For carry, switching EMP for Kahr P9 [or similar]?


PDA






Orion8472
February 22, 2011, 02:13 PM
What do you think about the possibility of switching a Springfield Armory EMP for something like the Kahr P9 for conceal carry? I bought the EMP because I liked the way it looked, . . .and it does shoot amazingly well, . . . however, I'm not sure it is the best platform for carry. What is your opinion?

This isn't a "you should get this instead" type of thread, but about "switching to a possibly better conceal carry platform".

If you enjoyed reading about "For carry, switching EMP for Kahr P9 [or similar]?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
usp9
February 22, 2011, 02:18 PM
What would constitute "the best platform for carry" in your opinion? The EMP and Kahr are similar enough in many ways to ask what specifically you are looking for in a CCW.

I prefer the simplicity of the Kahr, so my answer would be affirmative, but that may not be your reasoning.

docnyt
February 22, 2011, 02:20 PM
Hmmm. If it were me I'd keep the EMP. I do carry IWB a 1911 bobtail so YMMV.

Lonestar49
February 22, 2011, 02:23 PM
...

What would constitute "the best platform for carry" in your opinion? The EMP and Kahr are similar enough in many ways to ask what specifically you are looking for in a CCW.

I prefer the simplicity of the Kahr, so my answer would be affirmative, but that may not be your reasoning.




What he said above..

Not my guns, but -
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/DSC_1646.jpg


I've had my EMP 9mm for some 3yrs with just about 7400 flawless rounds..

Was and remains, a tack-driver, natural/balanced point and shoot SAO ccw gun.

However, this seems not the case for you, ccw wise, and many, many, like your other choice..


Ls

Orion8472
February 22, 2011, 02:43 PM
Oh, my EMP is accurate, but this is more about the mechanics of a carry gun. Some believe that a person needs fewer steps to go through IF there comes the unfortunate time to use it as such. In otherwords, they would submit that a DAO pistol is best for conceal carry, limiting the need to remember to take the thumb safety off.

I know that many people say to just practice with whatever platform you have, and I am on the fence on the topic. I can [and have] practice the EMP steps, but would I be "better off" if I only had to pull, aim, and pull the trigger? These are the thoughts I'm considering.

Lonestar49
February 22, 2011, 03:01 PM
...

Less is more, and I'm a firm believer in this..

Therefore, you have one less step (needed to be learned/practiced) as you say, just pull and pull..

I go between Sig P229n/r 40, 9mm and both are DA/SA yet when I go SAO, locked and cocked, it doesn't seem like "a step" taken, more like "just a reaction" when the 1911 comes out, gets drawn.. Once something becomes ingrained by repeated learning, yes it is a step taken but, after so long, more so "reactionary" vs having to think about it.

However, comfort levels also include, just that, a comfort in knowing what little one needs to do, other than react, if the need arises..

Nothing wrong with that,



Ls

docnyt
February 22, 2011, 03:13 PM
You've probably heard this before, but one can argue that:

"In an emergency situation, you do not rise to the occasion, but rather, you revert to your level of training."

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 03:20 PM
when I go SAO, locked and cocked, it doesn't seem like "a step" taken, more like "just a reaction" when the 1911 comes out, gets drawn.. Once something becomes ingrained by repeated learning, yes it is a step taken but, after so long, more so "reactionary" vs having to think about it.

Its called muscle memory. I am sure you have developed the same thing in reguards to the DA/SA transition. This is why one must practice, practice practice...

Your motor skills and cordination will be negatively impacted in a real defense situation. Normal everyday motor skills go out the window. It is like any hand eye cordination skill. Basketball players do not think about the steps needed to catch and then release a shot. They simply do it. Shooting a gun is fundementally the same IMHO.

I naturally thumb the safety on my 1911s or BHPs upon presentation. The safety is off before my finger is in the trigger. It is not a conscience movement it is part of the presentation of the gun. YMMV

For me the Kahr is a much slower shooter. I feel the need to stage the very long DAO trigger before I break the shot. I am capable of fast presentation but the long pull throws me off a bit. I shoot more DA/SA and SAO than DAO so it makes sense that this is the case for me. In the end its all about what is comfortable for you and what you have trained with/for.

