308 Semi-automatic


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Davidfl
February 5, 2011, 07:22 PM
hi guys im new in i wanna no whats a good 308 Semi-automatic rifle help???

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lobo9er
February 5, 2011, 07:29 PM
So meny choices:) And everyone loves helping spend others money! If I were to be buying a semi-auto .308/7.62 rifle and had a decent budget it would be a DSA Fal of some sort. Fals have great rep, milled reciever, gas regulator is adjustable to run dirty or run with with a variety of ammo and mags are easy to come by right now. That would be my choice lots of options though. Its intended purpose and amount you want to spend would help narrow it down a little.

swiftak
February 5, 2011, 07:31 PM
M1a, BAR.

General Geoff
February 5, 2011, 07:35 PM
hi guys im new in i wanna no whats a good 308 Semi-automatic rifle help???

In the arena of .308 autoloading rifles, a better question would be, which ones to avoid? At the relatively expensive price point of most of them, lemons are few and far between. Just a few of the available platforms:

M14/M1A
FAL
HK-91/PTR-91
AR-10/LR-308

And there's also a new kid on the block, the Kel-Tec RFB. Prices can range from $800 up to $1500+. Or if you're on a string budget (which is comical given you want a .308 autoloader and you'll spend many times the cost of the rifle on any sizeable amount of ammo), you can look at a Saiga .308, which last I heard had a street price of ~$400 to $500.

1stmarine
February 5, 2011, 07:53 PM
You will get so many recommendations that you might go crazy.
There are many good ones and the good thing is you do not need to spend a lot of money to get some very good performance.

Think first what is going to be it's primary use. If for that purpose you need a special type of round and this might narrow the posibilities. Think about the rifle as if it was USPS and the bullet your package. First decide on what do you wan to do with those bullets and then decide about the best delivery method for that type of 'package'.

- The M1A is hard to beat but you pay for them. I have the SOCOMII and the Scout and they are superb. The SOCOM is heavy and bulky but it runs like a charm like all M1As.
- The FNAR is finicky with the loads. Mine is the 20" light barrel and only likes low grain and high grain bullets. Average loads do not do so well. It is also hard to take down and maintain but when you get the right load they are very accurate. It is based on the Browning BAR rilfes but "tacticalized". MAgs are expensive around $80 each.
- AR-10, DPMS, RRA are good systems. The light barrel ones are manageable but if you want more accuracy the start to get really heavy. Stay away from the 24" and 26" barrels. It is totally unnecessary.
- SAiga .308 in 16" barrel they are affordable and extremely accurate for the money.. I posted this link about one conversion I did... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005
I am getting same and better accuracy with this one than the M1A which is crazy for an AK type of rifle.
- All the surplus FAL, Cetme, G3s are ok for some people but they are heavy, not that accurate, and they are OLD designs. Maybe more for a collection type of interest although some people have retrofit them sometimes quite well to their needs.

Think first what you need it for and what you really want, then this might help you. Be honest to yourself. Sometimes I do 'compulsive buying' and then I end up not using some of the rifles that much. For me accuracy and reliability is the first thing I look for. For me more important than looks but other folks have other preferences like looks(wood), size, weight, etc...

Cheers,
E.

Davidfl
February 5, 2011, 10:26 PM
ty for the info guys;)

Dionysusigma
February 5, 2011, 10:31 PM
Best overall mix of accuracy, reliability, and price is the Saiga .308. Lacks the style of the M14 and the history of the FAL, but it's the one I'd go with to handle anything I'd use a semi .308 for.

W.E.G.
February 5, 2011, 10:35 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/JoeCoolFAL.gif

1stmarine
February 5, 2011, 10:42 PM
Hold on! snoopy has a FAL!! :eek: Take cover!!!!

lol

dawico
February 5, 2011, 11:12 PM
Scar 17s. Hasn't been out long enough for any long term testing, but everything I have read about them is excellent. FN makes some great guns, just ask our military.

lobo9er
February 6, 2011, 12:10 AM
......................

1stmarine
February 6, 2011, 01:40 AM
A DSA fal is NOT just a surplus rifle and to say it is is just plain ignorant. Nobody said that in this post.

Lets read the post again....

- All the surplus FAL, Cetme, G3s are ok for some people but they are heavy, not that accurate, and they are OLD designs. Maybe more for a collection type of interest although some people have retrofit them sometimes quite well to their needs.

DSA fal are supposed to be great rifles. The surplus ones are the ones to question so read carefully before you reply.

Also as I said before anyone makes any more recommendations it would be nice to know what the purpose is. Davidfl can provide that if he wants better advice.

Roughneck08
February 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
135767

135768

Easy! M1A Scout. Could not be happier with mine.

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
guys my range is $800 $1400

Roughneck08
February 6, 2011, 01:50 AM
There is an M1A on the trading section of this forum with an M1A standard for $1200. Claims it is unfired.

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 01:54 AM
ok;)

Roughneck08
February 6, 2011, 01:57 AM
Crud he sold it today, just checked. Sorry. Good luck on finding a rifle that suits your needs!

PCFlorida
February 6, 2011, 09:27 AM
I have a PTR-91 GI on order, should hit my LGS for the transfer this week. I should have bought an HK-91 back in the 80's when I wanted one, now they just cost too much $$. The PTR-91 GI is getting very good reviews on HKPro, some claiming to get 1.5 MOA with them. CDNN and Atlantic Firearms both have them for $899.

1stmarine
February 6, 2011, 10:21 AM
Davidfl,
What do you want the rifle for? target, hunting, home defense, etc...?
Weight is a factor, magazine options (preban, postban), etc...
I think this will help folks give you a better idea.

Cheers,
E.

birddog2
February 6, 2011, 11:19 AM
Nothing wrong with an old Rem 742? Mine will shoot under an inch with anything. Should be able to find one in the 300.00 range

lobo9er
February 6, 2011, 11:29 AM
re read the thread and edit 1st post. You were giving more ideas than just M1A, the saiga route is another option that should be explored as 1stmarine said.

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 12:45 PM
range in home defense guys but more for the range

jpwilly
February 6, 2011, 01:12 PM
DPMS LR-308 will fit your budget and is lighter than most of the choices listed at 8.5lbs without optic.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=16

-v-
February 6, 2011, 01:51 PM
I will say, I can't recommend the PTR-91 right now, because they have switched to making in-house bolts for them (versus using German surplus parts due to new export restrictions in Germany, IIRC), and there has been some reports of them cracking due to improper heat treatment. My recommendation, if you like the PTR-91, do some digging, and decide yourself.

