CMP M1 for High Power?


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MtnCreek
February 4, 2011, 08:24 AM
I'm thinking about trying some NRA High Power. Whould a mid grade CMP M1 do the job? I checked out the CMP web site and they have some good looking rifles for around $800. I'm sure I could re-barrel if I enjoyed High Power. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Also, I checked out the requirments to purchase and that shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks!

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coyotehunter223
February 4, 2011, 10:11 AM
Spending the money on a potentially mediocre shooter and then more to rebarrel it, you may be suited better buying/building an AR15 or something else unless you just want a M1.

It would more than likely work fine for an intro into the sport, but I would just advise weighing all options before making your mind up.

dzelenka
February 4, 2011, 11:57 AM
You are barking up the wrong tree. It is a bad choice all the way around. A National Match AR-15 is cheaper to purchase (the CMP price for a Service Gradeor even Special Grade is just the beginning. To be remotely competitive, there is a lot of work that needs doing); much more accurate; easier to maintain (no bedding); has better sights; and is cheaper to feed. It is also more forgiving of a bad position; therefore, it is easier to shoot well. There is a reason 98% of service rifle shooters shoot one.

Do not let my advice make you believe that I don't like M1s or M1As. I have and use both in service rifle competition and can shoot Master scores with them. However, I shoot High Master scores with my ARs for less money and hassle. My wood guns are for fun, my ARs are for winning.

Do yourself a favor and start with an AR. It will make the learning curve easier.

fractal7
February 4, 2011, 02:05 PM
Have you shot high power matches before? If its something you are just considering getting into and not sure you could try a Garand and try to find either John C. Garand Matches locally or vintage rifle matches and shoot in those with a field grade garand (which are usually pretty decent shooters for $495 from the CMP I think) and get your feet wet that way.

If you do want to do highpower you could easily put together a fantastic rifle for around 1100, or try to find lightly used equipment cheaper. With the savings in ammunition between .223 and 30-06 it would probably pay for itself eventually, not to mention be more competitive.

So the question is if its something you really want to do, go with the AR, because if you start with a Garand and like it, you're going to end up with a Garand *and* an AR eventually.

MtnCreek
February 4, 2011, 02:56 PM
Would a higher quality M1 or M1A be competitive with the AR's? I've seen Springfield NM M1A's, but they're pretty costly.

I have several AR's, but nothing that'll shoot 600 meters. I do have a RRA stripped lower that needs a purpose. I think I also have an A2 buttstock laying around. If I go with an AR, whould it be a standard build, but with a 20" floated barrel?

WNTFW
February 4, 2011, 03:09 PM
I would go back & reread post #3 by Dan Zelenka.

AR is better all around. The M1 & M1A are great. All are fun. The AR is just the easiest way to go. You could probably get a used NM AR15 for similar money as a Garand. In the long run you would save money on ammo. The recoil is more on a Garand, more powder spent, sights better on AR. I have a Garand & AR. The AR is easier for me to hold. The ergonomics of an AR just work better for me.

WNTFW
February 4, 2011, 03:17 PM
Re post #5
You could get just get an upper. Combined with the finished lower you would be up & running easily.

I tend to favor commonality and with all the ARs on the line someone could probably loan you whatever you needed if you had a problem with the rifle at the range. Not the biggest selling point but at least it is not a down side.

The more I learn about ARs the more I am impressed with them.

dzelenka
February 4, 2011, 03:18 PM
Would a higher quality M1 or M1A be competitive with the AR's? I've seen Springfield NM M1A's, but they're pretty costly.

I have several AR's, but nothing that'll shoot 600 meters. I do have a RRA stripped lower that needs a purpose. I think I also have an A2 buttstock laying around. If I go with an AR, whould it be a standard build, but with a 20" floated barrel?
I would say no on the first question, especially for a beginner. I have some very good professionally built M1A and M1 service rifles with Krieger barrels and all of the bells and whistles. There is no getting over the fact that a decent AR will shoot a tighter group and has better sights. The last time I tested my short line load in an AR, it put 10 shots into just under 0.60" at 100 yards. To keep an M1 or M14 shooting at that level (provided you could get one to do so in the first place) would require an armorer on staff (like the military teams used to have when they shot these guns). An AR will shoot like that until the barrel wears out which can then be changed pretty cheaply.

