Anti-gunners: Simple ignorance, wilfull ignorance, or denial (in politics)?


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Teufelhunden
January 3, 2004, 11:34 AM
I had an interesting experience with a friend a couple of days ago. She lives in NY city, and had come down to my house in South Georgia with my best friend for a couple of days before the New Year. She is anti, and my best friend owns a couple of handguns (encouraged by me a few years ago).

My best friend and I were attempting to educate, or at least expose our anti friend to firearms since she has some pretty strong opinions for someone who hasn't ever even seen a gun. To put it in perspective, her firearms knowledge is so lacking, that she (until a few days ago) thought that the entire cartridge went downrange, brass and all, when you pull the trigger. I don't mock her for that, but it is useful for showing how ignorant she is of firearms. When we disassembled the weapon and placed the parts on the mattress next to her, she ran, shrieking, from the room. Needless to say, such a reaction surprised my best friend and I.

That female friend is an educator--she teaches 1st graders in NY city, and as such, I would have thought she'd place value on firsthand experience and education in all areas. Her reaction showed that even in the prescence of two men she considers brothers and trusts, she wilfully maintains her ignorance of what they were trying to show her. My wife convinced me to just let it go, but I am still amazed that someone would rather hold on to their misconceptions and maintain their ignorance rather than safely being shown that guns are not evil entities, they do not 'go off' on their own, and they are simply mechanical devices with no will of their own.

I consider her reaction to be reaction to be initially simple ignorance, as she had never had an opportunity to be exposed to firearms in any manner, and later on, wilfull ignorance, as she had the opportunity to educate herself on the matter, but chose not to.

Her reaction is, on a small scale, how I see political gun-grabbers to operate. A great gripe of theirs is how the firearms industry cosmetically altered some weapons to 'sneak them in' under the AWB. They make this complaint without considering what they are truly saying, as such a statement is a de-facto argument that the AWB does not ban anything BUT cosmetic features.

So have people like Feinstein and Schumer never been exposed to someone like the constituancy here, who would be willing to educate and erase misconceptions fostered by Hollywood and yes-men?
-or-
Have they had the opportunity to hear it true, but either fear the topic or the truth too much and turned away the knowledge and people that would better equip them to intelligently legislate on such matters?
-or-
Have they been educated, know the truth, and are simply personally biased against our interpretation of the 2nd? They've proven they see a use for firearms; IIRC, Diane Feinstein has a CCW. Is it that they see no need for the general populace to be armed?

Personally, I find it terrifying that someone such as my friend has such political motivation and makes the effort to get out and vote, but simply won't educate herself on the issues on which she is voting. I suppose though, that she isn't probably all that different from a lot of people...she votes with how she 'feels' as opposed to voting the issues.

-Teuf, continuing down that cynical aging road to being the crotchetiest 25 year old in Georgia.

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Linux&Gun Guy
January 3, 2004, 12:00 PM
Take apart a clock; showing her the gears and springs. Then ask her if the clock can tell time when its taken apart. Then take the gun apart and perhaps she will see the conection.You would think a teacher would want to learn but I guess no one should learn about evil death guns:rolleyes:

Pilgrim
January 3, 2004, 12:19 PM
My soon-to-be ex-wife is terrified of snakes. Being surprised by one will send her into blind, panic inspired flight. Once we went into a pet store, she ahead of me, where she came face to face with a large boa constrictor being held by the store owner. She virtually ran up my chest, over my head, and down my back in her terror and her strong desire to get out of there. As I hadn't yet entered the store, I had no idea what terrified her so. She didn't stop running until she got to the middle of the parking lot.

I was stunned by her flight and asked her what was wrong. She couldn't even tell me. All she could say was, " Ss-ss-ss-ss!"

Another time she was in the backyard when I heard her scream, "Bruce, get your gun! Get your gun!." The object of her terror was a two foot long garden snake.

She has never been able to explain her fear of snakes. She won't even watch them on television.

