Long Range Threads


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lizziedog1
February 14, 2011, 09:01 AM
Why are there so many threads here about how far an animal can be shot? This category is called HUNTING. Isn't part of it trying to get as close to the game as possible. It would be refreshing to see someone here ask questions about tactics to get as close as possible to game without spooking it.

I am more impressed by the hunter that is able to get a fifty yard shot then with one that brags about 500 yard shots!

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FLAvalanche
February 14, 2011, 10:21 AM
Not always. Sometimes the terrain or the animals awareness just doesn't work in your favor and a long range shot is necessary.

Everyone hunts different. As long as their dropping animals cleanly and quickly what is the difference between a 50 yard shot and a 500 yard shot besides 450 yards?

CZsp01
February 14, 2011, 10:21 AM
Different strokes for different folks

Art Eatman
February 14, 2011, 11:32 AM
For some of us, it's a matter of terrain and vegetation. I'm in wide-open desert mountains, with sparse vegetation. Canyons and ravines; lots of thorns. I have a 16-day mule deer season, and the population density is low. I'm lucky to find one shootable buck in a season.

If it's feasible to get somewhere in the vicinity of "close", sure, I'll do that. But developing the skill to hit Bambi out in Ma Bell country is quite close to being a necessity for me.

Through the years, the closest I've sneaked up on a buck was ten feet. I hit him in the butt with a small rock, just for giggles. My longest kill was 450 yards; one hit, right in the boiler room and DRT.

suzukisam
February 14, 2011, 05:47 PM
Isn't part of it trying to get as close to the game as possible. why? all of it is trying to get brown down. it takes just as much effort, time, and skill to drop a 1000yrd elk as to shoot one at 10 yrds with a bow. as much skill, but different skill.

I am more impressed by the hunter that is able to get a fifty yard shot then with one that brags about 500 yard shots! we are impressed by what impresses us. I'm not impressed by tight rope walkers.. seems stupid to me really. doesn't mean I could do it. and it doesn't mean it isn't an amazing skill. I just get sick thinking their gonna fall. what does or doesn't "impress" you is really irrelevant as to whether that ability has value. long range hunting is a complete skill all in itself. and personally it impresses me a lot! farthest I've shot a deer is 200. killed a lot of paper though at 400. last year my bro dropped a whitetail DRT at 350.. I was impressed as heck!

desidog
February 14, 2011, 06:55 PM
That's an interesting observation.

I don't understand that question; much like people who ask how far they can ethically shoot with irons...i mean, forum members are very knowledgeable, but since I've never seen those posters face to face, let alone seen them shoot, I am not qualified to judge their ability. Others might be more clairvoyant than I am; I just have ESPN, no ESP.

Also, it seems to me that the "mall-ninja" culture, ever more pervasive and encouraged and fueled by the aftermarket parts industry, is much more oriented to what is hanging off a gun and/or a new cammo pattern (or military gear) than in things that you can't order over the internet...like woodcraft.

WTBguns10kOK
February 14, 2011, 09:01 PM
I'm with ya LizzieDog. We didn't always have all these fancy guns that shoot 1000 yards, and yet somehow we fought wars, hunted the buffalo to near extinction (sometimes even on the wide open plains!) and a host of other notorious feats with guns. The problem of feeling the need to take unnecessary 500 yard shots is partly perpetuated by awful TV shows where Billy Bob hunts on a high fence ranch, where ironically, it's even less necessary. But whatever.

I'll practice long range, but haven't shot anything over 125 yards yet and don't desire to. It's just not enjoyable. Half the people don't even realize the killing power they lose at such long ranges, too, yet they complain they had a "perfect double lung shot" and it "refused to go down." The art of hunting is being lost with no one noticing.

snakeman
February 14, 2011, 09:18 PM
I agree, but there is something about a longe range shot. I think it's always best to get as close as possible, that's why I have been hunting with a 45/70 and got my eight point at 20 yds. However, there are those times when you just can't get close. So you need to be prepared to make an ethical long range shot for a clean kill. Always be prepared. 400 is my limit.

wankerjake
February 14, 2011, 10:40 PM
Conversely, I'm sick of all the guys who think long range hunting isn't hunting because they don't do it. Here's a picture of the terrain we find Coues deer in out in southern AZ. If you can only shoot 125 yards, you will be hard pressed to kill a buck. You can do it, but you won't get one every year:
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo33/wankerjake/100_3678.jpg

I've only killed two coues deer in my day. Shot one at 225 yards, the other was a similar distance, I didn't have a rangefinder back then. If I had been set up to shoot farther then like I am now, I'd have killed more. My dad can only shoot out to like 200 yards and guess how many deer he's killed out here (2 less than me). Just because the farthest shot you can possibly take in the Alabammy forests is 150 yards doesn't mean there is different vegetation and different terrain that other folks hunt animals in. Just because YOU can't shoot past 300 yards doesn't mean that I can't.

Here's another picture. The pile of white rocks on the closest hill past the binoculars is around 400 yards. Once you get on the same hillside as the deer it is thick enough you'd have to jump them and take a running shot. What's more ethical? Shooting at running deer off-hand at 80 yards or standing deer with a rest and rangefinder at 400 yards? Of course the skill level of the shooter is the main determinant, not just the yardage.
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo33/wankerjake/100_3674.jpg

It takes SKILL to develop a load, figure out your maximum range, find a good spot, glass your arse off until you find a little 100 pound deer in the vegetation, and make a good shot. That's all there is to it. Just cause you can't doesn't mean others shouldn't.

I am in agreement with you on one aspect though; there is a right way to do it and there is guessing. One leads to a high recovery rate, the other doesn't. And that's the one that happens the most.

35 Whelen
February 14, 2011, 11:55 PM
I think what lizzie refers to is hunters who ONLY seek long shots. To me, that's not hunting, that's shooting. Some hunting necessitates long shots as wanderjake pointed out. However, there's too many people out there who are happy as can be to fling bullets at distant game. TV hunting shows and youtube perpetuate this garbage.
I have a 600 yd. range at the house that I use to practice High Power. The target is 36" in diameter to facilitate the use of iron sights. Hitting it with my K-31 is really no big deal and shooting decent groups isn't too difficult, provided the wind is calm or at least steady. Factor in a gusty or variable wind however, and it's an entirely different matter. And so it is with shooting at game at long ranges.
That is why I maintain that there are FAR more game animals missed or wounded at long ranges than most long range "hunters" will admit.
There's simply more to shooting game at long range than whether or not an individual can hit it. A couple of elk seasons ago, I watched a VERY nice 6x6 spar with a smaller bull at a lasered 514 yds. I probably could have hit him, but since they were in a small opening across a basin, I felt it would be irresponsible as even with a good hit the bull likely would have made it into the cover where finding him would have been difficult at best. I passed and within a half hour shot another bull at 355 yds. which for me personally is on the edge of too far for such a large animal.
Just because you can hit a deer or whatever at 600 yds. doesn't mean you should go flinging bullets at game at extended ranges.
35W

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 01:09 AM
there's too many people out there who are happy as can be to fling bullets at distant game. TV hunting shows and youtube perpetuate this garbage.

I study long range shooting and handloading for it. I don't hunt that way yet cause my skills past 300 are not yet what I want them to be. having said this, I don't see anyone on tv "perpetuating", "flinging" lead. no body says you have to hunt this way, however if a hard core cap and ball shooter chimes in here, he's gonna tell you how you don't Need" those conical bullets, brass cases, and primers. I mean we got by for years without all those fancy new-fangled calibers like 30-06, and 45-70.. this whole argument is realative to your perceptoin.

