Magazine Rotation.


PDA






jiminhobesound
February 22, 2011, 02:00 PM
I assume this item has been covered in the past but I just joined so I have not encountered the question. How often should I rotate, or empty, shells from my pistols, rifles and shotgun? I currently rotate two clips every ten days for my pistols. I have a pump shotgun that I keep three rounds in the magazine at all times (it holds five). I have an enfield MKI and an SKS that I have kept fully loaded for months. I thought the military rifles would be capable of being constantly loaded and the shotgun would be OK when only half loaded. I appreciate your comments.

If you enjoyed reading about "Magazine Rotation." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DoubleTapDrew
February 22, 2011, 02:18 PM
Springs wear from loading and unloading, not being in a static state (compressed or uncompressed) so you can leave them loaded as long as you want.

VA27
February 22, 2011, 02:30 PM
+1. Back in the mid 70's, my ex-father-in-law dug out his 1911A1 and 3 loaded 1911 mags that he'd brought back from WWII. The ammo was headstamped 1945. We shot 'em up with no problems and loaded 'em back up with fresh ammo and he put 'em away.

Load 'em and leave 'em.

kingpin008
February 22, 2011, 02:35 PM
You don't have to rotate at all. Magazines are not damaged by being kept loaded. There was a user here awhile back who found his grandpa's war bring-back 1911 that had been stored in an attic, mag loaded, since 1945. He went out back and shot the gun empty, and it functioned flawlessly.

W.E.G.
February 22, 2011, 02:42 PM
This is the "Do my springs get soft from sustained compression?" question.

The answer is NO.

Your springs do not get soft from sustained compression.

rcmodel
February 22, 2011, 02:44 PM
+1

If you rotate your magazines to save the springs?

You should probably also jack up your car and put it on blocks every evening when you get home from work to save the springs on it too.

rc

Manco
February 22, 2011, 04:35 PM
Properly designed magazines should never need to be "rotated," but some magazine designs may be a bit aggressive on capacity, which means that the spring may experience some weakening over time. Since I function-test the magazines and ammo I've selected for defensive purposes about once a year anyway, that's how often mine happen to get rotated, but were it not for that, I would never even give it a thought.

That said, if it would make you feel better, you could try downloading each magazine by one round--that should compensate for any potential shortcomings in the magazines' designs while saving the springs from unnecessary wear (and you from unnecessary effort). I don't think that rotating magazines really helps much anyway.

Drail
February 22, 2011, 07:25 PM
Single stack magazines that are easy to load and contain high quality springs will probably not be affected by leaving them constantly loaded. Some double stack magazines (the ones that require you to use some sort of "loading device" to get the last couple of rounds in) are stressing the springs more and may take a set if left fully compressed over time. Especially if the springs are cheap mass produced junk (and there are a lot of those out there.) It wouldn't be a bad idea to leave those mags downloaded a few rounds. You just have to ask yourself if having full mag capacity is more important than feed reliability. Rotating magazines probably won't help and will just accelerate wear on the spring (quality or not).

jiminhobesound
February 22, 2011, 07:42 PM
Great response and thank you very much. I grew up with hunting guns that got cleaned and put away until the next season. When I dealt with personal defense weapons in the Navy I always picked them up from the armorer and returned them to him. Consequently, I display my ignorance in matters of personal weapons care and feeding.

W.E.G.
February 22, 2011, 08:10 PM
On the issue of "down-loading" mags, I down-load the mags on my carry gun because it makes it a lot easier to seat the mag on a closed slide if one round is omitted from the mag.

I can live with 16 rounds in the mag instead of 17.

I'm not doing it for the springs, I'm doing it for convenience and certainty of function in seating the mag on a closed slide.

ColtPythonElite
February 22, 2011, 08:14 PM
I've been carrying the same 3 double stack mags fully loaded for a decade. They stay loaded all the time and get only unloaded when qualifying every six months. They have never given me an issue. Same for my last gun of a different brand that I was carried for about 9 years.

nalioth
February 22, 2011, 09:26 PM
I assume this item has been covered in the past but I just joined so I have not encountered the question.. . and you can't use the search?

This is one of those "minimum twice a month" questions.

