Should I expect a Les Baer Custom Carry to run out of the box?


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Balrog
February 18, 2011, 10:31 PM
I am considering a Les Baer Custom Carry. Does this pistol generally run out of the box, or does it require break in?

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Ed from Maine
February 18, 2011, 10:53 PM
It will run out of the box, but with Baers, they say (and I did) just lube it up and shoot 500 rounds, and then clean it, just to settle in and loosen up a tad.

surjimmy
February 18, 2011, 11:00 PM
I talked to Mr. Baer, he told me not to clean until around 500 plus even until the slide won't go back anymore. He said what happens is the gunpowder and the solvent act's as sandpaper and marries the slide to frame. The 4 Baers that I have had did run right out of the box. Don't know where your buying from, but talk to John at proload.com he has the best prices and you won't meet a nicer guy.

CTGunner
February 18, 2011, 11:22 PM
I expected mine to and it didn't. For what you will spend in ammo breaking the gun in you could just go ahead and buy a Wilson or Brown. Many have had great experiences with LB. Some have not. In terms of accuracy LB is hard to beat. However, I believe that LB's accuracy comes at a cost - reliability.

Ed from Maine
February 19, 2011, 11:35 AM
I have had a Wilson, and two Browns, and I still have my Les Baer...

Fleetman
February 19, 2011, 12:06 PM
Generally, they will run just fine out of the box but only a fool would carry one for SD without a proper break-in....one glitch is all it takes to ruin your day.

ANY pistol requires a certain amount of ammo be run through it before you can deem it "reliable"....I trust 500 rounds. I carry an auto every day but you can be sure it has been 100% reliable for me.

If you want reliability right out of the box go with a revolver.....and then only a good maybe! I've never had a malfunction with a revolver but I have witnessed locked cylinders and such.

You wouldn't race your new car without a break-in period would you? Same difference except one will cost you money in repairs and the other could cost you your life!

Hangingrock
February 19, 2011, 03:48 PM
Iím of the opinion that a weapon should run right out of the box.:what: But then thatís just me. If you are into status symbols or being a masochist then why not own a pistol that requires 500rds fired to function properly.:uhoh: There are several analogies used to justify the break in period which sound like excuses.:rolleyes:

ColtPythonElite
February 19, 2011, 04:12 PM
I agree with Hangingrock 100%...If I ever buy a gun that doesn't run right out of the box, it will be going back to the manufacturer for repair on their dime or that will be the last time I buy any of their products and I'll be sure to devote plenty of my time spreading the word about the problems I had.

Maybe this is just a 1911 thing because generally when the topic comes up it's usually about them. I've been around duty weapons of other makes for half of my adult life. I've never seen a LE agency hand out new guns and tell they guy they gave it to they need to burn 500 rounds to break it in and make sure it is reliable enough for service.

EddieNFL
February 19, 2011, 04:13 PM
If you are into status symbols or being a masochist then why not own a pistol that requires 500rds fired to function properly.

Kimber is the only make I'm aware of that suggests a break-in to solve malfunctions; hardly a status symbol. Bear, Wilson, etc, recommend X rounds to mate the parts, not solve problems.

I wouldn't carry any pistol, regardless of the reputation, without firing a minimum of 500 rounds...trouble free.

Fleetman
February 19, 2011, 04:28 PM
I'm not saying a firearm should not work as intended right out of the box.

However, I apparently went to the same school as EddieNFL and several others....a metal burr or tight fit won't cost me my life....I trust 500 trouble-free rounds.

It's not just a 1911 thing....can happen to ANY firearm....that's why products have warranties. Automobiles, firearms, toasters, tv's, etc.

Would I send a brand new truck cross country right off the showroom floor? No way....I'll keep it closer to home for awhile.

Rinspeed
February 19, 2011, 04:33 PM
Baer 1911s run just fine right out of the box.

critter
February 19, 2011, 04:47 PM
I bought a Les Baer. It was SO TIGHT that I was SURE it couldn't possibly work at all. I was wrong! It worked first time every time.

I do have to qualify that a bit. I reload and tried several different bullets, powders, etc. as well as factory. Each and every one worked perfectly---except one. The LB did NOT like one load. That load worked fine in other 1911's I own but not the LB. Never did figure out why.

It took about 800 rounds for the LB to get REALLY SLICK and 'feel' like it was really broken in, but other than the one load it didn't like, it ran anyway.

Really great guns made to shoot a lot. And shoot they do!

Ed from Maine
February 19, 2011, 05:26 PM
I felt ill at ease with Ed Browns, like they were just a tad too far on the status symbol side, and I wasn't that good...my Baer PII, it is like an old pair of boots that are broken in and fit me to a tee, just a real comfortable feeling. I can't imagine ever letting go of it. And it was a lot less expensive than the Browns or the Wilson. Kimbers, I have some friends who swear by them, some who swear at them. Never had one myself.
I was fond of my Dan Wesson, but it did require some trips back to get it where I wanted it, but they got it there. I kind of miss that CCO, it was a good looking nice shooting pistol. But for just picking it up and shooting without a second thought, gotta go with my PII. It is at the point now where it has that patina of use, nothing pretentious about it. It runs and runs , and runs...

Rinspeed
February 19, 2011, 05:33 PM
Seems like this thread is missing something. :confused:






http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/145.jpg

rellascout
February 19, 2011, 05:59 PM
Les Baers are one of the best values in 1911s. Most will run without a hitch right out of the box. Running 500 rounds is like bedding your brakes before you put your car on the track. It makes mechincal sense. This is not just for 1911s. Kahr says run 200 rounds out of their guns to break them in and they say be prepared for a malfunction. My guess is that those who are bad mouthing. LBs have never owned or maybe even shot one.

bobnailer
February 19, 2011, 06:42 PM
I concur, lube that puppy before firing it.

