P-64/9x18 ammo/CCW thoughts wanted


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belercous
February 13, 2011, 11:43 PM
I recently purchased a Radom P-64 which I thought might make a good summertime CC piece. I installed a lighter spring to ease the D/A pull. It is not too big and the ballistic power is fair, more than a .380 but less than the 9mm Luger. I like the de-cocking mechanism as I don't care to carry cocked & locked. (In fall & winter I carry a Taurus P-85 or S&W Model 36.)

My question pertains to what load I should use for personal protection. I'm thinking FMJ ball ammo will be better than HP as the round doesn't seem to be fast enough to make a HP do much good. And it may possibly be less effective in stopping power. I dunno. Any thoughts?

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Shadow 7D
February 14, 2011, 01:38 AM
I would go with the silver bears, as long as the gun feeds them reliably, failing that a custom load, as the Hornady is said to be a little weak, but Buffalo Bore is coming out, or is out, with a max pressure round.

When you get to it, it's what you can accurately, and shoot reliably in the pistol.
If penetration is a concern, then by all means FMJ. Oh, I consider the DA pull a safety, no way a P64 is just going to go 'off' in DA.

legumeofterror
February 14, 2011, 02:25 AM
Stick with FMJ in this caliber. There are currently no available factory HP loads that will expand and still achieve sufficient penetration. S&B and Fiocchi bothoffer decently quick and reliable 95 gr. FMJ ammunition, which would be good choices for your P64. Winchester Metric 9x18mm is mad by S&B, so it will do if you can't find the others but will likley cost more.

Cactus Jack Arizona
February 14, 2011, 02:48 AM
When I carry my Makarov, I alternate between Silver Bear HP's and Wolf FMJ. No worries. :)

Girodin
February 14, 2011, 03:14 AM
Stick with FMJ in this caliber. There are currently no available factory HP loads that will expand and still achieve sufficient penetration.

What are you calling sufficient penetration? I thought 12" was considered sufficient.

Silver Bear 115gr JHP. Impacted at 993 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6" (corrected). Average diameter was 0.513". Track outlined in blue in picture.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/9by18mmMak1a1.JPG

I'd also be interested to see what the buffalo bore load would do with a 95 grain JHP going 1150 FPS. The BB load is more than double the price of the silver bear load if that is a consideration.

http://www.buffalobore.com/images/products/detail_233_34AMedium.jpg

This FMJ did the following in the same test, notably more penetration.

Shot 5 : Sellier & Bellot 95gr FMJ. Impacted at 965 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" in ballistic gelatin, 14" of polyester fiber. Bullet was recovered undeformed, 15 yards beyond the polyester fiber box - embedded in a ball of fiber, on top of the berm. No yawing was observed.

The Hornady XTP loads exhibited poor penetration.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html

Fastcast
February 14, 2011, 07:35 AM
What are you calling sufficient penetration? I thought 12" was considered sufficient.

Silver Bear 115gr JHP. Impacted at 993 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6" (corrected). Average diameter was 0.513". Track outlined in blue in picture.



As far as I'm aware that round is no longer available. If it is, where would a fellow 9x18 shooter purchase those?

I'd stick with FMJ, unless the above 115gr HP is available.....Every 95gr, ballistic gel test I've seen, the 9x18 expands way too much and doesn't penetrate sufficiently.....6-8" just doesn't make the cut in my book. The HP will make a big hole but what good is it if never reaches the vitals?

I believe if your using 9x18 HP....you're taking an "unscientific" risk, chance so to speak, on something that is unproven. On the other hand, history has proven that FMJ 9x18 is a lethal combination.

Snowdog
February 14, 2011, 01:04 PM
120gr and the 115gr Silver Bear that replaced it were what I kept my Russian IJ-70 loaded with. Both worked fine in my commercial Mak (that I no longer have) but I understand many had issues with the 120gr and to a lesser degree, the 115gr as there were inconsistencies in OAL and the ogive was quite flat due to the wide holllow cavity.