Just because you can hit a deer or whatever at 600 yds. doesn't mean you should go flinging bullets at game at extended ranges.

so if you have the skills to do it then you definitely shouldn't? so if I can shoot an inch and a half group at say 300yrds, why shouldn't I shoots a yote? who desides how far is too far?

That is why I maintain that there are FAR more game animals missed or wounded at long ranges than most long range "hunters" will admit.

would love to see some facts to prove this. not to mention if the possibility of wounding an animal and not finding it bothers you this bad, hunting isn't your cup of tea. I don't think it's a good thing, but hunt long enough and a duck is gonna get winged and fly in the weeds, or a squirrel is gonna live long enough to get into his nest and die... it just happens. I don't like it either but they are just animals.

jbkebert
February 15, 2011, 01:43 AM
I am a little torn on the argument. Rifle hunting does not have the appeal to me that it used to. In this area which is very close to your Suzukiman I can't think of a single area I could not get within 100 yards of a game animal. I do practice long range shooting and I do handload but in this part of Kansas or Western MO it is really not needed.

I am a die hard bowhunter while it takes a diffrent set of skills like pointed out earlier it is my prefered method. I have taken 20+ deer, hogs, elk, blackbear, audad, and numerous other critters inside 15yards. So as a whole at least in this neck of the woods there is no need to take a long shot. If you feel that its needed perhaps a little time practicing woodsmanship to go along with the long range practice.

pat86323
February 15, 2011, 02:58 AM
I hunt out in pretty open country alot of the time, i have never had to take a shot longer then 250yards. If i have a reasonable chance of closing the distance to 200 or less yards you bet ill do my best to get as close as i can, but out here in this open country it isnt always possible. If i get an opportunity to get within shorter range i will always take it, if i spot something at 400-500 yards and dont see a good way to get any closer i will take the shot. I practice long range shooting and have seen some very lethal shots at long range most notably on a good sized cow elk at just over 600 yards...... My dad spotted her on a wide open grassy slope, no real way to get close so he rested against one of the 3 trees between him and the elk and bang. That elk never even thought about taking another step just flopped and rolled down the side of the hill. If you have the skill and tools to do the job why not? I dont feel like he made an unethical shot nor do i feel that taking a long shot makes him any less of a "hunter" if he had the choice between a 100 yard shot and a 500 yard shot im pretty positive hed shoot the 100 yarder. Sometimes the conditions do not allow it. Wankerjake is correct, i feel a 400 yard shot with the proper skill and tool is far more ethical then trying to jump one up and take a running shot.

35 Whelen
February 15, 2011, 03:38 AM
so if you have the skills to do it then you definitely shouldn't? so if I can shoot an inch and a half group at say 300yrds, why shouldn't I shoots a yote? who desides how far is too far?

As you someday will see, there's so much more to hitting game at long ranges than skill. For example, do you know how much your bullet drifts at 600 yds. in a 10 mph breeze? (Quick...find an on-line ballistics calculator) Good! Now, see what happens if you misjudge the wind by 5 mph or worse yet, 10 mph. Oops....now we've probably missed or worse yet gut shot an animal. Remember, most people here are telling you they "can't" get closer, which means a lack of vegetation. How vegetation is moving is what most people use to judge wind velocity.
An 1 1/2" group at 300 yds. is very impressive, but you probably won't be hunting from a bench with sandbags, so the groups says little more than you have an accurate rifle. I'll promise you it's much easier to hit at long ranges sitting at your keyboard than it is in the field.

would love to see some facts to prove this.
You won't see facts because people don't like to admit when they miss. Go out and shoot long range WITHOUT the bench. I promise you'll gather more facts in that manner than you will any other way. I'll promise you it's much easier to hit at long ranges sitting at your keyboard than it is in the field.

not to mention if the possibility of wounding an animal and not finding it bothers you this bad, hunting isn't your cup of tea. I don't think it's a good thing, but hunt long enough and a duck is gonna get winged and fly in the weeds, or a squirrel is gonna live long enough to get into his nest and die... it just happens. I don't like it either but they are just animals.

Nice....very nice....the above three sentences say alot about you. Do you understand ETHICS and personal responsibility? Any hunter who ISN'T bothered by wounding and losing an animal concerns me. And for you to tell me that being bothered by wounding and losing an animal means hunting isn't my cup of tea is plain stupid. I've been hunting since I was a small boy, over 40 years now, and the older I get, the more it bothers me. "It just happens" is an equally stupid statement. True, sometimes things happen that are beyond a hunters control that contribute to wounded game. That I can accept, but not shooting at game at stupid long ranges IS within our control.

Sometimes we as hunters have the entitlement mentality. We bought a tag, so we somehow "deserve" an animal even if it means taking an irresponsible shot.

35W

Davek1977
February 15, 2011, 08:41 AM
. not to mention if the possibility of wounding an animal and not finding it bothers you this bad, hunting isn't your cup of tea. I don't think it's a good thing, but hunt long enough and a duck is gonna get winged and fly in the weeds, or a squirrel is gonna live long enough to get into his nest and die... it just happens. I don't like it either but they are just animals. I disagree with that sentiment. Losing a game animal tears me up, whether its a trophy deer or a single sharptail grouse. I don't think that "hutning isn't my cup of tea" because i feel losing an animal is a tragedy. been doing it my whole life, lost a few animals, felt bad about it, but moved on. Having an emotional gut reaction to losing an animal is nothing to be ashamed of, and if it DID NOT bother me, I don't believe I'd have any business being afield. The fact that some animals are lost regardless of distance is NOT a valid argument for long distance shooting. if you can not be ASSURED of killing the animal humanely, you simply have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER taking the shot...period. It doesn't matter if that 450 yd shot is "the only shot you may get all year". If it is, but you aren't fully confident of making a killshot, go a year without taking a shot. I'd rather go deerless than know i left a deer to die a slow, painful death because of my overconfidence and excitement at finally "getting a shot". I've killed deer every year I've hunted, from 12 right on thru 33.....and I've yet to believe a 500 yd shot would be necessary to put venison in the freezer.....

Hangingrock
February 15, 2011, 10:02 AM
Iím surrounded by hardwoods and tobacco/soybean fields. The land youíre on dictates the parameters of the hunt. Since I donít live in the wide open itís not a necessity to place long distance shots. Weíre allowed five deer per tag here. Fill your tag out and buy another tag. (It should be said I no longer hunt but allow hunting on the property.)

I discourage certain shooting situations by applying a simple rule shots taken must equate to deer taken. Since we have an abundance of deer there have been no issues. Our guest hunters appear to pass on questionable shots and thatís the way itís been since I acquired the property.

IF I lived in the wide open my experience and thoughts would be influenced by the hunting environment. There are those among us that can and do oppose to those that canít but do.

shaggy430
February 15, 2011, 10:03 AM
If you practice and you can make the shot, what's the problem? If it's not your thing, then don't do it. I'm sick of hunters putting down how other hunters choose to legally hunt. The anti's want us to fight.

This category is called HUNTING.

