Calling all POF Owners


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460Kodiak
February 21, 2011, 01:11 AM
So I want to pick up a high quality piston driven AR15. All the reviews I have read and watched on POF rifles have been good. The only thing throwing me off is the price tag. I'm looking at the 415 with a 14.5 inch barrel, and integrated flash suppresor. (Thus it will be of legal length. No tax stamp needed.) So is a POF worth the $2000 price tag I am looking at? How do they compare to Noveske or LWRC. I've looked at a Ruger SR556 and they are nice, but the POF just seems a step above.

Opinions? Feedback?

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mc223
February 21, 2011, 02:51 AM
Dont have one.
Dont want one.

I just have the opinion that there is no advantage to piston drive over DI.

There are much better deals out there that would allow you to have change left for ammo and accesories.

Sunray
February 21, 2011, 03:06 AM
No advantange to a 14.5" barrel either. Too much velocity loss.
The Ruger SR556 is a marketing thing. Mind you, so is any 14.5" barreled .223.

1858
February 21, 2011, 03:43 AM
460Kodiak, I have two POF ARs, one is a P415 and the other is a P308. Even if you discount the gas piston system, the POFs have a lot of desirable features (see below). If you need an AR that runs without any lubrication with excellent reliability and accuracy, maybe a POF is for you. If you don't need those features, a Noveske or LMT or a number of other top tier ARs would serve you well. It's not always about need though ...

Barrel:
7.25”, 9.25”, 11.5”, 14.5”, 16”, 16.5”, 18” heavy contour, hand-lapped button twisted rifled, fluted to reduce weight and heat
4150 Mil-B-11595 chrome-moly-vanadium alloy (machine gun rated)
70 rockwell case hardened (Nitrate) heat treated “5R” polygonal
barrels are 2 times harder than Mil-Spec & hammer forged barrels
Corrosion resistant and 10 times thicker and harder than
Mil-Spec chromed lining
“5R” polygonal right handed 1 x 8 twist hand-lapped button rifled
barrels from Rock Creek Barrels, Inc.
POF-USA muzzle device
Vortex flash suppressor or A2 flash hider (LEO/Military Only)
Chamber: 5.56 mm NATO (.223 Rem.)

Method of Operation:
Gas piston operated, rotating bolt (short stroke system)
2-position gas plug for normal (N) or suppressed (S) operating modes
C.R.O.S.™ (Corrosion Resistant Operating System)
Nitrate heat treated: barrel, gas block/tube (billet machined), gas plug
NP3™ coated (billet machined), gas piston chromed (billet machined),
bolt carrier assembly NP3™ coated (one-piece billet machined)

Handguards:
ERGO™ ladder rail covers
Sling/Bi-pod mount
POF-USA M.R.R.™ Hunting/Sniper or Tactical Modular Railed Receiver, free floating monolithic top rail system

Upper Receiver:
POF-USA M.R.R.™ Modular Railed Receiver, billet machined 7075-T6
aircraft aluminum alloy
2-piece upper receiver with free floating monolithic top rail
Oversized heat sink barrel nut
A3 flattop: NP3™, Black anodized, O.D. green CeraKote™
Charging handle: black anodized

NP3™ Plating:
NP3™ is a combination of a nickel alloy plating combined with
Polytetrafluoethylene aka Teflon. The plating components with
electroless or autocatalytic nickel is one of the most rapidly
developing metal finishing processes. The advantages of coating
uniformity, corrosion resistance and hardness are providing designers
with opportunities to protect and improve base materials in ways that
were not previously possible. Bolt & Carrier:
Nickel Teflon plated 8620 integral keyed steel bolt carrier
(billet machined), heat treated/plated per Mil-Spec
Roller cam pin NP3™ coated
.223 bolt: chrome plated heat treated to Mil-Spec
6.8 SPC bolt: phosphate heat treated to Mil-Spec

Lower Receiver:
P415, Gen III billet machined 7075 T-6 aircraft aluminum alloy
with integral oversized trigger guard
Ambidextrous bolt release lever machined into the lower receiver
Tactical Integrated Trigger System 4.5 lb. non-adjustable single stage competition trigger group
Mil-Spec, semi and full auto trigger groups (LEO/Military Only)
ERGO™ pistol grip
KNS™ anti-walk pins
NORGON ambidextrous magazine release
VLTOR™ 6-position retractable buttstock with Mil-Spec tube
NP3™, Black anodized, O.D. green CeraKote™

Sights: optional
POF-USA FTA-2005 snag free front sight
TROY flip up front and rear sights
Diamondhead flip up front and rear sights

Magazine:
Magpul™ PMAG™, C-Products™ and Mil-Spec

Weights:
6.36 - 8.26 lbs. (empty)

POF-USA Specifications:
All raw materials are manufactured from U.S. steel mills.
All heat treats, plating/coatings, are completed by U.S. owned
and operated manufacturers.
All accessory and component parts on weapons systems are U.S. owned and operated manufacturers.
All of our weapon systems are 100% pure American made.
Regulated short stroke gas piston weapons system requires no lube!

