I'm in DENYal too


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bikemutt
February 9, 2011, 02:13 PM
Guess it had to happen sooner or later, the dreaded DENY.

Considering I was proceeded just 10 days prior and 35 days prior to that, for handguns, someone made a mistake since I have a clean record and have committed no crimes, not even a parking ticket. I do have a current CPL.

The dealer provided me the brochure with the NTN. Then he tells me some things that just don't sound right. First he says I should call the local city PD since they are probably the ones who denied. Then he says to call the county next, then the State Patrol, then NICS. I'm doing a ***? since I have no idea. Finally one of the counter guys tells him it was called in, so then he says forget it, just call NICS.

So I call NICS and the automation says they don't give out info over the phone, need to email, fax or mail full name, address and NTN. So I emailed it to a_nics@leo.gov.

Questions for anyone else who's been through this: does emailing NICS actually work? How long before they tell me what's up?

What sucks is this was a straight-across trade, I don't want to pay a 15% restock for a $0 transaction. So the trade sits in the dealer's safe doing neither of us any good. He did say if I don't want to mess with an appeal we can kill the transaction, begs the question though, will he give back the trade to a guy who got denied?

:(

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browneu
February 9, 2011, 02:27 PM
Wow that is a sticky situation. The good thing is 15% of 0 is a 0 restocking fee. :p

I'm sorry about your situation. I would also fax the information to try to get the information back quickly.

bikemutt
February 9, 2011, 03:28 PM
I drilled down through NICS automated voice mail just now and found out the appeals process is now taking, on average, 174 days. What a cluster.

Guess I'll wait to see what the reason they denied me is, which they are supposed to handle within 5 days, then just kill the deal.

Crazy.

dogtown tom
February 9, 2011, 03:48 PM
bikemutt: .....So I call NICS and the automation says they don't give out info over the phone, need to email, fax or mail full name, address and NTN. So I emailed it to a_nics@leo.gov.
Questions for anyone else who's been through this: does emailing NICS actually work?
The NICS brochures states several times that the request must be in writing....and email/snail mail/fax will all work.


bikemutt ...He did say if I don't want to mess with an appeal we can kill the transaction, begs the question though, will he give back the trade to a guy who got denied?
Nope. It's on his books so a 4473 & NICS would be required.

Owen Sparks
February 9, 2011, 06:19 PM
If you were accused of murder you would not have to prove your innocents, the state would have to prove you guilty. How is it that the burden of proof falls on an individual who is trying to exercize a constitutional right in buying arms, the one and only item that the constitution guarantees you the right to posess?

calaverasslim
February 9, 2011, 06:23 PM
What is the pits is the person who was denied won't get his gun back cuz the dealer need the guy to fill out a 4473 and then he will be denied again.

bikemutt
February 9, 2011, 06:34 PM
What is the pits is the person who was denied won't get his gun back cuz the dealer need the guy to fill out a 4473 and then he will be denied again.
I realize hope is not a strategy, but, my hope is this deny is not the start of a trend, just as my last 10 proceeds have proven not to be a trend, at least not a real long one.

I need to wait and see what the stated reason is. Thinking back on the sale, the salesman was having a bad day all around, seemed detached and error prone, for all I know he told NICS my name is John Hinckley.

scrood?
February 9, 2011, 07:32 PM
Thats one thing I like about my state, we have a permit. I only get NICS once every 3 years. I renew my card plenty in advance just in case. If I decide to purchase, I make sure I am not in between cards.

bikemutt
February 10, 2011, 07:38 PM
I heard there's a similar measure on the table here in WA, it would be nice not have to deal with NICS but once every 5 years.

Anyway, stopped by the gun store today and asked if he felt like waiting possibly 170+ days for this appeal. He went and talked to the boss and said it's really important to follow though on the appeal or run the risk of being in felonious possession, have to give all my guns etc. He say they don't care how long it takes, they will hold the guns until it's resolved. Last, he says I should go to state patrol and have them run a check on me just in case, which I did, clean.

I'm beginning to see the benefit of FTF, private sales.

browneu
February 10, 2011, 07:46 PM
I would like to commend your FFL for being willing to work with you on this. Sounds like he is a great business owner.

scrood?
February 10, 2011, 07:49 PM
someone needs To organize a class action against nics.

