Which to get for a wood 10/22 with sling mount and good sights?


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Machine154
February 9, 2011, 05:52 PM
I have struggled getting Rifleman status at 2 Appleseed events with my SR-556, so I am thinking to get a 10/22. I need sling mounts and good iron sights. I like a wood gun. Do I get a sporter and change sights? Other options?

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AR27
February 9, 2011, 06:00 PM
After several configurations of my 10/22 including a target barrel I switched to what is pictured in the link and could not be happier. I got rifleman at an appleseed with ease. I would go with the original tech sights 100 over the replica M1


http://www.eabco.com/m1_carbine_ruger_1022_tribute.htm

sappyg
February 9, 2011, 07:05 PM
Welcome to THR machine154.

I've yet to shoot my first appleseed but I have put together my LTR. I get an inch plus or minus from the bench, depending on the ammo, at 25 meters.
The VQ hammer is coming in after about 1000 rounds and is breaking better for me now.
I like the TS sights. They are very much like my AR sights. maybe i could do better with a scope but earning a rifleman patch is secondary for me. It would be nice though.
Other than that my rifle is "bone" stock. :)
If I do poorly at appleseed I dought it will be the fault of my rifle.

henschman
February 9, 2011, 07:56 PM
A regular 10/22 carbine is the most common choice, and they work fine.

Get a set of Tech Sights. They are great. And when installed on the standard 10/22 carbine or Marlin 795, they have nice, easy 1 MOA clicks for both windage and elevation. I like the regular TS-100 sights personally.

If you go with the Ruger, get some sling studs for a wood stock... Uncle Mike's sells some. You have to drill out your stock and then screw them in. Get some 1 1/4" QD swivels. Make sure they are 1 1/4" instead of just 1", so you can use a GI web sling (M1 or M-14 issue) on it. Don't get the big, fat, square-shaped "mil spec" sling swivels... just the regular ones. The metal clip on the GI web sling doesn't fit well on the big thick ones.

Of course, get the aforementioned GI web sling. They are on the Appleseed Store for $12, or I think Tech Sights sells them too. You can find them on e-bay as well... just make sure you get real GI instead of a cheap reproduction.

It isn't a necessity, but a lot of folks like to modify the trigger in the 10/22, because the factory trigger is horrible. You can easiliy shoot Rifleman with it, but it does help to have a lighter-breaking one. I bought the volquartsen target hammer and auto bolt release combo when they were on sale on Midway... they are great. However, I re-used my factory springs... the ones VQ sends you do not provide a very positive trigger reset.

Another popular choice for an LTR is the Marlin 795. They are nice because you can build a good LTR for about a hundred bucks cheaper than the Ruger. Tech Sights makes sights for the Marlin as well. The Marlins come with sling studs already installed, so all you need is a set of 1 1/4" swivels and a GI web sling. The factory trigger is good to go... much better than a Ruger's.

Either one would be a good choice. It is definitely not a bad idea to get a .22 to practice with until you have the fundamentals down solid. You can learn the fundamentals just fine on a .22, without blowing all that dough on 5.56x45. Then once you've qualified with the .22, bring out the SR556 and prove you can do it with center fire, too. Maybe even take it to an event where they do full distance shooting.

You know the best thing about one of those LTR .22s... once you join up as an Instructor (which all Riflemen are invited to do), you can loan that .22 out at events, and help to create more Riflemen! I love my battle rifles, but my lowly .22s have done much more for the cause of Liberty than my M-1 or M1A could ever dream, by creating scores of new Riflemen, all of whom have the skills to go out and teach others. That's what it's all about.

henschman
Appleseed Shoot Boss and State Coordinator for Oklahoma

Usagi
February 9, 2011, 08:05 PM
If you really want the patch, the cheapest way is to get a Marlin 795 with tech sights (or scope), USGI Sling, and extra mags.



If you are dead-set on doing it with a 10/22, it can be done.
What you would NEED is:
- Tech Sights (or scope)
- Volquartsen hammer
- Volquartsen extractor
- Sling swivel studs, and a USGI Sling
- extra mags
- CCI mini mags, or similar ammo.
- Extended mag release

What you would also WANT to have:
- Target grade barrel
- Proper bedding


The Marlin is so much more accurate, and you need fewer additions, so it is a clear cut winner. I can understand wanting a rifle with wood and steel, instead of polymer and steel. I like the "feel" of my 10/22 better... but it just cannot shoot as good as the Marlin with a stock barrel.