Exactly. Just because others choose to hunt a different way doesn't mean that your way is right or better. Personally, I've killed most of the animals that I've taken at 50 yards or less, but if an opportunity presents itself out to 300 yards or slightly more then I feel confident taking that shot because I've practiced and know my skills and my limitations.

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 11:37 AM
you both took that way out of context i made it very clear I dislike the thought of losing game. I've only ever lost a couple doves, and a duck, and I hated it. but the truth is that it is a reality that could happen. new hunters, youth, bow hunting, they all have major risks, especially for those getting started. and no you don't know anything about me though you have many presumtions.

oh and I don't have any sand bags.. actually never even used any before. I guess I never really needed them. could I borrow yours I might like them. I could probably bring my groups in a little with some. :neener:

desidog
February 15, 2011, 05:00 PM
. not to mention if the possibility of wounding an animal and not finding it bothers you this bad, hunting isn't your cup of tea. I don't think it's a good thing, but hunt long enough and a duck is gonna get winged and fly in the weeds, or a squirrel is gonna live long enough to get into his nest and die... it just happens. I don't like it either but they are just animals.

Quite frankly, the post i quoted from appalls me.

"it just happens" NO. It does not "just happen." It takes an incompetent, irresponsible and/or unethical person to make that course of events happen.

"but they are just animals."...people are animals too.

gamestalker
February 15, 2011, 05:04 PM
I'm deffinitely someone who enjoys the long range shot, but this was different. I had glassed up a nice buck about a mile away and set up for the long shot of around 500 yds.. After the shot I went to look for him or sign and had clearly missed him completely. So I followed his tracks very slowly and then heard his hooves shuffle, when I looked in front of me, he was standing maybe 10 feet away. I had a scoped .270 win. and just looked down the barrel putting one right through the pump station. He was so close to me that when I shot him I got blood splater on me! How is that for close?

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 05:07 PM
So are you.

okay? Hunting people is illegal, because we are not the same thing. I am human. and now your equating hunting to murder. If you guys want to have an educated debate on hunting at long ranges I will be happy to banter back and forth. but if you guys are going to call names and say killing people is the same thing, than I'll graciously bow out of this thread.

gamestalker
February 15, 2011, 05:10 PM
You are glassing in unit 36A. I know that exact same spot you are in and have killed a lot couse deer and mule deer in that area. I also like 36B for the couse. I'll bet my Son or I know you. We camped for a week in 36A for the November mule deer hunt and then camped for a week in January for the archery hunt.

desidog
February 15, 2011, 05:17 PM
suzukisam,

I hunted Taliban for two years in Afghanistan. I took some very long shots. Further than i'd pop at a deer... and, ethically, i wouldn't bracket a deer...or use a 50BMG.

Humans are animals. Much like everything else that lives on this world and breathes.

I was not name calling. Simply suggesting that the connection between you and your quarry is closer than you think.

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 05:17 PM
again if you guys want to keep this civil I will debate this with you. Quite frankly, the post i quoted from appalls me.

"it just happens" NO. It does not "just happen." It takes an irresponsible and unethical person to make that course of events happen.

this isn't true always. there are times when things happen. I'll give an example my bro and i were hunting with power belt muzzle loader bullets. the bullet failed. At 20 yrds the bullet blew up on a rib and litterally shattered to pieces. the deer was mortaly but we ddn't find it till days later. there was nothing unethically done. Short range shot, precise aiming. He also had a deer run away with a broadhead through his heart. almost didn't find that one either(but we did). things happen. I will ruin my days hunt to find an animal if I think there is any chance I wounded it..even a chance. But yes as dissapointed as I am, for me and the animal, I'm still going to hunt the next day if i don't find it, and feel I've exhausted all my resources to do so. Because in the end it is just an animal. it's not a human. WE are very different.

desidog- thank you for your service I have much respect for you in that!;) I know you didn't call me any names but I was called stupid by another

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 05:42 PM
and just to be very clear I think that no one should take a shot in the field at any distance if the have not first proven at the range in practice that this is well within their skill set. having said that the range at which animals can be taken is only limited to ones skills WHICH INCLUDES, a knowledge of wind, bullet rotation, drop, and even at what velocity the bullet in question will effectively make the kill. See whelen automatically assumed I was "stupid" I am actually far more knowledgeable than I am skillful. I am slowly raising my skill level. which is why I currently limit myself to 300 yrds in the field. I kill paper much past that though. usually cleanly harvested too(deep sighs from the crowd)

jbkebert
February 15, 2011, 07:18 PM
Maybe this is why I like bowhunting so much. Bowhunters get thier jollies by pushing to see just how close can we get to our quarry. Instead of just how far away can I get and still make a clean shot.

WTBguns10kOK
February 15, 2011, 10:24 PM
Conversely, I'm sick of all the guys who think long range hunting isn't hunting because they don't do it

We think it's not hunting, because it's not very sporting. Not because we don't do it. Anyone can take a fancy rifle and huge scope and shoot off a rest. Honestly, not that hard.

I've only killed two coues deer in my day.

So you're fighting against those of us who dislike long range hunting when you've killed two deer, at 225 yards? I think most people could shoot 225 yards offhand. That's not particularly long range.

Just because YOU can't shoot past 300 yards doesn't mean that I can't.

I can shoot past 300 yards, like pretty much everyone else. Doesn't mean it's always sporting/ethical to do that. No need to make blanket accusations.

It takes SKILL to develop a load, figure out your maximum range, find a good spot, glass your arse off until you find a little 100 pound deer in the vegetation, and make a good shot. That's all there is to it. Just cause you can't doesn't mean others shouldn't.

Somehow I don't think it takes skill to test a bunch of factory loads. Not everyone has the correct situation to reload. Same thing with range. Doesn't take skill to find what range you're accurate to. And glassing. It doesn't take skill to look through binoculars or rangefinders. Find those deer with just your eyes and getting from 750 yards to maybe 100 yards or less? Now that's more like it.

Hunting? Yes, it can take skill to do that...or sometimes there's blind luck in getting really close to an animal. But, you can't do that when you're glassing from 931 yards.

pat86323
February 15, 2011, 10:41 PM
"We think it's not hunting, because it's not very sporting. Not because we don't do it. Anyone can take a fancy rifle and huge scope and shoot off a rest. Honestly, not that hard."

Well wtbguns........come on out here and show me how "not that hard" it is, i hunted 7 seasons prior to getting my first mulie. In that time i only saw probably 11 or 12 bucks during seasons. Early on i had limited myself to 200 yards because thats what i was comfortable with. A couple times i was spotted and busted by deer that were far enough away that i couldnt hardly make them out with my naked eye. I would begin my stalk on deer that i had glassed from great distance only to see white patches bouncing up the side of a hill. Spot and stalk hunting in relatively open country is hard.....PERIOD. Being able to shoot at longer distance makes it a feasible thing. Since then ive learned a few tricks and can usually get alot closer. But even with the skills ive aquired over the years, it isnt easy, hell it isnt even hard, it can be damn near impossible. Remember out here in az if you see a good buck it will very very likely be the only one you see that season. We do whatever we can to try to put that buck on the ground, if that means making a 500 yard shot so be it. Please also remember that i will do whatever i can to get within a closer range, it is rarely a feasible option out here.

"It doesn't take skill to look through binoculars or rangefinders."

This is nothing but proof that you have no idea what we are talking about. Ive glassed a rock that looked like it might be a deer for 10 minutes only to look again an hour later and see that it was in fact a deer that was laying still camoflauged into the surroundings that had finally decided to move. If you want to talk about it like you know what you are talking about.....try it.