It appears your friend may be like my soon-to-be ex. If she can't give you a valid reason for her fear, her problem is deep seated and I'm afraid it will take the skills of some very competent "shrinks" to figure out. In any event, I suggest you forget about educating your friend unless she shows some desire to conquer her fear.

Pilgrim

Mark Tyson
January 3, 2004, 12:29 PM
Once again we get to play armchair psychiatrists . . .

http://www.alibris.com/images/subjects/features/authors/freud.jpg

This fear of guns is probably learned by repeated exposure to negative firearms images in the media, including the association of guns with murder and other crime. This is reinforced by the occasional misinformation from the Brady bunch or an anti-gun politician(also heard through the media).

The cure is to gradually introduce the poor person to firearms. Rather than disassemble a real weapon in front of her, first show her a book or a manual explaining all the parts of a gun, ammunition, and explaining how the gun operates.

Another possibility, however, is that she had a negative experience with a firearm in the past. she or someone close to her could have been injured or killed by a criminal/irresponsible person using a gun. If that's the case I don't think there's anything you can do to change her mind.

El Tejon
January 3, 2004, 12:37 PM
Dr. Tejon sez [puts on tweed jacket, lights pipe and calls female grad student assistant], "they call them Eloi for a reason, sir. It is part of their culture to live in fear and submission."

ravinraven
January 3, 2004, 01:47 PM
Pardon my poor singing.

Let us see. The union school teacher who was indoctrinated by other union school teachers who were indoctrina......... Well. Is the problem coming into focus?

No government school indoctrination knave dares to break her/his programming by attempting to learn anything real.

One way to help straighten out this mess is to someway do away with this intellectual incest caused by students who graduate from a gov't indoctrination center and go to another one disguised as a "teacher's college" and then go for a job in a government indoctrination center without ever having spent a minute in the real world contemplating a real problem.

And anyone who is anti- any irem in the BoR is anti-liberty and is secretly waiting to be "liberated" by some low-life such at Hitlary.

rr

Hutch
January 3, 2004, 02:12 PM
Hmmmm.... fascinating.

I believe it's more a combination of factors. She has a deeply held belief, faith, if you will, in the intrinsic evil of firearms. At some level, she feels compelled to defend her faith from observable facts that could undermine it. In that regard, she is willfully ignorant, but it's in service to her Higher Conciousness. Her beliefs are one of the fundamental building blocks of her self image. Threaten the belief, threaten her self image. She just yells "SNAKE!!!" and are-you-in-in-oh-eff-tee. The only changes that could be wrought would be 1) She is verrrrrry gradually educated, and can incorporate this new awareness, or 2) She has the "Saul on the road to Damascus" experience, brought about by a sudden, urgent, and immediate need of a gun (or friendly gun-wielder) for her own defense. Frankly, neither is likely, unless she falls in love with a gunner.

Regarding the various devil-spawned politicians, most base their view of gun-control on what plays well with their constituency. There are a few who have attained a national spotlight with their views on gun-control (Schumer, Feinstein, McCarthy, et al) that they would never have attained without that exposure.

Dr Hutch will now entertain questions:neener:

John Ross
January 3, 2004, 02:37 PM
"So have people like Feinstein and Schumer never been exposed to someone like the constituancy here, who would be willing to educate and erase misconceptions fostered by Hollywood and yes-men?
-or-
"Have they had the opportunity to hear it true, but either fear the topic or the truth too much and turned away the knowledge and people that would better equip them to intelligently legislate on such matters?
-or-
"Have they been educated, know the truth, and are simply personally biased against our interpretation of the 2nd? They've proven they see a use for firearms; IIRC, Diane Feinstein has a CCW. Is it that they see no need for the general populace to be armed?"


None of the above. Feinstein/Schumer et. al. do not fear guns, they fear GUNOWNERS. Guns in the hands of the general public are anathema to ever-increasing government power of career politicians.