DenaliPark
February 10, 2011, 08:04 PM
If you were accused of murder you would not have to prove your innocents, the state would have to prove you guilty. How is it that the burden of proof falls on an individual who is trying to exercize a constitutional right in buying arms, the one and only item that the constitution guarantees you the right to posess?
Because the 2nd was usurped long, long ago. It was totally usurped when they passed Brady. Just remember, a denial can happen at any time, to anyone! When the government, must first give you its permission before allowing you to do a thing, well that isn't a right, thats a privilege, which are easily given, and easily taken away...

bikemutt
February 10, 2011, 08:16 PM
Needless to say I totally agree.

bikemutt
February 10, 2011, 08:21 PM
I'll be having a consultation with a 2A attorney in the next few days. As much as it galls me to have to pay one to be certain I don't step in legal cow pie, I'm not going to allow my ignorance to make a felon out of me.

Linda
February 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
I wonder if the person calling it in, accidently gave some wrong info such as wrong social, state born, etc?

bikemutt
February 12, 2011, 03:37 PM
That's my hope Linda.

If this were my first transfer after a long time, or ever, I'd have no idea why they would deny me. Since they last proceeded me just over a week prior to this deny, and nothing has happened to change my legal status, a case of mistaken identity or inability to identify me seems plausible.

bikemutt
March 11, 2011, 06:57 PM
Quick update: The problem appears to be my name being associated with an alias for some guy with a rap sheet that goes from here to Toledo. I've asked legal council to assist in getting it cleared up. I'm still puzzled how they figured I was OK on Monday and not OK on Friday but that's how it goes sometimes I guess.

browneu
March 11, 2011, 07:41 PM
That's good to hear. Thank you for the update.

langenc
March 11, 2011, 11:14 PM
I'm beginning to see the benefit of FTF, private sales.

I believe that is backwards--

You should be seeing the hazard of the NICS and -registration.

bikemutt
March 12, 2011, 12:11 AM
Quite right langenc. Still, I'm going to see this one through to the end, when I'll leave the store with the pistol, unless of course I expire from old age in the mean time.

btg3
March 12, 2011, 09:54 AM
Kudos for your persistence and patience. Hope the desired outcome is soon realized.

xcgates
March 12, 2011, 06:58 PM
After seeing a few threads on appeals, I decided to see if I could find any info on a mandated response time for the appeal. As in similar to the delay, where if they don't resolve in 'X' days, they default to proceed.

This is one of my several likely "politically incorrect" situations in this country where the wheels of justice sure seem to be leading by the backsides of bureaucrats/politicians. Like I've ever cared about saying things politically incorrect.

vaherder
March 13, 2011, 01:43 PM
Class action lawsuit- Really. Find a lawyer who will handle it. Who is going to pay the lawyers? This isnt a defective hip replacement case.

FBI and DOJ have other budget priorities and with the FBI its their wonderful SAs. Have to fight crime and terrorism. Background checks to purchase firearms are very low on the priority list. A denial is even lower on the priority list. The way the FBI and DOJ looks at it is chances are good its keeping a firearm out of the hands of criminal and if its a mix up etc the poor tax payer is going to have to wait and wait. Priority and funding goes to clearing the most checks and not to the small percentage of denials.

The poor civil servants handling denials and appeals are probably overwhelmed with a 6mo backlog and since Comrade Barry said no pay raises for the next two years, certain tea party Nazis want to furlough them for 10 days w/o pay, give them no pay raises for 5 years, 86 their step increases and performance bonuses and there is still a chance of a govt shutdown I am sure their morale sucks. Wouldnt yours? And the best part is their big boss is probably a Special Agent who got the job because he/she screwed up royally. You dont put your best in charge of this operation.

Did our application include your SSN etc?

VA herder

xcgates
March 13, 2011, 01:49 PM
ACK! Guess I should read what I post more carefully.

I meant to ask, is there a time restriction on the appeal process? Similar to the delay, where if it doesn't get finished in X amount of time, it defaults to proceed?

(I said I went looking for it, didn't say that I failed miserably with getting any results.)

vaherder
March 13, 2011, 02:02 PM
Why would it default to a proceed? Think about it. Imagine the MSM going nuts along with anti 2As if a default went to a proceed and a felon used the handgun and offed a couple dozen folks.

FBI and DOJ's thinking is the denial and appeal process is keeping the guns out of the hands of a possible criminal. They are not thinking some poor schmo has the same name as a felon and poor guy is going to have to wait for 6mo to a year to get his gun.

When they report this info to Congress the most important stat is we processed
however many million checks and 96+% or whatever were favorable in less then 72hrs or whatever the law says. Denials and appeals are a paragraph on the last page. No one cares how long the appeals process takes as long as there is an appeals process.

va herder

lobo9er
March 13, 2011, 02:12 PM
Thats one thing I like about my state, we have a permit. I only get NICS once every 3 years. I renew my card plenty in advance just in case. If I decide to purchase, I make sure I am not in between cards.

