Does a mail order gunsmith have to be an FFL?


PDA






Sniper X
February 15, 2011, 05:06 PM
Or can someone just do work on other's guns without having a FFL?

thanks!

Kev

If you enjoyed reading about "Does a mail order gunsmith have to be an FFL?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
9mmepiphany
February 15, 2011, 05:15 PM
It might have changed, but there used to be a special class FFL for gunsmiths to receive and retain your gun overnight to perform work on it

NavyLCDR
February 15, 2011, 05:15 PM
It depends on their residency and whether or not they are "in the business" of repairing firearms.

If I am in the same state of residence as you, and you like the night sights on one of my guns, and want me to put night sights on your gun - you can give your gun to me, and I can do it for you, so long as I don't make a livelihood from the profit (if any) of doing so. All without an FFL.

If we are residents of different states and you are going to leave your gun with me, or ship it to me, then I would have to have an FFL to receive your gun from out of state. Now, if we were in different states, and you wanted me to do something on your gun while you waited for it, then the paragraph above would apply.

If I am going to make a business of working on guns, or if I am going to receive/ship guns interstate, then an FFL is required.

but there used to be a special class FFL for gunsmiths to receive and retain your gun overnight to perform work on it

Not if both parties are residents of the same state and the "gunsmithing" is only a hobby and not a business.

Sniper X
February 15, 2011, 05:25 PM
Thanks, this is what I thought. I hope the special use law still applies.

NavyLCDR
February 15, 2011, 05:38 PM
I hope the special use law still applies.


??? :confused: ???

Sniper X
February 15, 2011, 05:42 PM
NavyLt, the one 9mm e refered to. I remember hearing about that law. Don't know if it was BS though!

nalioth
February 15, 2011, 06:07 PM
There are no "special classes" of FFL. 9mmepiphany is either misremembering or confused on this.

To receive firearms for repair or from out of state, you must have some form of FFL that isn't a Type 3 (curio and relic). There are no "repair only" FFLs.

NavyLCDR
February 15, 2011, 06:15 PM
To receive firearms for repair

^^^^Only if the repair is done as a course of business (in most states anyway). If my next door neighbor wants me to put night sights on his gun for him, because I have put them on my gun, it is perfectly legal for him to give me his gun, leave it with me for a few days, I put the night sights on for him, and give him his gun back, so long as I am not enganging in the business of repairing firearms and, since he is my next door neighbor, I know he lives in the same state that I do.

In most states, he could also ship the gun to me, as same state residents.

nalioth
February 15, 2011, 06:36 PM
To receive firearms for repair
^^^^Only if the repair is done as a course of business (in most states anyway). If my next door neighbor wants me to put night sights on his gun for him, because I have put them on my gun, it is perfectly legal for him to give me his gun, leave it with me for a few days, I put the night sights on for him, and give him his gun back, so long as I am not enganging in the business of repairing firearms and, since he is my next door neighbor, I know he lives in the same state that I do.

In most states, he could also ship the gun to me, as same state residents.You're slipping, NavyLT. You're usually the one that keeps folks up on the latest "interpretations" by the revenuers.

Their current "interpretation" of the law says that if you do any work on a gun (painting, installing sights, or any other), you require a FFL to do it, no matter if the gun comes from your neighbor or another state.

NavyLCDR
February 15, 2011, 07:59 PM
nalioth,

Please post a citation. The law is very clear:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

18 USC 921:

921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter—

(11) The term “dealer” means

(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,

(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or

(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

I think maybe you are concentrating on the act itself; whereas I am referring to the frequency and purpose of such acts. If the frequency is occasional, and the purpose is NOT as a principal objective of livelihood and profit, no license is required.

nalioth
February 15, 2011, 08:43 PM
nalioth,

Please post a citation. The law is very clear:Okay, now you're being logical. We know what the law says. It's the revenuers that "interpret" it in ways that please the current administration.

Sorry I can't supply a citation. As I constantly lament, I read voraciously, but unfortunately cannot remember every URL where I've read something. I can't believe I'm the only person that read that, though.

karlsgunbunker
February 15, 2011, 10:41 PM
You need an 01FFL for Gunsmithing.
You maybe able to use other types but if you are just a Gunsmith it's an 01.

