[laguna0seca]

From my blog (http://www.utahsdi.com/gun-blog). Let me know if you have any suggestions.

There is one argument that never ceases to poke it's head in the world of concealed carry: which caliber is best?

While there are more opinions on this than almost any other aspect of firearms, I view the theory that there is an "ultimate caliber" or "best caliber" as largely irrelevant. I prefer to think in terms of most effective.

My general rule is: Carry the most effective firearm possible.

If I could walk around with an assault rifle slung across my back and a Ma Deuce in the trunk of my car "just in case" I probably would. However, that's not socially acceptable. (And frankly carrying a rifle everywhere gets old very quickly.) So for most of us that means carrying a handgun. We are then left to determine, which handgun is most effective.

Many will try to make the argument that the largest caliber you can carry is the most effective, however this analysis is short sided. While the .45 ACP is a larger, more powerful round than a 9mm, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is more effective. When you choose a handgun you have to consider more than just the ballistics of the calibers in question. A .45 will have better stopping power than a 9mm, but you have fewer rounds at your disposal. In any kind of life or death engagement, you are going to go to slide lock a lot quicker than you think. So, which is more effective? Well... stopping power and capacity aren't the only elements to consider.

What about accuracy?
Accuracy of a round depends on a lot of factors. While a .40 will fly flatter and faster than a 9mm, and therefore have less bullet drop at longer distances, most self defense shootings occur at ranges inside 7yds. So the accuracy of the round doesn't matter as much. What matters with accuracy is how well you can shoot that caliber in a specific firearm. The simple truth is that placement will trump power every time. If you can't shoot a .45 accurately, you shouldn't be carrying a .45. The same logic goes for 9mm. Recoil recovery comes into play when you are making follow up shots, and logically it is going to take someone longer to make an accurate follow up shot with a larger caliber handgun. In addition, not all 9mm firearms shoot the same. Not everyone will be accurate with the same firearm. For example, the trigger pull on a Smith and Wesson 637 has a relatively long smooth trigger pull, which I find rather easy to shoot well. However, if you are a woman, or a girly-man, with dainty hands, you may find the double action trigger pull is too heavy for you to shoot accurately.

You also need to consider what gun is most comfortable to carry on a daily basis. While John had a post a while ago about how none are really that comfortable, some are definitely easier to carry than others. And you, like me, might end up changing your carry gun to fit what you are wearing.

In conclusion, most effective doesn't really mean caliber. It is more about the total package, not just of the firearm, but of you employing that firearm.

[Deltaboy]

I carry nothing smaller than cal that begans with the #3!

[Drail]

Caliber has NOTHING to do with stopping a threat. Where the round goes is what is important.

[Japle]

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

[Davejb]

But I bet there are plenty of cases of the shooter wishing he had placed his shots more accurately.

[BluEyes]

Caliber has NOTHING to do with stopping a threat. Where the round goes is what is important.

NOTHING?

OK, while we all know that a .22 through the heart will take down a BG, it sure is a lot harder to take them down with a .22 than with something larger.

Only hits count, but you want to make sure it counts when you hit!

[P90shooter]

When was the last time you heard of a BG storming after someone once they have been shot?
I've read countless stories about lil ol' ladies shooting an intruder with a .22 and guess what. The BG ran away. Human nature if Fight or Flight and when presented with a case of potentially dying most will flee.

With that said most of those stories mentioned above consist of an unarmed assailant.
Personally I wouldn’t want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Now to totally go away from the point I just made, if a situation like that presented itself to me I would like to have the biggest thing I could get my hands on. Shotgun with a nice buck shot is always my favorite :)

[laguna0seca]

Now to totally go away from the point I just made, if a situation like that presented itself to me I would like to have the biggest thing I could get my hands on. Shotgun with a nice buck shot is always my favorite

This is one of the points I was trying to make.

[David E]

Many will try to make the argument that the largest caliber you can carry is the most effective, however this analysis is short sided.

It's "Short SIGHTED," not "short SIDED."

Also, most 9mm loads go faster than most .40 loads.

The one sentence answer to the question is, "Carry the biggest caliber you can CONTROL that you will actually carry."

[laguna0seca]

It's "Short SIGHTED," not "short SIDED."