Come on out and ill put you on a big 5x5 mulie buck that i tried to stalk with my bow 7 times this last archery season. Ill lend you my 10x zoom camera and if you can get close enough to him to get a picture in which you can count points on his massive rack ill be impressed. I happen to know of at least 2 other hunters who are far more experienced then myself that have also failed to close the distance on this guy. I can find him 7 days a week, along with several other people......no one has shot him yet. I got about 150 from him while he had his nose up a does butt.....unfortunately 150 might as well be 800 with a bow and theres no such thing as a rifle rut hunt out here.

suzukisam
February 15, 2011, 10:59 PM
We think it's not hunting, because it's not very sporting. Not because we don't do it. Anyone can take a fancy rifle and huge scope and shoot off a rest. Honestly, not that hard.

has nothing to do with buying a fancy rifle. you have to have an active knowledge of what will affect the bullet that day. bullet drop, hold over, wind, these are things that you have to have spent months and or years developing the skill to execute them all at one split second. it takes time and practice out in the field in real world situations

So you're fighting against those of us who dislike long range hunting when you've killed two deer, at 225 yards? I think most people could shoot 225 yards offhand. That's not particularly long range.

This is not a FIGHT. This is a discussion on the ethics involved in long range hunting. if you want to "fight" than you should go to the UFC website!
I can shoot past 300 yards, like pretty much everyone else. Doesn't mean it's always sporting/ethical to do that. No need to make blanket accusations.

no everyone can't. The fact that you can is good.

Somehow I don't think it takes skill to test a bunch of factory loads. Not everyone has the correct situation to reload. Same thing with range. Doesn't take skill to find what range you're accurate to.

no it takes time, dedication, and precision loads. Most factory loads are not suitable for very long range shooting. even premium ammo has quite a bit of variation. and yes long range shooting takes very much skill and dedication. the fact that you don't see any of this is an indication that you may not be informed on how much skill is involved. try holding steady on a pair of shooting sticks and shoot your limit(whatever distance that is). especially when you have a beautiful specimen out there. it's never easy.

jbkebert
February 15, 2011, 11:22 PM
While I do agree that is does take skill to shoot long range. I used to spend as much time as possible shooting praire dogs. Learning my rifle and its likes and dislikes is very rewarding. I think the problem lies in the fact that every internet comando thinks they can shoot 1k. Most have no idea what 1000 yards even looks like let alone has the skills to do it.

I don't know that its tv shows or what; yes the guys from the Best of West make it look easy. Yes there are folks that can do it and can do it well. There however a far more morons that have convinced themselves into believing that they can. The result is wounded game animals, damaged property, damaged reputation of hunters. If you practice you rear off and can hit your target each and every time, plan your shots, and put the game animal before your own pride. More power to you. I am impressed with the skill and dedication.

However most folks have become so jaded from hearing so many blowhards yapping about how great they are. Don't be surprised when things are questioned or taken with a grain of salt.

wankerjake
February 15, 2011, 11:58 PM
Hey WTBguns, what state do you hunt in? I'm dying to compare the similarities in habitat and deer numbers where we hunt. How many legal deer would you say you see during an average 7 day hunt?
"It doesn't take skill to look through binoculars or rangefinders."

This is nothing but proof that you have no idea what we are talking about. Ive glassed a rock that looked like it might be a deer for 10 minutes only to look again an hour later and see that it was in fact a deer that was laying still camoflauged into the surroundings that had finally decided to move. If you want to talk about it like you know what you are talking about.....try it.

WELL said Pat! It's easy to get close to deer when they travel the same trail every day and come to the same feed plot every day, and you have a gazillion deer in your state, and you can shoot does. These clowns have no idea about deer hunting in Arizona, but they'll go on and on about how it is. Guess what folks, the deer herd in AZ is what most people would call lousy. We actually have to look for our deer, we can't sit a trail and be certain they will come down the path every day.

So you're fighting against those of us who dislike long range hunting when you've killed two deer, at 225 yards? I think most people could shoot 225 yards offhand. That's not particularly long range.

Of course it isn't, read the rest of the paragraph. I wasn't set up to shoot past that until this year, and I couldn't get a buck in range so I didn't kill one farther away this year. But I know I can do it. I'm no pro at this yet, but I can see that if you want to be successful hunting these deer, down here in this habitat, you're best bet is to be able to poke out there a ways.

I've killed more than 2 deer, only 2 coues deer. The terrain they live in makes it very difficult to get close to them. Yes it is possible, I've done it twice during hunting season. I've killed 5 muleys, 4 were under 50 yards I'd say and the other was like 100-150. One with my bow. It's all about terrain.

We think it's not hunting, because it's not very sporting. Not because we don't do it. Anyone can take a fancy rifle and huge scope and shoot off a rest. Honestly, not that hard.

Anybody can luck onto a deer in thick cover and the deer herd is large, and make an easy 50 yard shot. Honestly, not that hard. I do it every year with elk.

Somehow I don't think it takes skill to test a bunch of factory loads. Not everyone has the correct situation to reload. Same thing with range. Doesn't take skill to find what range you're accurate to.

It takes more skill to do that than it does to sight in an inch high at 100 yards and call it good. If you think it is just as easy to work up a load and make it shoot well enough to kill at 500 yards as it is at 200 yards, then you obviously haven't done it.

And glassing. It doesn't take skill to look through binoculars or rangefinders. Find those deer with just your eyes and getting from 750 yards to maybe 100 yards or less? Now that's more like it.

So if I understand you correctly, it doesn't take skill to do anything. Everything is easy. By your definition, it must only be sporting to kill deer at under 50 yards with a handgun or bow, maybe after a verbal warning and a warning shot.

Come on out to AZ and sneak up on a deer that is 750 yards away that you spotted with your naked eye, and then sneaking over a canyon or two without the deer seeing you. All they do all day is watch, for you. Across a canyon you can see thru the brush to the other side, but when you get on the same side you can't shoot past 50 yards but you can see thru it. And you can't even see a Coues deer with the naked eye at 400 yards standing, much less 750 yards (unless they are moving maybe). Without binoculars in this country you may as well stay home. You are so clueless about the terrain/flora/deer habits out here that I may as well be explaining this to my mother-in-law:rolleyes:

pat86323
February 16, 2011, 12:08 AM
There is no doubt that there are lots of idiots out there who talk a big game and play a very small one. However i take offense when someone tells me that what i do is too easy or takes no skill. As i already stated i havent had to take a long range shot yet. But for someone to say that anyone can shoot long range off a rest has obviously never been shooting with other people EVER. I know of quite a few people who cant put up a 3 inch group at 100 let alone 300 even with a rest. Remember dude we dont carry benchrests on our sometimes 5 and 6 mile (or longer) hikes over very steep canyons and rocky nasty country. Its usually using your knee as a rest, or a rock or a tree. Some people use bipods but even a bipod cant make someone who cant shoot well into a marksman.

To be quite frank it seems that you guys back there with your 75-150 yard shots have it easy. Set up treestand over good feeding area and shoot. Now i dont actually believe that its that easy because ive never done it. I know there are quirks and things that make that type of hunting challenging in its own way A western hunting convert (my dad, who grew up in illinois) has told me a thousand times "deer hunting is soo much easier in the midwest" This coming from a guy who has perfected taking 4-600 yard shots. Even with the long range capability that he has he still swears up and down that getting a 50 yard shot on a whitetail in Illinois is easier then getting a 200 yard shot on a mulie in the pinyon juniper vegitation in northern az.