Saiga .308 is a solid and accurate choice, some finishing and familiarity with a house-hold power-drill may be required to get it to its "proper" configuration. DPMS LR-308 seems to be the best bang for the buck as far as getting you into a ready-to-roll out of the box .308 platform. Be aware a 16" carbine versus a 22" rifle will shave off about 200-250 yards of range. That said, .308 from a 16" barrel will still be supersonic out to about 780-820 yards with factory loads, and perhaps 850 with handloads. You may also find accuracy better due to a stiffer barrel and better barrel harmonics from a 16" heavy-weight barrel.

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 01:52 PM
how much is the dpms panther lrt-sass

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 02:01 PM
but i want a 20"barrel at lease

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 02:11 PM
how much is the lwrc 308

jpwilly
February 6, 2011, 02:17 PM
The 18" barrel is plenty but if you need 20" You could have the original version LR-308

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/154049_Panther_Arms_Rifles_Shotguns_DPMS_RFLR-C_Panther-LR_30.aspx

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 02:34 PM
how accurate is the 18" it will by my first rifle

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 03:26 PM
dose anyone have a dpms Panther LR-308B

PCFlorida
February 6, 2011, 05:33 PM
I will say, I can't recommend the PTR-91 right now, because they have switched to making in-house bolts for them (versus using German surplus parts due to new export restrictions in Germany, IIRC), and there has been some reports of them cracking due to improper heat treatment. My recommendation, if you like the PTR-91, do some digging, and decide yourself.

Saiga .308 is a solid and accurate choice, some finishing and familiarity with a house-hold power-drill may be required to get it to its "proper" configuration. DPMS LR-308 seems to be the best bang for the buck as far as getting you into a ready-to-roll out of the box .308 platform. Be aware a 16" carbine versus a 22" rifle will shave off about 200-250 yards of range. That said, .308 from a 16" barrel will still be supersonic out to about 780-820 yards with factory loads, and perhaps 850 with handloads. You may also find accuracy better due to a stiffer barrel and better barrel harmonics from a 16" heavy-weight barrel.
PTR has said that a handful of bolts were shipped without proper heat treating. AFAIK there have been no other failures other than the 20 or so that they replaced.

CTW
February 6, 2011, 06:33 PM
This could be another nice option if you would like to try a FAL.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1DSAIMBEL&name=DSA+Imbel+FAL+.308+Rifle&groupid=11

Magnuumpwr
February 6, 2011, 08:35 PM
I don't have a DPMS LR308B, but I do have an LR-308 with the A-3 receiver, forward assist, dust cover, and 18" heavy profile barrel. When I purchased it I didn't want a really long barrel 20 - 24" nor did I want a 16" version, so 18" was chosen to get good velocity without all of the extra length and weight. Open sights or scoped it is a very accurate gun, getting 3/4" groups at 100 yds using Federal gold medal match 168 gr BTHP's. Shooting is done off of a bipod and shoulder, no bags from a shooting table.

1stmarine
February 6, 2011, 08:39 PM
Since I do not watch the NFL (National Felony League) I am here replying to some posts.

Based on my experience first hand and for the range and home defense I would go with the following options sorted by proven accuracy, reliability and versatility. Anything with 20" or above would become pretty cumbersome for any home defense and I would say, on average less accurate than the below. You give up a tad of speed but not much and not relevant unless you are going to do long range.

- Saiga .308 16" (cannot beat the price of this)
- M1A Socom
- Rock River Arms LAR-8 Mid lenght 16"

..the DPMS could be a great option too I just do not shoot them. For my use the advantage of the RRA is that it takes FAL metric magazines (including preban) that you can find cheap and some very good ones. (again for me)


They will be very accurate. Also great options for hunting. Will shoot well many military loads, including value packs of surplus (good quality surplus I mean) and due to their size and weight will do a great home defense. Keep in mind the .308 will go through easily through several walls so careful in a defense situation in an urban environment. Great in a farm.

Cheers,
E.

snakeman
February 6, 2011, 08:55 PM
m1a or dpms lr08

1stmarine
February 6, 2011, 09:16 PM
Davidfl,
Those are all great systems but before you discard the saiga take a look at this post I sent you (both the system and targets below) and that I started by request of a friend of mine...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005

I cannot make my Socom or the FN group like that. Close but not like it. In fact after shooting .308 round for more than 30 years, many in the military I was so surprised about the performance of the Saiga in 16" that I got 3 of the same added to my collection. I think that I am going to add a 4th.

If you want pictures of the FN or the others I can take them and share them if you want.

Cheers.
E.

srkavanagh6621
February 6, 2011, 09:21 PM
POF .308 I hear are some great shooters. Nice looking guns too I would give them a look.

lathedog
February 6, 2011, 09:22 PM
The DPMS 308 Sportical might be a good pick. It is a basic AR-ish rifle in 308 with no forward assist or ejection port cover. I really like the feel and it is a soft recoiling gun for a 308. Mags are well made and reasonably priced.

I always check price and availability for accessories, especially spare mags before I consider buying anything.

I think all the choices made in previous posts are good. The trick with many of them is to make sure you buy a good one. There are some dogs out there slapped together from surplus parts and US made receivers that can be good or can be stinkers. The quickest way to get burned is to be in a hurry and not do your homework.

The Saiga 308 comes highly recommended but I cannot comment as I have never owned one.

1stmarine
February 6, 2011, 09:48 PM
srkavanagh6621,
Yes!!! POF!! great systems, great piston!. but I think they are a bit over budget for the fellow member here. They run $2600 now?
Cheers,
E.

Davidfl
February 6, 2011, 11:31 PM
how is the reliability on the saiga 1stmarine

1stmarine
February 7, 2011, 12:06 AM
It is an AK system so reliability is its nick name. You pull the trigger, it fires and cycles. ALWAYS. Of course if you get a dud is not going to fire but that the round not the rifle.
I several and the .308 I have with 2K rounds w.o one single malfunction. That's amazing if you know a bit about auto loaders. Similar I can say of the M1A flawless too.
Very few systems battle proven can sustain that reliability rate.
Read about it. There is plenty of information in the books.