Also, most 9mm loads go faster than most .40 loads.

The one sentence answer to the question is, "Carry the biggest caliber you can CONTROL that you will actually carry."

Thank you for the corrections. Grammar isn't my biggest strength.

[Buck Snort]

Use a gun with which you can put repeated shots on target. Misses don't count in a gunfight and may land you in civil court.

[makarovnik]

They are all good but bigger is usually better in the gun world.

[mingo]

I guess if one was to reverse his thinking...I would rather be hit with a marginal shot from a 9mm than I would from a 40cal....just sayin.
mingo

[txhoghunter]

My take:

1. What YOU are comfortable with
2. What YOU have practiced and trained with
(I would not carry a .380 when I am comfortable and have trained with a .45 ACP)

But most important, accept the fact that any gun will kill and that is not a reason to shoot to wound. If your life is on the line, shoot to STOP the threat as fast as possible....not one round to the left leg, one round to the right leg, etc.....but center mass and head if the threat is still there

[CoRoMo]

Too many people have no idea what they are talking about.

When asked why he carries 9mm instead of .40, 10mm, .45, etc. James Yeager said, "No handgun [caliber] is adequate. I want more bullets."

[One-Time]

A 9mm might expand, but a .45 never shrinks :D

[Hoppes Love Potion]

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

How about a homeowner who shoots an intruder and the bullet is powerful enough to go through the BG and kill a family member or neighbor?

How about somebody on trial for a defensive shooting? You think he might be happy he used a .22 loaded with CCI Small Game Bullets rather than a black assault rifle with a 30-round magazine full of hollow-points?

[ForumSurfer]

"No handgun [caliber] is adequate. I want more bullets."

After all the numerous studies and testing I've read about, that is my conclusion. 9mm, 357 sig, 40 nor 45acp are adequate at stopping a fight quickly. I feel equally comfortable with 9mm as I do with 45. All that matters is that I put lead where it needs to go. If I know there will be a fight, I should avoid it. If it is unavoidable...I need a rifle and friends with rifles. Otherwise, I'm fine with 15 rounds of 9mm or 8 of 45acp. I really don't feel under gunned either way.


How about a homeowner who shoots an intruder and the bullet is powerful enough to go through the BG and kill a family member or neighbor?


I've heard all of this before. With the proper rounds, my 223 is not going to over-penetrate any more wildly than my handguns.


rather than a black assault rifle with a 30-round magazine full of hollow-points

I don't own any assault rifles. I do have ar-15's in 308 and 223, however.

[ColtPythonElite]

All of this chatter about gun size, shot placement, BG's fleeing after the first shot reminds me of a tale told by an old guy I met a while back...It seems years ago, he was approached by a BG in a gas station bathroom, who proceeded to try to rob him at knife point. The old guy said he pulled his .380 and pumped 5 rounds into the BG's torso. The BG proceeded to slice the old gentlemans gut open. Yeah, the BG later died. The older guy said it took 120+ stitches to close him up....The guy telling the story said he now packs a larger gun.

[DAP90]

Not to be argumentative but what makes you think that he wouldn't have gotten cut if he'd used a larger caliber, with the same type of bullets, and put them in the same shot locations?

He got cut which means he was in contact range with the BG. The whole shooting/knifing event probably lasted a second or two. He might have shot the guy in the heart and still gotten cut.

[Jonah71]

I can't even make up my own mind on this subject so I'd never be comfortable advising anyone else. I do tend to carry whatever gun I'm most accurate with. Right now the only reason I carry the 9mm instead of the .40 cal is because it's easier for me to aquire the target and keep it there with multiple shots. I'll continue practicing with the G 23 and my old .45 kimber, but for quick access and shot placement the G 26 is it.... unless I get better with any of the others.

[ForumSurfer]

Not to be argumentative but what makes you think that he wouldn't have gotten cut if he'd used a larger caliber, with the same type of bullets, and put them in the same shot locations?

He got cut which means he was in contact range with the BG. The whole shooting/knifing event probably lasted a second or two. He might have shot the guy in the heart and still gotten cut.

