Why would one choose 8 pellet 00 over 9 pellet?


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markush
February 9, 2011, 12:32 PM
I'm using the Winchester Ranger low recoil 9 pellet 00 in my HD gun. They also make this in an 8 pellet version. My thinking was, the more pellets the better. But then again, there must be a reason they make it in 8 pellets and there must be pros and cons to each version. What are the pros and cons to each version?

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Fred Fuller
February 9, 2011, 12:47 PM
Given the laws of physics there are only two fundamental ways to reduce recoil in a shotgun load- reduce the velocity of the payload, or reduce the weight of the payload. An eight pellet load of 00 is just one approach to reducing recoil.

All other things being equal, there's very little that nine 00 pellets will do, that eight 00 pellets won't do. Put 'em where they need to go, and prepare for an immediate follow-up shot if the first one doesn't work. Even shotguns are not death rays...

lpl

Sebastian the Ibis
February 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
I always asked myself basically the same question, Why do people chose 9 pellet OO shells over 15 pellet 3 in magnum shells?

451 Detonics
February 9, 2011, 01:19 PM
Because a 3 inch magnum with that heavy a load requires twice as much time for a follow up shot...not good when you need to be fast.

Girodin
February 9, 2011, 02:44 PM
Because a 3 inch magnum with that heavy a load requires twice as much time for a follow up shot...not good when you need to be fast.

Perhaps for some shooters with some guns. There are guns for which I would see the heavier load being a net loss however, according to my shot timer, for me with my go to shotgun a followup with 3" shells is certainly does not take double the time.

txhoghunter
February 9, 2011, 03:08 PM
Put 'em where they need to go, and prepare for an immediate follow-up shot if the first one doesn't work. Even shotguns are not death rays...

Remember this advice because it is great. People often see a shotgun with 00 buck as a one-shot-stop, however, as with dealing with a threat using a handgun or a rifle, the idea of shooting in defense is to shoot until the threat STOPS. Yes, a shotgun is devastating at close range, but be prepared to fire multiple times if the threat is still present.

DPris
February 9, 2011, 03:22 PM
Recoil & spread.
Denis

Varob
February 9, 2011, 03:23 PM
Typically, the 00 with 9 pellets are .32 cal. each. Do the 8 pellet shells use .32 cal. pellets or are they a larger caliber?

Sebastian the Ibis
February 9, 2011, 03:24 PM
the idea of shooting in defense is to shoot until the threat STOPS. Yes, a shotgun is devastating at close range, but be prepared to fire multiple times if the threat is still present.

Exactly. However, in they eyes of jurors, judges, prosecutors and cops more shots is a bad thing. Since, you could be second guessed on whether or not you shot a guy after he was no longer a threat. Assuming you can shoot those smaller shells faster, how are you going to explain 4 reduced recoil slugs in a bad guy, each of which destroys the bg's combat effectiveness (i.e. one shatters hip, one through femur, one through each lung) even though you got all four shots off before he hit the ground? Therefore, for HD in my condo, i want as much boom as possible per shot, so I can fire as few shots as possible.

memphisjim
February 9, 2011, 03:34 PM
to clarify things about the 8,9, 15 shot 00 bucks the reason being their tactical shotguns wont shoot 18 pellet 3.5 inchers like the benellis

451 Detonics
February 9, 2011, 04:10 PM
Perhaps for some shooters with some guns. There are guns for which I would see the heavier load being a net loss however, according to my shot timer, for me with my go to shotgun a followup with 3" shells is certainly does not take double the time.

I am willing to bet it is significantly longer that it would be with a 2 3/4 9 pellet load. If this wasn't true then why wouldn't have pins shooters taken advantage of the heavy loads instead of going as light as possible? I normally ran well under 3 seconds on the new tables last time I shot...no way I could do that with a 3 inch magnum load out of any gun and neither could anyone else I know including several Master Blasters.

oneounceload
February 9, 2011, 04:11 PM
Given the laws of physics there are only two fundamental ways to reduce recoil in a shotgun load- reduce the velocity of the payload, or reduce the weight of the payload.