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of threads on this here at THR (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22magazine+springs%22+site:thehighroad.org) and the answers never change.

captain awesome
February 23, 2011, 02:29 AM
I believe Manco and Drail are correct.
here is my experience;
I had an xd40 with 12+1 capacity I carried as a security guard. when I bought it with three mags, the springs were all VERY stiff. Difficult to load. I left two of them full to the brim for 3 months with out touching them before I heard this so called "Myth". Now, I have been called a liar, dead wrong, and an idiot, but I am telling you the truth when I say, I noticed the springs on those two mags were lighter and easier to load at the end of those three months than they were when I first got them. At that point I decided to rotate them through on a weekly basis and only load 10 rounds instead of 12.(no one had told me rotating them wears them out also at that point) You can take that to mean what you will. Could their be other reasons for my findings? very possible, But the facts are I had mags with stiff springs, left them full for 3 months, with out being unloaded, then they had softer springs.

Now, after I quit that job I ended up shooting that gun quite a bit, and I never had any jams, feeding issues, or malfunctions with any of the three mags, But I do believe in specific applications it will soften the springs. Would it ever be bad enough to cause a malfunction? I couldn't say. It does not seem to affect 1911's.

My understanding is with tube magazines in shotguns, its not the spring you have to worry about, but the shells. They get compressed length wise causing a "bulge" in their diameter and then won't chamber.

Radium
February 23, 2011, 06:42 AM
what i understand normal springs wont get dammaged from being loaded.
but leaf/ZigZag springs(dont remember the correct term. but springs that go in a only ZigZag pattern. not in a spiral pattern ) i remember that they could maybe possible one outta a bilzillion get sumkind of damage when fullyloaded for a longertime.

Sam Cade
February 23, 2011, 01:04 PM
But the facts are I had mags with stiff springs, left them full for 3 months, with out being unloaded, then they had softer springs
It was the loading and unloading that did it.

Materials science works the same for everyone.

Kenneth
February 23, 2011, 02:17 PM
Flexing wears a spring much more than just compression. Rotating your magazines will cause unnecessary wear of the spring. It still behooves (I always wanted to use that word in a sentence :rolleyes:) you to function check your SD and SHTF firearms and magazines once in a while.


"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

captain awesome
February 23, 2011, 05:02 PM
It was the loading and unloading that did it.

Materials science works the same for everyone.

Did it?
So you are saying one loading and unloading of a mag can soften the spring to a very noticeable degree?(I really don't know, I only ever owned three semi auto pistols, and the xd was the only double stack)
because i had taken it out and shot 100rounds through those mags before i started carrying and that didn't do it. why would the three month period loading be the one to change it? my theory (just a theory) it was out in both hot 100 degree weather( not to mention black things get very hot in the summer AZ sun) and about freezing weather within those three months, working a variety of afternoon, night and morning shifts in phoenix from Feb. - May. Maybe the temperature changes on a daily basis had more to do with it? The third mag never did get as soft as the other two, although I also noticed a change in that one as well after I started using it more.

Any way, I really can't explain for sure why, but whether the myth is true or not, you probably wouldn't have to worry either way if you use them at less than full capacity. If it never caused a malfunction in mine, it probably wouldn't for others either.

ForumSurfer
February 23, 2011, 05:31 PM
So you are saying one loading and unloading of a mag can soften the spring to a very noticeable degree?

No, that isn't what he's saying. He's just saying the loading and unloading causes wear, nothing more.

Are you basing this off of feel? Feel is subjective. Your fingertips may have been a little stronger the day you loaded it the 2nd time. I work out regularly and my max weight on a given body part can vary by + or - 15 pounds week to week. Unless you are measuring the exact spring tension, you just can't tell based on a subjective feel. If you want to experiment, buy 2 new mags, leave one as a control (empty), the other loaded and then measure the difference on a gauge...be my guest. I'd love to hear the results, even though it will not change my habits since my habits "work."

I've left 1911, pmags and glock mags loaded for extremely long periods of time...over a year in extreme cases. Yes, I once left a glock mag loaded with cheap paper punchers in my glove box and forgot about it. Humidity, sweltering summer, below freezing in the winter...all sorts of stuff. Fired off just fine. Leaving them loaded will not cause damage. I think you should fire your defensive ammo from time to time, but not very often.

ny32182
February 23, 2011, 05:45 PM
I find that springs get "broken in" just like other parts: with new pistol mags especially, when BRAND new, I often have to really force feed the last round or two in there. Leave them loaded for a few days, and they are usually less stiff and near the amount of resistance that they will then have for a long lifespan. A little use will get them the rest of the way there.