At 25 yards, the Marlin is a sub-MOA gun, with bulk ammo (Federal Bulk, or Winchester bulk). At 25 yards, the 10/22 is about a 3-4 MOA gun with CCI.

The Marlin is also less picky about ammo. I've shot "Rifleman" scores with the Marlin using all kinds of ammo - including the infamous Remington Golden bullets, and Remington Thunderbolts. The Ruger pretty much has to have CCI's or better (mine is OK with Winchester Bulk).

LKB3rd
February 9, 2011, 08:35 PM
I shot rifleman with my 10/22 with tech sights, a Volquartsen hammer and "exact edge" extractor, and I bedded the barrel and receiver using a method I read over at rimfirecentral.com. It is a regular 10/22 not the target model, stock otherwise. Federal bulk pack ammo from Wal-mart.

henschman
February 9, 2011, 09:05 PM
Remember, Appleseed is not an equipment race... it is much more about the software than the hardware. Plenty of Rifleman's scores have been shot by a factory 10/22 with nothing more than a sling, and Tech Sights or a scope. I am confident I could pick up a Ruger set up like this and shoot Expert. I have done it many times.

If you can't shoot Rifleman with a 10/22, switching to a Marlin probably won't do it for you. You can build the most accurate, sub-MOA free floated heavy stainless barreled tack driver in the world, and you still won't shoot Expert with it unless you have solid fundamentals.

I will say that the Marlin will give you everything you need with a couple of more desireable features for less money than a 10/22. But really, it's whatever floats your boat.

Whatever you get, the important thing is to get it out in your bedroom or living room and DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE!!! Practice getting into a good position, relaxing into the sling, finding your NPOA, and shifting to put it on target. Check and double check it until every time you do you are right on target. Soon it will become musle memory for you to put your NPOA onto target. Frequently ou will plop down into position, check NOPA, and find it is already on target, or will be with just a minor tweak. Once you have that NPOA, dry fire BY THE NUMBERS, using proper trigger control.

Developing your own skills is all well and good, but the way to have a REAL impact on the future of this country is to go out and teach others what you have learned. Then they can do the same, and the cycle continues until we are once again a nation of Riflemen.

Machine154
February 9, 2011, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the great advice, guys. I have to say that I like the idea of having a better shooting stock gun and doing less to change it. I just wish the Marlin had better looks. I was disappointed to find that the sling mounts aren't 1.25" on the 10/22. I already have a USGI M14 sling ready. I am going to check into the Marlin some more.

jrp1416
February 9, 2011, 10:35 PM
Another option is to install a kit like the Archangel 556 kit on a 10/22, then install AR type iron sights. I prefer these to the standard iron sights on a 10/22.

Here's a link to a blog that talks about installing the kit and has a few pictures. I have done this with a 10/22 I got that was in some rough shape, and I like it.

www.gunworks.blogspot.com

Machine154
February 10, 2011, 12:16 AM
Alright, let me check my shopping list with you guys and hone in on some details:

-Marlin 795
-Extra Mags
-Tech Sights (they only list the TSM200 for Marlin?)
-1 1/4 sling swivels (uncle mikes got a bad MidwayUSA review for changing to more rounded design and China made, possible interference with the USGI sling, Talon apparently has a bad shape for the USGI, any other proven suggestions?)

Big_E
February 10, 2011, 01:03 AM
I attended an Appleseed a few months ago. I didn't shoot Rifleman, but I was close. I think some of it had to do with my equipment (Stock 10/22 w/ Tech sights) I was able to get a few good groups but later in the day my groups opened up and this was after getting my technique near perfect.

My barrel may have been very very dirty. But I also left the barrel band on and my stock isn't free floated so that was a detriment to accuracy. My 10/22 shoots great with Federal Auto Match you can get from Wal-Mart (probably my favorite .22 ammo now over Mini-Mags).