Absolutely. We've all read the newspaper stories of people getting shot in the torso with a 45 and walking away. If you can walk away, you also possess the ability to stay in the fight. Shot placement is so much more critical than deciding between 9mm, 357, 40 and 45.

[texlaw67235]

Most gunbattles happen between 7 and 21 feet.Keep that in mind,because very seldom will a Grand Jury will look favorably on a gunfight that takes place at say 50 yards.YMMV.
Texlaw67235

[AKElroy]

We've all read the newspaper stories of people getting shot in the torso with a 45 and walking away.

Actually, we haven't. At least I haven't. Consider this a small challenge -- find one & post it.

[JohnBiltz]

Sure sounds like the incident happened at very close range. If a guy gets close with a knife and wants to cut you, you will be cut. You may kill him but you are still going to get cut.

I have the feeling the most common reaction after a shooting is to get a bigger gun. Most people over estimate what a bullet from a handgun does.

[DAP90]

Sure sounds like the incident happened at very close range. If a guy gets close with a knife and wants to cut you, you will be cut. You may kill him but you are still going to get cut.

I have the feeling the most common reaction after a shooting is to get a bigger gun. Most people over estimate what a bullet from a handgun does.
I was just about to say that exact thing. My other comment wasn't entirely fair.

If I had been cut and required 120 stitches I'd be looking for a more effective gun too. That would certainly be a life changing event.

That said, if I can agree that a more effective gun after an event like that is understandable than I could reasonably agree that maybe I should look for one before the event ever happens; within reason of course.

In this case I still don't think a larger caliber would have been the deciding factor but it couldn't hurt.

[nipsip]

IMO, your CCW should always be the one you practice with. If you practice with a magazine extender you should not leave it off when your carry. When I practice with the CCW, I do it at 25 feet max. I think after 600+ rounds thru my CCW, I feel I am accurate and comfortable. I also practice drawing, until it is second nature. BTW practice has led to changes in location of the CCW.

My CCW is a G33. My fingers are not large and with the practice, I am comfortable and accurate at 25 feet. I do not use the extender or a larger magazine. I carry it in a Remora IWB.

For practice ammo I use the 125gr FMJ from Georgia Arms $0.38 a round including postage. I carry it with the 125gr unicore hollow point.

[ColtPythonElite]

DPotvin,

I never said I thought the guy in my tale wouldn't have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber...I was passing along his story, which if you read what I wrote and took it for what it was, you'd see that obviously he was the one that thought he might not have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber.

[ForumSurfer]

Actually, we haven't. At least I haven't. Consider this a small challenge -- find one & post it.

I'm still looking for it. My google-fu is weak today. I've save the thread and will pm you when I find the article. I remember being shocked that a woman could be shot in the chest with a 45 and walk down the street to the bus stop where she finally sat down.

On a side note, I found a kid that survived a 45-70 to the shoulder on another forum...and it didn't hit anything vital.

Gun shot wounds are strange things. There are so many variables other than caliber. My basic assumption is yes, bigger bullets like the 45 and 40 are better but only marginal better IMO. I would (and do) trust my life and my family's life to 9mm or 38 specials.

[DAP90]

DPotvin,

I never said I thought the guy in my tale wouldn't have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber...I was passing along his story, which if you read what I wrote and took it for what it was, you'd see that obviously he was the one that thought he might not have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber.
True enough, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

[Ichiro]

The most important thing is to have a gun that you can deploy quickly, when you need it.

[JQP]

I have decided to CCW this, because I'm tired of pondering what is or isn't adequate for self defense, and this relieves me of that burden:

The worlds most powerful pistol is the Austrian Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum. It is chambered to fire the British developed .600 caliber rifle bullet originally made by Holland and Holland. This revolver was not originally a full production model but a bespoke one off, built especially for a wealthy Swiss gentleman...Mr. Zeliska.

But if you would like one and I am sure that a few of you 'gunslingers' with a bit of disposable income would, then contact Pfeifer arms ( url near bottom of page ) and they will actually make one for you. Priced at 13,840 Euro's, this equates as $17,316* or £11,722* including Tax ( *at Exchange rate as of 20 November 2008 )

One company still actually make these rounds and they are Kynoch at www.kynochusa.com

The images below shows almost actual size of the .600 Nitro Express round, the bullet of which can go clean through a 10mm steel plate at 12 meters like a hot knife through butter. The cartridge on the end is a .700 Nitro Express, this is currently the worlds most powerful rifle cartridge and its probably just a matter of time until a revolver is developed for it.