Look at the White Oak Armament service rifle upper with pinned sights. It costs $750 and is capable of winning at the nationals. If you have a lower, you can build it out. If your budget can stand it, get the Geisselle service rifle trigger for $279. If not, either the Geisselle non adjustable trigger for $179 or a Rock River NM trigger for around $100 are both decent. If you have the lower and buttstock, you could be into a first rate AR-15 service rifle with the best trigger available for about $1100 or so. You will spend a LOT more building a decent M1 or M1A and be less competitive.

W.E.G.
February 4, 2011, 03:25 PM
Don't forget about Garand matches!

The rack-grade Garand will be fine for Garand matches.

The poodle-shooters win all the other matches.

35 Whelen
February 4, 2011, 08:46 PM
I'm thinking about trying some NRA High Power. Whould a mid grade CMP M1 do the job? I checked out the CMP web site and they have some good looking rifles for around $800. I'm sure I could re-barrel if I enjoyed High Power. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Also, I checked out the requirments to purchase and that shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks!

What type rifle do you want to shoot? Why do you want to shoot High Power? If you want to shoot and try to win, probably an AR is the way to go. However, if you WANT a Garand and you WANT to shoot a Garand, then get a Garand!! To me, it all boils down to WHY you're going to shoot High Power.

I shoot because I love to shoot and want to be a better marksman. Personally, I have zero interest in AR's and wouldn't enjoy shooting High Power with one. They bore me to death. Probably because I go to a match and the line is filled with AR's.
Don't let anyone tell you that have to shoot an AR to do well. 110% not true. There's a gentleman over at the Cast Boolit site (BobS) who is a Distinguished Marksman. He told me that he got his Master classification back in the '70's firing a modified 1903 Springfield shooting cast bullets at 200 and 300 yds., then switching to jacketed for 600.
I can tell you unhesitantly that the man behind the trigger is far more important than the rifle. For several years now, I've been shooting military bolts rifles extensively at the range here at my house. The Swiss K-31's and the 1903/03A3's I own will all shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds. with the right loads. This is plenty sufficient to hold the "10" ring on an SR-31 target.
Since I began shooting High Power two years ago, I've been shooting a Swiss K-31. I shoot strictly cast bullets, and I've done some modifications on the rifle. It's crazy accurate and shoots far, far better than I can hold, but I love shooting it. I've attained an Expert classification shooting it and my highest score has been 739-12X.
At first, all the guys against whom I compete snickered at my rifle and gave me hell about my loads some of which don't quite break the sound barrier. But after 6 months or so, they weren't laughing anymore because I was becoming a serious competitor. After a year had gone by, I began besting many of, and sometimes most of the AR guys!
Tomorrow, I'm letting one of the other competitors use my K-31. He's a 17 year old kid who already attained a Master classification shooting an AR. He shoots widely at the state level and has been to Camp Perry the last two or three years and done very well. He now wants to shoot a Master score with a bolt rifle. That my friends, is a rifleman in the making. He's learning to shoot well, not just shoot one rifle well. It'll be interesting to see what he can do with a 60 year old rifle, but I think I already know!
Regarding the Garand, I bought a CMP Garand back in the 90's before they were rating them, so I don't know how it would rate by todays CMP standards. I haven't shot it in a match yet, but I've shot it quite a bit here at the house and even with HXP ammo, I think it'd be a serious threat as it easily groups under 2" at 100 yds. So, I guess it's a crap shoot.

Again, figure out why you want to shoot; if it's for enjoyment, then shoot a gun that's interesting to you. If it's for the competition, then get YAWN....an AR.;)

35W

dzelenka
February 4, 2011, 08:55 PM
35 Whelen,

Aren't those K-31s a hoot? I have fired mine at 200 yard reduced course matches but never the full distance. I can shoot a pretty darn good score with one. However, that is for fun. You wouldn't see me on the line at Camp Perry with one.