It has more to do with the shooter over equipment. The only guy I remember doing amazingly well was an AF Reserve Medic with a highly accurized 10/22 w/ scope. I got fatigued from shooting prone all day, my back started cramping up on me. Do a few minor upgrades to you 10/22 and just keep practicing. I'm going to get my barrel free floated and then "clean + shoot" till it gets consistent good groups w/o shooter error.

Appleseed shoots are a lot of fun and I learned a lot about technique. Plus the instructors said I had a lot of promise in my ability.

**Oh and my Uncle Mikes swivels are fine, they didn't interfere with my USGI sling at all.

Usagi
February 10, 2011, 03:08 AM
Alright, let me check my shopping list with you guys and hone in on some details:

-Marlin 795 Check
-Extra Mags at least 4 total (5 is better) - check
-Tech Sights (they only list the TSM200 for Marlin?) TSM200 is correct - check
-1 1/4 sling swivels (uncle mikes got a bad MidwayUSA review for changing to more rounded design and China made, possible interference with the USGI sling, Talon apparently has a bad shape for the USGI, any other proven suggestions?)
Uncle Mike's is perfectly fine (*I* happen to prefer Talon, and the "work around" where it snags some USGI slings is easy) - Check

Looks like you are about ready to go. :)

For those talking about Appleseed "not being a gear race" - this is technically true, but be careful. Not all gear is created equal. AS training is about marksmanship. An 8 MOA gun will cause more issues than it will cure. Some AR-15 conversion kits are 8 MOA guns. Some 10/22's are... :(

A good rule of thumb for the gear is 2 MOA. The M1 Garand as issued was about a 2 MOA gun, as were the M14 and the M16 with military ammo and setups. Since the Appleseed's AQT was designed around the old Army M1 marksmanship course of fire, it is reasonable to make a comparison here.

Some fundamental rifle characteristics of the old Army marksmanship test:
- 2 MOA rifle
- Semiauto rifle
- Easily reloadable rifle (enbloc clips or detachable box mags)
- Highly reliable rifle

Stray outside of these parameters, and the newer shooter is likely to find himself fighting the equipment as often as not. This would hinder learning. Since the OP is looking to spend a bit of money for a proper setup, it is reasonable for the OP to know what features are more desirable and why.

CraigC
February 10, 2011, 02:08 PM
The Marlins are good guns for the money but that is it. What you see is what you get. The Ruger is a better rifle, higher quality and a better design, which is why it costs more. It is far easier to clean, maintain and modifiy. Marlins tend to be slightly more accurate out of the box but the difference is nowhere near as extreme as has been stated. IMHO, the Marlins look and feel like a hundred dollar rifle. I know, a Marlin 60 was my first rifle and I've had it for 26yrs. The Ruger looks and feels like a $200-$300 rifle but the beauty is that it can be made to be anything you want it to be.

One must bear in mind that Usagi is always very critical of the Appleseed program and general and the Ruger 10/22 in particular. His experience with the Ruger is not typical and apparently the same for Marlins. Sub-MOA at 25yds from a hundred dollar rifle? Please. Get ready for comments that you have to spend several hundred dollars on the Ruger to make it equal the Marlin. :rolleyes:

Crowcifier666
February 10, 2011, 02:23 PM
You pick fights over here too, huh, Craig? :rolleyes:

451 Detonics
February 10, 2011, 02:30 PM
I have owned half a dozen Rugers, all would shoot well under an inch at 25 yards bone stock. If Usagi 's wouldn't do better than 3-4 inches at that range he had a bad rifle. Most 10/22s are not that ammo picky. There is a reason the 10/22 is the most used rifle at the Appleseed events. I would not base my choice on the opinion of a single net poster. I owned a brick and mortar gun shop for over 20 years, I sold hundreds of 10/22s and never had a customer report that bad level of accuracy out of them.