I liked them both and still a few of each, but you'd be out of luck if you were wanting some... neither have been manufactured for quite some time. The only Silverbear JHP currently manufactured is 94gr, which is a far cry from the 120gr and 115gr in terms of expansion (the 94gr variety doesn't want to expand).

This doesn't mean the 94gr JHP isn't worth considering. It has a fairly wide meplate, so that if it doesn't expand (and in my experience it won't), you will still have the benefit of a truncated FMJ. If your P64 feeds them, I'd suggest you use them.

There are other options out there that not only are designed to expand, but actually do, such as Hornady's 95gr XTP and Corbon's 70gr Powerball. However, as I feel the only strength my P64 has is penetration, I'm concerned that if it were to expand, penetration might begin to boarder marginally acceptable. It's already a mild round to begin with, landing in the realm of the .380acp in terms of energy. Personally, I'm content with a truncated profile FMJ for this mild round, especially from a short barrel.

You had mentioned a Taurus M85 for fall/winter carry. I'd say the P64 compares well to the M85. It might chamber a slightly less-powerful cartridge, but you get two more of them which essentially makes up the difference. I'd honestly say the P64 and M85 are near equals in terms of effectiveness.

As you're likely already aware, the quality of the P64 is surprisingly nice for the price. The single action trigger also makes it an accurate little pistol too.
I carry mine in ThunderWear (funny name but interesting/effective concept) and carried it during a two week vacation to Myrtle Beach last year without issue. Heck, I even went on a "slingshot" ride wearing the darn thing, that's how confident I am with that pistol/rig combination.

My 1976 P64 with Silver Bear 94gr JHPs (pullet bullet to the right of target to show profile).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4813605493_96d21c51c4_z.jpg

Same P64 with Silver Bear 94gr FMJ (pulled bullet also shown for profile).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4814226524_ffc004d05f_z.jpg

Olympus
February 14, 2011, 01:11 PM
I use regular FMJs when I carry my P-64.

Girodin
February 14, 2011, 02:55 PM
As far as I'm aware that round is no longer available.

It is available on my shelf lol. IDK if it is still being sold, it would seem from others that it is not. I haven't purchased any in a while. I guess I wont shoot it all up. Although I don't use a 9x18 for defensive purposes anyhow. I have 9mm guns the same size and smaller.

There are other options out there that not only are designed to expand, but actually do, such as Hornady's 95gr XTP

This is the load that exhibited 7" or so of penetration in the test above. Which is pretty interesting because the 90 grain XTP 380 load was measured at 11.4

Federal has a .380 load that penetrates 12+" (out of a P3AT which). Both of the a fore mentioned 380 loads expanded fully as well.

I know I haven't been to law school like Mr. Ayoob who recommends against it (oh wait I have and he hasn't that's right), based on a case that is not even a SD shooting I might add, but one could seemingly load up their own 115 grain loads if they really wanted a hollow point with 12"+ of penetration.

areagan
February 14, 2011, 03:10 PM
S&B FMJ ammo will make that little gem roar like a lion. Great little guns.

legumeofterror
February 14, 2011, 04:04 PM
What are you calling sufficient penetration? I thought 12" was considered sufficient.

Silver Bear 115gr JHP. Impacted at 993 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6" (corrected). Average diameter was 0.513". Track outlined in blue in picture.


Too bad it is unavailable, which is what I said.

Fastcast
February 14, 2011, 04:20 PM
This is the load that exhibited 7" or so of penetration in the test above. Which is pretty interesting because the 90 grain XTP 380 load was measured at 11.4

Federal has a .380 load that penetrates 12+" (out of a P3AT which). Both of the a fore mentioned 380 loads expanded fully as well.



Simply because the .380 is only expanding to approximately .45 diameter, whereas the 9x18 is expanding to .55 -.60 diameter.