What state is that?

bikemutt
March 13, 2011, 02:26 PM
From what I can tell the appeals process starts with a fork in the road, how long it takes depends on which path is taken.

The fork: Does the person denied believe, based on the reason given, he/she is in fact the person in question?

If the answer is no then I think it's a straight forward process: get printed (they supply the forms), mail it in. NICS will compare the submitted prints with the person who they thought you were, if it's not you, you are good to go. I believe they issue a letter you can take to the FFL to proceed the transaction. If it turns out the prints match, welcome to the bonus round.

If the answer is yes then it's a question of whether the record they have is accurate. This includes, but is not limited to criminal records. Whatever the reason is for the denial, if the person denied believes the decision was based on inaccurate information, it's going to take time to correct it. Of course, if the information they have is correct, it's probably game-over.

In my case, it appears I'll need to visit the state patrol, get printed, get something then which says I'm me and that no one else is me. Then visit the PD that submitted the incorrect information, get them to agree it was their error, and have them issue a letter or something clearing it up. Submit that, and maybe some other things my attorney hasn't thought up yet, to NICS, and hope they agree.

Anyway, all of this is going to take time and money but the end result will be to clear my reasonably good name so I don't have to endure this again. And, I don't simply want a UPIN that masks the problem just so I can transfer firearms, I want the record corrected so I can live and die in peace knowing only I am me. That too will take time and money.

In a strange way I'm glad it happened. The pistol is just another gun, it can wait. I found out something I didn't know about which may have been detrimental to me at some point in the future, I have the opportunity now to clear it up and move on. A blessing in disguise as my dear Mom used to say.

Gouranga
March 13, 2011, 02:45 PM
Another reason I love the NC CCW permit. No NICS for anything except for when I renew my permit (every 5 years)

xcgates
March 13, 2011, 02:58 PM
I guess I just live in a fantasy world where the burden of proof should be on the government when they want to take something away. As in, we think you are a prohibited person, hang on, we will get back to you eventually, versus we will get back to you within [fill in the blank] days, and if we haven't finished our job, that's on us.

My bad, I should know by now never to insert logic into how the government works.

Maverick223
March 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
Another reason I love the NC CCW permit. No NICS for anything except for when I renew my permit (every 5 years)+1, PITA to get (at least for those that live in Meck. Co. and have to drive up to Charlotte) but once completed it makes future purchases fairly easy.

:)

scrood?
March 13, 2011, 07:06 PM
lobo

its nebraska

sonick808
March 14, 2011, 10:41 PM
AZ also has the NICS-free purchases with CCW. I love it. Walk in. Fill out 4473. Pay. b/s for an hour or two. Walk out. Pistol Parlour in Mesa gets a dedicated amount of my income per year :)

AZ doesn't require a permit to carry anymore, but I prefer to have it to avoid any errant NICS denials.

bikemutt
March 15, 2011, 10:53 AM
A bill allowing CPL holders to bypass NICS was introduced in WA this legislative season but died in chamber. It may get revived in a late session, who knows. WA is in deep financial trouble, they may want to quit being point of contact for pistol transfers to save money, although I suppose they could just kick it back to the feds.

dogtown tom
March 15, 2011, 12:06 PM
bikemutt A bill allowing CPL holders to bypass NICS was introduced in WA this legislative season but died in chamber....
FBI NICS exemptions don't work that way. State legislators don't get to tell the ATF who gets exempted......the ATF gets to do that.

An exemption to the FBI NICS may be granted when the purchaser holds a valid state permit that meets the ATF requirements (typically fingerprints, photographs & background check) and including a maximum length of time that the state permit is valid. I think the max time is five or six years....those permits that are "lifetime" are no longer valid as an exemption to NICS.

BP Hunter
March 15, 2011, 12:26 PM
bikemut,

Sorry to hear about your "deny". It's a VERY simple proces really. Just follow the instructions on the appeal with the NTN and wait for their response. I was denied once, I simply followed the instructions and received my appeal to proceed in 1 WEEK!! I also live in WA.

bikemutt
March 15, 2011, 12:46 PM
dogtown tom, I'm sure you are correct, I paraphrased the bill. In any event, regardless of who allows who to do what, the end result is those with a valid CPL issued AFTER the date the law was to have become effective, would have been granted an exemption to the NICS check.

Here is the bill digest so I don't keep digging myself a deeper hole:

"HB 1923 passed out of the House Judiciary Committee on 17 February on a 12-1 vote, following a short amendment. It now goes to House Rules awaiting a vote by the full House (floor vote). As amended, the bill will supposedly meet the BATFE standard for a NICS waiver, meaning anyone with a CPL issued after the effective date of the law (IF it passes) will not require a NICS check before taking delivery of a firearm."