D94R
February 21, 2011, 06:49 AM
My buddy just bought the POF 416 14.5, but we have yet to fire it. Purely based on visual and general handling of the gun so far I can say a few things.

One, this thing is well refined, beautiful, and well put together.
Two, this thing seems heavy compared to my middy. The piston system and 4 rail hand guard add some heft.
Three, LWRC, from what I quickly researched has a comparable rifle for a comparable price. They also list that they use a proprietary Nickel coating as well. I'm guessing it's the same NP3 used on the POF.
Four, it's entirely made in the USA.


One observation my buddy made was that he should have gone with the 16" barrel as he now wants to put a can on it. Something to consider if you have any desire for this in the future.

98f150
February 21, 2011, 08:02 AM
I have two POF a 16" and the 18" SPR rifles. I also have a few other highend AR's The POF's are better then great rifles. Never had any malfuctions.

460Kodiak
February 21, 2011, 12:14 PM
D94R, I'm sorry. A can? I don't know what you mean by that.

esheato
February 21, 2011, 01:05 PM
Can=suppressor

460Kodiak
February 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
Thanks. That's what I thought was meant, but didn't want to assume and sound like a total idiot. There will never be a suppressor in action. My career will take me to several locations around the country. I want this to be a "street legal" AR that can cross state lines, requiring no tax stamp, engraving, registration, blood letting, DNA samples, registration, stool samples, or any of the other BS that will be required of ATF weapon owners in the future. I know there are state restrictions, and I will not be living in those states. I restrict my homesteads to "the middle of nowhere" locations.

wally
February 21, 2011, 02:00 PM
I've looked at a Ruger SR556 and they are nice, but the POF just seems a step above

At 50%+ more expensive it sure better be! I'm happy enough with my SR556 I don't see what at extra ~$700 could add to the basic piston AR rifle, maybe a handgun to go with it?

1858
February 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
At 50%+ more expensive it sure better be! I'm happy enough with my SR556 I don't see what at extra ~$700 could add to the basic piston AR rifle, maybe a handgun to go with it?

You obviously didn't read the POF specs that I posted above. Compare them to the SR-556 specs and perhaps you can figure out where the extra money goes. I've handled and fired a an SR-556 and other than the ability to shut off the gas system, it's not even close to a POF in terms of the high-end features. Does the Ruger have a billet lower, ambidextrous bolt release, NP3 coating, Rock Creek 1:8 hand-lapped and fluted barrel, a VLTOR Emod stock, a Timney trigger etc. Now that I think about it, the Ruger seems overpriced given that it just a basic AR with a piston.

dmancornell
February 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
I have a 20" POF 308. I bought it solely because I have 4 5.56 AR's and I am sick of cleaning the crud off the actions and a SR-25/LMT/Larue/BM 308 DI would be no different.

It is expensive and heavy, but otherwise I am very happy with it. The LWRC REPR is even more expensive.

wally
February 21, 2011, 08:11 PM
Yeah I read the "features". Not a believer in "magic" finishes, many other of the "upgrades" seem counter productive for a gun whose purpose is to be run hard enough for crud in the DI system being a problem.

You can change a lot on the SR556 if you want "better" furniture or trigger and have money left over, but the "target gun" features seem counter productive to a gun to be run hard and hot for the DI system to be an issue.

The billet lower is a lot like a "milled" AK, basically worthless to me, they're making AR lowers out of Carbon Fiber plastic these days so I don't see how "stronger" than a normal lower buys anything really worthwhile.

Yeah every AR has a perfectly ambidextrous bolt release -- my left index finger. Much like ambi mag & slide releases on pistols -- a solution looking for a problem as the index finger of lefties actually works better than the thumb does for righties. I'll give you the utility of an ambi safety on rifles or pistols, but don't see one on your feature list, and its only like $25 for any standard AR lower, so not a big deal if you need one.

460Kodiak
February 21, 2011, 08:43 PM
The nice thing Wally is that there is only a $400 difference between the rifles where I live. However, this doesn't take into account that the Ruger also comes with Troy battle sights, 3 pmags, and a nice soft case. By the time you buy all that stuff for the POF, it would be close to the $700 you mentioned. I do prefer the fit and finish of the POF rifles, but I'm more concerned with reliability and capability than looks. I like that the POF's come in 1:8 twist barrels. I would like the ability to stabilize a bit heavier bullets. I find it interesting that POF states that cleaning is optional, and lubrication is not needed. I find that hard to believe. I don't think that Ruger makes similar boasts do they?