My rifle that is set up for Appleseed had Tech sights on it and a lightly stoned stock trigger. You can send your trigger pack to the guys at Hornet and it back tuned and ready to drop in your rifle for less than the cost of many parts kits.

http://www.hornetproducts.com/ViewProduct.asp?ModelNumber=TGA-RBS

I did add a M1 Carbine stock to my 10/22...wasn't needed for Appleseed but I really love my M1Carbine and this feels just like it and is much cheaper to practice with. The Ruger is the upper rifle.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/rifles/rugerm1both.jpg

AR27
February 10, 2011, 04:14 PM
The Marlins are good guns for the money but that is it. What you see is what you get. The Ruger is a better rifle, higher quality and a better design, which is why it costs more. It is far easier to clean, maintain and modifiy. Marlins tend to be slightly more accurate out of the box but the difference is nowhere near as extreme as has been stated. IMHO, the Marlins look and feel like a hundred dollar rifle. I know, a Marlin 60 was my first rifle and I've had it for 26yrs. The Ruger looks and feels like a $200-$300 rifle but the beauty is that it can be made to be anything you want it to be.

One must bear in mind that Usagi is always very critical of the Appleseed program and general and the Ruger 10/22 in particular. His experience with the Ruger is not typical and apparently the same for Marlins. Sub-MOA at 25yds from a hundred dollar rifle? Please. Get ready for comments that you have to spend several hundred dollars on the Ruger to make it equal the Marlin. :rolleyes:
I agree with craig, I dont know what usagi is talking about. I get under 1 MOA with my 10/22 at 40 yards quite often. It has tech sights and no fancy trigger/bedding mods. Maybe the shooter is to blame.:rolleyes:

CraigC
February 10, 2011, 04:35 PM
You pick fights over here too, huh, Craig?
You still think a braided cord sling is "just as good" as a V-TAC???

Just go over to the Appleseed forum on RFC and read Usagi's posts.

henschman
February 10, 2011, 04:44 PM
The course of fire for the AQT we use was actually used with the M1903 and M1917, as well as the M1 and M-14. It is easily doable with a bolt action with stripper clips (we let you load 5 and 5 instead of 2 and 8 on the forced reload stages). I have done it with a Nagant and a K98.

The smallest targets are simulated 400 yard silhouettes, which are 5 MOA wide. As long as you can keep your rounds in the black on all the targets, you are very likely to shoot Expert. Almost any properly functioning rifle should be able to shoot expert if you do your part.

Usagi
February 10, 2011, 05:29 PM
The course of fire for the AQT we use was actually used with the M1903 and M1917, as well as the M1 and M-14.

This statement is not entirely accurate. The AQT developed by "Fred" for Appleseed is substantially similar to the Army / USMC course of fire for the M1 and M14 (I hear the USMC does the same these days with the M16).

But - and this is a big "but" - The course of fire for the 1903 and 1917 were substantially different. Here's a link (http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/1902-1906_military_matches.pdf) to those rules. Main difference was timing - there was essentially a lot more time when the bolt action was used.

The Appleseed AQT can be done with a bolt, but is certainly not designed to be shot with a bolt. That said, there are folks who've shot rifleman with a bolt. My hat's off to them - that is quite an accomplishment. This is not for a new shooter, to be sure.


You pick fights over here too, huh, Craig?
He seems to like to follow me around and do that... accusing me of "bashing" - when really he simply fails to read my posts for whatever reason. Aye caramba! But, go look at the posts on rfc and see for yourself.

And this is the High Road, so instead of meeting criticism and possible personal insults with more of the same, I'll turn it around, and offer facts. These facts should help the OP, and any other shooters looking for detailed, accurate information:
---
See, the OP came in here and asked for folks' experience with the 10/22 and for suggestions. My suggestion, simply, would be to get the less expensive, more accurate Marlin. My experience is that *I* can shoot 1 MOA with the Marlin at 25 meters from "field positions" (like Appleseed uses) - but my 10/22 can only manage 3 MOA at 25 meters (This verified from prone and from a rest).

Did I get a "dud" - possibly. But I've never seen a stock 10/22 shoot rifleman, except in my own hands. I actually enjoy training with is, as it imparts a greater margin for error, and forces me to be closer to perfect.

Further comparison:
Trigger:
- To make the Ruger's trigger more manageable, one needs either gunsmithing skills (to stone the hammer), or to purchase an aftermarket hammer.
- To lighten the Marlin trigger, one needs only clip a single coil from a spring, and loosen another spring.

Sling:
- The Ruger must typically be drilled for studs. The Marlin comes with studs installed.