Davidfl
February 7, 2011, 12:10 AM
ty for the info

Davidfl
February 7, 2011, 12:12 AM
im going on youtube lol to see vids ;)

TexasPatriot.308
February 7, 2011, 12:13 AM
2 basic American, Armalite AR10 and M1A. after that so many new ones and foreign .308s out there. FALs, etc. proven over the years. I just like American made weapons.

henschman
February 7, 2011, 12:16 AM
M1A has the best sights, and is highly reliable, and is a manageable weight. Good triggers, also.

FAL is possibly the most reliable, with pretty good sights, but not superb accuracy (still good for hits on man-sized targets out to 600 or farther, though).

Saiga has the worst sights, but is the cheapest, and is also very reliable and is nice and lightweight. Mags are very expensive. The 21" barreled versions tend to be less accurate than the 16"s, but the trade-off on the short-barreled ones is a very large muzzle flash (that goes for any of the shorter-barreled .308s).

AR's are the most accurate, but tend to be the least reliable. They have good sights, and can be as light or as heavy as you could want, depending on what weight barrel you put on them. They are the easiest to mount optics on, and have good ergonomics.

The G-3 has OK sights, a bad trigger, and tends to be pretty accurate and has cheap mags.

The M-14 pattern rifles are my favorite, but I think I may build a .308 AR battle rifle to compare. If I find it has acceptable reliability, I may end up making an AR my go-to battle rifle... but not until it has proven itself against the M-14.

1stmarine
February 7, 2011, 10:39 AM
FAL is possibly the most reliable

AK based systems are the most reliable system in the planet. In dusty conditions the FAL stops working. Ask any veteran in the Israeli army.
M1A are also far superior to the FAL and more accurate. These are all well
documented facts and not my personal opinion.

Cheers,
E.

PandaBearBG
February 7, 2011, 10:58 AM
M1A gets my vote, sexy, timeless, accurate, and the perfect in design and functionality.

CTW
February 7, 2011, 11:23 AM
I dont see how the M1A is more reliable than a FAL. I am not saying it is not a great weapon, but the FAL was issued to more than 90 countrys and that speaks for itself. Include the fact that todays M1A's are commercial guns and not milspec and I find no basis for that claim. Most FALS are built on milspec parts. You can take a FAL and swap parts in a pinch and be up and running again. Lets see that happen with an M1A. You will also be paying 40-50 bucks a pop for the M1A magazines versus 15-20 for the FAL. I have Fals that will shoot into 2"-2 1/2" at 100 all day. You could always get a nice 18" barreled Fal. Just my 2 cents.

Davidfl
February 7, 2011, 03:59 PM
just asking is a 308 Semi-automatic good for hunting

courtgreene
February 7, 2011, 04:30 PM
yes. a .308 is a .308. semi or not, if you put it where it needs to go, it works. (placement and bullet selection are much more important than action type)

ETA - I assume you meant DEER hunting.

lobo9er
February 7, 2011, 05:22 PM
http://i27.tinypic.com/6ir2qc.jpg
heres a nice pic of rifles i found some of which are being talked about here

1stmarine
February 7, 2011, 08:14 PM
Include the fact that todays M1A's are commercial guns and not milspec and I find no basis for that claim.
The M1A is made by the Springfield Armory. They are made with the same quality process as always. I don't see many of them or heard any reports of anyone with one out of spec so I don't know what your comment really means unless some armorer or gunsmith wannabe worked on one and screwed the carbine up.
The M1A is derived from the M14. Springfield Armory delivered the first M14 service rifles to the US Army in 1959. It served really well in Vietnam although it was big for MBR it became obvious its reliability. You can drag it though the mud and piss it clean and keep shooting, just like the AK. The M14 was phased out as standard issue by 1970 but it is still used today by many branches of the Military, and the preferred choice over anything else as Sniper and DMR. It has great effectiveness at long range. It is the preferred choice by many marines in Afghanistan over anything else.
You will not see any US or coalition forces sticking to the old FALs. They are not accurate and have a hard time with dust. Any old veteran from the Israeli army will tell you this.

just asking is a 308 Semi-automatic good for hunting
What you want is something accurate whatever that might be so if you are presented with a 600yards "opportunity of a lifetime" do not end up shooting it in the rear.
Again the Saiga 16" is extremely accurate, not the 21" that one is not.
Baseline is $550-$575. Mags are $37. I would say buy 3 or 4 for now. A nice 922r compliance conversion with the nice G2 trigger will cost you $180 more or less depending on options. This carbine is below MOA.

M1A is also a great. You will pay for a SOCOMI around 1,400-1,500 and the SOCOMII for around 1,800. Mags are plentiful and you can get good ones for $20 and even cheaper surplus.

Both systems need additional good mounts for regular optics if you want a scope. If you want to enjoy the range and a good hunt plan for a good scope. The M1A iron sights are superior to the AK but the AK can do ok too.

Here one Saiga .308 before and after conversion....

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/30%20cal%20bullets/100_5955.jpg

Here one target. Here with a 1x7 Burris timberline with the simple yet awesome bullet drop comp with a few clicks between groups. LEt me know if you need more pics of this or FN, M1A or other systems...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/Boltinator/Scan0007.jpg

Added this with a few shots open sights too....
These were shot standing up with that grip-bipod supporting over a counter but w/o any sandbags or anything fancy.
I am retired now but I was trained as a marksman and sniper and take my time between shots but other than that there is nothing really huge and fancy about this system setup.
It is just plain and simple an accurate system so potentially anyone can do this with this nice carbine.

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/Boltinator/Scan0006.jpg

Cheers,
E.

Davidfl
February 7, 2011, 08:20 PM
how much did it cost you for the 1 in the niddle

1stmarine

Davidfl
February 7, 2011, 08:23 PM
37 for 20Rounds mags

1stmarine
February 7, 2011, 09:09 PM
The have 25 and 10 rounders. Surefire are great mags. Stay away for the originals as they are not cheaper and they do not count as a compliance part.
Once you add something to a original russian like the saigas you have to make sure it is 922r compliant. So you need to change a few things.
A few options are a USmade trigger group (Awesome improvement and needed anyway) the stock and handguards. (I keep the stock AR style), brake, magazines US made by surefire are awesome and they count as 3 compliance parts. You only need 5 compliance parts but not a bad idea to have a few more anyway.
The internals, cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels, trunion, bolt, piston, receiver that stays untouched as delivered by the russian AK plan in IZmash and with the same quality (mill spec) of all the other AK systems they provide to the military forces. Normally AKs are not that accurate but this .308 'shorty' was a pleasant surprise on this regard.
Specially for that kind of moola.

