Sig 220 vs SW 1911 Sc


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Texasred
February 12, 2011, 04:09 PM
As the title implies what would be a better carry gun? I carry a Ruger LCR 75% of the time, so this would be for the weekend and would be practicing on a weekly basis. I handled both of these at the shows this weekend. I haven't shot a Sig yet.
It seems to me that:

Smith 1911
Pros:
familiarity
slim
magazines are cheap
lifetime warranty
seemed lighter
Cons:
scandium, don't know how this will hold up
Single action

Sig 220
Pros:
Double action
may be more reliable out of the box(based on other 1911 exp.)
seemed a tiny bit more solid than the Smith
Cons:
more squarish less sleek
mags are more

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Fuzzy7
February 12, 2011, 04:15 PM
Both are great firearms. 1911sc flatter and lighter. Need to decide which mechanism of action you are the most confortable with, single action with manual safety, or a double action.

420Stainless
February 12, 2011, 04:20 PM
I didn't vote since I have no experience with either. However, I know which one I want. The 1911sc.

1858
February 12, 2011, 05:16 PM
what would be a better carry gun?

I don't have a S&W 1911SC but I do have a similar 1911 with a "bobtail" frame (Ed Brown SFC), and I have a bunch of P220s including a P220 Carry. The 1911 is dimensionally less "bulky", no doubt about it. The weight of a P220 or P220 Carry and the S&W are basically the same. Magazine prices aren't that different but the P220 would be cheaper so you'd have a bunch of money left over to buy magazines if you choose a P220. Reliability is always a concern with any defensive pistol and I suspect that a P220 will function more reliably than the S&W with a wider range of ammunition. That said, 1911s aren't rocket science and it's not hard to make them reliable with decent ammunition, particularly if you use any sort of RN or RNFP bullet, jacketed or lead. Another thing to think about is how you'd carry the 1911 or the P220. I imagine it'll be condition one which may or may not be an issue for you.

My vote would be for a P220 Carry but then again, I bought a similar 1911 as a carry pistol. Ultimately, you might want to get both.

Texasred
February 12, 2011, 05:21 PM
yeah the manual safety worries me as it's not so instinctive and probably will conflict with my revolver instincts.

1858
February 12, 2011, 05:51 PM
yeah the manual safety worries me as it's not so instinctive and probably will conflict with my revolver instincts.

If you're very familiar with a DA revolver, a P220 Carry DAK would be an easy transition for you. I've shot a SIG with a DAK trigger and can see why many like that trigger on a concealed carry pistol.

Skpotamus
February 12, 2011, 06:36 PM
I own a scandium S&W 1911. Great gun. Fed everything I've thrown into it with no problems (including semi wadcutters). Far more accurate than I am.

The downside to the sigs, IMHO, is the Double action trigger. You have two triggers to learn instead of one. You can solve that by getting one of their DAK triggers though. HOwever, it'll never be as light and nice as a 1911 trigger.

In recent years, it seems like sigs had some problems with their 220's. I was working at a gun shop and had 4 out of 4 I sold come back with problems. (never had any of the other caliber sigs come back). Dunno if they got that taken care of yet. Personally, I had a sig 220 I bought about 3 years ago. I couldn't hit anything with it. At 7 yards keeping all the rounds on a paper plate slowfire wasn't possible. Gave it to my father in law to shoot (he shot a sig 226 competitively) and he couldn't get it to group. Sent it back to sig, they replaced the barrel. Group sizes were nice, but kept having problems with feeding after that. Sent it back again, and it came back functioning flawlessly. Never did trust it though, so I sold it off.

Magazine wise, chip mccormick power mags run about $10 a pop cheaper than the sig mags. Wilson combat mags are 3 or 4 dollars cheaper.

The sig should run you a couple hundred less.

Manual safety, well, your firing grip for a 1911 should have your thumb resting on the manual safety, so it should be a non issue.

Personally, of the two, I'd carry the S&W. I've owned 2 s&w 1911s and both have functioned flawlessly out of the box.