Art Eatman
February 19, 2011, 06:54 PM
Doesn't matter what brand or model: It will take a couple of hundred rounds or so for the various moving parts to wear in a bit. Generally, no more than that. It's just sort of an internal polishing thing. No difference from the first miles on a new car engine; gotta get the rings seated properly, and that takes some miles.

DBR
February 19, 2011, 07:09 PM
I have a Les Baer PII that I bought new around 1995. It came dripping wet with Breakfree CLP in a plastic bag. I wiped the gun down on the outside. I dry patched the barrel and ran about 100 WW 230gr FMJ through it and then I took it to a class that involved shooting about 500 rds in a week. I used CCI 200gr SWC aluminum cased ammo for the class. I patched the barrel with a couple of drops of CLP at the end of each day.

The gun didn't miss a beat. It still doesn't. The only FTF I have had is when experimenting with odd shaped cast lead bullets.

I also have a PII 1.5" guarantee Les Baer gun coated in Black T that I used for several classes following the same protocol as described, it has been 100% for at least 1500 rounds.

Hangingrock
February 19, 2011, 07:11 PM
I wouldn't carry any pistol, regardless of the reputation, without firing a minimum of 500 rounds...trouble free.

Statistically 500 round counts are not required. I believe that 200-300round counts are statistically valid. None the less if you are happy with 500round counts bang away.:banghead:

My point is itís a weapon and a prerequisite is functionality. Its incumbent on the manufacture to provide that it functions as a weapon and not a paper weight. Of course you may fling the paperweight at the object of your affections thus it becomes a weapon.:what:

In The Marine Corps I was issued a WW2 vintage 1911A1, 3-magazines, magazine pouch, holster, 50-rounds in a brown box, and a K-bar thus told go get them ďTigerĒ. :what::uhoh:;)

MaterDei
February 19, 2011, 07:26 PM
I don't know why people are complaining. Frankly, I would love the opportunity to put 500 rounds through any one of these high end 1911s.

Heck, I thoroughly enjoy shooting my plain jane, non-status symbol Kimber Stainless. Shooting a Baer or a Wilson or a Brown would be a thrill.

ColtPythonElite
February 19, 2011, 07:30 PM
500 rounds would be fun unless the gun turned out to be a jam-o-matic.

Rinspeed
February 19, 2011, 07:31 PM
Heck, I thoroughly enjoy shooting my plain jane, non-status symbol Kimber Stainless. Shooting a Baer or a Wilson or a Brown would be a thrill.





I sold one of the first Custom IIs that came out to buy my Baer and I miss that Kimber.

76shuvlinoff
February 19, 2011, 07:51 PM
Quote:
Heck, I thoroughly enjoy shooting my plain jane, non-status symbol Kimber Stainless. Shooting a Baer or a Wilson or a Brown would be a thrill.



I sold one of the first Custom IIs that came out to buy my Baer and I miss that Kimber.


I think I'll frame that, I thought I was the only guy here with a Kimber that has ran well.

MICHAEL T
February 19, 2011, 07:56 PM
I would miss my FIE Titan. Before I will ever miss that long gone Kimber Eclipse I will step up to a Baer. Dan Wesson My top 1911 at present.It replaced the Kimber But always looking to moving on up .

38 Super Fan
February 20, 2011, 01:15 AM
Seems like this thread is missing something.

No kidding. :)

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n602/hackman1911/Baer51SSColt026.jpg

To the OP, a new Baer will probably run great right out of the box, mine did. If you're going to carry it, at least get a couple hundred rounds through it first, you can also loosen up the gun a little more by manually cycling the slide repeatedly.

Mad Magyar
February 20, 2011, 05:16 PM
He said what happens is the gunpowder and the solvent act's as sandpaper and marries the slide to frame.
That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..

EddieNFL
February 20, 2011, 05:43 PM
Statistically 500 round counts are not required. I believe that 200-300round counts are statistically valid. None the less if you are happy with 500round counts bang away.

Five-hundred rounds is my number. If you're comfortable with less, may the force be with you. I'm going to shoot thousands of rounds through it anyway, so it's not like I'm wasting money. My current carry 1911 has a round count north of 25K.

Isn't there a very old, and IMO true, clichť about statistics?

rellascout
February 20, 2011, 05:54 PM
That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....

You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is based on a misrepresentation of what he is saying. He in no way shape or form is telling you not to call him if there is an issue. He is saying that the gun will get better as you shoot it and the parts mate.

How is shooting your gun wasting ammo? My Baer has over 2K through in 2011. The point of owning a gun is too shoot it. YMMV

Rinspeed
February 20, 2011, 05:56 PM
That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..






You obviously know nothing about Les Baers. :confused:

EddieNFL
February 20, 2011, 06:24 PM
"In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems".

You're confusing Baer with Kimber.

Hangingrock
February 20, 2011, 07:27 PM
Itís ironic that people buy into the manufactures position that requires firing 500 rounds fired for the proper functionality of the product produced.:what:

On average you are paying between $1900.00/$2500.00. Then you are expected to spend an estimated minimum of $200.00 to guarantee the pistol functions properly.:scrutiny::uhoh:

The manufacturer passes on to the customer what should have been the manufactures responsibility in the first place out of the box functionality.

ExMachina
February 20, 2011, 07:29 PM
I've not got a horse in this race, but I do have to wonder why a $1900 gun would NOT come ready run?

The "break in" concept I understand on a factory assembled gun but when you're paying for a semi-custom/custom gun, why is it considered ok for that not to be included in the assembly? 500 rounds of 45acp ain't chump change.

