12:26 PM
thanks for clearing that up fellas, they really should test more 10mm loads on BF. I wondered why there was only one, may be the cost. i know they get $400.00 to run 1 test

mokin
March 22, 2011, 12:45 PM
For me, there is nothing wrong with the 10mm. The availability of ammunition seems to be the most frequently cited "problem". A few of the guys I shoot with like to be able to go to Walmart and pick up boxes of ammo for 5 or 10 cents a round and mindlessly blast away. They'd love a pistol that is more powerful than thier .40 S&W or hold more than thier .45 but they can't buy ammo for the 10mm so they tout the strengths of thier caliber. It's all friendly but deep down I know they want one.

swinokur
March 23, 2011, 08:01 AM
Admittedly 10mm ammo is more expensive than other calibers, but I can get 180g FMJ ammo from Georgia Arms for 20 bucks per 50. That's almost the same price as .40.

As far as unavailability, IMO that's a fallacy perpetuated by Internet urban myth. I have zero difficulty buying 10mm at several on line retailers.

Dave T
March 23, 2011, 04:57 PM
I have a reason for liking the 10mm that no one has brought up in 6 pages of responses. That being...it is so damn interesting!

To be completely honest it doesn't do anything I need a handgun to do that my 45 ACPs won't do, but then my 44 Specials will do everything I need a large bore revolver to do, yet I still have 44 Magnums. I find handguns interesting, challenging and fun to both shoot and master. The 10mm opens up a whole world of new things to explore and try.

The 10mm is not economical and not necessary but it is so interesting and such fun I wouldn't want to be without one.

Dave

Judo
March 24, 2011, 11:30 PM
The 10mm is a very inaccurate round simply because it is not a compressed load. The 40 S&W is the 10mm compressed and it is much more accurate and available. Bren 10 is gone.....get over it! DO NOT waist your money on a 10mm.........................they are over!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you talking about? Your waist around your body or don't waste. Also, how is the 10 mm inaccurate? How did you determine the inaccuracy?

Casefull
March 25, 2011, 08:57 PM
I shoot a glock 20 with wolf barrel and steel rod with heavier recoil spring. My hollow point handloads are 180g hp at 1350-1400 fps. It is a sweetheart. The trigger sucks for us 1911,etc guys but the more I shoot it the more I get used to the trigger. I have nite sites for quick in the dark lineup. My son is on the pakistan border in afghanistan an I wish he had my gun in place of his weenie 92 beretta.

swinokur
March 25, 2011, 09:06 PM
Tell your son thank you for your service, be safe and come home soon

Peter M. Eick
March 26, 2011, 08:39 PM
Nothing is wrong with the 10mm.

I shot 700 rounds of 10mm today. What a great day. The baer was cooking and the RZ was in the groove. My 135 grn Noslers had a heck of a bark with blue dot and the longshot 180's were really cooking.

Great round and great guns!

Stevie-Ray
March 26, 2011, 09:10 PM
Per my experiments..

With hot handloads and conventional extraction the power hierarchy is:
1) 40sw
2) 10mm
3) 44 mag
4) 357 mag
Yeah, I did those too. Mine ended up with the power hierarchy:

1) 25 ACP
2) 32 ACP
3) 460 S&W mag
4) 500 S&W mag

Leadhead
March 26, 2011, 09:28 PM
Yeah, I did those too. Mine ended up with the power hierarchy:

1) 25 ACP
2) 32 ACP
3) 460 S&W mag
4) 500 S&W mag

:D :eek: :D

duncan
March 26, 2011, 09:50 PM
10mm is just fine. There are 10mm forums.

DoubleTap Ammo sprung from a GlockTalk memberalways working up loads.

Lot sof 10mm love and LEAs do like the round. Texas DPS.

I rock Glock 20, Glock 29, SW 610 and this Olympic Arms 10mm AR-15 carbine:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2011-1/1363443/Oly_Arms_10mm_Rifle_cp.jpg

The Bambi and Porky the Pig Slayer!

Oly even offers brand new 10mm polymer magazines for their PCCs.

So companies are investing in 10mm to this day.

And what about Colt restarting its making of the Colt Delta Elite?

http://www.themarksman.net/item_photos/large/colt_delta_elite__10mm_1314.jpg

Brand new today.

dcarch
April 1, 2011, 11:57 PM
I think 10mm is definitely becoming more popular. Now if only VLTOR could actually get then Bren 10 into production...

Clark
April 2, 2011, 01:22 AM
Stevie-Ray

Quote:
Per my experiments..

With hot handloads and conventional extraction the power hierarchy is:
1) 40sw
2) 10mm
3) 44 mag
4) 357 mag
Yeah, I did those too. Mine ended up with the power hierarchy:

1) 25 ACP
2) 32 ACP
3) 460 S&W mag
4) 500 S&W mag
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.".......John F. Kennedy

I find your lack of faith in experiments disturbing.

legion3
April 2, 2011, 10:44 AM
One problem with the 10mm is the choice of platforms.

First they are all big guns. and most are expensive 1911's - and not everyone is a 1911 fan (and I know plenty of 1911 fans who wouldn't want a 10mm 1911 if it was given to them) or wants a single action gun. Also not everyone wants to pay the big bucks that these guns are priced at.

Only Glock and EAA have guns at reasonable price points. Even the Delta elite is $800 and up usually. The rest are 1K and up...limits appeal for many. Add in the hard to find, often expensive and mostly watered down factory ammo and the round has even less appeal to the vast majority of shooters.

The 10mm is a round that begs for reloading and as a moderate sized critter gun in automatic it is hard to beat, especially the Glock for backpacking.


At one time back in the day I had both glocks, the SW 1006, 1076 and 1066, the Star Megastar (what a beast) and a Bren Ten special forces Dark, I even carried the G29 and the 1066 as my EDC. I was a huge proponent of the 10mm but several things detered the round from being what many hoped it would be and after the FBI ditched the 1076 - interest waned and currently no government agency (except the Danish army which issues them for polar bear protection in greenland patrols) issues the 10mm. (some may authorize it but that is not the same, thus gunmakers seem to have little incentive to make new 10mm guns.

I have moved on from the 10mm as other guns offer many advantages over the 10mm. If I lived say in alaska or some western states I would still have a 10mm, but in Florida the 10mm serves no real purpose for me.