The 9x18 HP's expand too much to be effective, if they go through an arm/hand, some other barrier or long angle.....IMO

walksbyhimself
February 15, 2011, 09:08 AM
I carry a CZ 82. I use this ammunition: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=220

To my way of thinking the 115 grain flat point is a good compromise between fmj and hollowpoint, for this caliber anyway. They are expensive, though.

Orion8472
February 15, 2011, 09:17 AM
Critical Defence is coming out for this round. Not sure how well it will perform, but can't imagine it being a bad performer.

belercous
February 16, 2011, 12:48 AM
Looks like the FMJ wins, as I sorta expected, but just had to check. I have a few boxes of Wolf Military Classic 95 FMJ on hand, but will buy a few boxes of the Silver Bear, S&B & Federal and see how each feeds & patterns before deciding on a load to carry. I was surprised about the Hornady loads, I would of thought different.

I also have a CZ-82, which I like as well for CC, but its a bit bigger and in the summer it will make a difference. Perhaps not that big of difference when compared to the extra rounds. I just haven't found a holster for it yet, but am open to a CC (in the front waist) holster if anyone can recommend a good one. I'll also run the same loads (sans Hornady) thru it to see how they perform in it. That paragonal rifiling is still kinda weird to me although my Glocks seem to hit just fine.

I'd like to thank everyone who has shared their insight/knowledge with me. And if anyone knows of a decent inside the waistband holster for a CZ-82, please share.

Again, thank you to all for your knowledge/opinions on this subject.

Girodin
February 16, 2011, 03:24 AM
FIST makes holsters for the CZ 82.

NG VI
February 16, 2011, 03:36 AM
If an HP load fails to perform as you'd like it to because of lower speeds than it requires, it will function exactly the same way as an FMJ bullet. The only way one could fail and be worse than an FMJ bullet is if it violently fragmented right away and didn't penetrate enough.

Not going to happen at 9x18 velocities without an unbelievably fragile bullet. I'd say you can't go wrong with a JHP in that caliber. It isn't going fast enough to overdo the expansion enough to negatively impact performance.

WardenWolf
February 16, 2011, 04:09 AM
S&B makes an excellent 9x18 round. I'd stick to S&B for the highest quality round. Silver Bear is good, as well, and comes in hollowpoint. I got my Silver Bear hollowpoints from AmmunitionToGo.com. They still have them, and they're still cheap. Hard to beat $10.95 a box. They also have the FMJ for $9.95.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-9x18-makarov

Some people have reported feeding issues with hollowpoints in the P-64, but most report it's only after around 200 rounds have been fired without cleaning, and polishing the feed ramp fixes this. Your mileage may vary. Be sure to test whether your individual gun likes them well enough to carry.

I like the P-64. Mine's on my side right now. It's part of my daily wardrobe. When the belt goes on, the gun goes with it. If you want new grips for it, check out http://www.marschalgrips.com. The guy does custom wood grips for a lot of ComBloc military handguns. He's slow, but it's worth the wait. My recommendation: red walnut.

Sebastian the Ibis
February 16, 2011, 08:26 AM
I use the FMJ brown bear. No problems feeding or firing. I occasionally get FTF's with the SB hollow points.

NG VI
February 16, 2011, 10:50 AM
Every 95gr, ballistic gel test I've seen, the 9x18 expands way too much and doesn't penetrate sufficiently.....6-8" just doesn't make the cut in my book.


I guess that would suck almost as bad as fragmenting.

belercous
February 16, 2011, 10:48 PM
Thanks, Girodin, I didn't know anyone made CC holster for the CZ-82.

I polish the feed ramps of all my semi-auto pistols and certainly do clean any carry gun.
Seems like I get conflicting views on HP rounds so I think I'll stick with FMJ as I know what they will do.

Thanks for the help guys.

harmon rabb
February 17, 2011, 06:42 AM
Thanks, Girodin, I didn't know anyone made CC holster for the CZ-82.

Holsters made for a Bersa thunder, Walther PPK, and Kahr K40 all fit the CZ-82. I'm sure there are a bunch of others that will work too.

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