Is it legal to open carry spare magazines???


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Bullseye25
February 5, 2011, 03:16 PM
I live in FL where we have conceal carry but not open just yet. My question is, if I have a concealed weapon on me, is it legal to carry extra mag pouches on my belt openly? Or would that be considered a form of open carry or brandishing??

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AKPastor
February 5, 2011, 05:12 PM
Why open carry the magazine? You can avoid the situation entirely by staying concealed. The mag pouch will just announce that you are or may be carrying.

TexasRifleman
February 5, 2011, 05:36 PM
Every thread that asks a question about open carry ends up with debates on open carry itself.

Can anyone actually answer the question?

ChristopherG
February 5, 2011, 05:40 PM
Can anyone actually answer the question?

If this were my question, I wouldn't trust anybody to answer it OTHER than the office of the Prosecuting Attorney of the county in which I planned to do it.

Hanzo581
February 5, 2011, 05:43 PM
It was my understanding carry laws applied to firearms...magazines and ammunition are not firearms.

TexasRifleman
February 5, 2011, 05:43 PM
True but there might be a cite of it happening before, or some specific legislation. I've seen some state law that specifically mentions magazines or ammo carriers by name, but I don't know if Florida does or not. Can't remember now where I saw that... may have to search for it.

Hanzo581
February 5, 2011, 05:45 PM
Absolutely, I would check with my local authorities before doing anything.

dovedescending
February 5, 2011, 05:53 PM
Somebody with the knowhow research this and post an answer! I'm curious as well.

NavyLCDR
February 5, 2011, 06:11 PM
How about this.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/Chapter790/All

Nowhere in the entire chapter does the word magazine or clip appear. Local statutes are unenforceable due to preemption:

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—
(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void. This subsection shall not affect zoning ordinances which encompass firearms businesses along with other businesses. Zoning ordinances which are designed for the purpose of restricting or prohibiting the sale, purchase, transfer, or manufacture of firearms or ammunition as a method of regulating firearms or ammunition are in conflict with this subsection and are prohibited.

Thus, there is nothing in Florida state law causing the open carry of magazines to be prohibited, and local governments are prohibited from making their own statues.

Bullseye25
February 5, 2011, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the info. Is there anyone that actually does this? I'm very curious. I think it would be very convenient to make up for the mag capacity I lose with a smaller carry weapon to have spare mags right there on the belt without finding another place on my person to try and hide them.

Hanzo581
February 5, 2011, 06:53 PM
Open carrying mags is like carrying a sign that says "I have a gun on me". Personally I wouldn't do it.

General Geoff
February 5, 2011, 07:04 PM
Absolutely, I would check with my local authorities before doing anything.

The authorities (law enforcement in particular) are the last people you want to ask if something is legal. Study your state law, or an attorney if you are not confident in your ability to understand the law.

xcgates
February 5, 2011, 07:08 PM
I can't address the legal part of the question (besides it has been covered already), but how about using a case that looks like a blackberry, iphone, "icantlivewithoutmyelectronictether" case?

I doubt many people would think anything other than a phone when they see a belt-carried case, and if they did, would probably think something like a Leatherman before GUN!

Again, that does not address the legalities, but it does address the "look" you portray.

NavyLCDR
February 5, 2011, 07:13 PM
Open carrying mags is like carrying a sign that says "I have a gun on me". Personally I wouldn't do it.

Some people only concealed carry because they are required to by law, not because they want to.

Jeff F
February 5, 2011, 07:17 PM
I don't know about FL, I can't find anything in Nevada's NRS about Magazine's when you CCW. We have open as well as concealed carry here. I'm of the same mind as Hanzo581, if I'm carrying concealed why would I want an exposed magazine or speed loader on my belt saying got bullets, probably got a gun.

geekWithA.45
February 5, 2011, 07:48 PM
It's one of those things that will be left to "officer discretion". If push comes to shove, it's one of those "you'll beat the rap (in court), but not the ride (to jail)" moments.

Remember, folks, the process IS the punishment!

BleysAhrens
February 5, 2011, 07:55 PM
Put it in a Gerber pouch. I know my .40 P99 mags fit in one...

Blackbeard
February 5, 2011, 08:55 PM
Beats me

Bullseye25
February 5, 2011, 08:56 PM
I was thinking about mag pouches that fully enclose the mag, not really showing it. I think many would pass it off as a phone/leatherman/tool more than anything else.