None of the major ammo makers make their police oriented ammo line in 10mm (Ranger, HST, Gold Dot etc...) when they do then I will believe its catching on again. Didn't Dan Wesson drop most of the 10mm guns from its line? Not exactly a positive sign. And after the Vltor "New" Bren Ten (Fortis) debacle I have my doubts.

yhtomit
April 2, 2011, 01:31 PM
I don't have anything in 10mm, nor do I plan to, but I've never seen much disparaging information about it. Dismissive sometimes, on the basis that other calibers exist and fill similar roles, but not actually disparaging. Just like many other calibers that require a new investment in guns and / or reloading equipment / storage / time, people are skeptical and critical, but it doesn't mean they're being insulting or casting aspersions.

(Sorta like .44Magnum -- don't have one, but I sure wouldn't turn one down for free --which doesn't mean that I or anyone else in the same boat don't adequately respect the caliber ;))

timothy

Mainsail
April 2, 2011, 08:58 PM
First they are all big guns...

The Glock G29 isn't big, it's about the same size as the G19 overall.

DammitBoy
April 2, 2011, 10:20 PM
First they are all big guns.

You must have little girlie hands. The G20 is too small for me and most 1911's don't have that nice wide body Para frame feel I like so much.

And I don't have big hands by any means.

legion3
April 3, 2011, 07:06 AM
The Glock G29 isn't big, it's about the same size as the G19 overall.

The 29 is way way fatter has a much less friendly grip than the G19. And the 29SF only makes the reach a bit better, the gun is still fat.


You must have little girlie hands. The G20 is too small for me and most 1911's don't have that nice wide body Para frame feel I like so much.

And I don't have big hands by any means.

Well I must disagree, you must have huge ogre hands if the G20 is to small for you. The vast majority of people would not view the G20 as to small for them.


The 10mm comes in no truecompact size weapon the G29 may be the closest but it is not a Glock 19 by any comparison.

swinokur
April 3, 2011, 08:13 AM
The only real difference between the G19 and G29SF is the width, which is .09 inches.

Maybe enough difference for those with mid to small hands. I have average size hands and my G30 feels a little fat. But I got used to shooting and carrying it. I liked it enough to buy a G29SF, which while only being a 3mm difference front to back, is slightly more comfortable for me.

G19 w 1.18
G29 w 1.27

Neither one a deal breaker for me. A 10 round 45 ACP or even 10mm in a smaller package is perfect for my needs. The SF feels slightly better IMO

legion3
April 3, 2011, 02:30 PM
It may seem like not much on paper the the thickness feels very distinct between the G19 and the G30/29.

I agree the SF is slightly better but its still just as fat and is not very sub-compact.

Nevertheless, the G29 may be the smallest 10mm on the market but it is still bigger than many other guns. But the size of the glock 29 is not the only struggle the 10mm has with the majority of shooting public.

Stevie-Ray
April 3, 2011, 03:20 PM
The only real difference between the G19 and G29SF is the width, which is .09 inches.
Did they add another half-inch to the length of the grip of the SF model? Because that's where the big difference between the 19 and 29 is. The 29 has a tiny grip and I find myself wondering why Glock did this, as the power of the 10mm cartridge would seem to warrant a larger grip. Don't get me wrong, I love my G29, but even the G30 which is sometimes called the "twin" of the 29 has a bit longer grip.

swinokur
April 3, 2011, 03:31 PM
No they didn't. I use Pearce +0 mag bottom plates to give my pinky a place to rest on

For HD I use G20 mags and an A & G mag sleeve.

The G30 grip and magazine are slightly longer because of the larger 45 ACP cartridge being slightly larger. I use the Pearce +0 base plates on them as well. Doesen't really add to the portio of the grip that might print

Mainsail
April 3, 2011, 03:41 PM
That's sort of my point, the .40S&W was created to make a 10mm fit into a 9mm sized frame and gun. The G29SF proves you can have full power 10mm in a 9mm sized gun. Is it exactly the same size? No. It's close enough for me though, and as I head out in a few minutes, there's a G29SF on my belt with ten rounds of 200gr hollow point.

SharpsDressedMan
April 3, 2011, 04:13 PM
At the present time, there is no better compromise of power, capacity, and size than the Glock 29. If there is some thing better, or equal, show me.

Loosedhorse
April 3, 2011, 04:20 PM
^

11 rounds of almost-.41 Mag in a pistol that can drop into a big pocket? I agree.

But isn't that off-topic? I thought we're discussing what's wrong with 10mm! ;)

After all, a .40 will stop a siberian tiger (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5405492.html)--who needs more than that? :cool:

harrygunner
April 3, 2011, 04:34 PM
Nothing wrong with the 10mm. Great round.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d199/harrygunner/10mm/10mm_commander_top.jpg

SharpsDressedMan: At the present time, there is no better compromise of power, capacity, and size than the Glock 29.

A G29 was compelling enough for me to ignore my distaste for Glocks. I photoed a G29 and a J-frame to gauge its size.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d199/harrygunner/misc/sw640_on_g29_2.jpg

SharpsDressedMan
April 3, 2011, 06:20 PM
OK, what's wrong with the 10mm, particularly the Glock 29? Well, 11 rounds of 10mm in a polymer pistol DOES have a little heft! Probably a bit heavier than a scandium J-frame (but LOTS more, harder hitting ammo!) Everything comes at a price.

Strahley
April 3, 2011, 07:55 PM
You must wear some huge pants if you can pocket carry a Glock 29

legion3
April 3, 2011, 08:09 PM
http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/10mm


Looks expensive to me. And take out double Tap (and Dt is not cheap) and the choices dwindle considerably on SD ammo. Hornady is about the best price for SD ammo.

50 search hits and half are Double Tap.

Loosedhorse
April 3, 2011, 08:13 PM
I don't pocket carry it. But it does fit (and print) in many front pockets, and works fine in cargo pockets or deep jacket pockets.

DammitBoy
April 7, 2011, 12:15 PM
What's the best 10mm forum?

swinokur
April 7, 2011, 12:17 PM
The 10 ring on Glock Talk and ar15armory.com

duncan
April 7, 2011, 01:00 PM
Dammitboy:

The best 10mm forum on the Net is definitely GlockTalk's 10 Ring:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

The founder of DoubleTap Ammo, McNett, frequents commonly.

JR of Lone Wolf Dist is a member too and he makes 10mm barrels as well as 40SW and 357 sig conversion barrels for those 10mm Glocks.