ColtPythonElite
February 20, 2011, 08:03 PM
I don't buy that gun powder and solvent acts as sandpaper theory...If that rang true and 500 rounds broke the gun in, then how many rounds more would it take till it was basically "broke"?

Balrog
February 20, 2011, 08:07 PM
The manufacturer passes on to the customer what should have been the manufactures responsibility in the first place out of the box functionality.

Ok so what do you suggest?

Should the manufacturer shoot the gun 500 times for you? If so you get a used gun.

Should he build it so that it will function 100% from the first shot? If so, how do you know that is true until you shoot it?

Either way, you have to shoot the gun to at least know it works.

Ed from Maine
February 20, 2011, 08:19 PM
Me, I like to shoot, I was only to happy to go to the range and shoot my P-II, I was practising the whole time, I got better as it went along, what's not to like? I do the same with any gun, I keep a logbook, if I am not shooting it, for whatever reason, I am selling it. Probly time to lock this thread, doesn't seem to be going anywhere good.

rellascout
February 20, 2011, 09:00 PM
I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread. When you buy a brand new car. Lets say something like an Audi R8. You are not going to drive it off the lot and take it to the track without driving it in relatively tame conditions. You are going to drive it a few hundred if not a few thousands miles first. You are going to get used to how it drives. How it responses. How it brakes. How if corners. As you drive it the brakes will bed. The internal parts will become lubricated and be protected under limited stress. This makes sense because by not properly testing the car could cost you your life on the track do to mechanical failure or operator error. Why would you treat a defensive pistol differently?

Just because you did not put yourself in harms way during that initial break in period does not mean that you did not enjoy the drive. It does not mean those miles were wasted. You did not waste the gas, the oil, the rubber on the tires etc.... Shooting my Baer pistol in in the first 500 rounds were just as fun as the last 500.

Those you are arguing against a "break in period" on a Baer are missing the point. 99% of Baers are not going to experience any sort of issues in that inital 500 rounds. They are simply not their best yet. A pistol like a Baer was built to run 25,000 + rounds before a major overhaul and then it is ready to go for another 25,000+ IMHO.

All guns eventually wear themselves to the point of failure. Some simply take longer than others. I know for a lot of shooter 500 rounds seems like a lot. I would be willing to bet there are a not of shooters even on this board that do not put 5000 rounds down rage a year out of all their pistols let alone 1. For those who buy a Baer to shoot a Baer 500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. It is a proper warm up # which makes sense to me.

I put 200 to 500 rounds through every new gun before it is even considered for any form of "serious" work. YMMV

dcmdon
February 20, 2011, 09:54 PM
That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..
Well then you're missing out.

Les Baer builds very snugly fitted pistols. I have owned (and still own) two of them. Both required a good tug to get them out of battery. Both of them have test targets showing groups of less than 2" at 50 yards.

In practical use, they are both startlingly accurate. At a given distance my Glock or M&P may produce a respectable group. In contrast, the Baer at the same distance often rewards me with a single ragged hole.

My Baers are noticeably more accurate than my Nighthawk that I currently own as well as a Wilson I used to own. Both of which cost about 50% more than that Baer.

Incidentally, both Baers (A blued government and a stainless commander) ran flawlessly out of the box. But I still understand Mr. Baer's desire for shooters to break in his guns before trusting them in their defense.

Don

p.s. To those who would disparage Baers, please, go to a gunshop and put your hands on one. The precision is uncanny. There is NO play between the slide and the frame and less than No play between the slide, bushing, and barrel. None. Admittedly, this is not ideal for all situations. Its not a drench it in 30 weight and roll it in dusty middle eastern sand type gun. But for competition or concealed carry they're great. The only reason I own the Nighthawk is that Les Baer no longer makes aluminum framed guns and I wanted a lightweight 4 1/4 inch gun.

newfalguy101
February 20, 2011, 10:51 PM
Personally, if I dropped that kind of coin and it DIDNT run straight out of the box, it would go BACK with a kindly written letter telling tham not to return it till it DID RUN.

NOTE: I didnt bother reading every reply in the thread, I just jumped to the end and hit reply

38 Super Fan
February 20, 2011, 11:14 PM
I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread. When you buy a brand new car. Lets say something like an Audi R8. You are not going to drive it off the lot and take it to the track without driving it in relatively tame conditions. You are going to drive it a few hundred if not a few thousands miles first. You are going to get used to how it drives. How it responses. How it breaks. How if corners. As you drive it the brakes will bed. The internal parts will become lubricated and be protected under limited stress. This makes sense because by not properly testing the car could cost you your life on the track do to mechanical failure or operator error. Why would you treat a defensive pistol differently?

Just because you did not put yourself in harms way during that initial break in period does not mean that you did not enjoy the drive. It does not mean those miles were wasted. You did not waste the gas, the oil, the rubber on the tires etc.... Shooting my Baer pistol in in the first 500 rounds were just as fun as the last 500.

Those you are arguing against a "break in period" on a Baer are missing the point. 99% of Baers are not going to experience any sort of issues in that inital 500 rounds. They are simply not their best yet. A pistol like a Baer was built to run 25,000 + rounds before a major overhaul and then it is ready to go for another 25,000+ IMHO.

All guns eventually wear themselves to the point of failure. Some simply take longer than others. I know for a lot of shooter 500 rounds seems like a lot. I would be willing to bet there are a not of shooters even on this board that do not put 5000 rounds down rage a year out of all their pistols let alone 1. For those who buy a Baer to shoot a Baer 500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. It is a proper warm up # which makes sense to me.

I put 200 to 500 rounds through every new gun before it is even considered for any form of "serioous" work. YMMV

Good post.

newfalguy101
February 20, 2011, 11:28 PM
....but, if you drive that same car off the lot and the brakes quit working, it will go BACK to the lot as soon as you can get it there.