I have no concerns with leaving mags loaded for long periods of time. Since I don't shoot my actual carry gun nearly as much as I used to, I have gone months without unloading the mags (G19 mags) and haven't had a problem yet. I've had AR mags loaded for longer periods of time than that, and no issues with those either.

This is one of those things that millions of people do, and the lack of mass reports of failure from weak mag springs indicates to me that there is absolutely nothing to worry about here.

nalioth
February 23, 2011, 09:00 PM
Any way, I really can't explain for sure why, but whether the myth is true or not, you probably wouldn't have to worry either way if you use them at less than full capacity.It's not a myth - it's proven science.

captain awesome
February 23, 2011, 10:49 PM
sure I can tell by feel. I did have a control mag, the third one. And at the point were I started rotating them, it was stiffer than the other two, and remained stiffer in comparison to the others to the day I sold the gun. And no it wasn't a purposeful thing.

Proven science? Can you provide irrefutable scientific proof about every magazine ever manufactured? Or even one for that matter? To many variables, not enough constants. This myth will never be debunked entirely nor can it be proven to be true, if for no other reason than that there are literally thousands of different types of magazines manufactured over the years Out of many different grade metals and alloys. All of which have different behavioral characteristics.

I am signing off of these type of threads. they are pointless. Personally after my experience, I am not worried about it due to the fact that I never had a misfeed or jam. If you are worried about it, keep your mags less than full. if not, don't bother.

Drail
February 23, 2011, 11:01 PM
Bear in mind that there cannot be one rule that will apply to every magazine spring out there. The variables are (1) what kind of steel the springs are made out of and (2) how they were tempered into a spring. There are manufacturers that care about quality and there are some that are only looking at the profit margin. You can't tell anything about the quality of a spring by looking at it. If someone claims that they have never had a spring fail then all that means is they bought quality magazines. My point is - don't assume that your magazines can be left fully loaded and there will not be a problem just because someone else tells you that they have never had one fail. All you can do is test your own gear and see how it holds up and don't trust it until you know. I have had very good luck over the years with springs from Wolff and ISMI. A large percentage of all the others are a crap shoot. Buy good springs. Buy spares. Replace them immediately if they start giving last round feed problems. They're only good for so many cycles even if they're not being overcompressed. But with the preference for high capacity designs now a lot of them are.

DoubleTapDrew
February 23, 2011, 11:28 PM
I find that springs get "broken in" just like other parts: with new pistol mags especially, when BRAND new, I often have to really force feed the last round or two in there. Leave them loaded for a few days, and they are usually less stiff and near the amount of resistance that they will then have for a long lifespan. A little use will get them the rest of the way there.


I have noticed this too. Especially with the notoriously stiff Glock mags the first time or two you load them.
I read some extremely technical articles about the metalurgy of magazine springs and didn't understand all of it but the summary was that magazine springs take an initial "set" when they are new (which is why people often suggest leaving glock mags loaded for a week or so when new to cure the stiff spring issue) then have a constant rate of degridation from working the spring, loading and unloading.

Drail
February 24, 2011, 01:06 AM
If they are "taking a set" when they're new it is probably because they are being overcompressed. Most single stack mag springs don't exhibit this. Most double stack high caps do.

1911Tuner
February 24, 2011, 08:49 PM
Proven science? Can you provide irrefutable scientific proof about every magazine ever manufactured?

Assuming good quality springs that are matched to the application...yes. The problem is that not everybody uses good springs...your equipment being supplied by the lowest bidder and all.

All springs take a set when compressed or used. Properly engineered springs have had this set factored in.

Thlax
February 24, 2011, 08:59 PM
Side note-

Put a little piece of painters tape, duck, whatever and number them. That way you know which one your holding, and if you ever run into problems its easier to help identify if it's a mag problem.

Ithaca37
February 24, 2011, 10:32 PM
some magazine designs may be a bit aggressive on capacity, which means that the spring may experience some weakening over time.

Wrong.

Single stack magazines that are easy to load and contain high quality springs will probably not be affected by leaving them constantly loaded. Some double stack magazines (the ones that require you to use some sort of "loading device" to get the last couple of rounds in) are stressing the springs more and may take a set if left fully compressed over time.

Wrong.

Bear in mind that there cannot be one rule that will apply to every magazine spring out there.

Um, yes the rules are the same. All of you who have absolutely no idea what you are talking should refrain from commenting on the subject as you only confuse people and serve to perpetuate falsehoods with no basis in reality.