Lots of guys with Glock 20s, Glock 29s, Colt Delta Elites, SW 610s, SW 1076s, 10mm carbines and so forth.

That is the source.

duncan
April 7, 2011, 01:04 PM
Federal 180 gr. Hydra-Shok
Buffalo Bore 180 gr. JHC
Winchester175 gr. Silvertip
Hornady 200 gr. XTP
And a few of DoubleTap's 180/200 SD loadings

I carry DoubleTap because his loads where probably developed out of Glock 20 barrels.
How many do you need?

Dunedain
April 7, 2011, 02:51 PM
A great place to get quality 10mm ammo is www.swampfoxgunworks.com

The ammo can be loaded with your choice of bullet of whatever is available from bullet makers, you can even special order the type of cases used if you have a preference, and the quality and customer service is top-notch. And if you want true full-power ammo in 10mm, or any other caliber that is loaded there, they offer ammo that is loaded hot (+p, +p+, etc.) and that actually delivers the fps speeds that are claimed.

Below are some videos showing full-power 10mm rounds from swampfox being fired and showing the speeds on a chronograph. You've got to love the sound of full-tilt 10mm rounds being fired, wow! hehe :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-3yRsG1Qzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4keAf4Cyt4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlEMOv2W3mA&feature=related

MAC USMC
April 7, 2011, 03:12 PM
The FBI shoot-out in Miami generated the search for an improved, more lethal round. The 10mm was born and excited lots of police agencies and civilian shooters. The 10mm is potent, but it takes getting used to and new police trainees, and others with small hands, did not perform well with it.

I noticed it has a big "signature" when fired at night, which would impact night vision in a gun battle. The power of this round and the resulting recoil accellerates wear and tear in any handgun, especially if it is not all steel. Although I like the 10mm I would NOT choose it for police duty nor as my personal defense choice. Those 2nd and following shots can make the difference in real life scenarios. Some would have difficulty getting back on target after the first shot and gun control can be an issue during rapid fire.

There are some great calibers available and each tend to fill a "need", the 10mm does not serve that purpose. I do own one and like to shoot it, BUT - - - - - -.

Lou McGopher
April 7, 2011, 03:26 PM
whats wrong with 10mm?It's too weak.

Dunedain
April 7, 2011, 08:03 PM
Oh yes, waaay under-powered. ;)

legion3
April 8, 2011, 05:36 AM
It's too weak.

Oh yes, waaay under-powered.


Well the 10mm isn't in theory but lots of factory ammo is way under powered. And unfortunately the stuff that isn't can be quite expensive. Couple in DT's wide swings in velocity which have been reported and at $40/50 a box :uhoh: that is quite daunting.

Dunedain
April 8, 2011, 12:40 PM
legion3: That's why if one wants real full-power 10mm ammo, I recommend swampfox, no wide swings in velocity there, the ammo actually performs at the speeds that are claimed. :)

IdahoLT1
April 8, 2011, 05:31 PM
Well the 10mm isn't in theory but lots of factory ammo is way under powered. And unfortunately the stuff that isn't can be quite expensive. Couple in DT's wide swings in velocity which have been reported and at $40/50 a box



That's not the case anymore, maybe 10 years ago.

As far as I've tested, the ones that are under powered are American eagle, CCI Blazer, federals hydra shock, PMC, some of Hornadys loads. The manufacturers that offer loads that are in the mid to high range that I've tested are Winchesters silvertips, double tap, buffalo bore, some hornady loads, Remington UMC, Cor-Bon, grizzly ammunition and even Ultramax.

As far as price goes, of course its gonna be a bit more expensive. The 10mm isn't for everyone but if one has access to a reloader, its by far the best caliber to have in a semi auto handgun.

10mmluver
April 8, 2011, 05:35 PM
I load my own 10mm ammo. Starline makes good quality brass and Berrys makes a few double strike plated bullets that can handle the extra velocity. I hunt regularly with my G20 with a Lonewolf 6" barrel and my Delta Elite, I have collected a few deer and a hog or two. I find if you can shoot the 357mag well, then the 10mm with full power loads wont be a problem.

Hunt480
April 8, 2011, 06:28 PM
Not trying to change the subject but, who makes the best 10mm for hunting purposes?

SSN Vet
April 8, 2011, 08:06 PM
10mm is a reloaders cartridge! Pure & simple.

The difference between 40 s&w & 10mm is significant and quantifiable

SAMMI max. pressure is 37,500 psi. Vs. 32,633 psi.

You can't really exploit this if you don't reload though.

Pushing max loads in the 40 s&w is not something I'm interested in doing.

Do I need a 10 mm? No.
Do I want one? You bet I do.
38 super is higher on my wish list though. ;)

billybob44
April 8, 2011, 08:09 PM
Funny anecdote on that one actually .. I was at the local gunshow this last weekend and was asking around for 10mm brass ...
The only merchant there who had any (which he actually found sorting through his other stuff) actually looked at me and with this pitying look gave me the entirety of his stock ... for free ... six pieces of brass. >.<
Did about the same-One dealer had a bag (87cases) of fired 10MM. I paid him $8.00 to take them off of his hands..Bill.

billybob44
April 8, 2011, 08:14 PM
Not trying to change the subject but, who makes the best 10mm for hunting purposes?
If you like the plastic format-Glock G-20. If you like the steel/1911 format- Colt Delta. There are others, but these I would recommend.

billybob44
April 8, 2011, 09:00 PM
Any one care to explain to some one that doesn't know much at all about reloading as to why a 10mm isn't a good caliber to start with? I plan to use the book loads to start with and keep them in the warm range nothing from the pits of hell yet. I will be using a single stage press, weighing out the powder by hand on a digital scale for each load, using starline brass, and probably hard cast semi-wad cutters.
Lowe, you'll do fine with the 10MM loading. IMO no different, as to difficulty than the .40 S&W. You will use LARGE pistol primers in the 10, rather then the SMALL pistol primers in the .40 S&W. BTW, watch out for NT cases in the 10MM+.45acp.-they are SMALL pistol primers. Set the NT cases back until you have the small primer set up in your press, and load the same as large pistol primer loads.
Glock and MOST experienced hand loaders do NOT recommend shooting cast bullets through the Glock factory barrels. Too much lead shaving-could cause hi pressure loads due to excessive lead/barrel restrictions. There are aftermarket barrels available for cast bullet loads. I bought a .40 S&W conversion barrel for my Glock G-20, to shoot my cheaper cast .40 S&W hand loads. I got mine from Lone Wolf.
For GREAT reading info., go to the Glock Talk Forum. There is a section there specifically for the 10MM loaders+lots of info. and also links to the Lone Wolf barrels.
Good luck on your 10MM loads+have fun..Bill.