YMMV.

9mmepiphany
February 12, 2011, 08:31 PM
I've had both

the S&W 1911Sc
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_0850.jpg

...and the Sig 220 (wearing the rubber grips, the white one is a 220ST)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_1267.jpg

I got them a few years back for $500 each...but it was at a clearance sale

The downside to the sigs, IMHO, is the Double action trigger. You have two triggers to learn instead of one.
I know they used to teach it that way, but I thought modern training had gotten away from that. The first DA shot from the holster is no slower of less accurate than the SA trigger on a 1911. With some instruction (someone telling you how it is done), the DA action first shot is often more accurate and easier to accomplish.

Magazine wise, chip mccormick power mags run about $10 a pop cheaper than the sig mags. Wilson combat mags are 3 or 4 dollars cheaper.
I'm not sure where you are getting your CMC mags, but I'm paying about the same for my CMC PowerMags (just about the best out there) as for my ACT-Mags for my 220.

The big difference for me with these guns is that the Sig offer more tactile feed back for the first shot (margin of safety under stress) and more reliable function with less care

I was very happy with my 1911Sc, but I wouldn't usually choose it over a Sig 220 for carry...but then I wore the 220 as a duty gun for many years (it replaced my Colt Commander)

Skpotamus
February 12, 2011, 09:56 PM
Not tried the novak mags in the sigs. I was using factory. Anyways, chip mccormick Power mags can be had for around $20. If the novaks are around that for the sig that's a good deal.

It is possible to train yourself for the two trigger pulls (DA/SA). However, I've NEVER seen anyone get it down as fast as a single trigger, be it DA, or SA. Most people I see send the DA shot wide, then start hitting well with the SA trigger. Occasionally you run across people that hit well with the DA trigger, then pull their first SA shot. .

Either way, having two distinct trigger pulls (12-14lb DA, 3-4lb SA) vs one is more complicated and a bit harder to learn with no real positive to it at all.

That's been my experience as a firearms instructor for the last 7 years, as always YMMV.

CZ57
February 12, 2011, 10:08 PM
To answer your question about alloys, Scandium is between aluminum and titanium and therefore stronger than aluminum. I like the S&Ws with scandium frames.;)

cheygriz
February 12, 2011, 10:25 PM
The "problem" of converting from the long heavy first double action shot to the short light subsequent single action shot isn't a problem at all.

It's a myth. An old wives tale! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Anyone can learn it the same way you learn anything else in the shooting world. PRACTICE :p

9mmepiphany
February 12, 2011, 10:38 PM
Not tried the novak mags in the sigs. I was using factory. Anyways, chip mccormick Power mags can be had for around $20. If the novaks are around that for the sig that's a good deal.
I think that was about what I paid for mine. The Act-Mag marked Novak is about $20, the ones without the Novak marking are about a dollar less

It is possible to train yourself for the two trigger pulls (DA/SA). However, I've NEVER seen anyone get it down as fast as a single trigger, be it DA, or SA. Most people I see send the DA shot wide, then start hitting well with the SA trigger. Occasionally you run across people that hit well with the DA trigger, then pull their first SA shot.
I gather you hadn't seen Ernest Langdon do it when he took the IDPA National Championship with his Sig 220ST shooting against a field of 1911s in CDP or Bruce Gray (USPSA GM) who used to do it when he shot for first H&K and then SigArms in USPSA Production. Bruce does say that the DA first shot is only as fast and accurate was the SA out to about 25 yards, he thinks he shot a bit faster at 50 yards when he was running the 1911s he used to build.

Either way, having two distinct trigger pulls (12-14lb DA, 3-4lb SA) vs one is more complicated and a bit harder to learn with no real positive to it at all.
A DA/SA trigger is only DA for the first shot and that shot is fired as the arms reach extension so there is no difference in time to that first shot.