.600 Nitro Express ballistics:

900 or 1040 grain bullet 1600 -2100 fps velocity 8000- 10,000 ft.lbs Muzzle Energy or over 4 tons of energy. This 1040 grain bullet can of course be fired in the Zeliska, but a bit more safely, as with the Zeliska the recoil is arrested quite well.

Note: All handgun bullets can never be as powerful as when fired through a rifle, and the .600 Nitro Express is then even more powerful.

http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pfeifer-zeliska-600-nitro-express-revolver-04.jpghttp://www.mcarterbrown.com/gallery/data/500/pfeifer-zeliska-600-nitro-express-revolver-05.jpg

[DanTheFarmer]

Here's my $0.02,

To me the real purpose of carrying any weapon (including your own fists and feet for you martial arts types) is peace of mind. Have you made an informed choice about your weapon of choice? Are you comfortable with your weapon of choice and level of proficiency? If so, you are in good shape.

We can all construct scenarios in which ANY chosen weapon is either adequate or inadequate. My recommendation is to read up to get some facts, get some opinions from experienced people, think about your situation, and then make up your own mind.

For me 32 ACP and above makes me comfortable that I could influence a bad situation to go in my favor.

Good Luck to all.

Dan

[AKElroy]

Actually, we haven't. At least I haven't. Consider this a small challenge -- find one & post it.

I'm still looking for it. My google-fu is weak today.

I guess that's the point. I read the article you PM'd, and the BG in that article was hit in his extremeties, not his torso. Even though he was not lethally wounded, he still beat a quick retreat. By the way, I do not disagree with you regarding the 9mm or .38 spcl. I carry both often & I feel well protected. My argument for decent power is against those that say load is irrelevant to shot placement. I disagree. Both load AND placement are critical.

[mustang_steve]

This is one of those circular discussion where very little gets done.

One side is all about shot placement and really doesn't mind caliber much

The other side is all about MORE POWER! (insert Tim Allen grunting here)

Both sides have their merits...stopping power is good, but so is shot placement and/or ammo capacity.

What I'd like to see is a Glock26 sized .380, with some serious ammo capacity, as much as can possibly fit without an extended length mag. That would be a beast of a defensive weapon for having acceptable power, high ammo capacity and low recoil due to the size of the firearm.

[shep854]

"The one sentence answer to the question is, "Carry the biggest caliber you can CONTROL that you will actually carry."--David E
Since pocket carry is most practical for me, .38 in a snub or 9mm is the most effective caliber. Death ray? No, I have to do my part and get good hits in the right places.

[Frozen North]

Handguns are mediocre at best. You best be a good shot or be able to shoot quickly.

Shot placement, not caliber.

Training not hardware.

[xXxplosive]

Thanks............but IMO.....I'll take the .45ACP over any 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and alike. As you said the .45ACP has stopping power. Maybe it doesn't have 14 round capacity but the idea is to Stop The Threat Now, not after the 12th shot fired.

[PowerG]

No handgun bullet is 100% effective in stopping a fight immediately, even if shot placement is good. There have been any number of instances of suspects sustaining ultimately fatal wounds, who after being shot returned fire and wounded or killed LEO's. The "Miami Shootout" involving the FBI and the two bank robbers is a good example, both bad guys continuing to resist even after sustaining multiple wounds, including a head shot. Determined people don't always collapse, or run away, when shot-some fight until their last breath.

[MaddSkillz]

Absolutely. We've all read the newspaper stories of people getting shot in the torso with a 45 and walking away. If you can walk away, you also possess the ability to stay in the fight. Shot placement is so much more critical than deciding between 9mm, 357, 40 and 45.

So what's the magical shot placement spot to stop a threat immediately?

Everyone's talking shot placement but nobody is giving details. Is it a secret?

[Remo223]

shoot and break the pelvis to drop them to the pavement. That usually stops the threat instantly. If they have a gun, they can still shoot from a seated position. You've got to sever the spine above the shoulders to disable arms. Or a head shot.