And, I stand corrected, the bill is still in play as of 3/11/2011 and has been filed for the 2011-2012 biennium. There were several CPL-related bills all of which died except 1923.

bikemutt
May 26, 2011, 07:21 PM
After 106 days I'm pleased to report that NICS has resolved this denial in my favor. They also processed my VAF application and issued me a UPIN for future transfers.

A good day indeed. I'll be picking that gun up tomorrow!

Maverick223
May 26, 2011, 07:29 PM
Congrats, and good decision to get the UPIN to mitigate further problems.

:)

browneu
May 26, 2011, 07:41 PM
Congratulations I love happy endings.

ATBackPackin
May 26, 2011, 09:05 PM
After 106 days I'm pleased to report that NICS has resolved this denial in my favor.

Did they give you a reason why it was denied in the first place???

mgkdrgn
May 26, 2011, 09:39 PM
begs the question though, will he give back the trade to a guy who got denied?

:(
Not if it is his bound book ... and if it's in his shop for more than 24 hrs it -is- (or should be) in his bound book.

mgkdrgn
May 26, 2011, 09:42 PM
I need to wait and see what the stated reason is. Thinking back on the sale, the salesman was having a bad day all around, seemed detached and error prone, for all I know he told NICS my name is John Hinckley.
THAT is quite possible .. that the shop got something wrong when supplying the info to NICS. That is one of the reasons I prefer the Web Based check ... I PRINT a copy of the provided info so there can be NO QUESTION of what was told to them.

bikemutt
May 27, 2011, 09:20 AM
"Did they give you a reason why it was denied in the first place???"

Yes, they wrote it was due to prohibitive information. That was factually correct except the person who was prohibited was not me. That person was definitely prohibited due to an extensive felony record. In the end that made it easy to correct the record since we don't share identical fingerprints, amongst other things.

And contrary to my original thought that I'd have to run around and visit various LEAs and pay a lawyer, I simply wrote a respectful and clear letter to NICS stating why I believe my record was inaccurate and included my fingerprint card. They apparently have seen fit to agree, a decision I'm delighted with.

I will say though, had I not obtained a copy of my FBI record this would have been more challenging, or at least taken longer. There was really nothing in the stated reason for denial that gave specifics, just "prohibited". One look at the record and it was plain to see the problem. I included a copy of the record with the incorrect information highlighted in my appeal. I believe this step was crucial since the prints I sent in match my prints, when this happens I don't believe NICS is obligated to go any further, it's case closed for them. Believing I had only one shot at this, I made sure to provide them with everything which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that my record is wrong and which, once corrected, is not that of a prohibited person.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but it may be helpful to someone in the future who ends up with an awkward denial.

Standing Wolf
May 27, 2011, 01:46 PM
Yeah, that's nuthin'. Just wait until these same helpful, highly skilled civil servants are in charge of your health care. You'll look back on these misadventures with deep, abiding fondness.

In full seriousness: we need to build penalties for feral government so-called "mistakes" into these processes. If we have to pay extra for making mistakes on IRS forms, why shouldn't the mighty crime fighters pay extra for mistaking us for criminals?

ErikO
May 27, 2011, 02:11 PM
I guess I just live in a fantasy world where the burden of proof should be on the government when they want to take something away. As in, we think you are a prohibited person, hang on, we will get back to you eventually, versus we will get back to you within [fill in the blank] days, and if we haven't finished our job, that's on us.

My bad, I should know by now never to insert logic into how the government works.

Actually, you are correct, Sir!

"(b) PERMANENT PROVISION- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by subsection (a)(1), is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 30 days after the Attorney General notifies licensees under section 103(d) of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act that the national instant criminal background check system is established, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, unless--

`(A) before the completion of the transfer, the licensee contacts the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of that Act;

`(B)(i) the system provides the licensee with a unique identification number; or

`(ii) 3 business days (meaning a day on which State offices are open) have elapsed since the licensee contacted the system, and the system has not notified the licensee that the receipt of a firearm by such other person would violate subsection (g) or (n) of this section; and

`(C) the transferor has verified the identity of the transferee by examining a valid identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(1) of this title) of the transferee containing a photograph of the transferee."

If the bolded part is true, then the NICS result is an Approve.

Yarddog
May 27, 2011, 02:17 PM
It Happens, Though most times i gets staighten out quicker In my case anyway PS Congrats & Good luck
Y/D

DenaliPark
May 27, 2011, 11:36 PM
And contrary to my original thought that I'd have to run around and visit various LEAs and pay a lawyer, I simply wrote a respectful and clear letter to NICS stating why I believe my record was inaccurate and included my fingerprint card. They apparently have seen fit to agree, a decision I'm delighted with.