Before you go off telling me how easy i have it, i invite you to come out and show me how easy it is. Id love the learning experience.

To quote jake "Come on out to AZ and sneak up on a deer that is 750 yards away that you spotted with your naked eye, and then sneaking over a canyon or two without the deer seeing you."

Ill go one further, spot one standing still at 300 yards and thats a feat on its own. Next spot one at 750 with binos and close the distance. All i can say is good luck.

wankerjake
February 16, 2011, 12:16 AM
Pat, man we are on the same page. That post sums it up exactly.

i invite you to come out and show me how easy it is. Id love the learning experience.

Come on out guys, Coues tags go over-the-counter for the ones that don't fill up in the draw. Same tags I've hunted last few years. Show me how it's done, I could be hunting coyotes instead of practicing with my rifle at long range weeks before the hunt.

pat86323
February 16, 2011, 12:33 AM
Fact is, if you want to know why we desire to have rifles that are capable of long shots come hunt. Thats the only way you will understand. Its a totally different type of hunting then what you are talking about. That doesnt make it any less "hunting" or any less "sporting".

suzukisam
February 16, 2011, 12:43 AM
Man I envy you guys with all the open country. we have so much farmland out here it's crazy. finding a deer to shoot is no big deal. it's finding a place to hunt that is tough. My uncle and I had a whitetail walk up to our stand at about thirty feet and just stare up at us. he tasted great! I shot a couple and the guys we hunted with all shot a couple. most everyone shot one and all of them but mine were 10-100 yrds. no feeders food plots or anything like that. just CRP land. I would love to go out and hike the open country and shoot long distances. don't know if I could do it, but i think the experience would be awesome. I don't get the hype about a few yrds away. I shot one at 15 feet last year. it's pretty easy around here. still fun though! I'm only speaking of north east MO everywhere is different, but they are pretty plentiful here.. you can get all of them you want with your car. they're like a nuisance around here. I counted about 10 dead deer on I-435 on my way home tonight.(20 min drive)
My neighbor in the middle of the city puts food on his back porch and a herd of 30 just sit under his porch light. It makes me insane! I want to throw a rope around ones neck and drag it inside! so I guess all this is why the thought of a tough hike and a long shot seems challenging to me

wankerjake
February 16, 2011, 12:56 AM
so I guess all this is why the thought of a tough hike and a long shot seems challenging to me

I assure you it's quite sporting, despite what people who have never hunted here will tell you. Even guys who can shoot don't get one every year, most hunts in AZ are tough. They call Coues deer hunting the "poor man's sheep hunt." Come on out!

pat86323
February 16, 2011, 01:13 AM
About the only thing in az that i can think of thats easy to hunt is javalina, those things are a little "slow", but they are only easy if you can find em. Start putting in for tags or get a bow and get ready to be very very frustrated and come on out. Theres public land everywhere and more game then you think.

Ankeny
February 16, 2011, 11:33 AM
I have had the long range shooting conversations with several game wardens here in Wyoming. They all agree the trend is proving somewhat problematic. Then again, there a lot of problematic activities transpiring in the hunting fields. FWIW, I have shot a lot of big game animals at what many of you would consider "long range". All were clean, ethical kills, taken under ideal (for the range) conditions. With well over a hundred (no exaggeration) big game animals harvested over the years, I have never failed to recover an animal. Furthermore, I haven't missed a big game animal in many, many years. So what is the problem?

WTBguns10kOK
February 16, 2011, 04:07 PM
Hey WTBguns, what state do you hunt in? I'm dying to compare the similarities in habitat and deer numbers where we hunt. How many legal deer would you say you see during an average 7 day hunt?

Well, I apologize, I think between the 3 of you, you've got me beat, especially in post count. I'm in MT and considering that's it's a little smaller than AZ and much like the midwest thick cover, I see your guys' point. I'd say on the public land I hunt, I'm usually seeing somewhere between 17 and 30 150+ class bucks daily, at very short distances.

To be quite frank it seems that you guys back there with your 75-150 yard shots have it easy.
Remember dude we dont carry benchrests on our sometimes 5 and 6 mile (or longer) hikes over very steep canyons and rocky nasty country.

Again, I apologize, dude, I'm unfamiliar with hiking many miles and challenging terrain. How can you guys even carry all your other gear that far...and a gun too?

Hangingrock
February 16, 2011, 04:44 PM
It sounds like one has to be a masochist capable of enduring self inflicted pain and enjoying it to hunt in the ďWide OpenĒ.:what::what::uhoh: Shucks you could fill a tag out here (thatís five deer per tag) in week or so (by the way youíre allowed two deer a day) and have taken more deer here than a decade of hunting in the ďWide OpenĒ:D:D
Like I said in my original blurting of words the terrain/environment determines the conditions of the hunt.;)

pat86323
February 16, 2011, 05:03 PM
Well WTBguns, im sorry if i offended you, but if you are in montana and can consistently get shots under 200 yards you must either be one of the best hunters in the world or are hunting somewhere that recieves significantly less pressure (that second one is pretty likely) You also might spend alot of time on a quad/truck patrolling roads. You are still invited to come on out and show me how easy it is to hunt these deer/elk. I would love the education.

Hangingrock, yes hunting the mule coues deer is quite a bit more challenging from my observations. Ever wonder why there arent many buckmasters shows hunting Mule Deer? Probably because they dont want to spend the money to film a bunch of hunts where you are seeing 1 or 2 deer a day. I dont ever recall seeing a coues hunt on tv. You dont have to be a masochist at all. You do have to hike long distances, many times over unforgiving terrain. Blisters happen, cactus happens, but you dont have to like it. Hell most people dont have the steel to do it, and drive roads all day long looking for deer. This his how the majority of 100 yard shots are taken i would guess........thats alot less hunting then glassing and shooting long range. The other option is still hunting, which still produces alot of long shots after you spook one and he runs 300 yards and looks back to see what you are.

wankerjake
February 16, 2011, 07:53 PM
I'd say on the public land I hunt, I'm usually seeing somewhere between 17 and 30 150+ class bucks daily, at very short distances.

You would be completely bored hunting in AZ. I have not seen 17 150" mule deer in my life. More like 5-10. Found a few sheds. They are here, but I don't know where they're at. Buck to doe ration for muleys here is like 10% or something. I've had 40 deer days without seeing even a spike.

Glassing Coues deer all day, I see between 7-30 deer depending on the spot, and I'm lucky to see a buck every day. I have found a number of nice bucks in the off season, but they all disappear during the hunt. I saw 6 bucks in 7 days last year. Mostly spikes and forks. Pitiful, and I was looking hard.

Honestly, I can see your point. If I was seeing 15-30 bucks a day (my God, what a paradise!), I would have a different opinion. Whole different ballgame. I'm serious, anybody wants to come try it is welcome. It's a good time, and it's challenging. We may argue the whole time, but I'll do my best to put you on a buck.

suzukisam
February 16, 2011, 08:33 PM
pat & jake-

what do you guys shoot out there? what combo have you found works at those ranges, temps, altitude. I'd be curious as to make/model/caliber/powder/bullet....ect

skiking
February 17, 2011, 12:25 AM
Well, I apologize, I think between the 3 of you, you've got me beat, especially in post count. I'm in MT and considering that's it's a little smaller than AZ and much like the midwest thick cover, I see your guys' point. I'd say on the public land I hunt, I'm usually seeing somewhere between 17 and 30 150+ class bucks daily, at very short distances.