Tech sights / scope:
- 6 on one, half-a-dozen on another.

Reliability:
- The Ruger is known to be highly sensitive to ammo. Most, however, will eat CCI mini mags.
- Marlins are known to be more accurate with bulk ammo than Rugers are with higher priced ammo.

Rifle weight:
- The Ruger has real wood, and feels a bit heavier (though not heavy). I prefer the weight and size of the Ruger. FWIW - I am 6'2" and about 250.
- The Marlin has a polymer stock, and is very lightweight. It is only marginally heavier than my son's Crickett. My wife and son much prefer the lighter, smaller Marlin.

Accuracy:
- The Marlin is capable of 1/4 of an inch at 25 meters. This is 1 MOA.
- The Ruger (with good ammo) will keep 3/4 inch to 1 inch at 25 meters. This is 1 MOA.
* Based on the comments of several responses, it would seem several posters are confusing 1 MOA with 1 inch groups. This is not the case. Read this for a detailed explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_angle).

Simply put - 1 MOA is:
1/4" at 25 yards
1" at 100 yards
3" at 300 yards.

With the given that the Ruger is a 3-4 MOA gun, and the Marlin is, at worst, a 1 MOA gun, it is to the shooter's advantage to use the Marlin, as shot inaccuracy cannot be attributed as much to the rifle.

Since most Appleseed training is done at 25 meters, the Marlin's inherent accuracy would put a given round within a quarter-inch. The Ruger would be at a full (or nearly a full) inch - yielding more uncertainty as to possible source of shooter error on the shot fired.

CraigC
February 10, 2011, 07:10 PM
Based on the comments of several responses, it would seem several posters are confusing 1 MOA with 1 inch groups.
Not from where I'm sitting.


With the given that the Ruger is a 3-4 MOA gun, and the Marlin is, at worst, a 1 MOA gun, it is to the shooter's advantage to use the Marlin, as shot inaccuracy cannot be attributed as much to the rifle.
This is the crux of the argument. You are asserting that every 10/22 shoots like your dud.


I also have to firmly disagree that the 10/22 "needs" the equipment you say it does. Marlins are not exactly coming out of the box with a 2lb trigger. It 'may' be marginally better but a $40 VQ hammer gets it to roughly 2.5lbs. Much better than the factory Marlin trigger. My 26yr old example is almost 5lbs. Factory 10/22's will be around that. Big deal, I shot a 242 with a 4.5lb trigger. Nor does it 'need' an extractor. Nor does it 'need' swivel studs. Most 10/22's come with at least one swivel stud, many come with both. Nor does it "need" premium ammo and an extended magazine release. Hell, LTR has a match chambered Clark barrel and I still shoot bulk with it. So no, they are not picky about ammo. You keep repeating all this nonsense and you keep getting corrected, yet your posts remain the same. Like I and countless others have said, your 10/22 experience is not typical.

Following you around? You might take note that I have been a member here for five years to your one. That I've been on RFC for nine years to your one and a half. Which also, apparent in your early posts, reflects how long you've been shooting. Yet you seem to think you know better than the veteran shooters who designed and conduct the program. One might also notice that you are usually by yourself in these arguments. :rolleyes:

sappyg
February 10, 2011, 07:45 PM
oh my :eek:

Usagi
February 10, 2011, 08:14 PM
Craig, I will assume that you are not intending to start anything, but instead that you really don't understand what I've posted. Since an explanation will help answer similar questions to what the OP posed, I'll be happy to elaborate.

Mods, if you feel this sort of response is out of line, please notify me, and I'll happily refrain from further elaboration on these misunderstandings.


Not from where I'm sitting.
So you didn't see other posters who looked to mistake MOA for inches? Let me quote the phrase:
I have owned half a dozen Rugers, all would shoot well under an inch at 25 yards bone stock. If Usagi 's wouldn't do better than 3-4 inches at that range he had a bad rifle.
Craig, Read my post - I said my Ruger holds 3-4 MOA at 25 yards. That is the same as saying .75" - 1" at 25 yards. This quote states 3-4 inches. It is possible that the person posting this did not read my post, but it looks to be a case of mistake between MOA and inches.