While I'm happy for you, that they finally gave you permission to exercise your right to purchase/own/carry a firearm, I must say that I'd not be exactly delighted with their permission coming 106 days after they subjected you to the illegal instant check!

Personally, I'd be hopping mad, in fact I am hopping mad even thinking about this abomination of the 2nd. How does it feel to have been subjected to more scrutiny then your president was as he ran for the office? What an absolute outrage....BTW, I've seen more then one UPIN get denied....:fire:

bikemutt
May 28, 2011, 08:42 AM
While I'm happy for you, that they finally gave you permission to exercise your right to purchase/own/carry a firearm, I must say that I'd not be exactly delighted with their permission coming 106 days after they subjected you to the illegal instant check!

Personally, I'd be hopping mad, in fact I am hopping mad even thinking about this abomination of the 2nd. How does it feel to have been subjected to more scrutiny then your president was as he ran for the office? What an absolute outrage....BTW, I've seen more then one UPIN get denied....:fire:
I'm simply delighted they agreed with me that my record was inaccurate and they corrected the inaccuracy. I'm certainly not in the least bit happy about the ordeal, nor do I hold any hard feelings, my remaining life is too short for that.

The only mystery left in this whole mess for me is how on earth someone, somewhere, sitting at a computer, clicked a mouse adding another person's faulty record to mine. We have absolutely nothing in common, nothing. Just common sense should have been a red flag yelling "this can't be right". But, things like this happen I guess.

I just need that UPIN to work once to get the denied deal done. For obvious reasons I've become a FTF convert.

DenaliPark
May 28, 2011, 11:02 PM
I'm simply delighted they agreed with me that my record was inaccurate and they corrected the inaccuracy. I'm certainly not in the least bit happy about the ordeal, nor do I hold any hard feelings, my remaining life is too short for that.

The only mystery left in this whole mess for me is how on earth someone, somewhere, sitting at a computer, clicked a mouse adding another person's faulty record to mine. We have absolutely nothing in common, nothing. Just common sense should have been a red flag yelling "this can't be right". But, things like this happen I guess.

I just need that UPIN to work once to get the denied deal done. For obvious reasons I've become a FTF convert.

I don't know what you mean by FTF convert? Are you referencing private party sales? Regardless, instant checks that take 106 days only illustrate the intent of the hard core big government bureaucracy, it is sending a message everytime it infringes on one of the peasant class...

Owen Sparks
May 30, 2011, 05:29 PM
Again I ask:

If you were accused of murder you would not have to prove your innocents, the state would have to prove you guilty. How is it that the burden of proof falls on an individual who is trying to exercize a constitutional right in buying arms, the one and only item that the Constitution guarantees you the right to posess?

bikemutt
May 31, 2011, 05:11 PM
Just to bring closure to this, I picked up my new SP101 3" .357 today. The paperwork from NICS directed the FFL to someone higher up than the pit crew, she proceeded me right away, a first, lol.

I thanked the gun store manager for hanging in there all this time, we shared a hug fest :D

Thanks for the comments and support from the thread posters here as well, it helped me to endure the pain.

Case closed!

Resist Evil
May 31, 2011, 07:01 PM
I'd like to ask what a VAF and a UPIN are?

bikemutt
May 31, 2011, 07:46 PM
I'd like to ask what a VAF and a UPIN are?
VAF = Voluntary Appeal File. You give the FBI permission to keep information about you on file so they don't have to keep digging up the same information every time. Without a VAF they must destroy everything about the transaction after some period, 24 hours I think.

UPIN = The key to your VAF. Form 4473 has a field for UPIN which if provided takes NICS directly to your VAF.

Neither is a guarantee of a Proceed response, if they discover new prohibitive information they will Deny, and they will destroy the VAF so you get to start one all over again.

The most obvious reason I can imagine for seeking a VAF is someone with a very common name who is often delayed or denied. Or someone who had a prohibitive record and has been pardoned or had the crime vacated. And of course for unlucky slobs like myself.

Resist Evil
May 31, 2011, 08:19 PM
Thank you for such a complete explanation. I am glad that you had a successful resolution to your situation.

cpuckett812
June 2, 2011, 02:36 PM
Youre lucky they straightened it out so fast. I finally wrote my Congressman at the end of my 7 month ordeal with NICS. Id advise anyone wrongfully denied to do the same. Give them something constructive to do for a change

cpuckett812
June 2, 2011, 02:38 PM
What did the lawyer end up telling ya?

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