Dan

35 Whelen
February 4, 2011, 11:37 PM
Aren't those K-31s a hoot? I have fired mine at 200 yard reduced course matches but never the full distance. I can shoot a pretty darn good score with one. However, that is for fun. You wouldn't see me on the line at Camp Perry with one.

They are a hoot. I haven't shot one seriously with issues sights yet. I've owned many over the years and they all shot so, so well.
Here's a few targets from the one (I own three) that I'm currently in love with as well as one that's still as-issued:
From past matches:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/NovMatchRapidProne.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/P1010075.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/P1010078.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/P1010076.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/June09match1.jpg

..and some targets I shot here at the house:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/NOEK31180edit-1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/DSC_0005.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/53K31withGP-11.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/53K31Group1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/43K-31Groups2-1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/39K-31Groups.jpg

35W

1KPerDay
February 5, 2011, 11:18 AM
Wow. :cool:

Jon Coppenbarger
February 5, 2011, 10:44 PM
as a few know I love shooting my ar's but I do like to shoot in the garand matches the local clubs have. laid back and lots of fun!

dzelenka
February 6, 2011, 03:14 AM
I managed 2nd place at the National Vintage Military rifle match with one of mine a couple years ago. I came back the following year and crossfired a 10 in slow prone. Even with that I still earned a gold medal. If I had shot my own target, I would have repeated my 2nd place performance. (dang 96 Mauser won it both years) I have 3 of them and 1500 rounds of GP11 so I am set. They are really fine rifles.

Pete D.
February 6, 2011, 06:22 AM
I have a K31. Please tell me about the rear sight on the gun shown in the pics. Available?

Pete

P-32
February 9, 2011, 05:07 PM
MtnCreek, I say go for it with your M-1. Keep in mind what it is though. One of the nice things about the 30 cal is you will learn how to hang on to the rifle during the rapids.

wojownik
February 9, 2011, 06:10 PM
I've used both the AR and M1 Garand in high power matches. I think you'll either start with the AR and then add a Garand to the toolbox, or vice versa.

Of the two, I enjoy shooting the Garand much more.

35 Whelen
February 9, 2011, 07:26 PM
I have a K31. Please tell me about the rear sight on the gun shown in the pics. Available?

Pete

Pete,
The sight pictured is a Lyman 48FN. It actually takes a little creativity to make it work as the sight was designed to be mounted on the right side of a receiver. A few months ago, I devised an even better and easier way to mount a better sight that being one of the Redfields; either an Olympic, International, or in the case of my rifle, a Palma.
It simply requires mounting a #46 Weaver scope base to the rear receiver ring. To this mount a Lipski sight base that is available from Brownells. Then it's simply a matter of mounting one of the sights mentioned. Here are some pictures of mine:

The scope base:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010087.jpg

The Lipski sight base:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010090.jpg

...and the sight:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010112.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010109.jpg

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have more questions.
35W

dzelenka
February 10, 2011, 12:05 PM
I don't think I could drill into one of my K31 receivers, but an aperture sight would really let that thing perform.

hvactech
February 18, 2011, 08:47 PM
my 2 cents worth is get a CMP and enjoy! When you are ready, look at a Fulton Armory.
Below is from their web site:

Fulton Armory M1 Garand Service Rifle (FFL Required)

Adopted in 1936, John Cantius Garand's Masterpiece, The US Rifle, Cal. .30, M1. A true American "Classic" that still serves with distinction after three-quarters of a century.

Winner of the www.Gun-Tests.com Shoot-Out

Standard Features

•Receiver: Original USGI
•Barrel: Fulton Armory .30-’06, 24" 1x10, GI Contour, National Match Quality
•Parts: GI & True Mil Spec Throughout, Forged Bolt & Op Rod
•Stock & Handguards: New Walnut, Hand Selected, Lovingly Fit, & Beautifully Finished With Linseed Oil
•Included Accessories: 8 Round Clip, Canvas Sling, & Owners Manual
•Fulton Armory Precision Guarantee: Under 2.5 MOA (With HornadyŽ Match™ Ammunition)

dzelenka
February 18, 2011, 11:13 PM
my 2 cents worth is get a CMP and enjoy! When you are ready, look at a Fulton Armory.
Below is from their web site:

Fulton Armory M1 Garand Service Rifle (FFL Required)

Adopted in 1936, John Cantius Garand's Masterpiece, The US Rifle, Cal. .30, M1. A true American "Classic" that still serves with distinction after three-quarters of a century.

