Press: "Gun shows have loopholes!" Really?


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rajb123
February 4, 2011, 06:56 PM
I don't understand this. So, if you do a transaction with a non-FFL at a gun show you are not required to file paperwork or do background checks? Is this the "loophole"? Is this all states?

...the last gun show I attended had a cop at the door; I think this was to check pistol permits but I'm not sure.

Thx...

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cambeul41
February 4, 2011, 07:13 PM
I don't know about all states, but basically you have it. As non-FFLs, we can't do the checks, so any closing of the "loophole" would prohibit private sales at the gun shows without going through (and paying) an FFL.

Michigan does still have paperwork that must be filed for pistol sales. This does not require an FFL.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ri-060_6454_7.pdf

henschman
February 4, 2011, 07:13 PM
yes, the government has not yet put a prior restraint on the right to bear arms when the transaction is between two individuals.

k4swb
February 4, 2011, 07:23 PM
I don't know about all states but in NC all firearm transfers must abide by all federal and state laws. A form 4473 is supposed to be filled out and retained by the seller and in the case of handguns a purchase permit must be obtained or the buyer can use their CCW permit and this info is retained by the seller. EVEN IF THEY ARE GIVING SOMEONE A GUN. This is almost never enforced. NC doesn't have a loophole, just unenforced laws.

Str8Shooter
February 4, 2011, 07:25 PM
In Colorado, no one can buy a firearm at a gun show without going through a background check:

12-26.1-101. Background checks at gun shows - penalty.

(1) Before a gun show vendor transfers or attempts to transfer a firearm at a gun show, he or she shall:

(a) require that a background check, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S., be conducted of the prospective transferee; and

(b) obtain approval of a transfer from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation after a background check has been requested by a licensed gun dealer, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S.

(2) A gun show promoter shall arrange for the services of one or more licensed gun dealers on the premises of the gun show to obtain the background checks required by this article.

(3) If any part of a firearm transaction takes place at a gun show, no firearm shall be transferred unless a background check has been obtained by a licensed gun dealer.

(4) Any person violating the provisions of this section commits a class 1 misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided in section 18-1.3-501, C.R.S.

armoredman
February 4, 2011, 07:26 PM
AZ says if you conduct a sale and violate the law, that's on you. So we have lots of private sales without government interferance, no issues.

TexasRifleman
February 4, 2011, 07:33 PM
Is this the "loophole"?

Yep, that's it. Following the law 100% is now considered a "loophole" apparently.

Joe in fla
February 4, 2011, 07:47 PM
Yep, that's it. Following the law 100% is now considered a "loophole" apparently.
You got it! + 1

ants
February 4, 2011, 07:50 PM
Following the law 100% is now considered a "loophole" apparently. Of course, TxRifleman is being facetious and cynical, and rightfully so.

There is no loophole.

The anti-gun community creates issues that don't exist, to lend support their aims. Because that's all they got. It's a constitutional right, not a granted privilege. So they have to make something up or they got nothing.

Just like the "collective right" concept (the interpretation that guns are only for the militia) they screamed for 40 years, until the Supreme Court blew that one away in DC v Heller.

oneounceload
February 4, 2011, 07:50 PM
Repeat the lie often enough and it becomes truth - THAT is what they are counting on - that and controlling what your children are taught - it is a battle that will take time, and they are prepared to take the time

liberty -r- death
February 4, 2011, 07:55 PM
Under Illinois law. . .

Any one selling or trading a firearm at a gun show or in the parking lot is required to have an FFL handle the transaction. (most FFL's will do this for a $12-$15 fee) Then the FFL then does sales paperwork, calls in a background check on the purchaser, and then holds the firearm for 24hrs on long guns or 72hrs on hand guns. This is Illinois' idea of closing the "loophole" federal law allows.

I can tell you that it makes private transactions very rare at gun shows. It's also makes it very difficult to make purchases if the gun show is not in the town you live in because of the waiting period. When it's all said a done what may be good deal often is not because of the hassle of the transfer laws Illinois imposes at gun shows.

Owen Sparks
February 4, 2011, 08:12 PM
Under Illinois law. . .

Any one selling or trading a firearm at a gun show or in the parking lot is required to have an FFL handle the transaction.

What about the parking lot across the street? It is really easy to arrange to meet somewhere off the premises. How about the McDonalds parking lot on the corner?

52grain
February 4, 2011, 10:30 PM
My understanding of the situation (I am no expert on gun laws):

If a dealer wants to sell a gun to a private individual, he has to run a NICS check, gun show or no.

In many places (local laws vary) it is perfectly legal for one private individual to sell a gun to another regardless of how they know each other (unless it's in prison or drug rehab :)) provided that the seller has no reason to believe that the purchaser is a prohibited individual. The government has not created a mechanism for private individuals to run a NICS check.