Cheers,
E.

henschman
February 7, 2011, 10:00 PM
The Springfield Armory, Inc. (SAI) that makes the M1A is not the same company as the Springfield Armory that was the old GI weapons manufacturer. SAI just bought the name. The M1A uses a cast receiver, while the M-14 had a forged receiver. Early M1As were built with all USGI parts, but now they are all built with SAI's in-house parts, including the barrels, which are not chrome lined as per mil spec. Some receivers out of spec, which sometimes causes problems with scope mounting. SAI extractors sometimes cause problems too, and are frequently replaced with GI, especially on scoped rifles (sometimes the SAI extractor makes the brass hit the mount, especially on a low mount).

This doesn't mean they are bad rifles. On the contrary... I love mine. It is a lot of fun to shoot, and is quite accurate. Mine has been nothing but reliable. I do wish it had a CL barrel, though... I will probably end up replacing it soon. Even though they are not mil-spec, SAI's are still what I would consider a mid/high grade rifle. There really isn't any such thing as a low-end M-14, like there are with AR's... even the Chinese ones are pretty solid. And the upper end ones, like 7.62mm Firearms, SEI, Fulton, and LRB are the definition of quality, and are all mil spec.

As for the FAL not being reliable, have you ever heard of the legend of Ol' Dirty? That is a fal over on falfiles.com that has fired over 15,000 rounds without any cleaning and is still going strong. I have never heard of an M1A or Saiga that has pulled anything like that off. With a FAL, if it becomes so fouled that it is starting to FTE, you can turn up the gas port pressure and it will keep running. It is a rugged gas piston operated rifle, just like the M1A. It actually has a really great reputation for reliability in all conditions from those who have used them. The Rhodesians swore by them in the Bush War.

Granted there are probably AK's in Africa that would put that thing to shame, but I don't know if I'm ready to ascribe that level of reliability to the .308 Saigas. I know they are made in Russia on the same equipment used to make military rifles, but they are chambered for a different (non-tapered) case with the NATO round for the .308 ones, among other changes. I have owned one and no doubt they are very reliable, but I'm not ready to say that they are more reliable than a FAL. A 7.62x39 one? Yeah, sure. A .308? I require more proof.

Oh well, we are probably nitpicking... pretty much all of the gas piston (or delayed blowback) operated 7.62mm battle rifles are going to be extremely reliable. Head and shoulders over a direct impingement rifle like an AR. And that says something about those battle rifles, because even the AR design is considered reliable enough to be our military's main service rifle!

CTW
February 7, 2011, 10:07 PM
Those saiga .308s are impressive for the value versus what you get. I just dont agree that FAL's are as inaccurate as you claim. I shot this at 100 yards with my Imbel build and paki POF surplus hardly tack driving ammo. It does better with my V-Max reloads. The shoot and see was a full 20 round mag of prvi M80 at 100 yards with my Brit
L1A1 and iron sights. The first 15 rounds went into 2 and a half inches. The group opened up after the barrel got hot. I have not tried a scope, but my feeling is I could tighten those groups if I did.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/FALTarget004.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/faltarget.jpg

1stmarine
February 7, 2011, 11:17 PM
OK guys. I didn't mean to offend anyone who owns and FAL or anything like that. I know about the DSAs and there are FAL systems that have been accurized and come with great barrels, great finishing and awesome triggers and obviously do WAY better than the average FAL.
I would stay away from surplus century stuff same way I stay away from Romanian surplus century junkyard systems.

I am aware about the Springfield Armory history but as far as I know the M1A cashes on the popularity of the M14 type by using GI parts and original specs and never found any evidence that while the cast receiver is not as robust it is of any concern as a one single point of failure as there is no recorded data about any failures with this. But I agree these are not the same systems we get in Afghanistan in those M14 crates. Obviously those are actual M14s to start with. I think that the M1A is pretty well made and with a bit preventive maintenance and w/o the need to go to the Fulton armory everyone is pretty happy with them and the reliability. The mills and materials are superb but you always have the option to go to the Fulton armory if you want. If it is just for one of those fancy stocks I would do it myself. It is really simple.

Also the L1A1 shorty is pretty good same way the socom comes pretty accurate and the saiga 16" is way more accurate than the 21".
The rule is that all things being equal more often than not the shorties give up a tad of speed but they show better grouping plus the added portability.

But please! saying that the SAIGA 308 has to be problem tested come on! It is extremely popular the Ukraine, Siberia and many remote regions with a great reputation to hunt anything from pigs(VEPR), bears in extreme conditions from 50 below degrees through rain, mud, ice, you call it. It is almost the same as the VEPR with a few differences in the slant receiver, stock type and metal but essentially the same carbines, one made in the MOLOT plant and the other in IZMASH. Read about it. Books talk about this to perform with the same degree of reliability as the old AK47 but with a .308 round and way more accurate. Our average ammo is far superior to the russian steel, their engineers also discovered this and have acknowledged that as contributing factor to the accuracy of these systems too.

http://robarm.com/M96_Home.htm

...by the way the targets above are with Surplus Ammo DAG NATO 150 grainers. nothing fancy.

Cheers,
E.

Davidfl
February 9, 2011, 02:26 AM
ok ty for the info

1stmarine
February 9, 2011, 09:47 PM
So Davidfl,
Did you make your mind?

Davidfl
February 9, 2011, 10:25 PM
maybe the saiga 308

1stmarine
February 9, 2011, 11:07 PM
Whatever you choose many folks here will give you advice. Hopefully w/o driving you crazy! lol

Davidfl
February 10, 2011, 01:51 PM
lmao ty im going to get the saiga 308

Wolfgang2000
February 10, 2011, 03:17 PM
First the 308 is a great round. I hunt with it regularly, and it has never failed me IF I DO MY PART.

I had one of the original Springfield M1As, (Made in TX), bought in 77. It was a great rifle very accurate, great trigger. But it was a full size rifle and very unwieldy in the woods and veh.

In 2003 I bought an Enterprise FAL carbine. I like this rifle. The 16" bbl makes it very handy. This rifle has been nothing but reliable. The trigger isn't as good as the M1A but it's good enough, as is the accuracy.

The only rifle I would trade if for is the Kel-Tec RFB.