Winner of the www.Gun-Tests.com Shoot-Out

Standard Features

•Receiver: Original USGI
•Barrel: Fulton Armory .30-’06, 24" 1x10, GI Contour, National Match Quality
•Parts: GI & True Mil Spec Throughout, Forged Bolt & Op Rod
•Stock & Handguards: New Walnut, Hand Selected, Lovingly Fit, & Beautifully Finished With Linseed Oil
•Included Accessories: 8 Round Clip, Canvas Sling, & Owners Manual
•Fulton Armory Precision Guarantee: Under 2.5 MOA (With HornadyŽ Match™ Ammunition)
The question posed by the original poster was: "I'm thinking about trying some NRA High Power. Would a mid grade CMP M1 do the job?"

Recommending a Fulton Armory M1 for someone to begin shooting highpower is really doing him a disservice. A guarantee of "under 2.5 MOA" is really inadequate. A sale price of $1,529.96 for what you get is pretty ridiculous. If you really want an M1, you could get a Correct Grade, which is essentially a new, original collectible rifle, and keep $400 in your pocket. If he wants a rifle for highpower competition, he could have White Oak build a Krieger barreled upper and pair it with a lower with a Geissele trigger for the price of the Fulton Armory and have a rifle capable of shooting 10 shot groups 1/5 the size of the M1. For around $900, he could buy a RRA NM AR that will shoot 10 shot groups below 3/4 MOA. Either of the ARs would be not only more accurate, but more shootable than an M1.

hvactech
February 19, 2011, 01:20 PM
I agree dzelenka, my first part of my statement ( suggestion ) is to get an economical CMP M1 and enjoy shooting.
When mtncreek is ready and after his new found experience and knowledge he can go from there.
mtncreek is looking for advice on spending his hard earned cash on a rifle for HP matches, Personnally I agree that buying a CMP rifle for this purpose is money well spent. As for my suggestion about Fulton that was strickly informational.
My main point for mtn is to go out and have some fun !

SupraBo
February 20, 2011, 10:39 AM
I would get an M1 shoot for the Grand match. thats about it. a AR is the best way to go for the money. the learning curve is better too.

700 for white oak upper and any lower will do with a two stage trigger..
with this combo the gun is capable of breaking records

dzelenka
February 20, 2011, 10:46 PM
CMP rifles are awesome and I own a bunch of them, but buying a CMP M1 to get into highpower competition is a waste of money. Why spend a minimum of $617 for a rifle that will not be competitive and will only leave the new shooter frustrated? You can spend another $300 for a RRA NM AR and have a rifle that is very competitive.

DJKnoop
February 24, 2011, 08:14 PM
Just to piggy back on the OP, thanks for all the info! I'm newly returned to comp shooting and had the same question.

One other thing, where the heck are these $900 RRA NM A2s?

Docmedic
February 25, 2011, 03:17 PM
Not sure of that either, I bought a "really slightly used" RRA NM A4 for just over $1000 last year, and I thought that was a steal

dzelenka
February 25, 2011, 03:52 PM
Just to piggy back on the OP, thanks for all the info! I'm newly returned to comp shooting and had the same question.

One other thing, where the heck are these $900 RRA NM A2s?
At Rock River. The last time I bought one (actually 4), dealer cost was $850. Most dealers will do a transfer for $25 or less. Just find a dealer who is willing to make the $25 and use his FFL to buy one at dealer cost.

Also, they sell them pretty cheap at Camp Perry during the National Matches.

Finally, if they charge more than that for a factory RRA NM, don't buy it. For $299 you can get a RRA NM complete lower and for $750 you can get a White Oak Armament upper with pinned sights. There is $150 greater value in the WOA set-up. Anything more than about $900 for a factory RRA NM is not getting your best value.

skidooman603
March 10, 2011, 12:32 PM
Yes $875 for RRA NM at Perry last year..35 W did I see you are shooting 6.7 gr of bullseye powder through that K-31? I take it that's with cast bullets??