If you hop in to drive it home, turn the key, and nothing happens, the dealership will keep it till it runs.


So I guess the analogy works, sort of, either it works right off the showroom floor or it doesnt.................so why shouldnt we expect guns to work right out of the box??

Now, I also wouldnt take a brand new gun right off the dealers shelf to a match and expect to win, but, I most certianly expect it to WORK

Balrog
February 20, 2011, 11:42 PM
I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread.

I cannot believe that people don't understand the difference between break in and a gun not running properly out of the box.

If a gun chokes every other shot right out of the box, I don't think break in is likely to help it, and you are just wasting ammo til you get it fixed. This is entirely different from "break in" which involves mating of parts that eliminates an occasional jam. It is also entirely different from reliability testing with a certain brand of ammo.

My question is, will a Les Baer run out of the box or is it likely to have to go back to the factory? I am not asking if the gun needs a break in, or if I need to shoot it a certain number of times to make sure it works. The answer to those questions is yes. I am also not asking if I need to shoot it before I carry it for concealed carry.

Skylerbone
February 21, 2011, 01:03 AM
I believe in break-in periods and running anything new before trusting it. I don't agree with labeling something as a "Carry" pistol that is built with such tight tolerances.

I know Baer prides themselves on producing well built, accurate 1911s. Surely they have the ability to produce one with a more forgiving fit. That or don't label it as something it may not be ideally suited for. (I'm not speaking to how it DOES perform, merely questioning whether it ought to be marketed the way it is).

xr1200
February 21, 2011, 01:23 AM
I own a baer premier II and while it is a very well made gun and very accurate, I personally would not carry it for personal defense carry, as the gun is so tight that if you have to rack the slide quick, you may fail to do it properly in an emergency situation.

When I purchased the gun, I was the only one able to operate slide on the gun, out of 4 guys at the shop. The shop owner thought something was wrong with the gun and wanted to send it back and this was on a used baer with 200 rounds thru it.

One thing is that even though it is very tight, it never miss fed in 250 rounds I put thru it and it never got easier to pull back or operate.

In my opinion baer makes their guns too tightly fit in certain areas where they could be easier to operate and just as accurate.

In comparison my premier II is equal in accuarcy to my kimber gold match,Kimber SIS and gold cup 70 series at 25yrds. Differences in accuracy are very negligable

dcmdon
February 21, 2011, 01:58 AM
XR,

My Premier II, that has about 3000 rounds through it has worked in fantastically. Though I bought it for target and local "combat shoot" use, it is now much easier to manually operate the slide.

My Concept VIII (The Commander) has only a few hundred rounds through it and it still has that stick to it that needs to be overcome to manually rack the slide.

It doesn't bother me. I can do it quickly, but my wife had a hard time with it.

Don

p.s. The safety has also worked in nicely on the Premier II. I actually just cleaned it tonight after about 600 rounds with nothing more than a bit of oil added occasionally and it still looks brand new inside. (But boy is that bushing snug)

Nighthawk and Baer Commander Length Guns, with a lightweight Officers ACP on the Botom.
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx207/dcmdon/DSC_5873.jpg

Premier II Government Length
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx207/dcmdon/IMG_2109-1-1-1.jpg

p.p.s. My Nighthawk Custom is a slicker feeling gun. Its nicely rounded and the action, while not any smoother, requires less effort to operate.

In summary, I'd say that I'd trust the Les Baer to function properly when brand new, but would probably want to shoot it enough to make the action easier to operate, prior to carrying it. For range/competition use its nearly perfect. The other weakness that Baers exhibit is that they are traditionally profiled 1911s. in other words they're sharp. Even the guns with their "tactical" dehorning, are sharp compared to my nighthawk.

So for now, my Baer is a range toy/HD gun. My nighthawk, just carries easier, so it comes with me almost every day. And while the Nighthawk is not nearly as accurate as the Baer, its much more accurate than any Glock or M&P I've ever owned. In fact the Nighthawk compares favorably with every semi-auto I've ever owned as far as accuracy is concerned, except for the Baers.

Sunray
February 21, 2011, 02:51 AM
"...require break in?..." No firearm requires breaking in.

1858
February 21, 2011, 05:09 AM
I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread.

No kidding!! Recently, 9mmepiphany posted a link to Hilton Yam's website where he talks about selecting a 1911 for duty use (http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html). He states the following:

"You really need to shoot the gun for 1000-1500 rounds, to include about 500 or more rounds with duty ammunition to have a good feel for what the gun is doing. Do not just put "200 flawless rounds" through the gun and declare that it is "completely reliable." That is not a statistically significant cycle of service. You may as well tell a race car driver that his car is good for that 500 mile race after you drive it around the parking lot once. You need to be able to fire 1000-1500 rounds through the gun without any malfunctions. Cleaning and lubrication every 200-400 rounds is an acceptable interval of maintenance while evaluating the weapon for suitability."

This has now become my criterion for convincing myself that a semi-auto handgun is "completely reliable". I have a P220 with more than 15,000 rounds through it, mostly 185gr LSWC reloads that NEVER malfunctions ... I think that one is good to go. My Kimber TEII is rapidly approaching 1,500 trouble-free rounds in matches so will soon get the nod of approval.

And yes, 1911s most certainly do require a break in ... semi-custom ones anyway based on my experience. My Kimber ran great out of the box with factory 230gr FMJ but the slide to frame fit wasn't tight at all. My Ed Brown was so tight that I had quite a few incidents in the first 20 or so rounds where I had to tap the back of the slide to make sure it was in battery. A friend that I shoot rifle and pistol matches with recently bought a Wilson Combat CQB and his son bought an Ed Brown Special Forces. Like my Ed Brown, both guns were very tight and took a few rounds before they started to run properly but it wasn't many. Wilson Combat specifically told my friend not to clean the pistol for 500 rounds.