You need to tell me where you are hunting and seeing all those big bucks. I usually see 1-2 spikes or fork horns a day where I hunt with 2-3, 4-5 point bucks a season, most of them wouldn't score 130".

Robert Wilson
February 17, 2011, 12:41 AM
I agree with the OP.

I take issue with the "sometimes the long shot is the only shot you get" argument. Firstly because I believe it is too often used to excuse poor hunting skills and secondly because hunters always encounter game outside of acceptable range. There have been times that I have seen game animals "across the canyon" at perhaps 3000 yards. Is "well, I couldn't get any closer" an acceptable reason to take a 3000 yard shot?

I also have a bone to pick with the "well, as long as the hunter is skilled enough to pull it off" crowd because I have met far more hunters who thought they could hit at long ranges than hunters who actually could. This is, as pointed out by other posters, at least partially related to the amount of unmitigated bull**** shown on videos and written in magazines. To many of us have read that 500 yard shots are really no big deal - and more to the point, too many of us have believed it. Yes, 500 yard shots can be made reliably by skilled and practiced shooters. Unfortunately, many "long range specialists" seem to think that spending time at "snipershide.com" and spending a bunch of money on a scope are equivalent to extensive real-world practice. Hence the current scourge of three-legged deer...

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 01:20 AM
wilson-

You managed to read this entire thread and gain nothing from it, then make a post that is completely out of the context in which this discussion was being had! bravo my friend... bravo. this discussion is about whether people can, and should take long range shots if the skill has been tested and the precedent has been set for doing so at the range and in real world situations. If you wanna talk about the minority that screws things up than we can have a discussion about all facets of hunting.. stupid is as stupid does.. thats not what we are talking about.
Hence the current scourge of three-legged deer... really you guys have those? hmmmm.. can you post a picture? or maybe document the percentage of deer that have three legs rather than four! or maybe even five.. sounds like you guys have some really special deer!

no really I believe you, after blowing a leg clear off, they run through the forest and continue to live! it happens all the time!

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 01:22 AM
oh and I would also like to see documentation of one video encouraging people to take shots that are out of their skill level... just one. I've never heard anyone say anything other than to practice till there is no doubt you can take the shot. I've seen idiots butt shoot deer at less than 50 yrds... idiots are idiots... don't lump us all together!

X-Rap
February 17, 2011, 02:14 AM
The myth of wounded deer laying all over the woods is as bad as the one that says they are all caused by shots over 400 yds.

pat86323
February 17, 2011, 02:34 AM
Sam, i shoot a remington 700 in 7mm magnum and i prefer 150 grain bullets. The 150s are pretty flat and i have a couple that i like. The berger 168 is what im working on right now to use for next season. The optics arent anything all that special, a leupold vxII 3-9x50 a nice scope but nothing too outrageous.

I agree with Robert wilson on a few things, not every long shot should be taken. If i spot one way out at 3000 yards i wont shoot until i can get within 500. My thought is if you couldnt get within what you were realistically comfortable with you should pass on the shot, and i have several times with my bow (alot less pressure in the archery seasons as well as rut makes it easier to get close, i also mostly still hunt heavy cover with my bow). Im just not comfortable past 40 yards so i watch deer walk. Its a bummer but that is the right thing to do.

I always try to get as close as possible but i will not shy away from a 500 yarder if its all i can get. Ive only made one really long shot on an animal. I spotted a coyote while on my way out target shooting digging on a prairie dog town. I got out of my truck, grabbed my shooting sticks sat down and let one fly at almost 450 yards. I lost sight of him due to recoil, but didnt see him run off so i went to investigate. I busted his shoulder and took both lungs (i think, i didnt cut him open to confirm) I can very consistantly shoot 4-6" groups at 500 on paper, more then adequate to hit a killzone. Why shouldnt i try it if conditions allow for it? If its windy things change, ect ect.

I also have seen some pretty bad shooting at close range, just last year i watched a guy make a shot on a big herd cow that i was watching through binos. The elk walked right out in front of him at no more then 30-40 yards and he shot. He hit her high on the hindquarters and she took off. He trailed her for about 100 yards or so then hiked off the other way. If the scourge of the 3 legged deer is your argument for for not shooting long maybe we should also argue against short shooting. I would be willing to bet that just as many if not more big game animals are wounded within 100 yards as are at 500. I think that when an animal is close buck fever sets in and increases the liklihood of a bad shot. I know that my first ever shot at a deer was at about 60yds and he was looking right at me. I punched a hole in a tree about a foot above his back. My heart was racing and i screwed up. I have always been glad it was a clean miss and have learned from it.

Davek1977
February 17, 2011, 07:45 AM
I hunt South Dakota exclusively. I've hunted deer every year since i was old enough to buy a tag (12). I've collected at least one buck for every year I've hunted, ranging from tiny spikes to 180 class mulies, with tons of deer in the 150 area. We also have a significant population of whitetails. At one time mulies were the predominant species, but these days its likely close to a 50/50 distribution. I couldn't help but smile when it was said mulies are a bigger challenge to hunt than whitetails. My experience doesn't match that. With roughly even numbers, I've collected exactly TWO whitetail bucks in my hunting career, as opposed to 20 or more muley bucks(. Also, i've never shot a big game animal at a distance of more than 300 yards.....yet am successful year in, year out, without fail or exception. I don't buy the fact that people "have' to take long shots, or they would never get an opportunity. If you sincerely believe that, you need to brush up on some basic hunting/stalking skills. Furthermore, if 450 yards is the "best shot you'll get".....maybe not getting a shot AT ALL would be the smarter choice to make. If my choices are between a marginal shot i "might" make, or no shot at all....I can wait until a better opportunity comes along.....a freezer thats yet to be empty at the end of season and mounts galore assure me that yes, a better opportunity WILL come along if you do YOUR part in it. I'm content at letting a deer walk away @ 500 yards, knowing that a little effort will get me an opprotunity at a similiar deer at half the range (and I doubt you can show me someone who shoots BETTER at 500 than 250). I was taught to wait for the best shot possible, not to take the first shot I "can" take



Ever wonder why there arent many buckmasters shows hunting Mule Deer? Probably because they dont want to spend the money to film a bunch of hunts where you are seeing 1 or 2 deer a day

I'm sorry, but I had to pick myself up off the floor after reading this. Maybe its true for Arizona, but not for all of "Muely Country". On ANY given evening, I can watch 30-40 mule deer feed from my parent's deck. I could have filled my tag any given morning without getting dressed. We had multiple DAYS of seeing not 20-40 deer, but 100-200 (per DAY, not throughout season) deer this past year. Once the colder weather hit, I had days of seeing over 500 deer within a half hour of driving past winter wheat fields. The reason mule deer hunts aren't featured more often isn't because of a lack of opportunity for footage, but because whitetails are found throughout the nation and nearly everyone has an opprotunity to hunt them, . thmaking them "interesting"" to far more people. In some places there are a LOT of deer...as in way TOO MANY DEER.....in some parts of the country, that certainly includes mule deer!!!!!

wankerjake
February 17, 2011, 10:08 AM
We had multiple DAYS of seeing not 20-40 deer, but 100-200 (per DAY, not throughout season) deer this past year. Once the colder weather hit, I had days of seeing over 500 deer within a half hour of driving past winter wheat fields.