Proven science? Can you provide irrefutable scientific proof about every magazine ever manufactured? Or even one for that matter? To many variables, not enough constants. This myth will never be debunked entirely nor can it be proven to be true, if for no other reason than that there are literally thousands of different types of magazines manufactured over the years Out of many different grade metals and alloys. All of which have different behavioral characteristics.

You have no idea what you are talking. It is a myth and does not need debunking, just a simple lesson in materials. ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature. Creep is the only possible failure mechanism that would occur under this kind of static loading. Scientific proof is sitting in every mechanics of materials book you pick up which is based on 100+ years of research and actual experience. Stop confusing people by pretending to know what you are talking about.


Assuming good quality springs that are matched to the application...yes. The problem is that not everybody uses good springs...your equipment being supplied by the lowest bidder and all.

All springs take a set when compressed or used. Properly engineered springs have had this set factored in.

The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading. If a spring deforms plastically when loaded the amount of plastic strain does not change whether the mag is left loaded or unloaded immediately. This is simple mechanics of materials.

danez71
February 25, 2011, 10:13 AM
Wrong.

Wrong.


Um, yes the rules are the same. All of you who have absolutely no idea what you are talking should refrain from commenting on the subject as you only confuse people and serve to perpetuate falsehoods with no basis in reality.


You have no idea what you are talking. It is a myth and does not need debunking, just a simple lesson in materials. ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature. Creep is the only possible failure mechanism that would occur under this kind of static loading. Scientific proof is sitting in every mechanics of materials book you pick up which is based on 100+ years of research and actual experience. Stop confusing people by pretending to know what you are talking about.


The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading. If a spring deforms plastically when loaded the amount of plastic strain does not change whether the mag is left loaded or unloaded immediately. This is simple mechanics of materials.

Be careful of digging your heels in to the point of burying your head in the sand.

http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/spring-design.html
http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/compression-spring-design.html
http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/spring-designs.html
http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/support-files/materials_cross_reference_summary.pdf

If you take a gander.... be prepared to find evidence that doesnt agree with you.

Drail
February 25, 2011, 10:16 AM
I think he's already past that stage.

Ben86
February 25, 2011, 11:19 AM
While actual usage is what causes most of the wear on springs, compression does cause a little bit of fatigue. The only thing that cause no fatigue is when the spring is in its natural shape. Is it necessary to rotate? Not really, but I do it anyway to help insure reliability and spring life. It's just that important to me. I cycle my ammo and magazines every two weeks.

My rotation is more about putting fresh ammo in the mag, to keep from over exposing to moisture/over chambering ammo causing setback.

nalioth
February 25, 2011, 12:41 PM
I cycle my ammo and magazines every two weeks.Then you should probably cycle your mag springs once a year, too.

Ithaca37
February 25, 2011, 01:56 PM
If you take a gander.... be prepared to find evidence that doesnt agree with you.

Ok, please enlighten me. I have looked through the material on those pages. I have seen it all before in basic engineering classes. Please quote the potions which disagree with what I have stated before because I do not see anything.


I think he's already past that stage.

Thanks for your wonderful contribution to this thread. Please tell me where and why I am wrong.

While actual usage is what causes most of the wear on springs, compression does cause a little bit of fatigue. The only thing that cause no fatigue is when the spring is in its natural shape.

Fatigue under static loading? How does that one work?


If you guys can show me where I am wrong I will gladly apologize and amend or remove any incorrect statements.

danez71
February 25, 2011, 02:48 PM
Ok, please enlighten me. I have looked through the material on those pages. I have seen it all before in basic engineering classes. Please quote the potions which disagree with what I have stated before because I do not see anything.


You also stated this.

It is a myth and does not need debunking, just a simple lesson in materials. ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature. Creep is the only possible failure mechanism that would occur under this kind of static loading.

While "ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature" some do.

Steel is an alloy. I'm sure you've learned in your basic engineering classes that various steel alloys, and how or if it is heat treated, will display various properties of elasticity, plasticity, and resiliance to name a few.

Here is some info on elasticity, plasticity, and resiliance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resilience


With out 1st hand knowledge of the spring and related mag's design, there is no way of knowing if 1) if it was even designed to be load, continously loaded, or left loaded to max capacity and 2) if it is actually capable of meeting the design.


I have looked through the material on those pages.
Please quote the potions which disagree with what I have stated before because I do not see anything.


I have no intentions of wasting the bandwidth needed to post the amount of info on those pages that pertains.