Just to add for clarification - adding weight to the gun also reduces recoil

red rick
February 9, 2011, 04:50 PM
It's the one that I could find at the store.

2WheelsGood
February 9, 2011, 05:10 PM
Typically, the 00 with 9 pellets are .32 cal. each. Do the 8 pellet shells use .32 cal. pellets or are they a larger caliber?I'm a bit ignorant on the subject, so I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but if the pellets were a larger size, I would think they wouldn't be 00.

1911Tuner
February 9, 2011, 05:24 PM
Just to add for clarification - adding weight to the gun also reduces recoil


Nope. It just slows down the gun's (rate of) acceleration backward and reduces your perception of recoil. Equal and opposite = equal momentum forward and backward.
You'll move just as far. You just won't move as fast.

Typically, the 00 with 9 pellets are .32 cal. each. Do the 8 pellet shells use .32 cal. pellets or are they a larger caliber?

00Buck is 00Buck, regardless of how many there are in a shell.

Girodin
February 9, 2011, 06:26 PM
I am willing to bet it is significantly longer that it would be with a 2 3/4 9 pellet load.

Define significant. There is a difference but perhaps we are talking past each other having a different idea of what consittutes significant. I've not shot pins with a shotgun and perhaps there is also a difference in the time to re-acquire a pin versus COM of a silhouette?

I'll give it another go on the shot timer next time I shoot, doing both COM shots and trying with a smaller target and report back.

1911Tuner
February 9, 2011, 06:34 PM
Define significant.

When a man is doing his level best to kill you, a tenth of a second can be signifigant enough to determine whether you go home or to the morgue.

dawg23
February 9, 2011, 08:03 PM
Given the laws of physics there are only two fundamental ways to reduce recoil in a shotgun load- reduce the velocity of the payload, or reduce the weight of the payload. An eight pellet load of 00 is just one approach to reducing recoil.


In addition to this:

Most Winchester 9 pellet 00 loads have an advertised muzzle velocity of 1325 ft/sec.

Most Winchester 8 pellet 00 loads that I've seen have an advertised muzzle velocity of 1145 ft/sec. They achieve their "reduced recoil," not just through of the reduced payload, but also through the reduced velocity.

The 8 pellet loads should be excellent for home defense -- just make sure you do some testing to determine how they will pattern in your gun with your particular choke tubes.

gamestalker
February 9, 2011, 08:12 PM
I load a 1 5/8 oz. load of copper plated BB with a max powder charge of Longshot for both S.D and turkey hunting. I've killed turkey at 60 yds. with that load. Never had much liking for 00 but have loaded #4 buck when I can't find the plated BB.

oneounceload
February 9, 2011, 08:45 PM
Disagree 1911 - take the same load and shoot it in a 6# 12 gauge and a 9# 12 gauge - the recorded recoil is less due to the mass of the gun - while the identical load will generate X force, it has to overcome the mass of the gun - and a heavier gun will reduce the recoil effect to the shooter

DBR
February 10, 2011, 02:42 AM
In my shotguns ( 870 Vang Comp and Benelli Nova Tactical) 8 pellet Federal Tactical low recoil 00 Buckshot - not Flight Control - patterns better than the same 9 pellet low recoil load. I have read this is because the stack of pellets in the 8 pellet shell is symmetrical whereas 9 pellet is not.

With 9 pellets I seem to get consistent one pellet fliers. This also happens with the 9 pellet low recoil Flight Control loads.

For all practical purposes I think 8 pellets is enough and I am more concerned about errant pellets outside of the main pattern.

DBR
February 10, 2011, 02:44 AM
A heavier gun reduces the acceleration of the recoil impulse making it more like a push than a jab.

ironhead7544
February 10, 2011, 06:53 PM
There is a larger pellet load, OOO buck. Its .36 inch in diameter. I have found that the low velocity LE OO buck loads shoot into about 12 inches at 25 yards. The standard loads go about 24 inches. This is with 5 shots.