Bubbles
February 16, 2011, 08:12 AM
If someone as a favor helps out a friend or neighbor with fixing a problem with his gun, that shouldn't require a license.

OTOH the OP's post:
Does a mail order gunsmith have to be an FFL?

Or can someone just do work on other's guns without having a FFL?
implies that the person is referring to himself as a "gunsmith", will very likely be advertising his services, will receive shipped firearms, keep them overnight, and accept payment for his services. That will require a Type 01 license.

dogtown tom
February 16, 2011, 09:32 AM
Be aware that some types of "gunsmithing" will require an 07FFL (Manufacturer) rather than the more common 01FFL (Dealer).

swinokur
February 17, 2011, 09:18 AM
FFL License types
Type Usage Type 1 Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 3 tax stamp. Type 2 Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker Type 3 Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms Type 6 Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell) Type 7 Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, who can also act as dealer, other than Destructive Devices, ammunition and ammunition components other than Armor Piercing ammunition. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 2 tax stamp. Type 8 Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 1 tax stamp. Type 9 Dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (i.e. flash-bangs) requires an additional FFL as a Dealer of High Explosives. Type 10 Manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices, and Armor Piercing ammunition (can act as a dealer). Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (i.e. flash-bangs) requires an additional FFL as a Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives. Type 11 Importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition, NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices, and armor-piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 and registration with the U.S. Department of State as a Broker under ITAR/D-TRADE. To import any DD with an explosives content (i.e. flash-bangs), requires an additional FFL as an Importer of High Explosives. Special Occupational Tax Classes

Class Usage Class 1 importer of NFA firearms Class 2 manufacturer & dealer of NFA firearms Class 3 dealer of NFA firearms Class 1 SOT status requires an importer FFL, either Type 8 or 11.
Class 2 SOT status requires a manufacturer FFL, either Type 7 or 10.
Class 3 SOT status requires a dealer or manufacturer FFL, either Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11.

Guillermo
February 17, 2011, 09:23 AM
The repair person has to have an FFL. The shipper doesn't

For instance, you Smith breaks...you box it up and fed ex it to them and they fix it...maybe...and then they ship it back to you directly.

Just talked to Colt about a reblue 2 days ago. That is what they told me.

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2011, 10:02 AM
The repair person has to have an FFL. The shipper doesn't

For instance, you Smith breaks...you box it up and fed ex it to them and they fix it...maybe...and then they ship it back to you directly.

Just talked to Colt about a reblue 2 days ago. That is what they told me.

That is correct IF you are sending the gun to an FFL, and the FFL is going to do the repair/modification/replacement. However, in the OP's case, he is sending the gun to an FFL for the purposes of transferring that gun to an unlicensed person. Since it isn't the FFL doing the repair/replacement/modification themselves, they are only doing a transfer, the gun must come back to an FFL for the subsequent transfer back to the OP. And this is only because the gun is going out of state.

Guillermo
February 17, 2011, 11:59 AM
However, in the OP's case, he is sending the gun to an FFL for the purposes of transferring that gun to an unlicensed person

I stand corrected

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2011, 07:52 PM
I stand corrected

You did not post anything that was incorrect :D

swinokur
February 17, 2011, 08:24 PM
wow. now there's something you don't see everyday.

:evil:

Jim K
February 17, 2011, 08:46 PM
The OP asked about a "mail order" gunsmith, that is, one who works on guns, but has no shop open to the public. There are a number of specialist gunsmiths who do exactly that and yes, they need an FFL.

As to "occasional" work, I don't see how a "mail order" gunsmith could be an "occasional" worker since he would have to advertise, ship and receiver guns, have guns in his shop for periods of time (not work on a "while you wait" basis), keep an FFL book, keep records for income tax purposes, etc., etc. That does not jibe with someone working on a friend's gun once a year or so.

Jim

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2011, 11:46 PM
wow. now there's something you don't see everyday.

If you search hard enough, you might even find a couple of posts where I said, "I was wrong, thank you for correcting me!" ;)

If you enjoyed reading about "Does a mail order gunsmith have to be an FFL?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!