This is what we're talking about. It's so easy to say "oh, you don't have to take long shots, that's BS etc" when you see that many deer a day. Even in open country you will have so many opportunities to stalk because you see deer every time you turn around. IT IS NOT LIKE THAT OUT HERE. How is this not understood? I haven't seen 500 muleys in the last 5 years put together, between hunting, scouting, hiking, driving etc.

If my choices are between a marginal shot i "might" make, or no shot at all

And here is the other misconception. The range a shot becomes marginal depends on the skill of the shooter. 400 yards is an impossible shot for some. For those who practice it's not marginal at all. If you guys actually had to adapt to shoot far you would, or you would go hungry more often than not. For deer, in the areas I hunt, I have to. Now if I have a buck at say 450 yards and there is a reasonable chance I can pull a sneak and cut that distance in half without the deer seeing me I'll try. If I can't, that's why I practice for a long shot. The deer aren't stupid out here. They don't have 80 other deer around to watch for them, it's up to them to see danger coming. They get in spots where they can see, and they set there most of the day unless they are spooked out. Ha ha, you guys who have never hunted Coues deer have no clue.

The way I hunt elk is a totally different story. My max range on my elk rifle is 250 yards, that's what I practice to and that's how closer I need to get. I hunt thicker cover and landscape that is conducive to pulling sneaks. It helps that there are a lot of elk, and usually I'm hunting antlerless elk. So yeah, I've "passed up" dozens of elk at 300 yards or more because they are out of range and I'll have more opportunities. Either I get closer, or go find more elk. I have filled every elk tag I've ever had. If that's all I did, I could sit behind my computer screen and call people bad hunters for not getting closer because I'd be ignorant to how things may be different elsewhere.

I would truly love all you guys who think shooting past 300 yards isn't hunting to come buy tags. We'll all camp out, and you guys can see what I mean. My guess is that you would be mad you wasted a trip to AZ because we "don't have any deer." We do have them, but you have to hunt them.

Hangingrock
February 17, 2011, 11:12 AM
Some perspective my deer hunting experiences are limited to Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, and North Carolina. Of those states mentioned the experience is limited to the sections of those states that I placed boot prints (Size 12) on the ground.

With that said yes I have my opinions based on my experiences. What I don’t have is the experience of hunting in as an example Arizona or (Texas where minute of “Beer Can” accuracy applies). A man has to know his limitations. As I’ve said previously the ground you’re on determines the hunt.

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 11:28 AM
I love the 7mm rem mag. my old man has a couple, a weatherby and a savage. I would say it is the best long range cartridge available. The second I believe is 243 win. I just had a sweet stainless barreled AR 243 built. it's crazy accurate, and will consistently shoot 1/2 moa. but it's pretty bulky for long hiking. it's a friggin sniper rifle out of my stand though.

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with john burns. I think he was the original guy from the best of the west. anyway he has a set of technical dvds, And I mean technical. most people I have showed them to just get lost as soon as he tries to explain wind drift and center of mass verses center of pressure. but he has a portion of the set that is based on ethics. he says you should practice to make your shots at a given distance from a bench, and when you can do that every time without fail move to targets in the field in real life situations. When again you can hit these without fail, then your ready for varmint hunting. Then you should practice on non game animals(prairie dogs, yotes...ect). and again when you have mastered this you move to antlerless game, then on to trophy game.. this process takes years. and anyone who tries to run to the head of the line, is only going to have a potential to wound game and ruin their own hunting experience!

Now if you think about it isn't this the same process for any hunting? thnk about it is this not exactly what we with our children? we get them a bb gun,usually before they can even shoot one out of our own excitement. and when they have mastered killing tin can we get a small 22. then practice on paper. when they have developed the marksmanship to kill a varmint, we go squirrel hunting. it is years before they pick up a rifle and set in a deer stand.

anyone who just picks up a rifle and heads into the field all willy-nilly is a problem. and honestly no one in this thread is condoning such behavior. Some people lack the skills to make a shot at many distances and wound aniimals, they also road hunt, sneak on others land, poach, shoot turkeys with deer rifles(not legal here).. these sorts of people should not be allowed to form your opinion on any type of hunting. They don't play by the rules and they are dangerous. again none of us like this mentality!

Art Eatman
February 17, 2011, 12:55 PM
"Minute of beer can"? That's not likely to put meat on the table in the areas in Texas where I've hunted during these last 40-some years.

I've had mule deer seasons where the only shootable buck was out around 400 yards or so. If a fella hasn't trained to be able to make that shot, he better hunt the meat counter in the Safeway.

pat86323
February 17, 2011, 01:02 PM
Ok im done, you guys dont want to understand so im no longer going to try to explain. If you are ever serious about wanting to know "why long shots" put in for a unit 20a mule deer tag in arizona. Heres my opinion, if spot and stalk ending with potential of a long shot isnt sporting, i would argue that sitting in a blind watching a well travelled trail is even less sporting. You ambush hunters make me sick with how unsporting that is. Even worse yet is those of you that sit on food plots or feeders. For crying out loud you feed them to their death......

I dont really believe all of that, but this is what you sound like......anti hunters. If i was in an area where i could sit a path i would. When its phrased like that it does make sitting in a blind ambush hunting sound pretty unsporting. I have no real perspective on where you guys hunt, or the strategies nessisary to be successful wherever they might be. In the same way, you have no idea where I hunt. Please stop acting like members of the HSUS and saying everything is unsporting and cruel. Its ridiculous and stupid. If 100 yard shooting is all that is needed i argue that nation wide we go to just shotgun and archery. Theres no reason to have that fancy 30-06, all that the rifle does is tempt people to make questionable shots with its long range capabilities.

MtnCreek
February 17, 2011, 01:22 PM
There's some guys not to far from here that decided to 'go native' (my words) and hunt with speers. If that's your thing, go for it!

I've seen some people with enough gagets handing off them that they look like they're about to climb into the space shuttle. Once again; if that's what you want to do....

Now there's those (insert bad word here) that ride around in their truck, drinking beer all day hopeing to see something from the road. Those people piss me off !!!

X-Rap
February 17, 2011, 01:30 PM
You summed it up well pat, there are bad shots and bad sports in every disipline but for some reason the distance subject seems to bring out the worst in some folks. Snobs, slobs or crooks are the ones we need to be after and they come in all types.

Hangingrock
February 17, 2011, 04:41 PM
he better hunt the meat counter in the Safeway. We have Lowes and Food Lion here and it maybe cheaper to buy at the meat counter than hunt all things considered.:what::D:D:D

This subject has become way to serious :uhoh:;)

WTBguns10kOK
February 17, 2011, 08:32 PM
no really I believe you, after blowing a leg clear off, they run through the forest and continue to live! it happens all the time!

I've seen a three legged deer live for a long time, and have fawns, too. Anything else you wish to share?