45crittergitter
February 21, 2011, 01:03 PM
OK, if you have never had a new Baer 1911, then you shouldn't be posting answers here, only questions. :)

In my experience, a new Baer is so tight you can't open the slide without mechanical help (like the edge of a table), but it will run perfectly on even crappy old standard power reloads with lead SWCs, beginning with the first round, and continue without fail for ~15 years (and counting). The only load that I have found that is not reliable in some Baers is the CCI shot load. It will also shoot exactly to point of aim out of the box, with the load specified to Mr. Baer.

That being said, your experience may vary, and I certainly don't advise trusting it with your life until it has proven itself to your satisfaction, regardless of whose name is on the side.

Hangingrock
February 21, 2011, 03:31 PM
Ok so what do you suggest?

What is your intended purpose/usage/need? Punching holes in paper is a lot different than self-defense.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/Colt_XSE_Oct2008/ColtXSE50yds_edited.jpg
Colt XSE Govt Model @ 50yds shot traditional off-hand standing position. The Colt is not so tightly fitted as to be a strictly a target pistol. (No I do not shoot groups like this every day @ 50yds but often enough that itís not a fluke occurrence)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_2658.jpg
S&W 4506 @ 25yds shot rapid firing standing position. A service grade pistol that has functioned from day one with a round count in excess of 25,000 rounds. No matter the load or bullet style.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/G21/G21XS25Yds_edited.jpg
Glock 21 with XS-Big Dot sights @ 25yds shot rapid fire standing. No functionality problems at all and no break in period required.

The Colt XSE tends to be more accurate than the S&W and Glock. On the other hand the service grade S&W and Glock have had absolutely no functionality problems out of the box from day one and acceptable accuracy.

Skylerbone
February 21, 2011, 11:15 PM
I think the point being made is don't advertise a Ferrari as the ideal family car. Don't call it a daily driver to an Alaskan. It is what it is whether clothed as a sheep or not.

That is my opinion on the matter and I don't much care for those who would prefer to stifle it as a non Baer owner. I'll bet none of the above posters own a race car yet we discussed them none the less.

Balrog
February 21, 2011, 11:18 PM
This has now become my criterion for convincing myself that a semi-auto handgun is "completely reliable". I have a P220 with more than 15,000 rounds through it, mostly 185gr LSWC reloads that NEVER malfunctions ... I think that one is good to go. My Kimber TEII is rapidly approaching 1,500 trouble-free rounds in matches so will soon get the nod of approval.


I would be worried a gun with 15,000 rounds through it is due for a failure. Have you changed the springs in it? One broken spring could ruin your day and cost you your life. If you have changed the springs, then you better run another 15,000 rounds through it to make sure those springs work right, but when you do, you just have to repeat the spring change and start over again anyway.

Just because you put a certain number of rounds through it, doesn't mean its not going to fail on the next shot.

I think rather than coming up with completely arbitrary numbers regarding reliability, we might all be better off practicing clearing malfunctions, and simply assume that all man made items will eventually fail, generally at the worse possible time, and learn to deal with it.. Even if your gun runs perfectly at the range, there is no guarantee you won't jam it during a real event because of a poor grip or stance.

1858
February 21, 2011, 11:39 PM
If you have changed the springs, then you better run another 15,000 rounds through it to make sure those springs work right, but when you do, you just have to repeat the spring change and start over again anyway.

First off, I've never had a spring break but I've had some wear out. I ran the original 16lb spring in a P220 for more than 15k rounds without issue. Most of those rounds were reloads so that's possibly why the spring lasted so long. Second, I don't agree that a pistol needs to be proven every time a new spring is installed. The 1911 is probably one of the most sensitive pistols to spring rate, so once you find a spring that works, a new spring of the same rate will also work, particularly if you buy quality springs.


Just because you put a certain number of rounds through it, doesn't mean its not going to fail on the next shot.

So where does that logic end? Which pistol would you grab to defend your life. One that you've shot 15k rounds through without a single failure, or one that you just bought that is new in box.

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 12:21 AM
One that you've shot 15k rounds through without a single failure, or one that you just bought that is new in box.

I would rather it not have 15K rounds through it. Sooner or later everything breaks.

You know what happens when a part fails on a gun with 15K flawless rounds through it? The gun fails, and you die.

You know what happens when a gun with 50 rounds through it jams because it doesn't work right? The gun fails and you die.

dcmdon
February 22, 2011, 01:13 AM
Just a statistical observation. With factory ammo, neither of my Baers or my Nighthawk have ever failed to go band, extract and feed a new round, every time I've pulled the trigger.

Thats Glock like reliability folks.

Don

p.s. Although, I'm over 30K rounds with no malfunctions with my Glock 34. Ha. Another thought is that the Glock is simply a tool. With 1911s, there is a little bit of actual craftsmanship and even "art".

Rinspeed
February 22, 2011, 06:24 AM
Just because you put a certain number of rounds through it, doesn't mean its not going to fail on the next shot.





Sorry but that's just a stupid thing to say. A Sig with 15,000 rounds through it is just getting broken in. Better stay home on the couch if you're that worried about parts failing. :confused:

1911Tuner
February 22, 2011, 06:46 AM
Should you expect it to run out of the box?

Yes. The 1911 isn't exactly a Swiss watch. It's a hundred years old. It was designed to function, and if it's correctly built, it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 12:23 PM
Sorry but that's just a stupid thing to say. A Sig with 15,000 rounds through it is just getting broken in. Better stay home on the couch if you're that worried about parts failing.