I have 2 sporting rifles in 308. Both are Brownings, 1 a BLR, the other a BAR. The BAR has had the stock cut to fit my wife, the BLR is my go to hunter.

There are so many 308s to choose from it's hard to say what is best for YOU. You need to start putting some to you shoulder, and even pulling the trigger on a few to find out what YOU like.

1st Marine, GREAT Sagia!! You have my gun lust in full rage. A bad thing for a old retiree on a fixed income. :eek:;):D:D

General Disarray
February 10, 2011, 04:09 PM
I can't believe nobody had mentioned what an absurd trigger comes on a Saiga. How has nobody mentioned this? That trigger is total joke, and has to be replaced. Davefl, in 1stmarine's picture the top one is right out of the box, while the middle one has been through a full conversion with trigger moved forward and a pistol grip installed. Notice the difference between the two trigger? I'd suggest you do yourself a favor and hold one of these before you order one online.

OMG, that friggin trigger is ridiculous. I have one, and did the conversion, and now that I have it's a fantastic platform. BBBBUUUUTTTT, out of the box those things are a joke. The plastic "sporter" stock it comes with feels like a toy. And the Tapco furniture is not a solution because the trigger isn't made to be used for a pistol grip, but for a sporter stock. The trigger pulls UP, not back. You have to do a conversion, and while it's not rocket science, it's by no means "no big deal". Its a project, and I'm glad I got through it cuz now I love mine. But I hated it at first, so there's a biggggg part of the equation going unmentioned here in all this Saiga .308 praise. That being said, they are pretty awesome once converted.

M1key
February 10, 2011, 04:27 PM
New Saiga .308 ~$500

pistol grip conversion ~$300

Spend the rest of your budget on mags and ammo.


My wife can hit the 500 yard gong with a bone-stock Saiga 21-inch, open sights, and Silver Bear SP ammo..."absurd" trigger and all.

YMMV

:cool:

1stmarine
February 10, 2011, 08:39 PM
General Disarray,
You are right!!! the trigger is a joke as in their attempt to 'sporterize' the AK the trigger is connected with a long arm and instead of pulling it feels more like lifting. You can actually use it but with a US made tapco G2 trigger for $25 the improvement is 200%. The good thing about the trigger being like that, like in the saiga shotguns, is that the conversion is even easier. There are no back pins to drill out. Simply remove the trigger plate at the bottom, put a tapco or other AK grip and presto! the trigger counts for 3 922r compliance parts which is great as it is also a huge improvement. A US made surefire magazine will give you 3 parts too so you do not need to do anything else but after you move the trigger you need the grip and the stock otherwise it will look like an abomination.

You can actually get the entire thing compliant for around $180 depending of options you want and how fancy you want it.

Read this post.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005

Cheers,
E.

General Disarray
February 11, 2011, 01:14 AM
My Saiga was $500, my K-var 2stage match trigger was $40, and the Surefire mag was $42. Then I bought a regular old used AK buttstock and pistol grip for $25.

Cryogaijin
February 11, 2011, 01:52 AM
Gotta say that I agree with the complaints about the saiga .308 trigger. However I dropped a Dinzag trigger group in it. . . and best trigger of any of my firearms.

General Disarray
February 11, 2011, 04:21 AM
Gotta say that I agree with the complaints about the saiga .308 trigger. However I dropped a Dinzag trigger group in it. . . and best trigger of any of my firearms.
Dinzag makes all the parts you need to do a nice conversion. I picked up some of those tabs they offer to cover the screw tops for the new screws in the new trigger guard and they made such a difference in the fit and finish.

Something I meant comment on came up in the OP which was Dave mentioned that he wanted this for home defense as well as range use, etc. Others may disagree, but .308 is not exactly a "home defense" solution. Ever see the ballistics and penetration stats of this caliber? There's a reason its used for Battle Rifle platforms; it annihilates protective cover like concrete and cinderblocks, etc. Sheetrock and manufactured walls don't stop .308; my point is while this does do a good job at stopping bad guys, walls don't do a good job at stopping this round so your neighbors are actually in harms way. For a reliable home defense weapon that's cheap and effective it's hard to beat a simple $200 Mossberg Pursuader. It's a 12ga shotgun with a 18" barrel and an 8 round mag.

1stmarine
February 11, 2011, 09:03 PM
I have been using the tapco G2 trigger single hook and it is coming out real crispy and predictable. Great for a tactical use if thats what you want.

Also I agree with the above. Very wise advice. Folks getting a .308 for home defense should be aware this round has some extreme penetration. Definitely less than ideal for an urban or apartment / building environment. I think ideal for a suburban area with plenty of 'room' or farm/ranch type of scenario.

Also look into some tactical rounds for home defense as you have some options with frangible bullets that are designed to kill but to disintegrate with hard targets.
Also be aware of muzzle direction even in a emergency/defensive situation. train for this as when the time comes you will not be thinking and this has to be done instinctively. Just like swat squads at both sides of a vehicle control stop going bad do know where they are supposed to stand and when to shoot so they do not end up shooting each other by rounds going through the targets.

Cheers,
E.

Davidfl
February 12, 2011, 12:08 AM
guys its for the range/ maybe hunting

Davidfl
February 12, 2011, 12:09 AM
its more for the range

mshootnit
February 12, 2011, 12:21 AM
I really like my Saiga 308 and M1a rifles. I shot a deer with a Vepr 308 that I had converted to sidefolding configuration too. I told my friend that my Vepr was a better rifle than his AR-10. Very condescendingly he said "thats your opinion" inferring clearly that I was full of crap with that Russian gun. He didn't realize that I was showing him was basically the heart and soul of an RPK machine gun, vs. his aluminum Armalite sporter. In terms of reliability, that Vepr will shoot that Armalite into the ground.