Next statement:
I also have to firmly disagree that the 10/22 "needs" the equipment you say it does.
I stated the "need" was: Tech-Sights, hammer, extractor. I also suggest, for convenience, an extended mag release and auto bolt-release. MANY others in this thread and other threads suggest the same. By adding these parts, the functionality of the 10/22 becomes the same as a Marlin 795.

Next part:
Marlins are not exactly coming out of the box with a 2lb trigger. It 'may' be marginally better but a $40 VQ hammer gets it to roughly 2.5lbs. Much better than the factory Marlin trigger.
Nobody said Marlins came with a 2 lb trigger. But a simple snip of the hammer spring (1 coil, only) and a weakening of the return spring will take the Marlin to about 5 lbs.
OTOH, for the Ruger, by your own statement, it takes a $40 hammer to get there... in lieu of significant gunsmithing skills to stone the hammer oneself.

Next part:
My 26yr old example is almost 5lbs. Factory 10/22's will be around that.
Last I checked, Ruger factory triggers were around 10 lbs. My BIL's was, my SIL's was, A fellow shooter at my last AS had the same. All of these rifles were purchased in the last year. If one gets lucky and gets a 5 lb trigger, then great! But look at reviews online - it just ain't happening.

Next part:
Nor does it 'need' swivel studs. Most 10/22's come with at least one swivel stud, many come with both.
Have you been to Wal Mart lately? Seriously, I have never seen a factory 10/22 with studs. I've seen used ones at gun shows with studs, that's about it.

Next part:
Nor does it "need" premium ammo and an extended magazine release. Hell, LTR has a match chambered Clark barrel and I still shoot bulk with it. So no, they are not picky about ammo.
Again, I simply suggested (as many others do) that an extended release is helpful. Of course, the 795 already has one, and that was the crux of my point.
You say your Clark chambered barrel is not picky, and does not require match ammo. That's really good! However, STOCK barrels are not always so friendly. This is not just my issue - anybody with Google and 5 minutes can find countless others saying the same. Heck, the rimfire site has an entire section dedicated to 10/22 and the modification of the rifle. One whole category is barrels. More Marlins have been sold than 10/22's - so one must conclude with logic that the only reason the 10/22 barrel is so easily upgraded is because it needs it!

Final part:
Following you around? You might take note that I have been a member here for five years to your one. That I've been on RFC for nine years to your one and a half. Which also, apparent in your early posts, reflects how long you've been shooting. <personal attacking drivel removed as point is already been made.>
3 points:
1) I never said I've been on these sites (and others) longer than you. Just said your posts seem to follow a pattern - they come right after my posts and often look suspiciously like quasi-personal attacks. At the least, they indicate you either do not read my posts in their entirety, or that you place little value on reading comprehension.
2) I began shooting in 1981. I joined several shooting sites over a period between May 2008, and the present. Prior to that, I worked solely on improving my shooting. Now, I'd like to help others when and were possible.
3) As far as being "by myself" in "these arguments" - I see others that suggest the Marlin over the Ruger. Heck, freedom of choice is one of the last freedoms we can truly enjoy (and it is becoming more limited, too :() Not quite sure what you mean by this statement?:confused:


But please, go on trying to distort my words. Try to pick an internet fight (won't happen). I'm bowing out of this one, unless the OP has another question, or another poster has a related question.

AR27
February 10, 2011, 11:20 PM
this thread turned out to be pretty interesting with craig vs usagi :)

Machine154
February 10, 2011, 11:35 PM
Thank you all for your input. I bought my rifle today. At the expense of looks, I chose to go with the Marlin. It wasn't from a single poster, but a gathering of information and the disdain of modifications. This seems to also concur with the Appleseed site and the shooting boss above, which get extra weight.

The only thing I have left to figure out is which sling swivels I will get. I'm going to bring my sling with me to Gander Mountain and see if they have any there so I can confirm it is straight and round where the sling clip attaches to the rear.

Again, thanks guys.

Big_E
February 11, 2011, 12:14 AM
The Marlin's are good guns. I just don't care for the mags. I was thinking about getting a Papoose and trying Appleseed with that, but the lack of forearm and sling stud distance might cause some issues. Plus, I would probably have to buy more tech sights for it. :rolleyes:

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