JaxNovice
February 10, 2011, 07:09 PM
Spread is not applicable in the consideration. For HD purposes you are looking at a shot of no more than the widest room of your house. Yes there are exceptions, but in reality you are talking room dimension.

markush
February 10, 2011, 09:09 PM
Can someone tell me if the recoil difference is even noticeable between the 8 and 9 pellet versions of reduced recoil Winchester Ranger?

rbernie
February 10, 2011, 09:18 PM
Spread is not applicable in the consideration. For HD purposes you are looking at a shot of no more than the widest room of your house. Yes there are exceptions, but in reality you are talking room dimension.Well, no - it is not uncommon to have to shoot down hallways and stairs and such.

In my house, the longest unobstructed shot indoors would be almost fifteen yards. If I lived back in the country, where defense of outbuildings and stock and implements is not unlikely, it's pretty easy to see how distances can quickly get into the 25+ yard range.

Your engagement distance is not guaranteed to be the same as mine, and patterns should be selected to account for individual circumstance.

JaxNovice
February 11, 2011, 05:54 AM
Well, no - it is not uncommon to have to shoot down hallways and stairs and such.

In my house, the longest unobstructed shot indoors would be almost fifteen yards. If I lived back in the country, where defense of outbuildings and stock and implements is not unlikely, it's pretty easy to see how distances can quickly get into the 25+ yard range.

Your engagement distance is not guaranteed to be the same as mine, and patterns should be selected to account for individual circumstance.

Again, I stated that their are exceptions. You brought up a nice exception.

arizona98tj
February 12, 2011, 10:53 PM
Can someone tell me if the recoil difference is even noticeable between the 8 and 9 pellet versions of reduced recoil Winchester Ranger?
I can tell you that I can't tell the difference. IMO, once you are into the reduced recoil arena, it doesn't make much difference. I shoot reduced recoil at all of my training classes. With the amount of buck, slugs, and bird we go through in a 2 or 4 day period....I wouldn't enjoy it at full power loadings.

Rich223
February 19, 2011, 03:21 PM
recoil

multigauge
February 19, 2011, 09:44 PM
00 buck used to be 00 buck but it isn't any more if the shell has a shotcup. The manufacturer calls it 00 buck, but to fit 3 layers of 3 pellets the shot has to be .315 instead of .330. 4 layers of 2 00 buck will still fit in most 12 gauge shotcups. Each load will probably perform well, but it is sad that the manufacturers have downsized the shot size without advising the consumers.

grendelbane
February 20, 2011, 09:16 PM
The same thing has occured with 000 buck. I dissected one round, and the pellets were closer to .34" than they were .36".

Interestingly enough, the 8 pellets of 000 buck weighed the same as 9 pellets of 00 buck from the same manufacturer.

Really, they should have sold it as 00.34 buck.

mgkdrgn
February 21, 2011, 09:12 PM
I always asked myself basically the same question, Why do people chose 9 pellet OO shells over 15 pellet 3 in magnum shells?
Some people don't like to spent that much time/money on orthopedic surgery ... :-)

RX-178
February 22, 2011, 06:19 AM
I've always liked S&B 12 pellet 00 buck (2 3/4"). It keeps enough decently sized pellets in the paper at 25+ yards when I patterned it. It's got kick, but I don't find it unpleasant to shoot (I'm also 6' 200lb, so YMMV). I bought so much of it on sale that I use it as practice ammo too.

I can't remember firing anything under a 9 pellet 00 load out of any of my 12 gauges, but I can tell you it ALL kicks.

Carl N. Brown
February 22, 2011, 07:19 AM
Heavier gun means lower velocity of recoil. The momentum is the same, but the kinetic energy (impact in foot/lbs) is actually lower.

Carl N. Brown
February 22, 2011, 07:26 AM
S&B 12 pellet 00 buck (2 3/4") is a roll crimp with over shot wad. Fired it is the same length as a 2 3/4" shell, but my pump will hold five 2 3/4" in the magazine, but only four S&B shells because the loaded shell is slightly longer than 2 3/4" although the fired shell fits a 2 3/4" chamber.

Panzercat
February 22, 2011, 10:31 AM
Even shotguns are not death rays...
I want a shotgun death ray now. :(

mes227
February 22, 2011, 10:50 AM
Heavier gun means lower velocity of recoil. The momentum is the same, but the kinetic energy (impact in foot/lbs) is actually lower.
___

Just to clarify how the physics work.