Davidfl
February 12, 2011, 03:37 AM
whats better guys a bolt action or Semi-automatic i no its off topic sorry guys asking so much its my first rifle im going crazy in im make yous go crazy sorry

CobraGT
February 12, 2011, 03:47 AM
We don't have as many choices here north of the border - we can't have FALs, G3's or AK-based systems, for example, but M14s are cheap, so a lot of guys have those and love 'em. I just got my RFB, though, and would HIGHLY recommend it - I've been really happy with it so far, although sourcing mags here has been a bit of an issue :cuss: (being stuck with one 5-rounder sucks, not to mention that it looks goofy!)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c281/cobragt/MilletDMS-11-4x24001.jpg

Monkey_King
February 12, 2011, 09:39 AM
General Disarray,
You are right!!! the trigger is a joke as in their attempt to 'sporterize' the AK the trigger is connected with a long arm and instead of pulling it feels more like lifting. You can actually use it but with a US made tapco G2 trigger for $25 the improvement is 200%. The good thing about the trigger being like that, like in the saiga shotguns, is that the conversion is even easier. There are no back pins to drill out. Simply remove the trigger plate at the bottom, put a tapco or other AK grip and presto! the trigger counts for 3 922r compliance parts which is great as it is also a huge improvement. A US made surefire magazine will give you 3 parts too so you do not need to do anything else but after you move the trigger you need the grip and the stock otherwise it will look like an abomination.

You can actually get the entire thing compliant for around $180 depending of options you want and how fancy you want it.

Read this post.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005

Cheers,
E.
1stMarine, I have been saving my pennies for a M1A squad scout. However, after reading so many talk about the Fals, Cetmes, etc. being just as good for less money I was cruising forums to learn as much as possible before making a buy. I know I still want a M1A someday, but you may have talked me into a Saiga. I have read several owners say they had trouble getting sub MOA groups from out of the box M1A scouts. I can't see paying twice as much for groups twice as big. I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread because I'm in the same boat and this was all great info.

sturmgewehr
February 12, 2011, 11:18 AM
I currently own, or have owned most of the popular .308 rifles. FAL's, HK91's, M1A's, AR10, etc.

This rifle by far tops them all. It's the most modern, well thought out and nicest shooting .308 semi-auto I've ever owned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0lwxHUiTcw

Now it's just a matter of me locating another one so I can have two. :)

sturmgewehr
February 12, 2011, 11:19 AM
CobraGT, you have a Tavor and I've wanted one of those for years! We keep hearing rumors that X company is going to make them here in the States and it never comes to fruition. I wish I could lay my hands on one, just because it's new (to me).

That Kel-Tec looks very cool. When they are a little more available around here (people are buying them as fast as they're making them) I plan on picking one up and testing it out.

M1key
February 12, 2011, 11:46 AM
whats better guys a bolt action or Semi-automatic i no its off topic sorry guys asking so much its my first rifle im going crazy in im make yous go crazy sorry
You need to decide the rifle's main role...

For range work? A good bolt rifle is hard to beat. Within your price range, more accurate, much easier to mount a scope, better trigger, negates the need for mags, etc.

M

Motega
February 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
DSA SA58. I just did the research over the past month- cruising message boards, talking to various gunsmiths, etc. Save a couple hundred bucks more and get one... in the meantime start saving for ammo too because each round is going to cost you at least $1 unless buying in bulk and then it's still .50 a round. That's for good stuff.

Anyway, the reputation of both DSA and the FAL in general is excellent. If you read about bad DSA stuff you are either reading about a recall they had once or pieced together stuff or something other than brand new.

The FAL is accurate out to 300 yards easily. Some farther than that. In my opinion if you want MOA accuracy past 500 yards a bolt action is the way to go.

What do you want this rifle for? If it's one of those "end of the world" scenarios it makes extra sense to go with a FAL since 90+ countries use or have used them. Lots of parts and ammo will be around for a long time.

There is a lot of merit in a bolt action if it is going to be to develop your skills as a rifleman or even for general purpose stuff. The chances of actually needing a battle rifle are so ridiculously small though many people, for whatever reason, like to think they are being "prepared" by buying an assault weapon. Truth be told, I'm willing to bet if it came down to it you would have exactly the same chances of surviving with a .22 as with a .308 because it would have lots more to do with dumb luck and knowing basic survival skills like getting clean water and building a fire than it would to be fending off some imagined army with your weapon.

1stmarine
February 13, 2011, 01:03 AM
I have read several owners say they had trouble getting sub MOA groups from out of the box M1A scouts. I can't see paying twice as much for groups twice as big. I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread because I'm in the same boat and this was all great info.
The M1A scouts and Socom are great systems. People that complain about them should look into other factors as they should be getting pretty good accuracy but one thing is true, I am not getting better groups out of them than the converted saiga 16". 100% Reliability, simplicity and dead accurate? I am not buying more .308's I have plenty of them now but if I had to do it all over again and I knew as much as I know now I would start with the little dandy carbines from Russia.
The targets that I posted I have many more. Very few carbines can print groups like that but obviously many bolt rifles.
Cheers,
E.

deepee99
February 13, 2011, 09:08 AM
Davidfl, if you go with a semi-auto you're going to eventually find yourself reloading -- unless you're very wealthy, of course. One thing not mentioned in this thread is that while the HK-91 is a superb, albeit heavy, rifle, HKs are murder on brass. If you're just shooting Berdan-primed surplus NATO ammo this is not an issue, but otherwise, it's a consideration. I have a SOCOM II and it returns reloadable brass in a very nice group (not to mention the bullet groups are superb, too.

Motega
February 13, 2011, 09:56 AM
One last thing... a .308 semi-auto for "home defense":uhoh:? Unless by "home" you mean the acres surrounding your house I'd say a rifle is a very, very poor choice for this purpose. Assuming the worst, you are going to have to account for every round fired in front of a jury, you run the risk of collateral damage to the other inhabitants of your home (and neighborhood), not to mention an extraordinary amount of property damage, the risk of fire/explosion should you happen to clip a propane tank or gas line, and something rather awkward to wield compared to a short barreled shotgun or handgun.

Given the choice of only 1 weapon it'd be a shotgun for sure. Most versatility as far as targets/hunting/defense, and they are inexpensive to purchase and shoot.

d2wing
February 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
FNH SCAR? I would like to know more about them. Price?
Never mind, I looked them up, not available, Cost about 2700 and up, not any lighter or more accurate then an AR10, for more than twice the money. They look they might good but I'll never know.

Motega
February 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
The advantage of the SCAR isn't accuracy or light but a custom fit for our troops without custom fitting every soldier. The buttstock has an adjustable pull AND an adjustable cheekpiece, it folds, and it has all the various rails, attachment points, a rugged folding sight, and SUPER LIGHT RECOIL. Supposedly lighter than anything else by a wide margin.Additionally they are extraordinarily easy to field strip- you can get one apart, cleaned, and back together in 2 mins.
I don't think that any of those features make a difference for anything but a large group of trained warriors acting in harmony. Acting alone or with a few friends in the usual "end of world" scenario, you aren't even going to have 2 mins to change a barrel if you are in a firefight while your neighbor lays down suppression fire.
Not everything good for our military makes sense for civilians and vice-versa.

