Can Palm Beach County Do This??


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LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 01:44 AM
Hey. So this is the story. I ordered a mosin for a website to be shipped to my local FFL dealer. After waiting they call me and say that my item is in. I go in give them my ID and he gives me a big no. He says that because i am 19 years of age that i can't receive the rifle due to the ammunition that it shoots. (***) Arccording to him the only rifles i can buy are shotguns and 22LR. But the florida law states that anyone above the age of 18 can purchase a long rifle. Now i am stuck. Can this guy do this? What should i do next?

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sappnasty
February 22, 2011, 01:52 AM
That's B.S. Anyone 18 years of age or older can buy any long gun as long as it has the legal barrel length (or unless it has a "pistol grip" - Then you gotta be 21 to pick it up). I used to work at Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona Beach and sold a ton of Mosin's to 18 and 19 year olds. The ammo is 7.62x54R...Obviously not able to be used in any pistol type configuration. I would ask for clarification and if you get no where with that, ask to speak to the owner or head cheese...and then if you get no where with that, I would contact local law enforcement. Just my suggestion.

LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 01:58 AM
That's B.S. Anyone 18 years of age or older can buy any long gun as long as it has the legal barrel length (or unless it has a "pistol grip" - Then you gotta be 21 to pick it up). I used to work at Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona Beach and sold a ton of Mosin's to 18 and 19 year olds. The ammo is 7.62x54R...Obviously not able to be used in any pistol type configuration. I would ask for clarification and if you get no where with that, ask to speak to the owner or head cheese...and then if you get no where with that, I would contact local law enforcement. Just my suggestion.
That's the same thing i was thinking. It's so stupid. He told me it's military ammunition and when i told him these laws he said Palm Beach County has their seperate thing. But a couple weeks ago my 18 year old friend bought a sks from the gun show down here. I think the guy is just a <deleted>

Rubberberner
February 22, 2011, 01:59 AM
in the state of florida: sale of any firearm or ammo from an FFL to an individual under the age of 21 is prohibited, however, you can legally own a firearm if purchased from a private seller, or if someone of legal age purchases it and "gifts" it to you.

LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 02:04 AM
in the state of florida: sale of any firearm or ammo from an FFL to an individual under the age of 21 is prohibited, however, you can legally own a firearm if purchased from a private seller, or if someone of legal age purchases it and "gifts" it to you.
That only applies to handguns.

Clipper
February 22, 2011, 02:28 AM
That only applies to handguns.

You're wrong. It applies to any firearm purchase from an FFL. That's Federal law, and has nothing to do with Florida.

DammitBoy
February 22, 2011, 02:31 AM
You're wrong, it only applies to handguns, but this is the wrong place for this thread.

LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 02:34 AM
You're wrong. It applies to any firearm purchase from an FFL. That's Federal law, and has nothing to do with Florida.
So how are other 18 or 19 year old buying rifles. Also why would the guy say I can buy a shotgun?

LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 02:39 AM
You're wrong, it only applies to handguns, but this is the wrong place for this thread.
Well this is actually my first thread here so yeah I don't know where it goes. Plus I just said it only applies to handguns the you "corrected" by saying the same thing.

o Unforgiven o
February 22, 2011, 02:40 AM
in the state of florida: sale of any firearm or ammo from an FFL to an individual under the age of 21 is prohibited, however, you can legally own a firearm if purchased from a private seller, or if someone of legal age purchases it and "gifts" it to you.


With all due respect sir, YOU are the one who is wrong here. There is no federal law that states anybody under the age of 21 cannot purchase a gun from an FFL. As previously stated, that only applies to sale of HANDGUNS to someone under the age of 21 from an FFL.

in the state of florida: sale of any firearm or ammo from an FFL to an individual under the age of 21 is prohibited, however, you can legally own a firearm if purchased from a private seller, or if someone of legal age purchases it and "gifts" it to you.

Again as previously posted, what you said only applies to handguns, and that is federal law that has nothing to do with the state laws of Florida.

o Unforgiven o
February 22, 2011, 02:44 AM
To the OP, there is no reason that you cannot legally have that tansferred to you in anywhere in the state of Florida. If you have already spoken with the owner of the shop, I suggest you call the ATF and let them know of the problem.