1911Tuner
February 25, 2011, 02:49 PM
This much I know. If I measure the free length of an action spring...install it...and leave it for a month, when I remove it and measure it again, it's about a half-coil shorter than it was originally, and it won't regain its lost length if left free overnight. If I shoot the pistol 2500 times...it's about three coils shorter.

SSN Vet
February 25, 2011, 03:07 PM
if you exceed the elastic limit of the metal, you will experience plastic deformation.

Unless you have detailed info. regarding the alloy and it's treatment (cold work, annealing, etc...) you don't really know the elastic limit. And unless you model up the spring and run a good FEA analysis, you don't know the amount of stress applied by loading the mag.

But Tuner's example shows measurable plastic deformation. Hence the elastic limit was exceeded somewhere.

My guess (and that's all it is) is that with the rectangular pattern springs typically used in pistol mags, you are getting some fairly complex stresses... not only bending in each straight of the spring run, but also torsional stresses at each corner. I'd bet a Snickers bar that the straights runs of wire are all still straight, but that the angle at each corner hasn't sprung back 100%. So a torsional elastic limit has been exceeded, and the spring has experience some plastic deformation and the stress-strain curve has shifted to the right.

And yes.. I think it's feasible that this could happen after one single loading and unloading cycle.

After the first couple load/unload cycles, the stress strain curve has probably shifted as much as it's going to and you'll be running along with a pretty stable geometry and spring force ever so slightly lower than had right out of the obx.

After 2,500 cycles, fatigue has surely ocurred. But I don't think the initial loss of length can be attributed to fatigue.

And my guess is that with normal spring steals, creap isn't happening at normal room temps.

Now donning flame suite in preperation for responses.

Ithaca37
February 25, 2011, 03:09 PM
While "ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature" some do.


Now we are getting somewhere. Which alloys experience significant creep at room temperature? I am not familiar with any. I have only seen creep taken into consideration at high temperatures such as inside turbines.

Regardless of the answer to the above question, any alloys which may experience significant creep at room temperature would be excluded from magazine spring design or the effect of creep would be taken into account in the design. Either way, it becomes a non-issue. Furthermore, creep rates are generally very very low and would not really be an issue for how long magazine are left loaded even if it is months or years.

With out 1st hand knowledge of the spring and related mag's design, there is no way of knowing if 1) if it was even designed to be load, continously loaded, or left loaded to max capacity and 2) if it is actually capable of meeting the design.

This is all irrelevant. Saying that a spring may not have been designed correctly is not fair to the discussion. Of course a poorly designed spring will have problems.

BTW I checked all of those pages you linked to. No discussion of creep as a design issue. What was your point in posting those again?

Ithaca37
February 25, 2011, 03:11 PM
if you exceed the elastic limit of the metal, you will experience plastic deformation.

Unless you have detailed info. regarding the alloy and it's treatment (cold work, annealing, etc...) you don't really know the elastic limit. And unless you model up the spring and run a good FEA analysis, you don't know the amount of stress applied by loading the mag.

But Tuner's example shows measurable plastic deformation. Hence the elastic limit was exceeded somewhere.

My guess (and that's all it is) is that with the rectangular pattern springs typically used in pistol mags, you are getting some fairly complex stresses... not only bending in each straight of the spring run, but also torsional stresses at each corner. I'd bet a Snickers bar that the straights runs of wire are all still straight, but that the angle at each corner hasn't sprung back 100%. So a torsional elastic limit has been exceeded, and the spring has experience some plastic deformation and the stress-strain curve has shifted to the right.

And yes.. I think it's feasible that this could happen after one single loading and unloading cycle.

I stated this previously. This is simple physics. Equally simple is that the amount of plastic strain does not change under static loading (assuming no creep). This means that if a spring is deformed plastically when loaded it will not see additional plastic strain by being left under that static load.

Also, while I do not know which alloys are being used for magazine springs, nor what heat treatments they are being subjected to, you can be sure the engineers designing the springs have that data.

danez71
February 25, 2011, 04:11 PM
Now we are getting somewhere. Which alloys experience significant creep at room temperature? I am not familiar with any.

Regardless of the answer to the above question, any alloys which may experience significant creep at room temperature would be excluded from magazine spring design or the effect of creep would be taken into account in the design. Either way, it becomes a non-issue.


If its a non issue, why ask the question?



BTW I checked all of those pages you linked to. No discussion of creep as a design issue. What was your point in posting those again?


You brought up creep; not me.