1858
February 21, 2011, 09:18 PM
Yeah I read the "features". Not a believer in "magic" finishes, many other of the "upgrades" seem counter productive for a gun whose purpose is to be run hard enough for crud in the DI system being a problem.

Whether you feel that the features are worth it to you is irrelevant. If you remember, you stated "I'm happy enough with my SR556 I don't see what at extra ~$700 could add to the basic piston AR rifle". NP3 adds cost, a 1:8 Rock Creek fluted, hand lapped barrel adds cost, a VLTOR Emod stock adds cost, an over sized and finned barrel nut adds cost, the M.R.R. adds cost, a Timney trigger adds cost, a billet lower adds cost, the ambi bolt release adds cost, the NORGON ambi mag release adds cost. As for "counter productive upgrades" .... yeah, right. If you like your SR-556 then good for you. I've shot and handled the 556 and it's not on my wish list. The 556 is very front heavy and it looks like a third grader taking a metal working class came up with the attachment system for the rail to the receiver.


I find it interesting that POF states that cleaning is optional, and lubrication is not needed. I find that hard to believe. I don't think that Ruger makes similar boasts do they?

That is POFs "claim to fame". They build ARs to be run without lubrication which may be important if you're operating in very dusty, sandy conditions. I will add that I lubricate the BCG because I'm not operating in harsh conditions. If I were, I wouldn't use any oil.

wally
February 21, 2011, 09:48 PM
Adding costs is easy, getting real benefits from them is a tad more difficult. Whatever floats your boat. I see features that add costs working at cross purposes for the alleged limitations of DI that a piston is supposed to address if its to be run hard enough to matter.

I hate cleaning guns so even a cheap AR piston upper has real benefits to me. At this point I'm not sure the SR556 has any real advantage over my CMMG piston upper (unless you really love quad rails). Maybe a few thousand more rounds though each will show something....

Pretty much whenever a rifle gets over ~$1600 or a pistol gets over ~$800 I start having second thoughts unless its a proven collectible. Not that I haven't violated this for better and worse on occasions :)

460Kodiak
February 21, 2011, 10:11 PM
I agree with you Wally on the pricing points. I'm not cheap, and I will pay a higher price to get what I want. In fact that is the dilema I'm in right now. I had my heart set on a Sig 556. Then I went and really studied one. I was unimpressed by the fit and finish. I mean the rifle was factory new, and the finish was chipping of of the so called "shell deflector" just from the couple of test rounds the factory had fired. For $1500 the finish should be a bit more durable IMO. So I have decided to spend a little more and get something better. But I'm strugling with the $2000 price tag. This is likely the last 5.56 cal gun I will ever buy, so I may just go with the POF. Durability is one of the main considerations I'm looking at. POF's get a lot of good reviews on that note. At least the later generations do.

Sorry if I made any Sig owners mad. It's just my opinion.

taliv
February 21, 2011, 10:19 PM
while the POF really isn't my thing, I understand 1858's statement about features and have made essentially the same argument about the KAC SR15, which is similarly feature-rich with a high base-cost.

Mags
February 21, 2011, 10:30 PM
Sig 516

1858
February 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
I see features that add costs working at cross purposes for the alleged limitations of DI that a piston is supposed to address if its to be run hard enough to matter.

I would genuinely like you to elaborate on this. In your opinion, which features add cost while reducing the reliability of the POF?

taliv, one of the guys I shoot matches with loves KAC products and he has a number of KAC rifles. I've shot quite a few rounds through his SR-25 but have no wish to buy one for myself. It shoots well (with his reloads), but it's just a relatively uninteresting, sufficiently accurate rifle and nothing more. The fact that the USMC uses a version of it means nothing to me but it seems to mean a lot to my friend. He even went as far as buying the same optic. I've known him for a number of years and consider him a friend, but I was very annoyed by his reaction to a 0.5" 5-shot group I shot at 100 yards with my P308 while working up a load. He wasn't very happy about it, even to the point of telling me that I probably couldn't do it again implying that it was some kind of a fluke. I wasn't impressed.

taliv
February 21, 2011, 11:49 PM
perhaps you should look at the newer SR15 and SR25s

1858
February 22, 2011, 12:15 AM
perhaps you should look at the newer SR15 and SR25s

As good as they may be, I have no plans for any semi-auto rifles this year ... maybe a semi-auto shotgun and a DI upper for a BM lower.

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