Orion8472
February 22, 2011, 03:43 PM
That is something to consider. I don't have a DAO weapon. All others are SAO, with the exception of my FNP-9, being DA/SA. There could be truth in me being messed up with a long DAO trigger pull.

Thanks for offering that.

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2011, 07:24 PM
Not my guns, but -
The least you can do is give me picture credit :rolleyes:

Those two are mine. The Kahr replace my S&W M642 as the gun a grab when going out the door.

I don't carry the EMP yet, mostly because i only have a little over a thousand rounds through it and I'm still looking for just the right holster to carry it in. The problem certainly isn't the thumb safety, as I grew up with a 1911 and snicking off the safety as I make the decision it almost 2nd nature to me.

It is not that the trigger is any harder to press through to fire the shot, the bigest difference it that the Kahr has a longer reset. The Kahr trigger needs to be run like revolver... you don't prep the trigger between shots, you just pull it through

rellascout
February 22, 2011, 07:42 PM
It is not that the trigger is any harder to press through to fire the shot, the bigest difference it that the Kahr has a longer reset. The Kahr trigger needs to be run like revolver... you don't prep the trigger between shots, you just pull it through

I agree with that but if you are not shooting enough Revolver you have to think about it. :cool: LOL

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2011, 08:20 PM
You are right, I was just lucky that I was switching from a M642

Revolvers and DA/SA or SAO triggers, when shot at speed, are run almost completely differently. With one you are waiting, with the trigger, for the sights to settle and in the other you are racing the trigger with the sights

Lonestar49
February 22, 2011, 08:31 PM
The least you can do is give me picture credit :rolleyes:


...

Been so long (in my pic file) I wasn't sure who's they were.. :o

It's an older age thing.. :neener:


Ls

jyo
February 22, 2011, 10:50 PM
Both the EMP and the P9 will do the trick---I have handled and shot both---very fine pistols---I carry a Kahr CW9 and have another for my wife---you can buy both Kahrs for the price of one EMP with leftover cash for extra mags, ammo, etc.

jrod102
February 23, 2011, 12:08 AM
(rellascout)I feel the need to stage the very long DAO trigger before I break the shot. I am capable of fast presentation but the long pull throws me off a bit

Amen brother!!!
_____________________________________________________________

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you! :D

Winkman822
February 23, 2011, 02:54 PM
Both will do the trick, it just boils down to whether you want a striker fired DAO(ish) gun or a more traditional hammer fired SAO gun that has a manual safety.

As far as the manual safety is concerned, if you spend enough time doing draw and fire drills or draw and dry fire dirlls, you'll have no issue with the manual safety since sweeping it off will become a natural occurrence.

The P9 and EMP are substantially the same in many respects, it just comes down to personal preferance. I for one, will keep my EMP 9 along with my CQB Compact, Thunder Ranch Special and TRP. YMMV, however.

Orion8472
February 23, 2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks again for the responses thus far. Many good points.

iblong
February 24, 2011, 09:51 AM
I have a CW9 and a PM9 both are very nice and accurate but If I had the EMP
neither would see carry time.

Uteridge
February 24, 2011, 10:42 AM
The Kahr is the simpler of the two guns but you should have no problem mastering the EMP if you dry fire on a regular basis from the holster. The draw stroke on a 1911 style weapon should include taking the weapon off safe after you have cleared the holster and rotated the weapon parallel to the deck just as you are pushing your pistol out towards your intended target. If you practice this way every time you will do it by muscle memory. The proper grip on a 1911 is with the shooting hand thumb on top of the safety latch anyway so if you practice your draw, dry fire, and use a proper grip there is no reason to worry about forgetting your safety in a gunfight.

You will always fall back to your level of training. If you train to take the weapon off safe during the draw and you practice your draw often then when you draw your gun in defense of your life the gun will come up with the safety off. A simpler pistol is not a substitute for training. There are a lot of things going on during a gunfight that you will not be prepared for if you don't train. If all you do is go to the square range and work on shooting in a standing position 7 yards from the target then you may become a good shot but you are not truly competent with your weapon as it relates to self defense. It's not always the fastest or the best shot that wins in a gunfight; it is usually the most tactically sound. Learn to draw from the move and in any conceivable position you could be in to start a gunfight. Learn the difference between cover and concealment and learn to find and use cover effectively. If you put in the training time it doesn't matter which of the two guns you use because you will be intimately familiar with it. What does matter is that you get a good baseline level of training and then build off of that. Get with an instructor that will show you an efficient effective draw stroke and work on it until it is second nature. There is no need to "remember" to take off your safety; make it part of your draw stroke and your weapon will always come up ready to go.