First, are you saying my statement is not true? If it is not true, then you must believe metal parts will never fail. Is that what you are saying. If it is true, then how can it be a stupid thing to say?

Why are you more concerned that a part will fail to work properly after 100 rounds than after 15,000?

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 12:49 PM
I love it Balrog is trolling his own thread. LOL

Every single mechinal thing could fail at anytime. For me reliability is a proven track record. It is repeatability. If a gun has gone off 15K times in my hand without a hitch then due to its proven track record of repeated performance coupled with durablity in construction I am more inclined to trust it than something I just took out of the box. YMMV.

For me the Les Baer TRS I own is just that. It is built for the long haul. It has never failed me in anyway. I maintain it check its tolerances often enough to know that it is in spec. Does that mean it will never fail? No of course not but it does lessen the chances and in the end that is all one can ask.

You asked the question should a Baer run out of the box. 99% of actual Baer owners have told you yes yet you are arguing against them. I really do not understand it. What is you point? You asked a question and Baer owners answered it. :banghead:

memphisjim
February 22, 2011, 01:00 PM
It's a 1911 so no break it in then clean religiously if you want it to be semiautomatic

1858
February 22, 2011, 02:34 PM
If it is not true, then you must believe metal parts will never fail.

It depends on the part. You need to identify which parts are the most likely to fail (based on their function) and prepare accordingly.

Many here are familiar with this information, but if you want to read a good article on the 1911, I highly recommend this one by Hilton Yam.

http://www.10-8consulting.com/article_page.php?articleID=13

I will readily admit that I hadn't realized that it's not good to drop a round in through the ejection port. I honestly don't know if I've ever done that, maybe with a snap cap, but I can't be sure. Regardless, I won't be doing that.

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 07:03 PM
You asked the question should a Baer run out of the box. 99% of actual Baer owners have told you yes yet you are arguing against them. I really do not understand it. What is you point? You asked a question and Baer owners answered it.

I am not trolling my own thread. I asked if the gun would run out of the box, not whether it would still be running after 15,000 rounds. There was no reason for that example (and it was a Sig for crying out loud, not a Les Baer 1911) to have even been discussed in my thread.

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 07:06 PM
I am not trolling my own thread. I asked if the gun would run out of the box, not whether it would still be running after 15,000 rounds. There was no reason for that example (and it was a Sig for crying out loud, not a Les Baer 1911) to have even been discussed in my thread

And what part of your question has not been answered?

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 07:11 PM
Its been answered, but people perpetuated the thread with other questions. If a moderator wants to close it, thats fine with me since people have started adding irrelevant comments.

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 07:12 PM
Its been answered.

Time to close the thread then.... LOL

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 07:14 PM
Yea its OK to close it, but if it is bothering you so much why do you keep posting in this thread???:uhoh:

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 07:17 PM
It does not bother me at all. I find it funny which is why I stated LOL.

EddieNFL
February 22, 2011, 07:27 PM
Am I the only one who does NOT think 15K is a high round count? I have more than a few 1911s with significantly higher round counts. The only broken parts I've experienced were early on in low/mid-range models.

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 07:45 PM
Am I the only one who does NOT think 15K is a high round count?

I don't know, that sounds like a great thread topic.

clutch
February 22, 2011, 07:47 PM
If a gun is fitted to the tight side you are going to have to break it in for sure. If it is sloppy, you still have to shoot it to see if it has the right slop built in.

I've never owned a Les Baer and likely never will. I have peened the rails on a USGI 1911 and then shot it until if was both tight and reliable. I suspect Les just makes it tight in the first place.

Recently I bought a White Oak AR15 upper. It came tight, it is still tight but it is breaking in with me just puling the bolt back enough to cock the hammer to dry fire.

I can live with it, tells me they got it very close, some break in required.

I also have a S&W M&P40c. It is reliable, it shoots every time, it never has been tight and I doubt any M&P 40 is. Hundreds of rounds later, I am now starting to trust it based on previous performance.

Running a bunch of rounds to break in / check function on/of your life saver is just being smart.

Clutch

Balrog
February 22, 2011, 07:54 PM
Running a bunch of rounds to break in / check function on/of your life saver is just being smart.

I don't think anyone is arguing that!

dcmdon
February 23, 2011, 11:17 PM
Should you expect it to run out of the box?

Yes. The 1911 isn't exactly a Swiss watch. It's a hundred years old. It was designed to function, and if it's correctly built, it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.
Baers kindof are like Swiss watches. All the parts are hand fitted in a way that JMB never imagined they would. Thats why they out shoot original 1911s by a huge margin.

Just to make it perfectly clear. I have never fired a better shooting 1911 than a Baer. Wilsons or Nighthawks may handle beter, slicker dehorning, nicer textures or whatever, but when it comes time to put lead downrange, there is nothing better than a baer.

If you think I'm nuts, ask almost anyone who owns one.

With all that said, any 1911 will suffer from the basic flaws in its design. The barrel toggle, spring steel extractor and barrel locking lugs are all items that have either been eliminated or improved on more modern guns.

Camming the barrel eliminates the link and works just as well.
Large articulated extractors with separate springs can last the life of the gun
Locking the barrel on the ejection port is simpler and cheaper. Simple is always good.

Tacbandit
February 24, 2011, 12:01 AM
Quote:
"I think I'll frame that, I thought I was the only guy here with a Kimber that has ran well."

No...there's three of us...lol

Hey, it doesn't matter what status symbol or icon you carry or shoot, or what you paid for it, or how pretty it is, or how it makes your paper targets look...Regardless of who made it, if you don't run a substantial # of rounds through it before you carry and trust your life to it...you're gambling. Substantial is a relative term...it's what you think is sufficient. I may not think 500 rds is necessary as a proving ground, but I'm not gonna put down the guy who does...

benderx4
February 24, 2011, 12:13 AM
Bought a Baer TRS brand new, and it has run awesome right out of the box. Good luck with yours!