35 Whelen
February 17, 2011, 08:49 PM
Somebody summed it up well a few posts back...just because a 450 yd. shot is your only shot of the season, that doesn't mean you have to take it!
Case in point: Elk season 2009, this is a shot I was presented:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/bullls2.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/bulls1.jpg

Exactly 514 yds. away. The picture doesn't do justice. The bull on the right would have been the biggest bull I've ever killed or even seen in the wild. Elk season comes once a year, IF we get drawn and IF we get bull tags. We drive 500+ miles, tend to horses and mules, endure the cold, etc. The temptation was great, and I probably would have hit him. But I've hunted the surrounding timber and knew if he made it in there, I'd probably never find him. So, I decided to not shoot and instead took pictures and enjoyed the view. Less than 1 hour later I was rewarded with a shot at a huge....4x4...and was relieved that I hadn't shot at the 6x6.
Point is, it doesn't hurt to say no to long shots.

35W

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 09:31 PM
yeah I would like to share the fact that you went from "scourges" of them to "I saw one once"... so how many is in a scourge? This is getting dumb.. you guys have kicked this dead horse to death. no one says that you HAVE to take any shot. we are saying you shouldn't if you reliably can't make the kill. and so you saw a three legged deer did you see it get shot from 1000000000000yrds away? If so did you report it to the game warden, and persue the deer to ease it's suffering? I bet you have no idea, if you saw it give birth. Did some idiot with a twelve ga out bird hunting do it, or a trapper, or maybe even a natural accident, or maybe a person at ten yrds that wasn't even capable of a ten yrd shot.. this thread is so full of assumptions and reading comprehension issues it's dumb. So if everyone here is against taking any shot you can't take, having proved it with practice are you still against taking clean ethical shots? what about john burns he consistently makes 600-1000 yrd shots with drt game. is he unethical? and that 514 yrd shot may have been no biggie for some. I could probably made it on paper, but I too would have passed it up in the field.

THE KEY TO ALL THIS IS KNOWING YOUR OWN LIMITS FOR A CLEAN KILL

wankerjake
February 17, 2011, 09:36 PM
Absolutely it doesn't hurt to not take long shots. especially if you are unsure if you can make it. There is no way I would attempt that shot with my elk rifle, I'm just not set up for it. I can do 250 yards and that's what I can do. I would have passed that shot up every day of the hunt, because I can't make the shot.

But if a guy practices and is presented a shot in a range he is comfortable shooting, and he hunted all season and had a shot like that and knew he could make it...why shouldn't he?

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 09:57 PM
But if a guy practices and is presented a shot in a range he is comfortable shooting, and he hunted all season and had a shot like that and knew he could make it...why shouldn't he?

cause there are three legged deer:banghead:

35 Whelen
February 17, 2011, 10:01 PM
what about john burns he consistently makes 600-1000 yrd shots with drt game. is he unethical? and that 514 yrd shot may have been no biggie for some. I could probably made it on paper, but I too would have passed it up in the field.

You guys are missing the point. It wasn't about whether or not I could MAKE the shot, it was about whether or not it was WISE to take the shot. Like I said, I've hunted the surrounding timber and it's thick. Also another very important element to consider: the wind.
The wind was blowing...right to left as I recall. You might notice that the bulls are in an area that is shielded from the wind. Where I was sitting I was shielded from the wind. But there was an open area probably 300 yds. wide across the basin where the bullet would have been subject to the forces of the wind. So, we have the first 100 or so yards that the bullet is unaffected by the wind, then 300 or so where the bullet is subjected to the forces of the wind, then the last 200 or so with no wind. Anyone wanna guess how to hold to allow for the wind? Hurry...the bulls are feeding toward the timber...
Of course John Burns consistently makes 600-1000 yd. shots...for his DVD's...after all, who wants to buy DVD's where the hunter misses?

I'm telling you from experience in shooting my 600 yd. range here at the house. Conditions have to be perfect for the shot to be easy. And that's even when I know the exact range...but the slightest change in wind direction or velocity plays hell even with a good, aerodynamic target bullet.
If a hunter is totally prepared and possess the skill to shoot at long range if such a shot presents itself, then fine. Have at it. But I loathe people who seek to kill animals at long range just for the thrill of it and for bragging rights. You know, those "hunters" who wouldn't shoot at a 300 yd. deer because it's "too close"?
35W

suzukisam
February 17, 2011, 10:20 PM
Of course John Burns consistently makes 600-1000 yd. shots...for his DVD's...after all, who wants to buy DVD's where the hunter misses?

I will not say he never misses or there isn't any instances where a shot went wrong. you could very well be right about that(I assume this is what you are implying). But with the skill and precision that his shots are made with(the ones we see) you can assume that he can do it with precision.. if you have never seen any of his teaching based dvds you should really look at them before you make a judgement. I would guess his ethics are very similar to you own.. he is a very ethical man. or pretends very well to be one. The dvds I speak of are not for "show" they are technical instruction. not to say they have no entertainment value.
I'm telling you from experience in shooting my 600 yd. range here at the house. Conditions have to be perfect for the shot to be easy. And that's even when I know the exact range...but the slightest change in wind direction or velocity plays hell even with a good, aerodynamic target bullet.
If a hunter is totally prepared and possess the skill to shoot at long range if such a shot presents itself, then fine. agreed ;)
But I loathe people who seek to kill animals at long range just for the thrill of it and for bragging rights. You know, those "hunters" who wouldn't shoot at a 300 yd. deer because it's "too close"?
35W I can honestly say I have never met this sort of person. "braggin" can be interpreted two ways... I spend lot of time practicing and when I have the skills to anchor one to the ground at 500yrds I will be proud that with the dedication I have put into it I accomplished my goal. if that is the case than bragging is in order, because anyone who works for a goal and accomplishes it has the right to brag. as far as the type of hunters you mentioned, I have not met any of those, but I have met many of the other less savory types, so I will take your word you have met those. but I like to assume the other THR's are not any of those!

Steel Talon
February 17, 2011, 10:42 PM
FWIW

Wankerjack, is dead on. I hunt the same general area as he. What allot of people also do not realise is the average size of a Couse deer is about the same size and build as a Great Dane. They are not the Beefy bean field whitetails that get TV and magazine time.

The same type of distances and terrain exist here for our Desert Mule Deer. So the hunter who hunts this type of terrain needs to or should least Garner some experience in shooting beyond 300/400 yards. And having a spotter/helper is critical. Doping the wacky wind in our desert terrain is a MUTHA.

Steel Talon
February 17, 2011, 11:01 PM
About the only thing in az that i can think of thats easy to hunt is javalina, those things are a little "slow", but they are only easy if you can find em. Start putting in for tags or get a bow and get ready to be very very frustrated and come on out. Theres public land everywhere and more game then you think.

Yes the little rocks that move in the tall grass... Use a varmint call and get em fired up..They can come in like a SWAT team snapping and woofin' esp.if they got reds. Cant tell you the times I found myself in the middle of a herd and didn't realize it.

daorhgih
February 17, 2011, 11:11 PM
Every man here is here to learn and to teach. But NOT ethics and morals about killing and eating vertebrate animals. My coffee is not your tea. I'm impressed MUCH by the skills I see here, and hear, and I try to emulate some of them. But if you want to really impress me, stow your long-gun, hang up your trick bows, and take this here Bowie knife and bring us all dinner. THEN, you da' man. Comanche-style.

Art Eatman
February 17, 2011, 11:40 PM
Okay, enough for this iteration of this subject. Rest assured, it will come up again when somebody else begins a new thread on this subject.

A think point: In threads of this sort, there's a lot of, "My way is THE way," and, "My limits in skill should be everybody's limits." All that just ain't righteous...

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