That's all the choices you have if they are extremely determined to fight to the last breath. The brain continues to function just fine for 7 seconds with no blood supply. A shot through the heart will take twice that long to drain all the blood out. So you have a fully functioning brain and nervous system for 21 seconds or more after a shot through the heart.

If you have a high cap mag, you can shoot repeatedly rapidly. There is a fraction of a second after being struck by a bullet that a person MAY be stunned and not fully functional. The loud noise of a gun also tends to have a brief stunning effect.

[shep854]

This is why the middle of the chest has been emphasized as the best target area for a defensive shooter; the heart, major blood vessels and spine are bunched together there. Even though they are behind bone, the chance if a disabling (stopping) wound is very high, and it's a relatively easy target to hit.

[scaatylobo]

The LEO's who have some time under their belts will recall that the center mass of a man sized target was labeled K-5 and when asked where to shoot THE answer was = you guessed it K-5.

I am a retired LEO and D/T and firearms instructor and my 00.02 cents worth is.

ONLY GOOD HITS COUNT,so if you can honestly shoot more than 3 rounds FAST and accurate = and hit a 4 or 5" plate EVERY time from 3 feet to 3 yards,I say your good to go.

No matter what you carry,as long as you carry and practice a reload for that handgun.

The real truth is,can you do it = or are you kidding yourself ?.

Only you know [ or dont know ] that answer.

[JQP]

You need stopping power in a CCW. I keep telling everyone this, with all their comments on 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP and other such silliness.

http://www.justpistols.co.uk/m500_003.jpghttp://img.youtube.com/vi/2Qltow04_k4/0.jpg

[ChCx2744]

If you aim for anything between the nipples, the BG is most likely gonna know that he ain't welcome. lol. In all honesty, if the between-the-nipples trick doesn't work, stitch your way up north; that'll learn em.

[shep854]

Interestingly, a bowling pin almost exactly duplicates the critical target area; center mass for heart & spine. This was one reason for the popularity of pin shooting--if you can consistently make solid hits on pins, the odds of doing so in a self-defense situation naturally go up.

[LKB3rd]

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.
__________________

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Imagine someone firing a short barrel .357 with no hearing protection. I could see the blast knocking you off of your focus, and the muzzle flip would take skill to quickly back on target.

[beeenbag]

What I'd like to see is a Glock26 sized .380, with some serious ammo capacity, as much as can possibly fit without an extended length mag. That would be a beast of a defensive weapon for having acceptable power, high ammo capacity and low recoil due to the size of the firearm.


If you had a glock 26 sized .380 then it would probably hold the same amount of rounds as the 9mm...

.380 is just a short 9mm so the diameter of the case is the same and being as that is the determining factor of capacity I would say you would have a weak 26.

The plus to .380 is you can put it in a smaller frame because of the lower pressure so thats what most manufacturers do.

[NMGonzo]

Handguns are mediocre at best. You best be a good shot or be able to shoot quickly.

Shot placement, not caliber.

Training not hardware.

... and diving for cover as fast as you can.

[shep854]

Glock does make a .380, but it's "too small" to meet BATFE's import criteria. It's sold in countries where civilian use of 9mm or other "military" calibers is banned.

" * The Glock 25 is a derivative of the Glock 19, adapted to use the .380 ACP (9x17mm Short) cartridge. The .380 models are primarily intended for markets which prohibit civilian ownership of firearms chambered in military calibers. They are not offered in the United States, due to the characteristics of the gun making it unable to pass import restrictions.[55] Due to the relatively low bolt thrust of the .380 ACP cartridge, the pistol features an unlocked breech and operates via straight blowback of the slide. This method of operation required modification of the locking surfaces on the barrel as well as a redesign of the former locking block. The standard magazine capacity of the Glock 25 is 15 rounds.
* The Glock 28 is a .380 ACP subcompact version of the blowback-operated Glock 25, with a standard magazine capacity of 10 rounds. The factory magazine from the Glock 25, with a capacity of 15 rounds, will also function in the Glock 28."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol#.380_ACP

[txhoghunter]

So what's the magical shot placement spot to stop a threat immediately?