Ed from Maine
February 24, 2011, 06:37 AM
There is an interesting article in the March 1911 issue of The American Rifleman, entitled "The Evolution of the Custom Combat .45", which describes the history and evolution through several developing trends of the Kimber, Springfield, Wilson, Nighthawk, Brown and Baer, etc. semi-custom production 1911s, and what makes them different. Provides a good context for this thread.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 24, 2011, 07:18 AM
Should I expect a Les Baer Custom Carry to run out of the box?
In thinking this over for a while, I have come to the following conclusion:
No, I do not think your Les Baer Custom Carry will run out of the box.

You are going to have to use your hands to pick it up out of the box. Maybe, someday, a pistol will act on its own, however we have a way to go before that ever comes to light.

1911Tuner
February 24, 2011, 08:46 AM
With all that said, any 1911 will suffer from the basic flaws in its design. The barrel toggle, spring steel extractor and barrel locking lugs are all items that have either been eliminated or improved on more modern guns.


A basic lack of understanding have you. Explain I will.

The "Barrel Toggle" is called the link. Its sole purpose is to get the barrel out of the slide so that the slide can pass over the top without tearing the locking lugs off.

The spring steel extractor was done in order to simplify the design, and make it less likely that a part would be lost during service in the field. It was common for a part to be designed to function as its own spring in those days...and it still works well. Spring-tempered steel also allowed the gun to be single-loaded in the event of a lost or damaged magazine...and it worked well.

The upper locking lugs are present on most of today's designs. The Beretta 92 Series is the notable exception..and that's nearly a direct copy of the Walther P38. Most of them utilize only one instead of three...but they're there. In fact, the "New/Improved" Glocks and Sigs actually have Browning's fingerprints all over them. They all operate on the tilt barrel, locked breech, short recoil principle.

Neither is the Browning High Power Browning's attempt to correct the mistakes that he made with the 1911. He died in 1926, so he never saw a High Power. Like the 1911, the High Power was designed for a military entity, and...like the 1911...it was designed with certain features requested by that entity. Had the French asked for a grip safety, the High Power would have had one, and it would be wearing one today.

Incidentally, the High Power originally had an internal, spring steel extractor similar to the 1911's...and it remained for several years. The external came about later, and most likely as a cost-reducing measure...but not because it was superior. If both are well-designed, both will work equally well.
The strength of the internal type is that it's adjustable for tension. The only way to do that with the external is to cherry-pick the coil springs...and that can get a little tedious. In that respect, the internal is vastly superior.

mes228
February 24, 2011, 08:53 AM
Yes, your Baer should run out of the box. I've had several Les Baers, some new & some used. All ran perfectly for me. I suggest you lube with RemOil (or equlivant) and "Sentry Hi-Slip Grease" (the real deal. Approved by and used by Seal Teams and Spec. Forces). With the grease used on rails, locking lugs, bushing/barrel and other "wear points". Using this combination I can store a pistol for several months, pick it up and run several hundred flawless rounds. I took five pistols to the range last week, only one had been pretty much lubed since November or cleaned. All had been shot since November but most not cleaned. Four shooters fired several hundred rounds with not one burp of any kind. In my opinion, Sentry Hi-Slip Grease is the best lube product available. We fired Rem. Golden sabers, Fed. Hydra Shock, Win. White Box, PriviPartisan, Fiocchie, inexpensive Rem. HP's in the 100 rd. box, inexpensive Win. HP's in the 100 round box. Not one failure in just about a thousand rounds. Darn near made me cry at the ammo expense and paying for range time. I hate to think of the cost of replacing the ammo. My wife thinks I go to the range and pay $10 an hour for range time she has no idea of what ammo cost. If she knew she might not be so agreeable to my shooting excursions (grin).

Tacbandit
February 24, 2011, 11:45 AM
Quote: from Friendly, Don't Fire...
"In thinking this over for a while, I have come to the following conclusion:
No, I do not think your Les Baer Custom Carry will run out of the box.
You are going to have to use your hands to pick it up out of the box. Maybe, someday, a pistol will act on its own, however we have a way to go before that ever comes to light."

May be the best advice yet, on this topic...
Tac

dcmdon
February 25, 2011, 11:29 AM
1911 Tuner,

All the modern designs you listed do have the mark of a classic JMB design, the Hi-Power.

When JMB designed the HP a few years later he improved the bbl tilt mechanism and removed the link (sorry abot the toggle reference, I was having a bad day)

I understand that the spring steel extractor was a reasonable decision, but it can and has been improved upon. My highest round count center fire gun is a Glock 34. Its got over 30,000 rounds through it and is still on the same extractor.

The same can't be said of any 1911 spring extractor that I know of. In fact many of the top competitors in single stack use a mechanical articulated extractor that fits in place of the spring steel one. The name escapes me now.


Don

1911Tuner
February 25, 2011, 02:13 PM
When JMB designed the HP a few years later he improved the bbl tilt mechanism and removed the link (sorry abot the toggle reference, I was having a bad day)

Browning didn't design the High Power. He never even saw one. He designed the Grande Rendement...and I'm pretty sure that it had a barrel link...and Dieudonne Saive used that as a springboard to design the High Power...and it had an internal extractor.


I understand that the spring steel extractor was a reasonable decision, but it can and has been improved upon. My highest round count center fire gun is a Glock 34. Its got over 30,000 rounds through it and is still on the same extractor.