The DA trigger press is performed the same as the SA trigger press, just over a longer distance. At least that is how I teach it. We usually cover it during the morning of the first day and students don't have much problem with it for the rest of the weekend. We do teach it as part of the push out from High Ready as the added motion helps prevent jerking or snatching at the trigger

Bruce Gary put it best when he said:
Inarguably in my mind, the DA first shot gives the shooter a lot of tactile feedback and lends some increased assurance against a negligent discharge. Yet, from the years I spent training with DA/SA pistols in Production Division (first for HK abd then for SIGARMS), I know that I can drive that action type as well as the 1911's I used to carry.


That's been my experience as a firearms instructor for the last 7 years, as always YMMV.
It does seem to vary a bit from Bruce's during his 30+ years of competing and instructing or mine in 28+ years in LE...granted I've only been managing the DA trigger correctly for the last 10

1858
February 12, 2011, 11:48 PM
Texasred, are you thinking of the DA/SA trigger or DAK trigger? I was under the impression that you're interested in the DAK trigger given your revolver background.


The downside to the sigs, IMHO, is the Double action trigger. You have two triggers to learn instead of one.

I've never had a problem with SIG's DA/SA trigger. I shoot a SIG P220 Combat and Kimber 1911 in USPSA matches and manage to go back and forth between the two without any problems. In December last year, I competed in a steel challenge match with my SIG P220 Combat. I had a number of runs in the low 3's and that was drawing and hitting five steel plates (ending with the stop plate). I'm new to competitive pistol matches and the fastest shooters (production, limited or single stack) were in the high 2's, but they've been doing this for years. I had no problems making the first hit using DA and then hitting the remaining targets using SA. With practice I don't see why I can't get into the 2's as well.

As for SIGs, new or old, being unreliable ... not in my experience. I have five P220s, two P225s and a P239, all with DA/SA triggers. They all work, all the time. They'll strip, chamber and fire just about anything and they're accurate.

Here's a typical stage.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/pistols/ipsc/12_18_10/stage4.jpg

Skpotamus
February 13, 2011, 06:27 AM
You'll find a LOT more people who have problems with the trigger transition than not in my experience. Ernest Langdon does a great job shooting that DA/SA trigger, and always comes up in these threads about DA/SA. However, he also tuned his trigger so that the DA pull was a whopping 6.5 pounds. The single action pull was 2.75 pounds. He also tig welded some other parts to the gun. Article here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_170_28/ai_n6040300/ The trigger is so easy to master that the guy used as a prime example lightened his up to around half of what the factory trigger is (sigs spec rating and trigger pull gauges seem to differ quite a bit). To my knowledge, I think Ernest Langdon is the only man to win a IDPA National Championship with a sig.

Bruce Gray posted on the sig forum about why he liked the DA/SA trigger, it had a lot to do with the nerve damage he has in his shooting hand and fear of ND's as well as his ability to deactivate the safeties of the 1911's he used to shoot. http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4400015042

http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/220/220.htm Here is an article talking about the transition between the two triggers on their test gun (14.5lbs and 3.75lbs) "As a consequence, double-tap group dispersion will be atrocious for all but the most experienced shooters. "

If you practice enough, you'll get good with the DA/SA trigger, however, if you have a gun that has a single trigger (SA, DAO, DAK, LEM, etc), you can get better faster IME, YMMV. If you like the trigger and can shoot it well, great! I was merely trying to point out a potential issue with someone new to the gun. I recommend dry firing it in the store in both configs and see if you like it.

CZ223
February 13, 2011, 09:23 AM
The S&W 1911, or any other lightweight 1911 will be much lighter and easier to carry. I was looking at the Sig 220 compact just yesterday. When I realized it only held the same number of rounds as my much lighter Tac Pro II, all I could do was wonder was why would I want the extra bulk and weight.

The Lone Haranguer
February 13, 2011, 10:10 AM
For a closer comparison you should consider the SAO version of the P220. :) They are closely comparable in height, length and weight, but you will probably find the slender, rounded 1911 more comfortable to carry, as well as having a slightly better SA trigger. It is a tough choice, though.