Everyone's talking shot placement but nobody is giving details. Is it a secret?

Central nervous system....but aim center mass, the CNS is a very hard target, especially in a dynamic environment

[rozziboy18]

40mm :neener:

j/k i was always taught to carry as big of a firearm and cal as you fell comfortable carrying......so long as it is above 380.

[mustang_steve]

My thing about the Glock26 sized .380 is practically every .380 on the market is single-stack and the grip is so short, that you're lucky to get 7 rounds in the magazine.

Being able to fit 10/12 rounds in a single pistol gives quite an improvement in capacity, at least that's my thinking behind that statement.

It'd be nice if Glock figured out how to get their .380 domestically amde just enough to pass BATFE criteria....reciever and slide perhaps?


Thanks about those updates on teh .380 Glock models....I want both of them now.....darn you GCA, we need rid of this sporting purposes bullarky.

[NMGonzo]

My thing about the Glock26 sized .380 is practically every .380 on the market is single-stack and the grip is so short, that you're lucky to get 7 rounds in the magazine.

Being able to fit 10/12 rounds in a single pistol gives quite an improvement in capacity, at least that's my thinking behind that statement.

It'd be nice if Glock figured out how to get their .380 domestically amde just enough to pass BATFE criteria....reciever and slide perhaps?


Thanks about those updates on teh .380 Glock models....I want both of them now.....darn you GCA, we need rid of this sporting purposes bullarky.
http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/905/9586095/acf4e59.jpg

bersa thunder plus 15 rounder

[shep854]

There's also the Beretta 84 "Cheetah", that uses a 13rd double-stack mag. It looks like a slightly shrunken 92. Whatshername in "The Matrix" used one.

[ForumSurfer]

My thing about the Glock26 sized .380 is practically every .380 on the market is single-stack and the grip is so short, that you're lucky to get 7 rounds in the magazine.

Being able to fit 10/12 rounds in a single pistol gives quite an improvement in capacity, at least that's my thinking behind that statement.


But it would be the same size as a 19 (or 26 if so desired) with no more capacity. Given the fact that a 19 has little recoil to begin with, what benefits are there? It only exists because certain countries won't allow a higher caliber.

[mustang_steve]

You're looking at it form a perspective of what works for you. 9mm has far higher muzzle pressure than .380, which means regardless of the operational design of the breech, it will have more aggressive recoil characteristics.

I was looking at an improvement on the .380, not a replacement for the 9mm. However, go ahead and play the caliber game...while we're at it, why use a 9mm when a .44mag S&W snubby isn't much bigger? :p

[BluEyes]

I was looking at an improvement on the .380, not a replacement for the 9mm. However, go ahead and play the caliber game...while we're at it, why use a 9mm when a .44mag S&W snubby isn't much bigger? :p

Because the .44 has significantly less ammo capacity than a 9mm?

I guess if 9mm is too much recoil for a guy to handle, then a 380 in the same frame is a good idea. But, in general all you gain is a slightly smaller grip and a bit less recoil compared to a caliber already regarded as having very controllable recoil. Probably why we don't see too many on the market...

[mustang_steve]

Of course I was kidding on the 44mag snubby, although I know someone that does use one as everyday carry (and had to make many clothing compromises to make it work).

I do see the point, I suppose it's due to how much snappier I feel 9mm is. I do have to re-align my sights when firing, which slows me down a bit. Snappier recoil is harder to control without significant amounts of training, which my concern is most of the defensive forearms owners do not do.

We the internet shooters seem to be better about it (or say we are)...but I feel we are in the smallest minority here.

I know I go through about 1500 rounds of 9mm and about 250 rounds of .25acp a year on my two carry weapons. the .25 I'm already well beyond capable at defensive ranges..it's just a box of ammo every now and then to be sure I don't lose familiarity with it, since it's accuracy is very grip dependant...and it slide bites, so I need to keep my callous up.

The 9mm I'm starting to get really good at, but it's been a long road with it....perhaps if I didn't start with an ultra-light pistol to begin with, I'd have it down by now. There was much trial and error to learn how to not get a numb hand when shooting it....once the hand goes numb, accuracy goes to hell since I can't rely on mucle feedback anymore.