Calling it a "loophole" is very misleading and it upsets me that the news media calls it that without even realizing how wrong it is. If dealers did not have to run a NICS check at gun shows that would be a loophole. To me calling it the gun show loop hole means that things are somehow different at gun shows than they otherwise would be.

BleysAhrens
February 4, 2011, 10:44 PM
I have yet to hear the news report fairly on this matter, other than a short blurb after the video: "it is not necessary to have a back ground check in a sale between private citizens."

gc70
February 4, 2011, 10:57 PM
loophole: any restriction for which gun control advocates have not yet been able to pass a law.

stuckinsocal
February 4, 2011, 11:44 PM
Yep, that's it. Following the law 100% is now considered a "loophole" apparently.
Freedom is now considered a "loophole". And apparently many "pro gun" people agree, I've seen more and more supposedly pro gun people advocate for background checks for PPT sales.

WeedWacker
February 5, 2011, 05:42 AM
If I am wife beater and Ex con on parole for murder. I just go to local gun show and hand the private seller my drivers licenses. I walk out with a gun, no problem. So I don't see no loophole either. I love the Gun law as it is.

......... What?:scrutiny:

skipjack
February 5, 2011, 07:22 AM
In Maryland, all regulated firearm transfers (handguns and so
called assault rifles) are subject to a background check.

vaherder
February 5, 2011, 08:11 AM
When you sell a car are you required to verify that the individual purchasing your car has a valid DL and liability insurance?

Do I have to do a background check to sell fertilizer and diesel fuel to the farmer down the road? Should dealers be required to do background checks or sell to only US citizens?

You go to a chain saw show and purchase a chainsaw from a private individual then to drive to local shopping mall and go nuts killing and wounding dozens. Is there a loophole for private chainsaw sales? Do dealers need to do background checks?

You walk around a gun show with a sign on your back saying HK45 sale and you meet a prospective buyer. You both go offsite to complete the sale at a local Mcds parking lot. New laws mandating checks are stupid and worthless.

NRA needs to get out do a better job of counteracting Bloomberg and his communist storm troopers.

Va herder

bikemutt
February 5, 2011, 08:32 AM
Once they get done closing the gun show "loophole" then it's on to private party sales through the local classifieds, they won't stop at porch, they're coming inside.

On the seller side of the private party transfer, the problem as I see it is I can't run a NICS on the buyer, everyone pretty much has a driver's license, heck in WA we give one to anyone who asks, no questions asked. So I have no way to know if me selling it to someone is illegal because I should have known, or had reason to believe the buyer was prohibited. To CMA I ask to see a CPL, smaller buyer pool but at least I have some token of protection if things go bad down the road.

langenc
February 5, 2011, 08:58 AM
Michigan does still have paperwork that must be filed for pistol sales. copied from first few posts..

Yes MI has some paperwork--REGISTRATION. The reason we still have it is that it is so 'easily accepted'. Get hold of your state rep ands senator and TELL them we want to be rid of it.. Hitler loved gun registration...


Any one selling or trading a firearm at a gun show or in the parking lot is required to have an FFL handle the transaction. (most FFL's will do this for a $12-$15 fee) From post #11

$12-15-your ID dont say where you are from.. Most places it is twice (or more ) that figure or you have never done it..

alsaqr
February 5, 2011, 09:08 AM
Once they get done closing the gun show "loophole" then it's on to private party sales through the local classifieds, they won't stop at porch, they're coming inside.

Bingo!!! Dead on.

BTW: The US current senate bill is S.35. It was proposed by Frank Lautenberg of NJ. It has 11 co-sponsors: All are the usual suspects.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

Reference: In 2001 the Lieberman - McCain "gunshow loophole" bill was presented to the US senate. This was much more than a bill to close the so called gunshow "loophole". Thankfully it failed to pass.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/IP/gunshows2.htm

TexasRifleman
February 5, 2011, 09:18 AM
If I am wife beater and Ex con on parole for murder. I just go to local gun show and hand the private seller my drivers licenses. I walk out with a gun, no problem. So I don't see no loophole either. I love the Gun law as it is.

Actually according to crime records that's not where you would get your guns at all.

The anti's can keep telling that story, but it doesn't make it true.

In reality you will steal guns from your friends and neighbors or buy one from another criminal buddy of yours who stole it.

From Justice Department report on source of guns used in crime:

Off the street 39.2%
Friends or family 39.6%

The Department of Justice report also shows that guns sourced from gun shows account for 0.7% of guns used in crime. ZERO POINT SEVEN.

I've long argued that anti's should be allowed to post on THR but I believe they should be banned if they are dishonest. If their argument is so strong why do they have to make up stories to sell it?