I also intend to use for small single stack magazines 6/7 rounds for a p3at and pt 740. Probably easy to find mag pouches (or similar product) that will fully encase these. This would be much easier than stuffing mags in the pocket.

zorro45
February 5, 2011, 09:26 PM
go to Walmart, buy the clunky and very crude Winchester multitool, throw it away and use the pouch.

NavyLCDR
February 5, 2011, 09:35 PM
Here's your complimentary smack on the head for asking an "is it legal" question without posting what state you're in. Every state has its own carry laws. Unless you want us to guess, you should post your state.

<SMACK!>

Seriously?!? The FIRST 4 words in this post are:

I live in FL

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/8/13/128946872772778711.jpg

Owen Sparks
February 6, 2011, 02:00 AM
I once walked into a small country store with two 1911 magazines on my belt on the way home from an IDPA match. A deputy sherriff happened to be in the store and asked me what I was doing so I told him. I was wearing shorts and a T shirt and it was obvious that I did not have a pistol on me so he asked a few questions about IDPA and went on his way.

.zerocool.
February 6, 2011, 05:03 AM
All depends on your state, county etc rules. I know in the most strict state of California, you are generally allowed to carry an OC pistol with a loaded magazine in a pouch or whatever. It depends on the county your in, how educated the LE officers are on the local gun laws etc. Lots of times, something will be legal, but if a LE officer hasn't been briefed in depth, they can still seize your gun, only making a sh&t pile of work to legally get your gun back (and you'd lose the time you spend in jail with a "sorry we were wrong" statement afterwards.

This is something in reality you can't ask a forum for help, you need to as a local Judge or Attrny about the LOCAL laws. State laws doesn't mean squat when it comes to Local laws. They all vary. Just the same as federal laws differing from state laws.

And yes, the comment about not asking cops is correct. Don't do it, unless its an LE officer you know and trust. Many a times officers have to be briefed to be in the "know". Many times LE officers are so far out of the "know" it's not funny. Reason why if you get stopped by one, you don't start-a-blabbin and play by the rules. Don't give information they don't need. Don't try and educate them. Either you have paperwork on you showing the laws that exist locally/state wise, or you ask him to call an officer informed on the subject. Either way, having paperwork that shows your legally entitled to something is the key. I've mentioned california many times, and for good reason. Many things need to be done there in order to keep legal, and paperwork & law info is one of them. Best be prepared for those handcuffs either way and have as much info as possible. (To add : Including an attrny in your phone book / on speed dial)

I should also mention, an NRA membership IS A MUST. The NRA will provide a lawyer for you if you are being prosecuted for something that was/is legal, and sometimes even if it is a grey area.

mljdeckard
February 6, 2011, 05:17 AM
^^REALLY? Would you show the cases where the NRA has provided an attorney as part of membership? This is why they sell insurance in ADDITION to membership.

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 05:45 AM
Hire a lawyer and he'll tell you whatever you pay him to say... Check with the prosecuting attorney and he'll tell you to talk to an attorney about it... Even if the prosecuting attorney was to commit, it is just as likely that another prosecuting attorney will not... There are quite a few of them that are anti-2nd-Amendment... Back around 1993 or so, I had a conversation with one of the Assistant District Attorneys for Fort Bend County in Texas (Pedro Ruis). He said to me, "Well, I don't own a gun, so I don't see why anyone else should"... He was not someone that you wanted involved in your case if you were relying on Texas' "traveling defense" for carrying a handgun in a car... Didn't matter if you had spent the night and crossed 3 county lines or whatever... He would prosecute you so that he could up his conviction rate... You have to realize that sometimes you will get people like this in the DA office and you will have cops who have no knowledge of the law who think that only *they* should be the ones who should be armed. Even if carrying ammo openly in your state is legal, it might best be a case of "what they don't know, can't hurt *you*"... As far as I know, it is completely legal in Texas... On the other hand, if you are carrying a baseball bat in your car, you better have a baseball and glove with it if you don't want any trouble from an overzealous LEO or ADA...

swinokur
February 6, 2011, 08:15 AM
Several companies make IWB mag holders.


Comp-Tac and Tucker Gunleather come to mind.

Balrog
February 6, 2011, 09:05 AM
In certain states, even printing of the weapon can be considered brandishing a firearm. If I lived in one of those states, then I would consider open carrying magazines to be a form of brandishing, if I was on your jury.