I doubt that many legislators would admit that this is their thinking, but it is the only explanation that fits all known facts.

JR

El Tejon
January 3, 2004, 02:50 PM
Valid point, Professor Ross. Big difference between the Eloi and the Eloi's masters.

The politicians help create and feed off of the climate that guns are eeevil. However, the politicians do not fear guns. They own them and are surrounded by them. Most assuredly the politicians (and media elite) are "pro-gun for me."

However, we here in the Psych Department lounge were discussing the attitude of the Eloi. Professor Tejon holds that the Eloi are the product of their East Coast culture and are conditioned to react like sheep.

I argue nuture over Nature. Discuss amongst yourselves.:D

Baba Louie
January 3, 2004, 02:59 PM
When we disassembled the weapon and placed the parts on the mattress next to her, she ran, shrieking, from the room.
I'm afraid I would have laughed out loud and made the situation worse. Hope you didn't and were more considerate than I would have been.
Phobia's are funny things if you don't have one.
Some people fear guns. Others fear getting shot. Still others, people who OWN guns.
Such is life.

She's probably quite normal for most people who are indoctrinating the minds of our 6 year olds. Ah, the Urbanization of America. (Tell me its a good thing, please) I'm sure she didn't grow up on a farm.

Thank goodness there are people who just, just... really appreciate a well designed and built mechanical rock throwing device.

manwithoutahome
January 3, 2004, 03:02 PM
Here's the way that I look at guns:

Beautiful pieces of Art. Well crafted, with a purpose. The purpose may be for fun, relaxation, just great eye candy, or God forbide, to be used to defend yourself.

I am afraid of guns. So much so that I show them more respect then I do to my own body. I know what they can do, and I fear it's power.

But, chainsaw is the same deal, that baby can cut a limb off faster then you can scream. (saw it happen once, not pretty).

But, even through I fear the tool, not really fear, just great respect, I still have and use, both.

My thing is spiders... they are just too damn creepy. But, I know why they are here, the good that they do (especially if you get infested with flys) and I respect them greatly. I will get close to them and ponder their ways, marvel in their beauty, and even help them out by wounding a fly and putting it into their web.

But if one gets on me, I scream like a 6yo girl, start flopping around, and feel "dirty" for the next couple of days until I'm assured that it's not making a living in my flesh.

Irrational, yes. But, I don't go out of my way to try to pass laws on banning them, restricting them, or killing them on sight. They have a purpose, and I respect them for it.

M

Teufelhunden
January 3, 2004, 04:35 PM
One way to help straighten out this mess is to someway do away with this intellectual incest caused by students who graduate from a gov't indoctrination center and go to another one disguised as a "teacher's college" and then go for a job in a government indoctrination center without ever having spent a minute in the real world contemplating a real problem.

Valid point. She DID go straight from high school to college to instructing under the 'Teach America' program in NYC. As my Drill Instructors used to put it, 'too much edumacation'.

She maintains that guns are evil simply because they are only designed to kill, a point with which I heartily agree. Evidently the main difference in our opinion is that she doesn't ever see that someone might need to be dissuaded from their violent course of action, while I maintain that there are definitely people out there who will not respond to any lesser controls. :rolleyes:

The bad experience with guns in her past theory is out; she's never even seen one for real, and didn't even know that my best friend and I owned a few until recently.

I need to understand how someone can be absolutely terrified by an inatimate object. Snakes, bugs, spiders et al. I can understand, as they slither, crawl and/or hop around and CAN bite, but fearing a gun that isn't even assembled (much less wielded) is like fearing an axe. Both can be used to hurt you, but neither will autonomously hurt you. Perhaps an explanation can be worded in a simple physics problem dealing with potential energy and kinetic energy...

Regarding politicians, my personal belief is in accordance with the theory that they fear gun owners. They certainly see a use for the device; allowing the masses to have such power is what concerns them...