1stmarine
February 13, 2011, 07:38 PM
Jeff56,
Some semiautos are very close in accuracy to bolt rifles. Some even better to many bolt actions although never close to the best hunting/sniper/tactical systems but always with the capability to take very quick follow up shots.
The saiga I posted before is around 8.5 pounds after conversion. Something pretty manageable specially in 16".
Regarding the .308 win. rounds I would initially agree with you and this is a lot of round for any sort of CQ situation if you are intending to simply use hunting or mil spec ammo. Any bullet in any caliber has a liability associated with it regardless the cartridge or system is fired from and the .308 is pretty risky as it has lots of energy and penetration but, you will be surprised how popular this has become specially with the use of special purpose frangible ammunition.
http://www.extremeshockammo.net/tactical.asp

Cheers,
E.

Motega
February 13, 2011, 09:39 PM
Frangible or not, .308 is going through walls... even the 9mm stuff goes through the walls, albeit in pieces.
Secondly, you better kill whoever you shoot with that stuff because the sufferings a survivor would endure would probably plead like angels trumpet-tongued in the criminal and/or civil case brought against you...

1stmarine
February 14, 2011, 12:04 AM
Motega,
We are going a little bit of topic here but a lot of folks know the .308 is the way to go for almost everything you need.

[Frangible or not, .308 is going through walls... even the 9mm stuff goes through the walls, albeit in pieces.

Frangible will not go through cement, cinder block, brick or metal. It is designed to pulverize with hard targets.

Secondly, you better kill whoever you shoot with that stuff because the sufferings a survivor would endure would probably plead like angels trumpet-tongued in the criminal and/or civil case brought against you...

In a CQ configuration these bullets ensure maximum energy retention w/o exit would in many cases. A problem with FMJs/SP/HP in closer quearters is overpenetration w/o expansion and then the possible liabilities. The new CQ bullets in the same case take care of both, increase lethality at close range and reduce liability. Tactics require less shots as the shots are considered extremely lethal. One center-mass shot means thread is over. Normally collapsing by hydrostatic shock. The bullet explodes not even 1 inch inside the soft targets. Same principal as the varmint grenades but bigger.

That is the idea behind the lwrc SABR system by specific request from the US special forces to be used in urban environment w/o changing calibers between that and support, suppressing or sniping roles.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/products/lwrcs-sabr/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_McIBT3ZKpw

Whether one likes it or not that's the way it is.

Motega
February 14, 2011, 12:41 PM
We're not all trained warriors - and spraying frangible bullets around the house is more likely to meet with plaster or sheetrock than brick or concrete.
The "problem" is not lethality at 2 inches, it's some scared non-military dude waking up at 3am to the sound of breaking glass and shooting in a panic and gut shooting some puke who ends up sobbing about his meth problem in front of a jury with his colostomy bag hanging off the witness stand.

islandphish
February 14, 2011, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't buy a DSA right now, lots and lots and lots of different issues. Including recalls and should have been recalls and very super slow turnaround times for warranty work. Also their idea of good to go from the box is they take responsibility after trying to get you to shoot 200$ of ammo to "break it in".

Shop around, find a nice kit gun. If you must have the best send that kit gun to your pick of a good FAL smith and have them do a complete reassemble. All DSA really is is a parts kit, USA 922r parts, new manufacture receiver and a refinish. They aren't doing turd as far as real tuning.

I've don't understand DSA, pretty much paying big money for parkerizing.

Motega
February 14, 2011, 05:50 PM
Above post is not correct- I;ve been doing an hour a day of cruising the boards and NEW DSA rifles have had exactly ONE recall which they, by all accounts, have been quick to acknowledge and service. All manufacturers of all products have recalls from baby food to bombs. As far as complaints regarding parts, the problems I have personally questioned- after all this purchase represents a 10 year savings and once in a lifetime rifle for me- all boiled down to people with a little knowledge (a dangerous thing) attempting to piece a FAL together from parts located LITERALLY from all corners of the Earth.

This guy didn't even know what a FAL was a week ago and you are suggesting he go buy a box of parts and build it? Or buy a box of parts and then locate someone to build it for him?

So the DSA SA58 is a kit gun?

Lastly, what kind of "tuning" would you like a production rifle done to it? Trigger job ? Offered. Custom gunsmithing from your choice of finishes to installation of sights and rails? Also offered.

Sorry but I'd rather drive a real Ferrari than a Ferrari KIT put on a VW Beetle body.

Of course, the point is moot since the SA58 is not in his price range... but since no one NEEDS a semi-auto .308 I still say save your dough and buy one when you can afford it.

KAK
February 14, 2011, 05:59 PM
I would go M1a or FAL. Im leaning toward the M1A because it has more readily available mags.

Beentown
February 14, 2011, 07:50 PM
1stmarine,

Where did you get the cheek rest for your Tapco stock?

Thanks in advance,

Beentown

akgriffin
February 14, 2011, 08:00 PM
Im looking for my first semi .308 later this year, and im looking at the DPMS Panther LR-308B for my first AR.

1stmarine
February 14, 2011, 08:30 PM
Beentown,
I got the cheekrest at the local store at the discount bin and bought all they had but I believe they can be found online. Look for it as UTG 4 POSITION STOCK CHEEKREST. I found this one.... It looks the same to me..... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310291967343&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
February 14, 2011, 08:41 PM
Motega,
Everyone should use what they feel comfortable using. There is no need to be 'trained warriors' but whatever anyone uses they should be trained on the actual operation and defensive shooting training otherwise if a situation comes up anything can happen.
Also knowing the state and local laws and be aware when the use a firearm is appropriate and justifiable by law but this is out of subject.
All that I intend here is to let you and folks know that frangible ammunition is an alternative to reduce risk specially with the powerfull .308
Not to eliminate ALL the RISK but definitely helps a lot. That's the main reason it was created for.
If you live in an apartment building w/o a firewall and in close proximity to other people any firearms and ammo should be considered very carefully. Also there are other ways to stop a threat at close range w/o blasting your walls.
Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
February 14, 2011, 08:46 PM
akgriffin,
When I looked at some of the ARs I tried to find preban magazines for the DPMS but I couldn't find any other than SR25 (knights armament) for $90 each and they needed modification at which point they cease to be preban anyway.
Did you or anyone find any preban that would suite the DPMS?