You also stated this:
The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading.

That is simply NOT true.

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(deformation)
"The rate of deformation is a function of the material properties, exposure time, exposure temperature and the applied structural load."

"Unlike brittle fracture, creep deformation does not occur suddenly upon the application of stress. Instead, strain accumulates as a result of long-term stress. Creep is a "time-dependent" deformation."

"When subjected to constant stress, viscoelastic materials experience a time-dependent increase in strain. This phenomenon is known as viscoelastic creep."


You need to take a look at the viscoelastic properties of the particular steel alloy in use.
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscoelasticity
"All materials exhibit some viscoelastic response. In common metals such as steel or aluminum, as well as in quartz, at room temperature and at small strain, the behavior does not deviate much from linear elasticity. Synthetic polymers, wood, and human tissue as well as metals at high temperature display significant viscoelastic effects. In some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant. To be complete, an analysis or design involving such materials must incorporate their viscoelastic behavior. Knowledge of the viscoelastic response of a material is based on measurement"



You also stated this:
If you guys can show me where I am wrong I will gladly apologize and amend or remove any incorrect statements.


You have now been shown where you are wrong.

Possibly you havent reach that chapter in your "basic engineering classes".

Ithaca37
February 25, 2011, 05:29 PM
BTW I checked all of those pages you linked to. No discussion of creep as a design issue. What was your point in posting those again?

You brought up creep; not me.

Well, then what was I wrong about that those pages were going to set me straight on? You said that I stated something incorrectly in the post quoted below. Please tell me what is wrong in it that is contained in the pages you linked to.
Originally Posted by Ithaca37 View Post
Wrong.

Wrong.


Um, yes the rules are the same. All of you who have absolutely no idea what you are talking should refrain from commenting on the subject as you only confuse people and serve to perpetuate falsehoods with no basis in reality.


You have no idea what you are talking. It is a myth and does not need debunking, just a simple lesson in materials. ALL steels do not experience creep at room temperature. Creep is the only possible failure mechanism that would occur under this kind of static loading. Scientific proof is sitting in every mechanics of materials book you pick up which is based on 100+ years of research and actual experience. Stop confusing people by pretending to know what you are talking about.


The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading. If a spring deforms plastically when loaded the amount of plastic strain does not change whether the mag is left loaded or unloaded immediately. This is simple mechanics of materials.


If its a non issue, why ask the question?

I like to learn things. Can you provide some examples of steel alloys that show significant creep at room temp or not? If there are some, I would like to know about it.


You also stated this:
Quote:
The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading.
That is simply NOT true.

I also contend that creep is NOT a factor in spring design for room temperature applications. Therefore making my statement true. You can not cherry pick parts of what I stated.

You quote regarding viscoelasticity clearly agrees with me in that it says that for steels at room temperature under small strain, viscoelastic behavior is insignificant.

You have now been shown where you are wrong.

Possibly you havent reach that chapter in your "basic engineering classes".

I have not been proven wrong. You have misquoted me, ignored parts of what I stated to make sound wrong, and incorrectly tried to use a wikipedia quote to prove a false claim which the quote itself actually refutes.

All I care about at this point is some info on steel alloys which have creep problems at room temp.

danez71
February 25, 2011, 06:36 PM
Can you provide some examples of steel alloys that show significant creep at room temp or not?

I'll repeat to answer:
"All materials exhibit some viscoelastic response. In common metals such as steel or aluminum, as well as in quartz, at room temperature and at small strain, the behavior does not deviate much from linear elasticity. Synthetic polymers, wood, and human tissue as well as metals at high temperature display significant viscoelastic effects. In some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant. To be complete, an analysis or design involving such materials must incorporate their viscoelastic behavior. Knowledge of the viscoelastic response of a material is based on measurement"

"All materials" includes all steel alloys. "Room temperature" means room temperature. It doesnt have to be a "significant" amount to make a difference. What part dont you understand?

I also contend that creep is NOT a factor in spring design for room temperature applications.
Please provide supporting evidence in this application.

You quote regarding viscoelasticity clearly agrees with me in that it says that for steels at room temperature under small strain, viscoelastic behavior is insignificant.

No it doesnt support you and it DOES NOT say that nor does it even use the word "insignificant" as you cleaverly inserted. It also CLEARLY SAYS (I'll repeat) " In some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant. "

Please dont incorrectly re-word what I say or insert words that I did not say.


I like to learn things.

Please read the links and you might.