Momentum = Velocity x Mass. If you're considering the felt recoil, then it's the Velocity of the gun x Mass of the gun. Momentum is the always the same for a given discharge (bullet weight and muzzle velocity). Thus, the bigger the gun the lower it's velocity.

Kinetic Energy = Momentum x Velocity (or Velocity squared x Mass). Thus, again, the bigger (heavier) the gun the lower the velocity and the much lower the KE.

It is velocity that your arm feels more than momentum, since your arm now has to decelerate the gun back to a zero velocity. The force your arm must exert is: F = Mass of the gun x Deceleration of the gun. Deceleration = max velocity / how fast you want to stop it moving.

This ignores the shape of the gun. Some direct the recoil square into your hand, others encourage the gun to rotate and thus dissipate some of that momentum via angular deceleration.

Girodin
February 22, 2011, 03:07 PM
So I went out shooting the other day. With this thread in mind I brought along various 00 buckshot loads and a shot timer.

I set up a silhouette at aprox 10 yards, what seemed to approximate the most likely distance to encounter someone in my house (note, not a max possible distance). I sliced around cover and fired two shots. I preformed this a number of times first with 2 3/4" Winchester bulk ammo, then a 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck, and lastly some Winchester 3" 15 pellet loads I'd picked up at walmart just for the occasion. I planned to use 3 different guns, my modified saiga 12, the gun I had in mind when I made my first post in this thread, a Mossberg 930 SPX, and a pump either 500 or 870. I didn't get around to shooting a pump.

After averaging out the times there was no difference between the bird shot and 2 3/4" buck loads. Both had an average of 0.22 seconds with the S12 and 0.23 with the 930, which I had never shot before. Not particularly fast (but my lack of skill is another matter).

I then ran the 3" loads. There was a noticeable difference in felt recoil. It was not horrible but if I was doing a 200 round shotgun course I'd prefer the lighter loads. I was curious to see what the timer would show. It was slower. The average for the S12 wasa split of 0.24. It was 0.02 seconds slower to fire a followup. Is that significantly slower? The difference with the mossberg was 0.05 which may be in part to me not knowing the gun as well. It might also be that it is a lighter gun than the S12

Given the discussion about shooting bowling pins I wanted to test acquiring a second smaller target. I used two 6" steel plates placed roughly 10 feet apart. The average time difference for the 15 pellet load was .04 with the S12. I didn't test the 930 as I was letting a friend shoot it at that point.

So those are the numbers. I suppose whether that equates to a significant time difference depends on how you define significant. It was suggested that 0.1 seconds was significant. Is 0.02 or 0.04? Is landing 6 more pellets per shot, 12 on the pair a good trade off for the slower followup? A third shot would leave one 3 pellets shy of the pair with the 3" load, and it would also be over a tenth slower. I personally would feel comfortable with either load. In a gun that wasn't as soft shooting as my S12 (I also found the 930 to be very tolerable) I might have a much stronger preference for the light loads.

kmrcstintn
February 26, 2011, 05:54 PM
some of the 'lower recoil' offerings are 8 pellet which promotes better control during multiple shot strings of fire; also sometimes these loads can also offer tighter and more consistent patterns...extremely important for HD when a stray pellet can cause unwanted collateral damage, unintentional injury or death to an innocent bystander

MilitisDeii
February 27, 2011, 09:33 AM
You should also consider the kind of shotgun
used.

I have shot two different o/u shotguns
of very similar construction.

The first had a noticeable but pleasant recoil
even with heavier loads.

The second punched like hell even with
very light loads.

So buy a good gun and you dont have to
worry too much about the ammo used.

Mark8252
March 6, 2011, 10:11 PM
How about using 00 ten guage? Two placed shots with any shotgun 00 buck with stop your one person bad guy problem. The math is not needed. Personally I have a 410 revolver loaded with #4 buck. Same answer. Bigger and badder is not required. Skill with any shotgun will solve your problem much more so than big and bad.

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