35 Whelen
March 10, 2011, 06:59 PM
35 W did I see you are shooting 6.7 gr of bullseye powder through that K-31? I take it that's with cast bullets??

Yes and yes.
35W

DJKnoop
March 11, 2011, 06:56 AM
Yes $875 for RRA NM at Perry last year..35 W did I see you are shooting 6.7 gr of bullseye powder through that K-31? I take it that's with cast bullets??
Thank you for that heads up! I don't know that I'll be shooting Perry this year, but as its less than 2 hours away I was certainly looking to make a trip to gawk at the vendors. And at that price I can't afford not to get a decent rifle!

skidooman603
March 11, 2011, 11:21 AM
Good thing for me I don't live less than 2 hours from the North store. I would be more broke than I already am :)

P-32
March 11, 2011, 06:37 PM
When you are ready, look at a Fulton Armory.
Below is from their web site: Fulton Armory M1 Garand Service Rifle (FFL Required)

I am not going to say Fulton Armory does not build nice rifles because they do. The problem I have is they are very proud of their products. There are cheaper ways to go. If you want a good match tuned M-1, PM me and I will give you a gun plumers name and address.

For and AR what I would do is get a RRA NM lower and put either a WOA or WOP upper on it. The RRA NM AR's are fine rifles no doubt, but it's ahrd to beat a White Oak.

MtnCreek
March 11, 2011, 06:50 PM
For and AR what I would do is get a RRA NM lower and put either a WOA or WOP upper on it.

I'm going with an AR built. What's the difference between WOA and WOP?
Thanks.

P-32
March 11, 2011, 10:42 PM
A good question. WOA and WOP are divisions of each other if you will for White Oak. If I understand things right, RRA and WOA use the same barrels (Wilson) and both use the Wylde chamber which means it will shoot 223 or 5.56 well. The main difference is White Oak Arms and White Oak Precision offer pinned rear sights.The nice thing about pinned sights is they don't move around and wiggle like a normal A-2 sight will. White Oak Precision offers a better barrel and the owner, John does the work. WOP also uses a Wylde chamber which I really like.

I have two WOP uppers and could not be happier with them. I bought a RRA NM lower and then when my upper came in, pushed two pins and had a top shelf Match AR. The rifle shot well from the start. I made Master a few matches later. Then this upper has a lot of mileage so I ordered another WOP upper this time with a Kreiger barrel. Hoo boy. I never knew what the rave was about but this barrel makes no copper.

The first upper then got it's own lower, again a RRA NM. I use this rifle as a loaner, Shoots good enough still I can hook you or I use it for reduced matches and save the Kreiger upper for full a across the course matches.

Harvey/ Ga
March 20, 2011, 02:54 PM
A match grade upper for your AR lower would be the better way to go. Get at least a 1-8 twist barrel...1-7 is better. My old Colt HBAR, with 1-7 twist, match grade sights and trigger from Compass Engineering, Fla. has shot to 1000 yards with 80 grain bullets.

You're in W. Ga....I'd contact Compass lake and see how much he'd charge for a match grade upper and trigger job on your lower...41/2 lb. is standard for CMP matches.

I shoot at Riverbend gun club (rbgc.org) PM me and if you're reasonably close, I can let you shoot it.

bobsmith
March 25, 2011, 04:52 PM
I started shooting high power with an M-1 then went to a Winchester model 70. I was very competitive with other shooters who were shooting M1A's and AR's. I bought myself an AR and tried it for a while and didn't like the short sighting radius. I almost always shot the highest scores in our club at the reduced 600 yard slow fire stage (300 yards) with that model 70. It was put together by Master Class Stocks and loved 168 Sierra Match Kings in a Winchester case with 42.0 gr. of 4064 and a Rem 9 1/2 primer.

Realistically though, if your trying to get into high power, the most economical gun to start with would be a good AR. Make sure your gun shoots good then work up to it's potential. I've seen guys sell good guns when the problem was with the shooter, not the gun.

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