I have only seen creep taken into consideration at high temperatures such as inside turbines.

Just because you havnt seen it, it doesnt mean it isnt taken into consideration for other applications too.


All I care about at this point is some info on steel alloys which have creep problems at room temp.

If thats all you care about at this point, I suggest another forum.

ALL MATERIALS exhibit it. I can not possibly list ALL of the steel alloys in existance as the list is too long.


Its not a question of if there is creep. Its a question as to if the amount of creep has a negative impact.


Again, you stated:If you guys can show me where I am wrong I will gladly apologize and amend or remove any incorrect statements.

You are incorrect that time does not play a part in creep.

You volunteered "apologize and amend or remove any incorrect statements".

Please do so.

Kenneth
March 1, 2011, 08:09 PM
Jeez! Ask a simple question!?:(. If jiminhobesound wanted to start a real peeing contest he would have started a thread about headspace. Down here on Earth most things in life are basically simple. The simple real world answer to the question is; no, you don't need to rotate your magazines. Fair or better quality magazine springs can remain compressed indefinitely. Like I wrote before, flexing the spring is what wears it. Even then, it would have to be flexed A LOT. If you practice once a week or more, use the same magazine, if the spring gets too soft you can (everybody brace yourselves) stretch it back out to nearly its original strength. Function check all of your magazines a couple of times a year just to be on the safe side.

significant viscoelastic effects. In some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant. To be complete, an analysis or design involving such materials must incorporate their viscoelastic behavior. Knowledge of the viscoelastic response of a material is based on measurement"

What the @#&* does viscoelastic response of a material have to do with shootin’ the dang gun anyway? :neener::neener:




"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

makarovnik
March 2, 2011, 05:51 AM
I rotate mine every couple of weeks.

danez71
March 2, 2011, 09:37 AM
What the @#&* does viscoelastic response of a material have to do with shootin’ the dang gun anyway? :neener::neener:

Not much if you dont consider the springs very important. :neener:

Fair or better quality magazine springs can remain compressed indefinitely

Hey.. cool... you just discover something that can release energy indefinitely.

You should bottle it, patent it, and sell it as the worlds next energy source for the indefinite future. We're finally free of oil! :neener:

Oh wait... I'm assuming you ment that not only can the be compressed indefinitely but also spring back too.

Kenneth
March 2, 2011, 05:46 PM
Hey.. cool... you just discover something that can release energy indefinitely.

“Yer a genius Gump”

Oh wait... I'm assuming you ment that not only can the be compressed indefinitely but also spring back too.

Yes, hence the name, “spring”. Otherwise it would be known as a “bend”.

You should bottle it, patent it, and sell it as the worlds next energy source for the indefinite future. We're finally free of oil!

I’ve dreamt of harnessing the energy used to compress springs in the first place all of my life. I’m just not sure if mankind is ready for it. After all, it is a force that can be used for evil as well as for good.

I didn’t spend all those years at Wossamotta U getting my Ph.D in Thinkology for nothing.:cool:

As a practical matter, static loading still wears a spring less than constant flexing. I keep all my magazines for my SHTF firearms full. I practice with one magazine for each gun, and I function check all of my magazines at least twice a year. I have never experienced a magazine spring related malfunction on any of my firearms.

Just as a side note danez71, if I was scoring, you would get more points than Ithaca37, however you could widen the margin by using the spell checker.:D



"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

Ben86
March 2, 2011, 05:58 PM
I practice with one magazine for each gun, and I function check all of my magazines at least twice a year.

How do you practice reloading?

danez71
March 2, 2011, 08:50 PM
Yes, hence the name, “spring”. Otherwise it would be known as a “bend”.


LOL.... or maybe "flat wire".

Just as a side note danez71, if I was scoring, you would get more points than Ithaca37, however you could widen the margin by using the spell checker

Thats like free extra credit!
(I need to use that little free button more often than hardly ever)

ForumSurfer
March 3, 2011, 01:35 AM
Since I switched to 9mm, I'm practicing once or twice weekly...so I'm rotating my mags weekly from what I just realize. I have several mags, but I colored the glock emblem in on 3 of them and those are my carry ones that I clean regularly after dropping them in the dirt during practice sessions and drills.

walking arsenal
March 3, 2011, 02:07 AM
Forget the springs. I'm more worried about the feed lips bending out from being under all that pressure than I am the springs going.

What are the chances of magazine feed lips going south after extended periods of being loaded?