On the other hand I found the Rock Rivers that using the FAL metric magazines these are plentiful and cheap plus you can share with FAL systems you might have.

also SI defense makes a nice billet for the G3 mags but I am not so key of those.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
E.

islandphish
February 14, 2011, 10:20 PM
What I'm saying is you can give 900$ for a STG-58 kit on an Imbel receiver.

Send it to ARS or whoever and give em 400 bucks. They will do a complete reassemble and refinish.

Now you have a really awesome FAL.

DSA has gone down in quality, just look at their parts. I'd rather have Austrian parts than Brazilian...maybe that' just me, as the IMBEL receiver has been proven good.

You can have a super biz wham custom assembled FAL from one of the premier smiths in the nation for like 1400 bucks all told...Why on earth would you buy from DSA?

Davidfl
February 15, 2011, 05:09 PM
;);)

Motega
February 15, 2011, 06:47 PM
Id say the answer to that is that for a couple hundred more you can have a BRAND NEW whiz bam rifle from DSA with matching parts and a warranty?

Davidfl
February 15, 2011, 09:13 PM
nice how much is a dsa

1stmarine
February 18, 2011, 12:24 AM
Davidfl,
Did you select one already?

Davidfl
February 19, 2011, 07:09 PM
yes im going to get the saige 308

1stmarine
February 19, 2011, 10:09 PM
Which one the 16" or the 21" one?

Davidfl
February 20, 2011, 04:37 PM
16" one

Davidfl
February 20, 2011, 04:38 PM
im from fl in i just move in ga i need a bit more time lol to get it ;);)

1stmarine
February 20, 2011, 07:46 PM
Good choice. Do not wait too long.

Rich223
February 20, 2011, 07:50 PM
oops -- - - - -- wrong post

d2wing
February 20, 2011, 08:45 PM
If I could afford it a Knight Arms M110. For about $1000 a DPMS Panther looks good. I shoulda bought a Winchester SRX when I they were marked $500.00.

Davidfl
February 20, 2011, 10:13 PM
no way Knight Arms M110 for $1000

greg531mi
February 21, 2011, 01:32 AM
Surprise no one mention the HK 770 or the Benelli R9........Great hunting rifles

skipbo32
February 21, 2011, 02:12 PM
sorry, i know i keep posting this pic, but.....ok.......a .308 semi-automatic:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04100.jpg

m1a scout in vltor stock.....leatherwood hi lux scope.

Davidfl
February 21, 2011, 02:18 PM
wow nice m1a man

skipbo32
February 21, 2011, 04:29 PM
thanks david. i got your PM. here is a list of what the mods are:


vltor m14 stock (originally black then painted)

harris bipod

tango down front grip

gg&g bottom and side rails

leatherwood hi lux 1-4x scope w/ illuminated retical

arms 18 mount

arms 18 rings

smith enterprises gas lock/ front sight

vortex flash hider

fulton armory dummy switch

sadlak bipod stud



here is another pic with a 25rd mag........also you can see the dummy switch. i got the stock with the cut out because i keep hearing how the vltor stocks that have the hole filled keep cracking.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04111.jpg

skipbo32
February 21, 2011, 04:39 PM
david,

if this is your first .308 then i HIGHLY RECOMEND the M1A standard. you can get one for just over $1,000 then put an aimpoint on it. let me tell ya.....that setup is one fun gun to shoot. i got addicted and here are my standards. you just can not go wrong with a M1A standard. awesome gun!:evil:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03869.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03946-1.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03934.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/charlene2.jpg

Motega
February 21, 2011, 07:17 PM
Even though I'm sooooo excited for the FAL I ordered to get here I have to concur that an M1A is not only potentially very accurate, but has such a rich and distinguished history that every enthusiast needs one in the family. It occurred to me that the reason I didn't even consider one if because my father has one from the civilian marksmanship program... otherwise I think I might have gone with an M1 before the FAL.

mini14gb
February 21, 2011, 07:25 PM
I have a Armalite AR-10 carbine. Its been such a great rifle. Not one problem in well over 2000 rounds.

CobraGT
March 3, 2011, 12:13 AM
OK, the more I have the RFB out, the more I like it. About 500 rounds through it so far, without one malfunction... the forward ejection seemed wierd at first, but I'm getting used to it :) Finally have it set up the way I want it, with optics/buis/vfg :evil: Pricey, and if I could own a FAL here, I would... but if you want a .308 and like bullpups, I heartily recommend picking one up!


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c281/cobragt/Bullpups003.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c281/cobragt/Bullpups001.jpg

UnTainted
March 3, 2011, 04:33 PM
I'd recommend the Armalite ar-10, but that's because that's what I bought and I have just absolutely loved how it'll shoot whatever I put in it, it'll do it MOA, and it has already helped me harvest a deer while hunting. It is my favorite rifle that I own right now.

http://i54.tinypic.com/16adwdx.jpg

Davidfl
March 21, 2011, 09:04 PM
nice guns guys

jobu07
March 21, 2011, 10:46 PM
Another Armalite AR-10 to make you think :cool: Please pay no mind to the sundries and assorted toiletries... Should have cleaned up the "set."

crossrhodes
March 21, 2011, 11:08 PM
I took the plunge and picked up a DPMS LR 308 C, was called the TAC 20 at one time. I have a little over 2000 rounds down the tube. Lots of accessories available to mod to your taste too. I already have an M1A1 and L1A1 and didn't want to pay 2G plus for an AR platform in 7.62 I'm happy so far.

henschman
March 22, 2011, 03:13 PM
Once upon a time I had an LR-308C, but I sold it because it was too heavy for my purposes. When I ordered it I didn't realize that it had such a huge heavy barrel under the handguards. I was expecting something about the weight of an M1A, but it was significantly more.

I did like how accurate it was. It would do 1 MOA with british surplus ammo.

crossrhodes
March 22, 2011, 09:25 PM
Yes the DPMS is a heavy rifle and after you add a free float rail and any other gear it's a muscle builder. But it is damn accurate for a semi. But mine is a range queen so I don't have to worry about humping it over ridge lines. I'm retired so I'm not out in the toulies wiggling weeds any more.

True Grit
March 22, 2011, 11:15 PM
Saiga

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