PS:You'll probably find that your 10MM will NOT like Semi-Wad cutter bullets.-use Truncated nose/Round nose to start with. (Just my 2 cents worth)

duncan
April 9, 2011, 04:40 AM
I would NEVER shoot lead through a Glock factory barrel.

Lone Wolf makes some tight accurate aftermarket barrels for $120 or so:cool:

jackpinesavages
April 9, 2011, 09:18 AM
Not trying to change the subject but, who makes the best 10mm for hunting purposes?


For general deer/hog hunting grab a G20, and with longer range drop-in a Storm Lake 6" barrel. Good stuff.

Dunedain
April 9, 2011, 01:12 PM
If you prefer your 10mm ammo with bullets a bit on the lighter side, but running at warp speed. Check out these swampfox 10mm videos below. Nice. :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NH_b37N4Q0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-n5GJjpF9Y

PabloJ
April 9, 2011, 01:27 PM
Just a wild guess but .357magnum and .40S&W ammo is available at stores like Walmart that carry ammo while 10mm is available nowhere in particular. When one can find it on the shelf the price is shocking. If someone wants something powerful they're more likely to choose .44Mag. Ammo is available at Walmart and .44 special and well-stocked big city gun stores.

SharpsDressedMan
April 9, 2011, 01:41 PM
I know a lot of handgun hunters that seem content to not fire more than a box of ammo every year through their hunting handgun. Be it .44 Mag, or 10mm, or whatever, if you are going to shoot a lot, say a couple hundred a month, then you'd better be rich, or start handloading. If you haven't started handloading yet, you are either overworked, uninformed, or lazy. :D Anyone who has a healthy interest in shooting ought to gve handloading a chance. You won't save money; just shoot more. I would not recommend the 10mm to a guy who plans on shooting a lot with factory ammo. For that person, 9mm, .40, or .45 are the way to go (for autos). As stated, that ammunition can be found most anywhere. If shooting a 10mm, and intending to shoot a lot, 10mm is a greater expense UNLESS YOU HANDLOAD. If you only fire a box of ammo a year for hunting, then the 10mm is not that much more expensive than anything else.

10mmluver
April 9, 2011, 02:09 PM
Midway USA has 10mm ammo in their April 2011 sale flyer. Its double tap ammo and its all excellent quality.

Dunedain
April 9, 2011, 08:21 PM
10mmluver: The problem is that people buy double tap 10mm (and other calibers) high-performance JHP ammo and pay a premium for it because double tap claims this ammo is full power with very high speeds, which they even list on the labels on the boxes. But I've seen videos on youtube that show double tap ammo that was loaded in the last year or so (check the video dates) is clearly not giving these speeds that double tap claims on the label, sometimes not even close. Below are two of those videos you can check out.

Double tap either needs to load their ammo properly and give customers what they say there are giving them when the customers hand over their money, or they need to change the speeds claims on their web site and on their ammo boxes and lower the prices down. Because they aren't giving customers what they are paying for.

The overall quality of the ammo might be good, but that's not enough. When someone buys a Ford Mustang Shelby GT 500, they don't expect just a nice looking car, they also expect to get the big 500 HP engine under the hood that Ford tells them is there, not a 375 HP engine. Check the videos, you'll see what I mean on the double tap ammo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSJgHErJ6YE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXtvBhneM&feature=related

DammitBoy
April 9, 2011, 08:28 PM
I just go with the Hornady 200 grain JHP for $18 a box.

Ruger745
April 9, 2011, 08:51 PM
The 10mm is a great cartridge, that's why the FBI tried to adopt it in the 80's. They went with the 40 S&W since they were able to maintain a thinner grip on pistols since the 10mm can be too long for some peoples hands. It's not the fact that people don't like it, it's more of that ammo can be hard to find, depending on where you live, and if you don't reload it, it can be expensive.
Undoubtedly, the 10mm is the ultimate round for self-defense. Given the choice between a 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45ACP, I would hands down go for the 10mm since it can be used for a wide variety of self defense applications.

If you're looking for an awesome 10mm pistol, look at the Sphinx 3000 that KRISS is now importing from Switzerland. 18+1 rounds of 10mm on the high capacity version.

Hope this offered some good reasoning,
Tom

God created men. Samuel Colt made them equal

DammitBoy
April 9, 2011, 09:07 PM
It's not the fact that people don't like it, it's more of that ammo can be hard to find, depending on where you live...

Doesn't the internet eliminate this problem? MidwayUSA is easy to find.

Dunedain
April 9, 2011, 09:29 PM
Ruger745: Where is this Sphinx 3000 in 10mm, I didn't see it at their site. http://www.sphinxarms.com/

Edit: Oh, I found it, you have to click on high cap version. :)

legion3
April 10, 2011, 07:00 AM
Ruger745: Where is this Sphinx 3000 in 10mm, I didn't see it at their site.

How much $ will that set you back??? Given the price of normal Sphinx guns not a little I wager. Another expensive single action gun? Just what the cartridge needs huh? I also read that the 3000 mags are going for $75 is that true?


Undoubtedly, the 10mm is the ultimate round for self-defense.

No evidence of this at all. The 10mm actually dissapointed more than it ever performed as the ultimate man stopper. Even vs 4 legged critters where it has some good success other wheel gun magnums are probably better.

If it was the "ultimate" it would be carried by far more people (including cops) than it currently is. With cops the 357 Sig and 45 GAP are actually issued, what force actually issues the 10mm?

that's why the FBI tried to adopt it in the 80's.

They did adopt it in 1990 (SW 1076) and it was Bureau issue for a little under 5 years before the Glock 40's took over.

They went with the 40 S&W since they were able to maintain a thinner grip on pistols since the 10mm can be too long for some peoples hands.

:confused: The grip on the single stack Smith 1076 is "thinner" that the grips on the Glock 23 which was the Bureaus 40 cal main gun. The 1076 is a bigger overall and much heavier gun but in the grips ???

legion3
April 10, 2011, 07:10 AM
Doesn't the internet eliminate this problem? MidwayUSA is easy to find.