LethalCep
February 22, 2011, 02:46 AM
To the OP, there is no reason that you cannot legally have that tansferred to you in anywhere in the state of Florida. If you have already spoken with the owner of the shop, I suggest you call the ATF and let them know of the problem.
Thanks man will do.

doc2rn
February 22, 2011, 05:09 AM
I would advise you, you attract more bees with honey. Use the subtle approach, take in the florida laws concerning sale of a long arm (AKA rifle) and age limit. They are public documents found on the web. Advise you have spoken with ATF and give name and number to the agent. If he then wishes to refund your money so be it, make sure its all of it including shipping fees FFL fees etc.. As a dealer its his right to refuse to serve you, just vote in the future with your wallet by going elsewhere.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
February 22, 2011, 08:32 AM
I could be wrong but Palm Beach county and Dade county have their own set of gun laws including a 5day wait on all firearm purchases http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/blog/Articles/FirearmLaws/Florida_Palm_Beach_County_Firearm_Laws/index.php I still cant find a statute on age but I believe this is where the problem lies.

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 11:56 AM
The Florida Statute Rubberberner is referring to is this one:
790.18Sale or transfer of arms to minors by dealers.
—It is unlawful for any dealer in arms to sell or transfer to a minor any firearm, pistol, Springfield rifle or other repeating rifle, bowie knife or dirk knife, brass knuckles, slungshot, or electric weapon or device. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

What he is failing to consider is the definition of minor, which is contained in this Florida statue:
1.01Definitions.
—In construing these statutes and each and every word, phrase, or part hereof, where the context will permit:

(13)The word “minor” includes any person who has not attained the age of 18 years.

Give me a minute to find Florida's preemption statute. The only firearms regulation that counties and cities in Florida can enact are waiting periods and regulating the discharge of firearms.

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 11:59 AM
Here's your Florida pre-emption statute. It is ILLEGAL for the county to regulate the possession or transfer of firearms beyond what state law allows. State laws allow them to only enact waiting periods for handguns:

790.33Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.

(1)PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void. This subsection shall not affect zoning ordinances which encompass firearms businesses along with other businesses. Zoning ordinances which are designed for the purpose of restricting or prohibiting the sale, purchase, transfer, or manufacture of firearms or ammunition as a method of regulating firearms or ammunition are in conflict with this subsection and are prohibited.

(2)LIMITED EXCEPTION; COUNTY WAITING-PERIOD ORDINANCES.—

(a)Any county may have the option to adopt a waiting-period ordinance requiring a waiting period of up to, but not to exceed, 3 working days between the purchase and delivery of a handgun. For purposes of this subsection, “purchase” means payment of deposit, payment in full, or notification of intent to purchase. Adoption of a waiting-period ordinance, by any county, shall require a majority vote of the county commission on votes on waiting-period ordinances. This exception is limited solely to individual counties and is limited to the provisions and restrictions contained in this subsection.

(b)Ordinances authorized by this subsection shall apply to all sales of handguns to individuals by a retail establishment except those sales to individuals exempted in this subsection. For purposes of this subsection, “retail establishment” means a gun shop, sporting goods store, pawn shop, hardware store, department store, discount store, bait or tackle shop, or any other store or shop that offers handguns for walk-in retail sale but does not include gun collectors shows or exhibits, or gun shows.

(c)Ordinances authorized by this subsection shall not require any reporting or notification to any source outside the retail establishment, but records of handgun sales must be available for inspection, during normal business hours, by any law enforcement agency as defined in s. 934.02.

(d)The following shall be exempt from any waiting period:

1.Individuals who are licensed to carry concealed firearms under the provisions of s. 790.06 or who are licensed to carry concealed firearms under any other provision of state law and who show a valid license;

2.Individuals who already lawfully own another firearm and who show a sales receipt for another firearm; who are known to own another firearm through a prior purchase from the retail establishment; or who have another firearm for trade-in;

3.A law enforcement or correctional officer as defined in s. 943.10;

4.A law enforcement agency as defined in s. 934.02;

5.Sales or transactions between dealers or between distributors or between dealers and distributors who have current federal firearms licenses; or

6.Any individual who has been threatened or whose family has been threatened with death or bodily injury, provided the individual may lawfully possess a firearm and provided such threat has been duly reported to local law enforcement.

(3)POLICY AND INTENT.—

(a)It is the intent of this section to provide uniform firearms laws in the state; to declare all ordinances and regulations null and void which have been enacted by any jurisdictions other than state and federal, which regulate firearms, ammunition, or components thereof; to prohibit the enactment of any future ordinances or regulations relating to firearms, ammunition, or components thereof unless specifically authorized by this section or general law; and to require local jurisdictions to enforce state firearms laws.

(b)As created by chapter 87-23, Laws of Florida, this section shall be known and may be cited as the “Joe Carlucci Uniform Firearms Act.”