9mmepiphany
February 13, 2011, 02:14 PM
To my knowledge, I think Ernest Langdon is the only man to win a IDPA National Championship with a sig.
Do you think it might have anything to do with the rule change to eliminate the 220ST from shooting in CDP?

I thought your claim was that no one could shoot a DA/SA pistol to place both shots on target well. Just reading through this thread would lead one to believe that there are whole legions of shooters who compete in IDPA SSP and ESP as well as USPSA Production who don't have the same experience

Bruce Gray posted on the sig forum about why he liked the DA/SA trigger, it had a lot to do with the nerve damage he has in his shooting hand and fear of ND's as well as his ability to deactivate the safeties of the 1911's he used to shoot. http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc...5/m/4400015042
I'm glad your posted the link to the article...he wasn't saying that he couldn't work the safety, he was saying that the SAO trigger ran a higher risk of a ND or Unintentional discharge because of his conditioned response of breaking the shot as the gun came on target (he is a long time competitor and only recently started carrying as a LEO) and the lack of tactile feedback that it offers. He can still run them, he just doesn't get the feedback from the trigger that he feels is needed in a defensive situation for trigger control.

He is carry a SigPro (the economy Sig) as a duty gun and has a much confidence in it as his beloved 1911s or tuned Sig 226s

http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/220/220.htm Here is an article talking about the transition between the two triggers on their test gun (14.5lbs and 3.75lbs) "As a consequence, double-tap group dispersion will be atrocious for all but the most experienced shooters. "

I've read that article before...it is over 20 years old. I'd like to think that our training has advanced a bit since then. The fact that he talks about the Double-Tap as if it were still a valid technique should tell you a lot about the article

You'll find a LOT more people who have problems with the trigger transition than not in my experience.
I've found a lot of people who can't shoot a 1" group at 7 yards and who don't believe that they can shoot 5 shots a second too.

This doesn't mean we have to accept that. The hardest hurdle for most folks is accepting/knowing that it can be done and then being shown how to do it. It's like saying that folks can't split a playing card edgewise, with a handgun, from 5 yards away. It is a parlor trick, but it is also a demonstration of correct trigger management after a two day class

zoom6zoom
February 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
I've carried both the 1911 and the 220. Firmly in the SIG camp now, more reliable and I prefer the DA/SA with decocker.

Ankeny
February 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
The DA/SA, safe action, SA discussions can go back and forth, forth and back, forever. In visiting with many LEO instructors through the years, most agree it is easier to get a new shooter up to speed with an action type that is the same from shot to shot. As far as the Smith vs. the Sig, pick the one you like and practice.

1858
February 13, 2011, 03:38 PM
The S&W 1911, or any other lightweight 1911 will be much lighter and easier to carry.

The S&W 1911SC weighs 29.7oz .... a SIG P220 Carry with an empty mag weighs 30.4oz so they're not that different in weight. The 1911 is definitely a sleeker package though.

Prion
February 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
I've found the da/sa trigger very friendly with a bit of practice.

I just draw, fire three rounds, first shot da obviously, decock, holster, repeat.

I also dry fire in da mode.

I was surprised how quickly I got it dialed and I have no safety to think about.

Both are very nice guns but I'd carry my P220 before my Valor.

Ala Dan
February 13, 2011, 07:37 PM
both are great firearms, I probably would chose the P220 for one reason; the
DA first shot capability~! ;) :D

rellascout
February 13, 2011, 08:18 PM
Which one do you shoot better?

Whichever one that is is the right one for you. They both are solid platforms and are capable of better accuracy and reliability then most shooters.

Good luck tell us which one you choose.

SwampWolf
February 14, 2011, 09:37 PM
Take Your Pick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

both are great firearms, I probably would chose the P220 for one reason; the
DA first shot capability~!

I agree with Ala Dan. I have and like both but carry the 220 because I prefer the first shot da capability.

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