Midway USA has 10mm ammo in their April 2011 sale flyer. Its double tap ammo and its all excellent quality.

Midway does seem to have a lot of ammo choices, several are out of stock (some with no backorder available) but of those they do have I don't see any cheap choices. Do they charge shipping? If so the ammo cost on line seems to be quite pricey.

$18 for 20 rounds of Hornady seems to be the best, which is not to bad I suppose. But $39 and up for 50 rounds...

The problem is two fold somewhat hard to find ammo coupled with often very pricey ammo.

The 10mm has many pluses but often not enough for it to be embraced by the shooting public overall.

10mmluver
April 10, 2011, 11:56 AM
The problem is, the .400 caliber is an excellent penetrater. It OVER penetrates whatever target it encounters unless heavy bone is encountered. The 10mm never gets the chance it fully deserves, the bullet selection is now getting better because of the 40 Slow & Weak's popularity. Yet there are still few people willing to give it the proper chance to prove it self as a great hunter and self protection cartridge. The key is, and always will be, proper bullet selection. Im useing a Hornady XTP 180gr for ALL my Deer hunting with the 10mm and getting excellent results handloading it myself.

Ruger745
April 10, 2011, 03:01 PM
It does, but not for all if shipping equals what your purchase is, that makes it pretty expensive. When I was in Montana last summer, I noticed more 10mm ammo there compared to Colorado and Wyoming.

Sorry, should have elaborated

JoelSteinbach
April 10, 2011, 03:14 PM
Nothing

IdahoLT1
April 11, 2011, 03:40 AM
No evidence of this at all. The 10mm actually dissapointed more than it ever performed as the ultimate man stopper. Even vs 4 legged critters where it has some good success other wheel gun magnums are probably better.

If it was the "ultimate" it would be carried by far more people (including cops) than it currently is. With cops the 357 Sig and 45 GAP are actually issued, what force actually issues the 10mm



Simple physics says it will be at the top of the self defense food chain. There's a reason why its legal to hunt deer with a 10mm in most States and not the 9mm, 40 or 45. If I come across a large bodied threat, I want deep penetrating rounds. A 200gr. bullet @1250fps is better suited for that than a 230gr. one @900fps. There's no other autoloading caliber that can be as powerful, as controllable and put into a compact or even sub compact pistol.

Only a few LE departments issue it but ~10% of the departments authorize its use.

legion3
April 11, 2011, 06:59 AM
Simple physics says it will be at the top of the self defense food chain.

Physics say lots of things but physics never shot some one. (just like Blue books never purchased a gun despite what they say the value is) Do you have any real hard evidence of its street success? I know its a good critter gun but as a manstopper?

Again if this were true then it would be carried by far more people for two legged SD purposes and it isn't.


There's no other autoloading caliber that can be as powerful, as controllable and put into a compact or even sub compact pistol.

What sub compact would that be? The Glock 29 is the smallest 10mm I have seen or owned and its no sub compact and darn near no compact either.

Again if this were true then it would be carried by far more people for SD purposes and it isn't.

Only a few LE departments issue it but ~10% of the departments authorize its use.

Which ones issue it, who are these few? 10% of the total departments authorize it? What tiny, tiny fraction does that come out to be? A needle in a haystack comes to mind. 5 State police forces issue the 45GAP I bet that % is way way more than 10%of overall departments.

Hey I'm glad you guys like the 10mm as I said before I was a big proponent of the 10mm back in the day. Owned a buch of the classic 10mm platforms and shot plenty of the older full powered loads and certinly do see where the 10mm shines but lets not make it more than what it is. It is a niche round, with a solid following that is a reloaders dream but that has been rejected by the majority of the shooting public either in or out of uniform.

And unless the guns (only Glock and EAA are decent price points) and ammo come down in price and that ammo becomes easier to find that dynamic will not change anytime soon.

harrygunner
April 11, 2011, 12:05 PM
Dr. Gary Roberts from http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439&page=2

A well designed, full power, 200 gr 10 mm generally offers superior terminal effects compared with .40 S&W, as the 10 mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ...

The 10mm is one of few service rounds that produces a temporary wound cavity that could affect the outcome.

Mainsail
April 11, 2011, 12:11 PM
So then to summarize; the people who own 10mm really love the round and the guns that shoot them, and people who used to or don’t own a 10mm don’t.

Glad we got that worked out.
:cool:

SharpsDressedMan
April 11, 2011, 12:12 PM
The Glock 29 is NOT widely owned or carried. I predict that when people wake up and/or find a need for a more powerful pistol in a reasonably small package (compare it to the usual 2" snumbnose steel frame revolver), they will flock to the Glock 29. Other guns may come to be designed around the 10mm in a compact package, but for now the G29 is hard to beat. Of course, people who flinch a lot probably should stick with pistols that bark and jump less...................

legion3
April 11, 2011, 12:46 PM
The 10mm is one of few service rounds that produces a temporary wound cavity that could affect the outcome.

Great but this tidbit does not change the fact that the 10mm is not widely used for 2 legged SD purposes...why? There must be a reason if its the ultimate SD handgun round?

I predict that when people wake up and/or find a need for a more powerful pistol in a reasonably small package (compare it to the usual 2" snumbnose steel frame revolver), they will flock to the Glock 29.

Apart from assuming that people haven't yet woken up to the 10mm's power packed need, I predict they won't flock to the Glock 29 or any 10mm given the price and lack of choice in ammo. Also if the gun saw no huge uptick during the AWB and 10 round ban when is it going to?

These days pocket 380's are being produced by almost every maker, compact 10mm's ? not so much so.

Other guns may come to be designed around the 10mm in a compact package,

When? Who? After Vltor's mess who knows?

but for now the G29 is hard to beat.

Now I do agree with this, if you want a 10mm the Glock 29 is hard to beat, low cost, good capacity, light weight, plenty of aftermarke stuff and holsters and relatively concealable compared to other 10mm choices.

SharpsDressedMan
April 11, 2011, 04:59 PM
Why keep bringing up the price of ammo? Reload your brass. Shoot twice as much as budget 9mm.

legion3
April 11, 2011, 05:27 PM
Why keep bringing up the price of ammo? Reload your brass. Shoot twice as much as budget 9mm


Yes but most people won't ever reload, and the OP's question was what's wrong with the 10mm? Any cartridge that requires you to reload to make the most of without spending a fortune on factory ammo has some "appealing to the masses" problems.

