"high energy" rounds


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bloominonion
February 14, 2011, 03:47 PM
I was trying to figure out how the old Federal high energy rounds worked. They had 30-06 rounds that shot in the same realm of velocities as a 300 Win Mag (2880 fps). Supposedly the powder is packed in with a special die to several thousand psi. It seems to me as though it would make the pressures well exceed the SAAMI limits. The only suggestion I have heard as to how they did it, is by using a VERY slow burning powder.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=830253
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=823041

So my main question is, is there a way to re-create these loads as a garage re-loader safely?

Thanks.

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Walkalong
February 14, 2011, 03:56 PM
I find it hard to believe they packed powder in a "thousands" of PSI. Impossible to believe actually.

I can only assume it was a case full, somewhat compressed by the bullet, of some high nitro content slow burning powder, and came up short of advertised velocities.

No way for us without pressure equipment to do it. :)

bloominonion
February 14, 2011, 04:17 PM
I find it hard to believe they packed powder in a "thousands" of PSI. Impossible to believe actually.

I can only assume it was a case full, somewhat compressed by the bullet, of some high nitro content slow burning powder, and came up short of advertised velocities.

No way for us without pressure equipment to do it. :)
Yeah, I was hoping someone had seen or heard more about them. It is a great hunting load, and would love to be able to find a way to acquire more.

I thought the few thousand psi thing was a bit odd.

USSR
February 14, 2011, 06:07 PM
I can only assume it was a case full, somewhat compressed by the bullet, of some high nitro content slow burning powder, and came up short of advertised velocities.

Yep, and you too can do it at home, kids.;) I regularly run a caseful of RL22 behind 190SMK's for 2900fps at SAAMI-safe pressure.

Don

MtnCreek
February 14, 2011, 06:32 PM
I regularly run a caseful of RL22 behind 190SMK's for 2900fps at SAAMI-safe pressure.

USSR, are you talking about a 300wm load?

gamestalker
February 14, 2011, 07:19 PM
Using a good slow burning powder will produce well over 3000 fps loads with the 30-06. H1000, RL19, IMR4350 just to name a few will work wonders for high velocity. Using these slow burning powders will often allow for a compressed load, but not in thousands of PSI compressed. That's just plain redicluous. Compressing that much wouldn't accomplsih anything except to maybe buldge the case and crush the powder. I've loaded 165 gr. bullets for the 30-06 that were above 3000 fps without having to anything special and while still remaining within listed data.

bloominonion
February 15, 2011, 01:05 AM
Using a good slow burning powder will produce well over 3000 fps loads with the 30-06. H1000, RL19, IMR4350 just to name a few will work wonders for high velocity. Using these slow burning powders will often allow for a compressed load, but not in thousands of PSI compressed. That's just plain redicluous. Compressing that much wouldn't accomplsih anything except to maybe buldge the case and crush the powder. I've loaded 165 gr. bullets for the 30-06 that were above 3000 fps without having to anything special and while still remaining within listed data.
So are those standard loads from a manual, or loads you worked up? If so, do I just look up a given load with those, or other slow burning powders?

I would like to try and get some high velocity loads out of my 30-06, as well as my 25-06 as soon as I get it in. The high FPS loads are just a little more fun to shoot, although sometimes less accurate.

USSR
February 15, 2011, 08:15 AM
Quote:
I regularly run a caseful of RL22 behind 190SMK's for 2900fps at SAAMI-safe pressure.

USSR, are you talking about a 300wm load?

Nope, I'm talking about the OP's question about high energy .30-06 rounds.

Don

Walkalong
February 15, 2011, 08:50 AM
If Don says it's doable, I believe him.

He speaks from experience, not guesswork. :)

MtnCreek
February 15, 2011, 09:50 AM
I regularly run a caseful of RL22 behind 190SMK's for 2900fps at SAAMI-safe pressure.

Don,
If you donít mind sharing, how did you confirm the 30-06 rds are SAAMI safe (testing method)? Do they meet SAAMI standards for ammunition or SAAMI standards for the pressures a rifle is made to withstand? I assume these rds are either above published data or in lieu of published data; is that correct?
Thanks.