You can find Florida firearms statutes here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/0790ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2010&Title=%2D%3E2010%2D%3EChapter%20790

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 12:03 PM
The applicable Federal law, BTW is this:

18 USC 922 (b)(1):
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
February 22, 2011, 01:43 PM
Navy LT the 5 day wait is for all firearms purchases in these two counties here is an old discussion on the topic http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-478933.html

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 03:03 PM
Navy LT the 5 day wait is for all firearms purchases in these two counties

Which appear to be null and void, according to state law.

thorn726
February 22, 2011, 06:44 PM
crazy// you need to print out and bring in all these relevant laws. If you find you are legal, and he continues to withhold, you will have to tell him the police are next which would be terrible- last thing anyone needs is a gun shop owner going down as a two bit scammer. Only advantage in him keeping your gun for a year- either using it or reselling and restocking on your money in meantime? hopefully owner is just confused and afraid of breaking the law. But until he sees it in print himself, you can bet he wont hand it over, so you'll probably have to show him yourself

AWorthyOpponent
February 22, 2011, 07:31 PM
Palm beach gun shop owners have all gotten together and done this. They claim county ordinances, however there are none on the books. It is the same with them demanding that you purchase any ammo that you shoot on the range. The problem was that there are two main places in this area, and that's about it.

Palm Beach has tried to do stuff in the past though, such as banning firearms in parks, and other places, however I believe most of it has been taken away because they "found out" about the preemption statute.

Apparently, the change in the gun law for parks was triggered because the county finally complied with a long existing state law.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/palm-beach-county-gun-law-please-bring-guns-palm-beach-parks-2740334.html


I assume you are dealing with Gator Guns, on Military and Okeechobee. They are IDIOTS. Never believe ANYTHING THEY SAY about guns - at all - ever... They should stick to Archery.

Shoot Straight opened up on Southern, just east of the turnpike. They seem to know what they are taking about. They have a few stores throughout Florida, and from what I can tell. they don't play into the LGS BS.

Sebastian the Ibis
February 22, 2011, 07:48 PM
Navy LT said it as well as I could.

Print out the relevant statutes and take them with you to the gun store. The only thing I can add is that there does not appear to be anything in the Palm Beach code which prevents you from obtaining a Mosin in any event: see Chapter 28 here: http://library4.municode.com/default-test/home.htm?infobase=10323&doc_action=whatsnew

If he says there is a problem with federal law, have him call the ATF 24 hour hotline at (800) 800-3855 (Toll Free).

If the gun store owner will not give it to you after 5 days, or (I apologize for sounding condescending) give it to your parents. Both of which seem like efficient solutions for dealing with an idiot. Then he is probably trying to rip you off.

In that case review s 772.11 Fla. Stat. Civil remedies for criminal acts (theft/conversion) If you have any questions PM me I may be able to help ;)

ColtPythonElite
February 22, 2011, 08:45 PM
Whether it's legal or know, I don't know...However, I would guess that the shop owner can refuse to sell to you even if you go back in with a pile of laws printed out showing the "legality" of the transaction. I don't see that calling law enforcement will get anywhere. I can't imagine that they can force him to sell to you.

Bonesinium
February 22, 2011, 08:57 PM
Whether it's legal or know, I don't know...However, I would guess that the shop owner can refuse to sell to you even if you go back in with a pile of laws printed out showing the "legality" of the transaction. I don't see that calling law enforcement will get anywhere. I can't imagine that they can force him to sell to you.
You are probably right. But is the shop selling him the gun, or has he already paid and the shop transferring him the gun? I have never done this, so don't know, but it seems like a different situation. I don't know though.

What I do know, is that if what the OP said about their reason for not letting him get it is true, then they are full of crap. He can't get it because of the ammo it shoots? Really? But if it shot .22lr he could? How does that even make sense...not even NJ has a law that stupid, and I doubt Florida does.

ColtPythonElite
February 22, 2011, 09:14 PM
Even if money has changed hands, LEO won't do anything unless you can prove some sort of crime, such as fraud. Most likely the OP would have to take the shop owner to civil court to recover any lost $$ if the owner refuses to give him a refund.

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 11:24 PM
At this point, the only thing the shop with the gun CAN do is transfer the gun to somebody, with a NICS check on a form 4473 or to another FFL. They have received the gun, and entered it into their bound book. The best bet would be to find another FFL to transfer the gun to, even an out-of-state FFL, because the OP can get the gun from any FFL in about 46 states. I would either refuse to pay the first FFL any transfer fee, or file a small claim against them if a transfer fee is paid. Another option might be to just take the shop to small claims court for the cost of the rifle. Since there are no legal reasons for them to hold the gun, I would think a judge would find in the OP's favor.