As many before me pointed out the cost and availability of ammo. Good that you can roll your own but I would bet the vast majority of shooters don't reload and that makes ammo a overall problem.

The 10mm (both guns and rounds) will remain fringe as long as its economic costs are prohibative in this way.

SSN Vet
April 12, 2011, 03:43 PM
There must be a reason if its the ultimate SD handgun round?

the reason has been articulated by several posts in this thread...

1. To make a 10 mm sing, you have to load it hot... and big name factory ammo. mfgs don't. So you've got to re-load or plop down some serious cash for boutique ammo.

2. When loaded hot, the 10 mm can be a hand full, and when combined with the longer grip, it is often too big and too hot for girly men (as is .44 mag with a honkin' 8" barrel).

But if you roll your own, open carry on a thick duty belt that carries heavy steal frame pistols easilly, have medium to big hands and don't flinch at earth shattering kabooms, then Lord help the poor soul you point your 10 mm at.

10 mm is an great reloaders niche cartridge for people who can pack heavy pistols and shoot hot pistols. No more, no less.

Sublime865
April 12, 2011, 06:42 PM
I must comment, I own a Glock 20. It is my everyday carry, I shoot Federal Premium Personal Defense because it's what I can get. For pushing paper, I can go anywhere in 25 miles and have 1000+ rounds available to me. It is my only handgun at the moment, not by choice but because of finances. I feel comfortable in knowing I can (in a defense situation mind you) take down anything from a fisher cat to a deer, moose, or bear, all of which common in the areas I camp, hike, live, and work.

Then again I say screw trying to conceal it and just open carry, I love Vermont. :)

Clark
April 13, 2011, 02:01 AM
I own a Glock 20 and it is a very well designed handgun.
But the 10mm is one of the poorest designed cartridges in existence.
Large primer pocket and deep extractor groove.. FAIL!

That is why the 40sw is more powerful than the 10mm with hot handloads.

SSN Vet
April 13, 2011, 01:13 PM
fisher cat

good luck getting one of those in your sights :)

IdahoLT1
April 13, 2011, 07:13 PM
That is why the 40sw is more powerful than the 10mm with hot handloads.



??

The 40s&w will never be more powerful than the 10mm.

Xfire68
April 13, 2011, 07:20 PM
I say there is nothing "Wrong" with the 10mm! I want one and I am saving my penny's to buy one!

Yes ammo can be hard to find but, once I get enough brass I will be fine for a bit.

LoweInc
April 13, 2011, 10:27 PM
IMHO The 10mm is great, ammo isn't hard to come by. Buy your ammo online or in bulk at a show(gas,ga arms) man up and quit being a daffodil full power loads have a little recoil but remember that the round you just sent down range knocked the flying dog f*** out of something. Cheap bulk loads aren't as potent but that paper you are punching holes in has no idea. Shoot a few clips of the good stuff but save the rest for special occasions and social work. 1000 rounds of "target loads" and 500 zombie loads and your good. Replace after use or roll your own.

eam3clm@att.net
April 13, 2011, 11:18 PM
THERE IS ACTUALLY ONE POLICE DEPT IN MY AREA THAT CARRIES THE 10MM GLOCK. I HAVE SHOT ONE AND IT DIDNT SEEM THAT THE RECOIL WAS BAD. AS FOR COST OF AMMO IT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTERS BUDGET. LETS FACE IT IN TODAYS ECONOMY 22LR IS ALL SOME PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO SHOOT WHILE OTHERS CANNOT AFFORD TO ENJOY THE SHOOTING SPORTS. AS WITH ANY GUN THE 10MM HAS A PURPOSE, BUT REMEMBER THAT WHERE YOU PUT THE HOLE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOW BIG THE HOLE IS. IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE 10MM IT IS NOT FOR YOU. MYSELF I LIKE THE 40s&W AND HAVE TRUSTED MY LIFE, MY PARTNERS LIFE, AND THE CITIZENS LIFE ON IT WHILE ON DUTY. I DONT LIKE TO BASH OTHERS PEOPLE'S CHOICE IN WHAT CALIBER AS NO ONE CALIBER WILL SUITE EVERYONE'S NEEDS. i HAVE HEARD COUNTLESS TIMES THAT A 380 IS A POOR DEFENSIVE ROUND AND THAT IS TRUE IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSKILLED UNTRAINED SHOOTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE SITUATIONAL AWARNESS TO REALIZE THAT HIS TRUCK IS OUT OF GAS.

DammitBoy
April 14, 2011, 01:08 AM
How about the situational awareness to get off the frikken Caps Lock key? :uhoh:

legion3
April 14, 2011, 06:14 AM
THERE IS ACTUALLY ONE POLICE DEPT IN MY AREA THAT CARRIES THE 10MM GLOCK. I HAVE SHOT ONE AND IT DIDNT SEEM THAT THE RECOIL WAS BAD. AS FOR COST OF AMMO IT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTERS BUDGET. LETS FACE IT IN TODAYS ECONOMY 22LR IS ALL SOME PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO SHOOT WHILE OTHERS CANNOT AFFORD TO ENJOY THE SHOOTING SPORTS. AS WITH ANY GUN THE 10MM HAS A PURPOSE, BUT REMEMBER THAT WHERE YOU PUT THE HOLE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOW BIG THE HOLE IS. IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE 10MM IT IS NOT FOR YOU. MYSELF I LIKE THE 40s&W AND HAVE TRUSTED MY LIFE, MY PARTNERS LIFE, AND THE CITIZENS LIFE ON IT WHILE ON DUTY. I DONT LIKE TO BASH OTHERS PEOPLE'S CHOICE IN WHAT CALIBER AS NO ONE CALIBER WILL SUITE EVERYONE'S NEEDS. i HAVE HEARD COUNTLESS TIMES THAT A 380 IS A POOR DEFENSIVE ROUND AND THAT IS TRUE IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSKILLED UNTRAINED SHOOTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE SITUATIONAL AWARNESS TO REALIZE THAT HIS TRUCK IS OUT OF GAS.

:eek:

IMHO The 10mm is great, ammo isn't hard to come by. Buy your ammo online or in bulk at a show(gas,ga arms) man up and quit being a daffodil full power loads have a little recoil but remember that the round you just sent down range knocked the flying dog f*** out of something. Cheap bulk loads aren't as potent but that paper you are punching holes in has no idea. Shoot a few clips of the good stuff but save the rest for special occasions and social work. 1000 rounds of "target loads" and 500 zombie loads and your good. Replace after use or roll your own.