That depends on what the role of a given pistol is. If I'm far from home, and I need to service the extractor...I don't want to be dinking around with a tiny pin and coil spring.
That's the beauty of the internal spring extractor. No specialty tools required to remove it for service.

I've got a range beater that's got an extractor in it that I cannabalized several years ago from a badly worn 1918 USGI Colt. It's probably seen 50,000 rounds since I installed it, and...aside from removal for cleaning every so often...it hasn't been touched, and it still works.

The same can't be said of any 1911 spring extractor that I know of.

See above. I get the same performance from all my pistols. The last extractor that I replaced had about 75,000 rounds past it...and it still worked. I put it in the range box for a spare that I'll probably never need. I rarely have extractor trouble, and when I do...all I have to do is bend'em a little for tension. Takes about 3 minutes for the whole job.

In fact many of the top competitors in single stack use a mechanical articulated extractor that fits in place of the spring steel one. The name escapes me now.

Yep. I know the one. They work well until one of the two coil springs goes south. I replaced the springs on one for a local guy last year. Never could get it workin' right again...so he gave up and had me fix him up with a Wilson Heavy Duty that cost him less than half what he gave for the AFTEC.

Properly designed, there really isn't a dynamic difference brtween the internal and the external. They both do the same job. In a pistol that's functioning correctly, the extractor just isn't under very much stress. I've seen several 1911s and High Powers run pretty well without an extractor even being there. Ejection was a little erratic...but they ran.

But...properly designed is the operative term. Some are. Some aren't...as a few recent clone makers have discovered.

Me? I like being able to remove my extractors without needing a tiny punch, and I like not havin' to worry about a miniature spring bouncin' off into the 4th dimension. I like being able to completely disassemble a 1911 pistol in about a minute...and reassemble it in about two...without tools. I'll probably never need to...but nice to be able to in case I ever do.

At any rate, it's a debate that will rage on without a clear consensus on which is better.
Everybody's got their 'druthers.

dcmdon
February 26, 2011, 07:27 AM
1911tuner,

Thank you for the information. Its interesting, I know so many people who have had problems with their extractors. (I shoot in a local match every week and probably 60% of us use 1911s)

What you are saying though about it being properly fitted makes a lot of sense. I'm assuming that you mean something that is properly fitted and contoured (If I remember my AGI video properly) as well as properly tensioned.

I'm relatively new at playing with 1911s, but it would seem to me that if the extractor tension isn't set right, the thing will fatigue and fail.

I think we will both agree that this is the main difference between a 1911 and newer (not necessarily better) designs. That the 1911 requires a skilled person with understanding and finesse for service.

Whereas something like a Glock or an M&P can pretty much be maintained by a neanderthal with a punch and basic mechanical skills.

1911Tuner
February 26, 2011, 08:02 AM
I'm relatively new at playing with 1911s, but it would seem to me that if the extractor tension isn't set right, the thing will fatigue and fail.

What causes them to fatigue and fail is improper feeding...loss of control usually on the last round...and the resulting push feed that forces the claw to climb the case rim...or "Snapover" as it's sometimes called. It's a magazine problem, and most prevalent with 8 and 10-round magazines with smooth-topped followers and/or weak springs. My extractors don't lose tension and they don't break.

Many "New/Improved" things are gimmicks, and one of the oldest marketing strategies around is to first convince the prospective buyer that he "needs" what they have...and then sell it to him.

i.e. "If your pistol doesn't have this extractor, you need this pistol."

"Shock buffs save your frame. You need this shock buff."

"Full-length guide rods keep your spring from kinking. You need a full-length guide rod."

See the trend? Marketing.

The question is asked:

"What is it for?"

The answer is...too often:

"Why...to sell, of course!"

R0CKETMAN
February 26, 2011, 08:03 AM
Late to the party, but my Baer CC had a few FTRTB in the first 50 rounds and 100% reliable for the last 3k.

dcmdon
February 26, 2011, 07:08 PM
I agree with you that all of those doodads don't improve on the basic 1911 design.

My two baers, my Nighthawk and my Colt are all standard JMB parts.
No shockbuff, FLGR or special extractor.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate modern designs that are clearly easier to manufacture in reliability.

Mad Magyar
February 26, 2011, 09:01 PM
"Shock buffs save your frame. You need this shock buff."


I guess you won't be invited to Bill Wilson's next birthday party...:D I read where he's made a fortune off those "do-dads".....
Tuner, you gave good advice...

Peter M. Eick
February 27, 2011, 10:47 AM
Back to the original question.

Mine Baer's all ran out of the box. I had a few studders with my 1.5" 10mm HWML but my PII's all worked perfectly.

Just use them and enjoy the tight hard fit of the gun. If you don't want a hard fit gun, but a Wilson or some similar custom gun.

2ndamd
February 27, 2011, 09:52 PM
No, You can not expect your Baer to run out of the box. It needs 500 rounds first and 1000 rounds would even be better.

dcmdon
February 28, 2011, 10:15 PM
No, You can not expect your Baer to run out of the box. It needs 500 rounds first and 1000 rounds would even be better.
Uh, you're kidding right?

Do you even own one?

Have you even read the other responses in this thread?

dcmdon
February 28, 2011, 10:18 PM
I guess you won't be invited to Bill Wilson's next birthday party...:D I read where he's made a fortune off those "do-dads".....
Tuner, you gave good advice...
Thats funny.

When I first purchased my PII it had a shock buff in it. As a lefty I don't use the slide release, preferring to overhand "slingshot" the slide.

My PII was giving me some trouble with that. I called Baer and got Les on the phone. He told me to remove the shock buff. I hadn't yet disassembled the gun so I didn't even know hit had one.

Les told me he thought they were useless but thought that people wanted the guns to come with them.

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