USSR
February 15, 2011, 10:40 AM
MtnCreek,

About 10 years ago, myself and another guy (MontanaMarine) on Sniper'sHide.com, both had the same idea at the same time: Make use of the .30-06's generous case capacity, by using large amounts of a slow burning powder with a heavy bullet, to generate velocities approaching factory .300 Win Mag velocities. We were castigated by many members of that site for even attempting this, and simply told it could not be done. The bullet selected for use was the Sierra 190gr MatchKing. The brass used was Lapua, and I selected two powders with a similar burn rate to play with: H4831 and RL22. To make a long story short, H4831 was a complete disappointment, generating velocities about 125fps below that of RL22. RL22, on the other hand, was found to be a perfect match for heavy bullets in the .30-06, generating high velocity without any pressure signs. We ran the numbers through MontanaMarine's QuickLoad software, and for my load of 60.7gr of RL22, it estimates pressure at ~59k psi. The 49th Edition of Lyman's Reloading manual lists a 60.5gr load, so this is certainly not an "over-the-top" load. My barrel is a 26" Krieger, and I have used this load for the past 10 years in both Lapua and LC M72 Match brass (they weigh about the same and have essentially the same case capacity). I have also used Norma brass, which is extremely light and has the highest case capacity of any '06 brass that I have seen, and have used over 61.0 grains of RL22 in this brass to generate the same velocity (2900fps). Since in both cases this is a compressed load, I have come to the conclusion that RL22 is the ideal powder for heavy bullet applications in the .30-06, and that you simply cannot get enough powder in the case to get into trouble with it. Oh, and it is now established as fact on Sniper'sHide, that what was said to be "not possible" is indeed possible and easily doable.

Don

MtnCreek
February 15, 2011, 11:01 AM
Don,
That is very impressive.
Thank You Sir.

kingmt
February 15, 2011, 08:06 PM
Supposedly the powder is packed in with a special die to several thousand psi.

You use a lot of leverage with a press & 1000 pound per square inch very much when it is concentrated to a surface area as small as the base of a .30 cal.

This is probably the worst way to measure the force for compressing the powder though. I'm assuming they was just trying to make the story sound better.

gamestalker
February 16, 2011, 09:48 PM
Those are out of the books. I was going to include RL22 as I have seen some compressed load data with that powder for the 30-06 before, but can't remember where that data is from. Back in the day IMR 4350 was the compressed charge of choice, but now there are far more options to get velocity with large charges of slow burners. If you want a good source for load options pick up one of those manuals that is specific to the cartridge. I have a bunch of them, one book one caliber I think is what they are called.
And just for the record, a compressed load isn't referring to a massive degree of pressure to the powder charge.

HankB
February 16, 2011, 10:30 PM
Every rifle is a law unto itself.

My old (post '64) M70 .30/06 has the factory 22" barrel. My standard load with a 180 is 61.0 grains of RL22, good for around 2750 or so with a 180 Nosler, and nearly 200 ft/sec more than most factory 180s give me in that rifle. Fine load, I could go higher, but choose not to.

Looking at my notes, I see that 61.0 grains of Norma 205 gave me 2770 with a 180 . . . and the "maximum" I'd used was 63.0 grains, with no sign of excess pressure. (Norma 205 is long-discontinued.)

Heavier bullets? Haven't tried a 190, but when I tried working up a load with the 200 NP, I found out that the 58.0 grain maximum load recommended in Nosler's manual was too hot for my rifle.

bloominonion
February 17, 2011, 01:58 PM
And just for the record, a compressed load isn't referring to a massive degree of pressure to the powder charge.
Yeah, I realized that part, although it is still good to put it in to double check! Safety is key.

I may have to look into those manuals, that might be a really good reference to have. I guess it is all just a matter of $$.

Also, if it helps, the 30-06 I will be using is a Rem Model 700, and the 25-06 is a Marlin XL7C.

Sunray
February 17, 2011, 07:19 PM
2800 fps was the standard M2 velocity. 2880 fps is around starting loads for the .300 Mag with some powders and bullet weights.
"...165 gr. bullets for the 30-06 that were above 3000 fps..." Not with any Hodgdon sold powder. None of 'em go over 3000 fps with a 165, at max loads.
"...a compressed load isn't..." Nothing to worry about either.

pharmseller
February 21, 2011, 07:18 PM
Shameless plug...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=576125

Since these loads were discontinued I started reloading. I shoot quite a bit so I knew I'd deplete my inventory of factory stuff in a hurry.
I found 59.0 grains of Ramshot Hunter and CCI 200 primers with a 180 grain NP in new Remington brass got me close enought to 2880 ft/sec MV that the difference was insignificant.
In my Weatherby Ultra Lightweight I clocked 2866 ft/sec MV averaged over three 5 shot groups.
In my Weatherby Vanguard Back Country this recipe gave me 2920 ft/sec MV average with the same number of shots.
Both rifles had around 3/4" groups at 100 yards.

I killed a spike bull this year with my hand loads.

P

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