:eek:


In many languages, the fundamental unit of composition is the paragraph.

eam3clm@att.net
April 14, 2011, 09:43 AM
Caps lock key is on on purpose

Dunedain
April 17, 2011, 02:58 PM
It is $75 for mags for the Sphinx 3000? Ouch, and I thought H&K pistol mags were bad. :) Looks like a superbly built Swiss pistol, though, and comes in a variety of calibers, including 10mm and .45 acp with very high ammo capacity. :)

RinkRat
April 18, 2011, 12:50 AM
I am thinking about a G29 but think I'll get the G20 instead ... No the 29 ... No 20???? No the ... HELP I'M ON THOUGHT OVER LOAD < and my cap key just got stuck

And a drop-in KKM barrel to shoot HC lead for those times that a furry footed burrower may try to take me home to feed their young while I'm hiking in Mother Nature's bounty!

And a beefier recoil spring to lighten the load too.

And if I don't feel like toting my G26 I may CCW it instead and if I DO need it in a SD situation and I happen to miss my intended BG target then I have a feeling the son-tic shock-wave and muzzle-blast will be enough to give me time to truck my fat a$$ out of there to safety??

CMC
April 18, 2011, 01:58 PM
The 40 short and wimpy will never be able to have more performance than the 10 mm .
The 10 has more powder capacity and a higher pressure rating.
It is the same as saying the 30 06 can be loaded hotter than the 300 win mag.

GLOOB
April 19, 2011, 07:10 AM
^^ 10mm would most probably be untouchable out of a carbine or with heavier bullets. But with a light bullet and fired from a short barrel, the 40 doesn't really give up that much case capacity. Remember, pressure ratings are there for the gun, not the brass. And methinks Clark is well exceeding these feeble, arbitrary limits, anyways. And he never stated what kind of gun he was shooting these superhot 40 handloads out of. For all we know it was a 10mm pistol. Loaded to an OAL of 1.26".

If you wanna talk case capacity, compare .357 magnum to 9mm +P+, using 124/5 grain bullets out of a 2" revolver. You get basically the same velocity, despite a huge difference in case capacity.

Until I've made my own handloads that rupture brass, blow out primers, rip off rims, and blow up guns, I'll just take Clark's word for it. :)

It is the same as saying the 30 06 can be loaded hotter than the 300 win mag.
Not quite. Clark pointed out 2 differences between 40 and 10mm brass that have nothing to do with capacity. A better analogy might be saying you could load modern SPP .38 special cases hotter than original .357 magnum cases (with the LPP pockets).... in a suitable .357 magnum revolver. A larger hole in the head of the brass makes it weaker. The LPP case will get stuck in the cylinder at lower pressures than the SPP case.

cookmonsta
April 19, 2011, 03:40 PM
ammo is scarce and expensive

LoweInc
April 19, 2011, 06:18 PM
Na, ammo is pricey and is easier to order on the internet than to find in a store.

CMC
April 20, 2011, 02:39 PM
SAMMI test are done in a universal barrel dont have nothing to do with a particular firearm.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm
Case capacity for a 10 mm is 24 gr 40 S &W is 19.3 gr that is a big difference.

Sammi Pressure for the 10 mm is 37,500 for the 40 it is 35,000 psi.

Energy for a 200 gr bullet out of a 10 is 700 ft-pounds vs. 392 ft -pounds for the same bullet in a 40 almost double.
No comparison hence the name short & wimpy.
The above are facts and industry standards , dont care what you can do reloading.
If you want to risk the gun blowing in your face trying to get 10 mm performance out of the 40 have at it .

GLOOB
April 21, 2011, 04:22 AM
Ok. Point taken. But case capacity and SAAMI pressure specs aren't necessarily the take away points, here. This thread is titled "What's wrong with the 10mm." And the design of the brass is one mark against it.

If you load wimpy ammo for it, then you'll be happy ever after knowing you have a gun that has the potential to be powerful. But if you chase the "near .41 mag performance," your brass will:

A) bulge in a G20, even with an aftermarket barrel, and
B) get loose primer pockets after only a few loadings.

And of course, 10mm brass isn't exactly cheap.

If you shoot factory ammo, then toss the brass, then this isn't a downside. But many people that shoot 10mm also reload for it.

The .38/.357 transitioned to small primers decades ago. There's no good reason for the 10mm to use a LPP.

SAMMI test are done in a universal barrel dont have nothing to do with a particular firearm.
SAAMI, schmammy. My point is that you load for the gun, not the brass. I can load a .38 special case to .357 pressures and shoot it out of a .357 magnum revolver, safely. When I cut down luger brass to make mak cases, I load them to mak pressures. There are also "Ruger only" 45LC loads made specifically for certain firearms.

SharpsDressedMan
April 22, 2011, 05:38 PM
I reload 10mm all the time. I do not see any downside to the cartridge. If a barrel chamber from any gun is oversized, send it back. To condemn a cartridge because of poorly machined barrels is wrong. Condemn the barrels. I get lots of loadings from my 10mm cases.

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2011, 10:51 AM
I've been reloading 10mm a long time, and I don't load light. My defense load (that I shoot quite a lot) is slighlty over published data and pushes a 180 grain pill at 1,406 FPS avg. from my S&W 1006, 1,342 from my 3.5" Witness Compact. I've had a few case head separations on brass that was loaded 5 or 6 times, but never a loose primer pocket. IMO, the large primer is a non-issue.

On that note, of the reasons the .40 uses a small primer is that the case head and web are thinner..............

gym
April 23, 2011, 01:07 PM
I think that there are too many callibers for the ammo companies to concentrate on a load that is not one of their big sellers, 9, 40, 45.,or even their second tier 38, 357, 44&44 mag. Now we have 380, 327, 32, 25, 41mag, all the euro stuff like for the FN, makarov etc. So the 10 simplly dosen't sell enough to prioritize it in line for R&D. It could have been the next big thing untill the FBI dumped it, and It wasn't for any other reason than their "smaller officers" were having a tough time controllling it and it hurt their little hands. Not because any flaw in the ideology or design of the round.
Female officers just did not like the pounding they were getting, and small framed "non shooters". You don't have to be a gun guy to be an FBI agent, mostlly they are lawyers with guns.