-Teuf

Drjones
January 4, 2004, 04:56 PM
My best friend and I were attempting to educate, or at least expose our anti friend to firearms since she has some pretty strong opinions for someone who hasn't ever even seen a gun.

To put it in perspective, her firearms knowledge is so lacking, that she (until a few days ago) thought that the entire cartridge went downrange, brass and all, when you pull the trigger. I don't mock her for that, but it is useful for showing how ignorant she is of firearms.

I too am not trying to mock her, but isn't there some saying that goes something like, "Opinions are what you have when you don't know the truth of the matter" or something like that?


When we disassembled the weapon and placed the parts on the mattress next to her, she ran, shrieking, from the room.

That episode validates this popular Freud quote:

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
--Sigmund Freud

Teufelhunden, I don't think I'd be too far off base if I said that because your friend; a) is a teacher, b) lives in NYC, c) is anti-gun, she is probably quite liberal.

Assuming that I am correct, this incident you witnessed simply further proves my hypothesis that most liberals are in fact emotionally and mentally immature.

If a grown woman running shrieking from an inanimate object isn't a sign of an incredibly low level of emotional and mental development and maturity, then I simply do not know what is.

Please do note that I'm not implying that she is stupid nor mentally ill; she is simply ignorant and can probably (hopefully) be educated on the matter.

If she refuses to be educated, then her level of intelligence can be called into question, as should her position as an educator of our youth.

Drjones
January 4, 2004, 05:05 PM
She maintains that guns are evil simply because they are only designed to kill, a point with which I heartily agree.

And on this point the both of you are quite heartily wrong. :)

1. In fact, there are many firearms that are designed for competitive shooting, precision shooting, olympic shooting, simple plinking, etc.

2. If guns are only designed to kill, then why do our police carry them? Do they desire to go about killing many people?

3. Ask your friend if killing is in fact always bad. She will probably agree that it is, but that's her problem and you can try to educate her on the matter. Disagreement on this matter and resistance to agree upon it is again, further proof of her emotional and mental immaturity, as well as a thorough ignorance of history and the very nature of mankind.

Violence is what makes the entire natural world go 'round.

It is with violence (killing) that both humans and animals procure food.

It is with violence that both animals and humans defend themselves and their offspring.

These are simple facts of the world, the same as the sky being blue and the sun rising in the east. It is the way the world always has been and always will be.

mountainclmbr
January 4, 2004, 05:57 PM
Seems that Ms Feinstein used to, and maybe still does, carry a concealed weapon (I heard it was a .38 revolver). As mayor of San Francisco she was threatened by some terrorist organization that actually placed a small bomb outside her home. She used her political connections to get sworn in as a federal marshall which allowed concealed carry, even on airlines, for protection of herself and her family.

I agree that it is a power grab for liberal politicians and the hollywood movie stars that portray guns as evil, but can afford armed security for themselves. It is pure elitism.

My guess is that your friend neaver learned critical thinking in school and believes much of the emotionally based Hollywood drivel.

Hkmp5sd
January 4, 2004, 06:07 PM
The average anti (ie not the Feinstein, Schumer, Clinton, Rosie, rabid antigun types) are simply a product of their environment. Except for those that are criminals, LEO and military, the majority of them have never touched a firearm.

They grew up in a household that didn't have firearms. Unless they follow one of the above career paths, they have little chance of coming in contact with a firearm, much less actually having firearm training.

The only firearms they see are those reported in the news as having been used in a crime (the media doesn't report the uses of guns in self defense) or in movies. What "knowledge" they do have about firearms is the outright false information put out by VPC, the Brady Bunch and the gun grabbing politicians, which is further reinforced by being reported as gospel by the biased news media. They come to equate firearms with crimes of violence and are convinced that if the firearm were simply removed from the equation, the violence would go away too.

At this point, they become part of the problem by perpetuating the mis-information and fear of guns by teaching it to their children, friends and any other ignorant person they come in contact with.

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