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 12:01 PM
In certain states, even printing of the weapon can be considered brandishing a firearm. If I lived in one of those states, then I would consider open carrying magazines to be a form of brandishing, if I was on your jury.
Personally, I think that you would be wrong in this attitude. It is perfectly within the jury members' rights to disregard the laws of the state if it does not agree with them. The term for it is "jury nullification".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Just because something has been written as a "law" doesn't make it morally right (just as the reverse is also true). More juries need to do this in my opinion. Too many juries are just sheep who think that the cops and DAs are always right.

Balrog
February 6, 2011, 01:13 PM
Personally, I think that you would be wrong in this attitude. It is perfectly within the jury members' rights to disregard the laws of the state if it does not agree with them. The term for it is "jury nullification".


I don't see anything wrong with brandishing laws, if the state has them, so why would I want to nullify by jury?

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 01:57 PM
I don't see anything wrong with brandishing laws, if the state has them, so why would I want to nullify by jury?
OK... I understand which side of the "slippery slope" you're on... Never mind... Don't want to give the censors yet another chance to close a thread due to the discussion getting interesting...:(

Flintknapper
February 6, 2011, 03:59 PM
Balrog wrote:

In certain states, even printing of the weapon can be considered brandishing a firearm. If I lived in one of those states, then I would consider open carrying magazines to be a form of brandishing, if I was on your jury.

Please explain? I am interested to hear the rationale behind this.

A magazine is NOT the weapon itself. Even so....you seem willing to make the "jump" from a component part to an incident of brandishing.

If you did not plainly see the weapon ITSELF (or outline of it), then you are simply making a guess as to whether of not the person has one or not.

If I were to spot a "tattoo" on you, I wouldn't immediately assume you were a gang member.

Heck....as long as we're guessing, why stop at magazines. If someone's coat blew open just enough for you to see a thicker than normal belt, you might as well surmise it is a GUN BELT. And if the guy has a gun belt on....then he MUST have a gun (even though I can't see it and can't prove it).

I don't plan on ever having to go before a jury of my peers, but if I do....I pray there is no one on it making judgments based on their "Spidey senses".

Come on guys, unless the law in your State is written such that it specifically includes items other than the weapon itself, then stick to empirical evidence (actual sighting/printing of the gun).

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 04:24 PM
Back after 9/11 when they first started this mess that prevented us from being able to lock our checked bags (and thus making it easier for the TSA and baggage handlers to steal stuff from our luggage), I contacted the FAA concerning the requirement that firearms be declared since they did not explicitly state what constitutes a firearm. I contacted various people over a period of a few years and no one would go on record stating exactly how many gun parts constitutes a firearm for their definition. The reason that I did this was because that as long as I declared that my luggage had a firearm in it, I would be able to lock the bag. The FAA's regulations say that a firearm must be declared, but firearm parts are not required to be declared. So, the question that I had for them was: Exactly how many parts constitute a "firearm" by their definition? So, in order to be able to lock my luggage, I would put a pair of M1911 grips in my luggage in a small locked case, lock my bag, and then declare to the airline that it contained a firearm. You are not even allowed to have unlocked luggage if you have a firearm in it and you have to be present whenever they open said piece of luggage for inspection. I have to wonder though, how minimal of gun parts could I have gotten away with doing this... What about the screws that hold the grips to the frame of the M1911?

Balrog
February 6, 2011, 06:28 PM
If you did not plainly see the weapon ITSELF (or outline of it), then you are simply making a guess as to whether of not the person has one or not.

The point of brandishing laws is to keep people from intimidating others with the threat of deadly force. If you have magazines on your belt, I would assume you have a gun. I have never seen or even heard of anyone carrying magazines unless they had a gun for it.

So if someone with magazines exposed on their belt starts becoming agitated and belligerent, I think a reasonable person would conclude they are probably armed.

If they are armed, that would be brandishing in my opinion.

If they are not armed, well it would just be stupid.

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 06:47 PM
Where are you from Balrog? Perhaps that would explain where your point of view comes from... Here in Texas, the simple display of a firearm does not mean that you are brandishing it... One can legally walk down the street with a rifle or shotgun slung over your shoulder and it not be classified as "brandishing" it... Of course, in MY considered option, the concept of having laws that prohibit "brandishing" is a restriction on our 2nd Amendment rights and as such are totally unconstitutional... Firearms should be treated no different than any other tool with respect to this... A better law might be one against intimidation which could apply to any tool that could be used in an offensive manner... Intimidation by firearm should be covered by the same regulation that prohibits intimidation by baseball bat... Otherwise, we are treating firearms differently and that is what the leftists want us to do...