ForumSurfer
March 3, 2011, 02:11 AM
What are the chances of magazine feed lips going south after extended periods of being loaded?

Slim to none on a pistol magazine. Nearly nonexistent on a glock mag since the plastic reinforces the steel.

nalioth
March 3, 2011, 02:36 AM
What are the chances of magazine feed lips going south after extended periods of being loaded?Slim to none on a pistol magazine. Nearly nonexistent on a glock mag since the plastic reinforces the steel.To be perfectly honest, I've only ever seen AR15 mags afflicted with this issue.

I see posts that ascribe this to just about any other magazines, but have never actually seen it.

Ithaca37
March 5, 2011, 02:05 PM
I'll repeat to answer:
"All materials exhibit some viscoelastic response. In common metals such as steel or aluminum, as well as in quartz, at room temperature and at small strain, the behavior does not deviate much from linear elasticity. Synthetic polymers, wood, and human tissue as well as metals at high temperature display significant viscoelastic effects. In some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant. To be complete, an analysis or design involving such materials must incorporate their viscoelastic behavior. Knowledge of the viscoelastic response of a material is based on measurement"

"All materials" includes all steel alloys. "Room temperature" means room temperature. It doesnt have to be a "significant" amount to make a difference. What part dont you understand?

I highlighted the important portion of the paragraph you quoted. Viscoelastic response is insignificant at room temperature (and low strain rates) for steels and many other materials. It is insignificant because behavior does NOT significantly deviate from linear elastic response.

I am well aware that creep is present at room temperature. The issue is how significant is the creep rate. For steels that rate is so low that it can be neglected.

Since I am asking you for citations to support your claims, I will provide one of my own. From Material Science and Engineering: An introduction by William D. Callister. Chapter 8 - Failure of Metals

At a temperature substantially below 0.4Tm (melting temperature) and after the initial deformation, the strain is virtually independent of time.

You have been trying to claim that the creep is high enough that it is an important factor in either spring design or in leaving magazines loaded (I am unclear what your argument is exactly). I have yet to see you provide one citation which states that springs operating at room temperature see significant creep.

You are incorrect that time does not play a part in creep.

You volunteered "apologize and amend or remove any incorrect statements".

Please do so.

I am well aware of the time dependent nature of creep. I am also well aware that creep in steel is generally considered insignificant below 30-60% of the alloy's melting temperature.


All I care about at this point is some info on steel alloys which have creep problems at room temp.
If thats all you care about at this point, I suggest another forum.

ALL MATERIALS exhibit it. I can not possibly list ALL of the steel alloys in existance as the list is too long.


Its not a question of if there is creep. Its a question as to if the amount of creep has a negative impact.

If you bothered to read what I said (it is quoted here for your convenience look a few lines above at the part in bold), I stated that I wanted to see examples of alloys which exhibited significant creep at room temperature. I know what creep is and already stated that at room temperature it is so low that it is not an issue. You claimed I was wrong and claimed to be aware of alloys for which creep posed a problem at room temperature (i.e. the rate is sufficiently high so as to be a design issue). I asked to see examples and you have provided none.

I also have yet to see you provide a source for your claim that creep is an issue in magazine springs (or any spring with a room temperature operational environment).

Out of curiosity, what is your background? I am a mechanical engineer.

danez71
May 27, 2011, 12:19 AM
I was doing some back searching and ran across this thread. I didnt realize you were waiting for me to reply.


You have been trying to claim that the creep is high enough that it is an important factor in either spring design or in leaving magazines loaded

No I have not. Quit making stuff up.

I am well aware of the time dependent nature of creep.

But yet you wrote this earlier in this thread.

The amount of plastic deformation that the spring will experience does not change with time under static loading.

You contradict yourself.


)I have yet to see you provide one citation which states that springs operating at room temperature see significant creep.


WHAT?!?! Did you read any of my posts that contained A LOT of sources for you? Seriously.. did you read it and if so, did you understand it... its right here in this thread.

I'm sure you'll now want to argue what 'significant' is so I'll just go ahead and let you set the definition so then I can catch your contradictions later and you wont say that what I come up with doesnt apply.


You have provided 1 little snippit of info that doesnt even include the whole context in which it was written.

I have provided A LOT of sources and resources.

You are either not a mechanical engineer or you selectively read.

You need to go back and reread, stop making things up that i say, and stop contradicting yourself as shown above.

If you enjoyed reading about "Magazine Rotation." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!