ETA: I know Black Toe Knives is doing the "devil's advocate" thing. Just to make it clear, I am not calling him an anti, I am calling his "criminal argument" one since that is a commonly told story by the anti side.

TexasRifleman
February 5, 2011, 09:29 AM
Mr Rifleman if you say so.

I don't have to say so, the Department of Justice has said it.

I note that you post no rebuttal to their claims, and that's good. That means there really aren't any.

http://www.showmasters.us/Portals/0/pdf/Firearms%20Use%20by%20Offenders.pdf

I assume you are just playing the devil's advocate but you should be able to show some numbers to back it up if they existed. Whether you are a real anti or not doesn't matter, you have taken the anti position for your argument but that position is based on lies and provably so.

So, as is typical in these debates, once the facts are shown the person arguing on the side of the anti simply disappears. That happens a lot surprisingly. It's not a bad thing I guess. The real frustrating part is that so many anti's believe this stuff with such zeal that even when you show them the truth they refuse to believe it.

I'll debate the gun thing with anyone, anywhere but sadly most of them turn out to not be "debates" at all, once any facts are brought to the table the anti side just walks off claiming unfairness.

This whole "loophole" thing with the media is the same. You can show them facts til blue in the face, they simply don't want to believe it because then there is no story to chase.

TexasRifleman
February 5, 2011, 09:36 AM
Mr Rifleman, I am far from Anti-Gun.

Again, I thought it was pretty clear you were playing devil's advocate, I meant "you" as in the criminal you posed yourself as not "you" as Black Toe Knives.

My mistake if I didn't explain that well. Sorry.

Deanimator
February 5, 2011, 10:51 AM
The only "loophole" they care about is your being able to buy a firearm AT ALL.

liberty -r- death
February 5, 2011, 09:43 PM
What about the parking lot across the street? It is really easy to arrange to meet somewhere off the premises. How about the McDonalds parking lot on the corner?

My guess would be that you'd be found in violation of Illinois law and required to prove you innocence. It's just how Illinois rolls.

In Illinois if you are pulled over for a traffic violation and an officer sees your Illinois Firearms Owners Identification. (FOID) He can search your vehicle because you gave him "just cause". BS for sure, but it's a fact of life in Illinois as a gun owner.

nyresq
February 6, 2011, 04:43 AM
In NY they normally have Troopers patrolling around the gunshows, across the street, down the block etc looking for people doing deals outside the show. Everyone gets a NICS check and transfers through an FFL at any NY gunshow... State law to close the "loophole".

So even if both are legal, they must use an FFL. I saw the troopers driving down to patrol a mile away in the McDonalds parking lot on the way back to the interstate at the last show I went to. They were in an unmarked car and were just watching people in the lot at the show, then drove around the area to see any deals outside the show.

And yes, they have arrested people several times at past shows.

SpentCasing
February 7, 2011, 10:45 AM
In Ohio, the gov't has as much involvement with a gun transaction (private) as a floor lamp transaction, or a garage sale (read: none) Also if I sell you a pistol or rifle and you immediately go and commit a crime, Im immune from any trial (civil or criminal).

ETA: must be Ohio resident, and of age

Harley Quinn
February 7, 2011, 10:50 AM
You can't really believe that can you:confused: If that was the case then there would be no gunshows :) Not that hard to close down if really that is what they want...Then watch the fur fly :D Be like Egypt is now:what:

The only "loophole" they care about is your being able to buy a firearm AT ALL.

Carl N. Brown
February 7, 2011, 11:11 AM
So, if you do a transaction with a non-FFL at a gun show you are not required to file paperwork or do background checks? Is this the "loophole"? Is this all states?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer is someone thinks that putting private gun transactions back in the swap meet, bulletin board, trade newspaper, bar, parking lot at work, back row at the flea market, etc. is somehow a more controlled environment than a gun show.

I wish I as non-FFL had had the power to do background checks on some of my daughter's boyfriends when she was a teenager. ;) The gun show loop hole is about the fact that people with used guns to swap or trade cannot qualify for an FFL for occassional gun sales and thus cannot access the instant check system.

ADDED limit: most jurisdictions. The few jurisdiction that require all private transactions go through a FFL at a gunshow are different.

According to the DOJ NIJ felon survey most criminals acquire guns from other criminals who deal in contraband (stolen goods or drugs, fences, dealers, smugglers). According to ATF less than 2% of criminals acquire guns at gun shows. So the focus of crime prevention should be .... ¿patrolling gun shows and McDonalds? ¿¿¿¿????

Harley Quinn
February 7, 2011, 01:04 PM
Well seems like the legitimate gun dealers in the border states are the ones who are supplying all the drug cartel in Mexico:eek:

The last edition of NRA Mag was mentioning the wrong direction some are going with investigations and time wasted on law abiding FFL folks...:o

Regards

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