CollinLeon
February 6, 2011, 07:00 PM
According to this:

http://www.austin-criminal-lawyer.com/brandishing-a-weapon.aspx

"brandishing" a weapon is pointing it at someone...

Of course, that's assuming that you are actually willing to believe what a lawyer tells you... Personally, I'll take it with a grain of salt since if you want a different legal opinion on a matter, all you have to do is find another lawyer... Unfortunately, you don't get to choose the DA that prosecutes you... Hopefully, you won't get one that disregards the Constitution and wants to further his anti-2nd-Amendment goals...

Balrog
February 6, 2011, 08:04 PM
Where are you from Balrog? Perhaps that would explain where your point of view comes from... Here in Texas, the simple display of a firearm does not mean that you are brandishing it.

I am from Georgia. We have no brandishing laws here, and you can walk around with a gun and mags on your belt all day long, assuming you have a permit of course. My comments were made in reference to places with brandishing laws.

"brandishing" a weapon is pointing it at someone...


Some jurisdictions have a stricter definition. I believe some here have stated that in their states, even printing can be considered brandishing, though I don't recall what states they were from.

Flintknapper
February 6, 2011, 09:23 PM
Balrog wrote:

The point of brandishing laws is to keep people from intimidating others with the threat of deadly force.
Well....to Unlawfully do so, but yes....that is correct.


If you have magazines on your belt, I would assume you have a gun.
See, there ya go! Making assumptions/guesses instead of relying upon hard evidence. I fear you do not recognize the intellectual dishonesty of this?


I have never seen or even heard of anyone carrying magazines unless they had a gun for it.
I do it nearly everyday. Every time I go to the Post Office (because of law) I am forced to remove my weapon from my holster, leave it in my vehicle, then put it back in my holster when I return.

If I bent over and exposed my spare magazine while in the Post Office, a person of your same position might call the Police and have me detained. Of course, it would be quickly found that I was NOT in violation of any laws (in Texas), but you are willing to call this brandishing.

Even though NO WEAPON was present and there was no intent on my part to cause alarm. Wow!

So if someone with magazines exposed on their belt starts becoming agitated and belligerent, I think a reasonable person would conclude they are probably armed.
Huh? Are you suggesting that only ARMED people become "agitated/belligerent" or that maybe the weapon itself causes that effect? Are there laws in your State prohibiting a person from becoming upset/angry, I hope not.

Bottom line is this: You can be as docile, angry, calm or upset as you like (most places). What you can't do is ACTUALLY display/print a weapon, whats so hard about that?

If they are armed, that would be brandishing in my opinion.
Then I'd have to say...I am glad you are not writing the law.

If they are not armed, well it would just be stupid.
Then count me among the "stupid" every time I disarm (but do not remove my holster/mags).

I CC almost daily, very few places I go are posted/prohibited, but I don't take my Shoulder Rig off when I do encounter a place. Instead, I simply leave my weapon in my vehicle...then arm again later. If that is "stupid" to you...then so be it, but it is just one example of where your assumption would be wrong.

As I said before, anything short of actually seeing the weapon (or its outline), should not cause you alarm, let it go.

deadin
February 6, 2011, 09:38 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this whole thing is somehow related to CCW Badges, etc. (In other words, "What good is having a CCW if no one knows it?"):barf:

Balrog
February 6, 2011, 11:51 PM
See, there ya go! Making assumptions/guesses instead of relying upon hard evidence. I fear you do not recognize the intellectual dishonesty of this?

Have you ever heard of someone actually open carrying mags but no gun? What you are doing in the post office sounds like concealed carry of the magazines. I would be careful doing that, unless you want to argue with a federal judge as to whether or not a magazine and ammo qualifies as a weapon, especially if you have a gun in your car on the premises. You might get out of it ok, but who would want the hassel?


As I said before, anything short of actually seeing the weapon (or its outline), should not cause you alarm, let it go.


No, I don't have to see a gun. I guess you live in condition white until someone shows a gun?

Flintknapper
February 7, 2011, 12:06 AM
I give up, you have your mind made up to act on supposition, no amount of discussion is going to change that.

Remember to look up though, the sky is falling. ;)

Art Eatman
February 7, 2011, 12:41 AM
Way, way too much wandering...

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