In these types of transactions the normal procedure is for the buyer to pay the seller directly, the seller ships the gun to the FFL, and the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. The FFL never handles the money for the purchase price of the gun. Since the FFL is keeping the gun the buyer already paid for, with no legal reason to, I would think a court would make the FFL pay the purchase price of the gun to the buyer.

roadchoad
February 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
The info in the OP states the FFL is giving you issues, but the title of the thread places blame on the county. I fail to see the connection.

NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 11:59 PM
It's because the FFL told him there was a county ordinance prohibiting them from transferring the rifle to him. Clearly the FFL was mistaken in that regard.

brboyer
February 23, 2011, 01:51 AM
Which appear to be null and void, according to state law.
Actually, there is a constitutional amendment voted in 1998 that permits counties to enact an optional additional 3-5 day waiting periods on any firearm purchase: Article 8, Section 5(b). The amendment did not require it be codified in the statutes, so you'll not find it there. The Florida legislature has never really wanted to legislate waiting periods, so the Anti's went to the public via constitutional amendments to get waiting periods in place - lots of money for TV/radio adds focused on the emotional issue, not logic.
BTW, this amendment also targeted the so-called 'Gunshow loophole', by allowing counties to also require a criminal background check for any sale occurring on property the public has a right to access.

Sport45
February 23, 2011, 01:56 AM
You have received much good advice.

Can your dad go to the shop and pick up the rifle? I know that's not the point, but it would save you an awful lot of hassle.

jiminhobesound
February 23, 2011, 02:00 AM
I was in Gator Guns, small shop, in West Palm four years ago and saw an 18 year old buy a handgun

LethalCep
February 23, 2011, 02:28 PM
Update: First i want to thank everyone with the useful information they provided me.

I called the ATF this morning and spoke to an investigator. He told me i was legal to obtain the rifle. After hearing this i jumped up in joy clapping my feet. (lol). So i go in and they tried to give me a refund. After i explained to them that i am legal to get it and they were wrong they said " ok we'll call my atf guy and see what it is". After a 3 minute conversation on the phone the one face of victory the lady had dropped to a face of bitter defeat. She then apologized for putting me through all this and received my payment for the transfer. I get the gun Tuesday. I just want to thank everyone again for the information. Pics will be posted when i receive it.

NavyLCDR
February 23, 2011, 03:46 PM
Actually, there is a constitutional amendment voted in 1998 that permits counties to enact an optional additional 3-5 day waiting periods on any firearm purchase: Article 8, Section 5(b). The amendment did not require it be codified in the statutes, so you'll not find it there. The Florida legislature has never really wanted to legislate waiting periods, so the Anti's went to the public via constitutional amendments to get waiting periods in place - lots of money for TV/radio adds focused on the emotional issue, not logic.
BTW, this amendment also targeted the so-called 'Gunshow loophole', by allowing counties to also require a criminal background check for any sale occurring on property the public has a right to access.

I'll be danged... never seen such crap in a state's Constitution before. So, Florida state law is in conflict with the Florida state Constitution... how messed up is that.

Glad the OP got the gun! I would have loved to have seen the conversation the dealer had with the ATF!

jeepmor
February 23, 2011, 04:06 PM
Call the ATF, get the facts straight, and if they're in your favor, send them after your FFL. He'll surely appreciate the attention from one of the most dreaded organizations in gun history.

DammitBoy
February 23, 2011, 06:57 PM
Good for you!

RonDeer10mm
February 23, 2011, 08:31 PM
whats the name of the store?

mgkdrgn
February 23, 2011, 08:45 PM
Sorry you had all this trouble ... I just hope this wasn't one of MY Mosins!

Transfers for long guns - 18, transfers for hand guns - 21. It's right on the wall here behind me because, what do you know, I'm an FFL, and that info if REQUIRED TO BE POSTED IN A VISIBLE PLACE on my premises.

LethalCep
February 23, 2011, 10:38 PM
Liberty Gun and Pawn. Next time i am taking my business elsewhere. Anybody know some good stores in west palm beach?

Sport45
February 23, 2011, 10:51 PM
Glad it worked out.

Next time i am taking my business elsewhere.

Now that you've straightened this out why switch? Want to go through all that again?

LethalCep
February 24, 2011, 12:04 AM
Seems like a valid point. Just their know it all attitudes bothered me.

Sebastian the Ibis
February 24, 2011, 01:13 AM
Anybody know some good stores in west palm beach?

If you are down in Miami-Dade, Lou's Police Supply on 57th @ the Gratigny Parkway and Interstate Armory at 27th and US-1. Both will treat you well, and shoot with you on the weekends.

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