Casefull
April 23, 2011, 10:50 PM
Most shooters are recoil challenged...In that sense the 10mm has same problem as 44 magnum. Personally I enjoy stiff recoil...I know I have a real gun in my hand.

10.mm4life
August 15, 2011, 01:59 AM
double tap ammo has brought the power of the 10.mm round to new levels. You get the stoping power of a 41.magnum out of there stuff combine that with the mag capacity of the glock 20 or eaa pistols and you have the what i would consider well the best help a man can get out of a pistol. Its hard to find 10.mm ammo at your local gun shop generaly but if you dont mind ording your ammo online and haveing it deliverd theres tone of options even cheaper than dirt sportsmans guide and midway all have at least half a dozon or more 10.mm loads for sale. You can also order directly from the double tap website and they have good prices and the best ammo for 10.mm in my book. I have aglock 20sf and i love it Its the most acureat pistol i own

Warp
August 15, 2011, 02:19 AM
I say Buffalo Bore > Double Tap. Anybody who has done some real world testing with a chronograph will be a bit hesitant to believe much of anything Double Tap says. But they, it's a lot less expensive so most people are willing to settle for Double Tap since they are still hotter than the mainline stuff

legion3
August 15, 2011, 06:19 AM
Double Tap has definately had some issues with the facts, substituting bullets (montana gold) for gold dots that are not Gold dots but still selling them as Gold Dots.

Several reports that bullet weights when measured did not = the stated weight.

And rampant chrono speed issues.

That said the vast majority of customers seem satisfied with both the product and the company. And so few ammo makers even make a 10mm round let alone anywhere near a full power load.


Really the bottom line with the 10mm is that it had its chance to be something special, instead it ended up out of favor with LE and with the shooting public at large.

Plenty of factors led to this situation but the vast majority of the shooting world has rejected the 10mm.

tinygnat219
August 15, 2011, 07:23 AM
The 10MM cartridge, while one of my favorites, has gone the way of the .41 Magnum and has become a niche cartridge. It's sad, but that's the way the shooting world has gone. I own and shoot a Glock 20, S&W 1076, and a S&W 610 revolver. I'd LOVE for the 10MM to come back as a custom shop option for the XD / XD-M, and M&P pistols. However, I just don't see that happening.

SharpsDressedMan
August 15, 2011, 07:57 AM
The 10mm is still alive and well here in Ohio. My brother and his buddy just bought 3 Glock 20's between them, and after shooting my G29, they are starting to get the itch for that. We also share coffee with a parmedic that is a Glock 20 owner. I have a G20, G29, S&W 1006, and custom Caspian in 10mm. I'm sure we'll add a few more 10mm fans to our cadre of coffee drinkers in the future.

Warp
August 15, 2011, 10:28 PM
Double Tap has definately had some issues with the facts, substituting bullets (montana gold) for gold dots that are not Gold dots but still selling them as Gold Dots.

Several reports that bullet weights when measured did not = the stated weight.

And rampant chrono speed issues.

That said the vast majority of customers seem satisfied with both the product and the company. And so few ammo makers even make a 10mm round let alone anywhere near a full power load.


Really the bottom line with the 10mm is that it had its chance to be something special, instead it ended up out of favor with LE and with the shooting public at large.

Plenty of factors led to this situation but the vast majority of the shooting world has rejected the 10mm.

The majority of customers never shoot it through a chronograph, pull bullets to measure their weight or look up reports from those who did. They see the awesomely fast advertised velocities and, combined with a little more recoil than they are maybe used to, just assume they are getting what they are paying for not realizing they are feeding money into a company that seems to do nothing but lie to/deceive it's customers.

viper7342
August 16, 2011, 12:04 AM
I have a FBI turn in which still has the mag release whereas the gun will not fire with the mag out...

That's called a magazine safety.

swinokur
August 16, 2011, 09:26 AM
The FBI 1076 WILL fire with the magazine out.

intercooler
August 16, 2011, 09:57 AM
10mm Stats I keep adding to. These are mostly G20 with a few out of my Witness 10mm.


DoubleTap hater here just due to them never meeting claims any caliber.

I am a fan of Underwood!

FWIW I ordered Buffalo Bore 200gr FMJ to almost complete out the list of available offerings. I will Chrony it next week and update the sheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&hl=en_US#gid=0

CamaroLovr
August 16, 2011, 10:01 AM
Not bad prices on the Underwood. Are they usually pretty good about keeping in stock? What kind of hollow point do they use?

intercooler
August 16, 2011, 01:14 PM
I think most of their bullets are Sierra. Never had a stock issue

patentnonsense
August 18, 2011, 12:57 AM
9x25 Dillon! I hate Glocks, but (seriously) I'm going to have to get a G20 just to try the 9x25 barrel in it.

Matt McNett has been a great proselytizer, but Double Tap ammo is EXPENSIVE. I usually shoot UMC, but even that isn't cheap - I'm happy to find it for 25 a box, but you can find good 45 under 20, and 9 under 10.

RedRoomFotog
August 31, 2011, 03:35 PM
I have no problem finding 1 or 2 boxes of 38 Super ammo...but I hate having to leave a grandchild with the seller as payment...

JROC
August 31, 2011, 07:20 PM
9x25 Dillon! I hate Glocks, but (seriously) I'm going to have to get a G20 just to try the 9x25 barrel in it.

You get a G20SF, and you'll likely learn to love Glocks. Ask me how I know.

This is my Glock. There are a few others out there that are similar to it, but this one is mine.
http://i54.tinypic.com/24d3bdy.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2a4zol1.jpg

The problem with 10mm is it isn't more popular. 10mm is the best semi-auto round period. I don't care what anyone wants to come and argue. 10mm is better than .45ACP, .40 Short and Weak, 9mm, .357Sig, etc. Yeah I understand that to house it you need a .45ACP size gun, but it's called being a man. I have no problems at all firing either my G20 or my Colt Combat Elite, and never think to myself "man these guns are so big compared to full-size 9mm's, and .40 cals that they are uncomfortable or hard to handle" because I am in fact a man and can manage a little bit bigger gun with no problems what-so-ever, and I'm also not like all these people who try and find fault with the Glock grip angle, and try and convince myself that it's terrible, and I can be comfortable with pretty much any modern semi-auto.

I understand that it can be a little bigger than what most want for CC, but if you just want to have a big, powerful, manageable gun that does everything well/right a 10mm, and a G20SF is hard to beat.

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