Orion8472
February 24, 2011, 10:52 AM
I think this line sums up this thread quite well:

"A simpler pistol is not a substitute for training."

Thanks for that, Uteridge! :)

What I would like to do, though, is find a lower profile thumb safety for my EMP. The one on it, IMO, sticks out too far and I think that a lower profile would work better for me.

Uteridge
February 24, 2011, 11:13 AM
Orion, you do want it to stick out enough to keep your thumb on it when you are shooting. I apologize for not having had a chance yet to shoot an EMP so I don't know exactly how far it does stick out but your safety on a 1911 is basically a shelf to rest your shooting hand thumb on. This does two things for you during your draw/shot: first it lets you take your safety off and shoot without repositioning your grip and second it ensures that there is no way that you can accidentally put your safety on while you are shooting.

Uteridge
February 24, 2011, 11:18 AM
It could be that the EMP is too small to shoot with this technique so if someone who owns one knows the EMP better please correct me. I carry a Commander size 1911 and with both it and a full size you want to keep your thumb on top of the safety if you can become comfortable shooting that way and if your palm is big enough to still disengage the grip safety.

Zerodefect
February 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
I think this line sums up this thread quite well:

"A simpler pistol is not a substitute for training."

Thanks for that, Uteridge! :)

What I would like to do, though, is find a lower profile thumb safety for my EMP. The one on it, IMO, sticks out too far and I think that a lower profile would work better for me.

Remove your existing safety and trim the outside trailing edge of the paddle down with a dremel. Most thumb safeties have too much size there.

Or buy an Ed Brown safety and trim it's paddle down to what you'd like, then have a gunsmith fit the safeties guts and then install it onto your 1911.

When you trim it down to fit your thumb, you'll be able to keep your thumb over the safety, and your thumb will be pointed up less, and forward more.
This will allow the web of your hand to also have better contact with the grip safety.

For example this is what I did to a EB safety so that it fit my thumb with my Kimber:

before:
http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss290/zerodefect2533/zzzebts.jpg

after:
http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss290/zerodefect2533/zzzebtsmodified.jpg

clance
February 24, 2011, 12:12 PM
What do you think about the possibility of switching a Springfield Armory EMP for something like the Kahr P9 for conceal carry? I bought the EMP because I liked the way it looked, . . .and it does shoot amazingly well, . . . however, I'm not sure it is the best platform for carry. What is your opinion?

This isn't a "you should get this instead" type of thread, but about "switching to a possibly better conceal carry platform".

My daily carry is a Kahr TP-9. I decided on the Kahr due to many factors.

1.) Concealibility: Very thin, light weight, contours of the design doesn't have the visibility of other autos (like the EMP). I don't use a holster but carry my TP-9 in the waistband of my pants to lower even more the pistol signature.

2.) Simplicity: Point and shoot design, no thumb, grip or trigger safety and a "true" DOA. Very safe as long as you keep your finger off the trigger and use that thing between your ears!

3.) Maintenance: Polymer/Stainless - metal parts less prone to corrosion, polymer tough, between the two less wear. Doesn't excuse proper maintenance, but won't be a major factor if delayed or forgotten till next trip to the range.

4.) Reliable: In my experience I have had no failure to fire, feed or eject problems with either the TP-9 or the K9 that I traded in to get the lighter TP no matter what I fed them. Kahr manual recommends using P+ ammo (or at least according to my TP's manual they did?) for flawless function.

For me the Kahr is worth the price even though there is less expensive alternatives. To my way of thinking if a number of LEO are using them for backups and personal carries then there must be a reason.

The reason why I went with the TP over the stand P is cause of the longer barrel/slide which enhances the sight plane, not that I expect to engage a target more then 7 yds away but it does add additional weight further out in front to lower muzzle flip! The problem with most conceal carries is not the barrel lenght but the grip profile which on the Kahr is very low.

Orion8472
February 24, 2011, 12:46 PM
Thanks for the information and pictures, Zerodefect! Yes, that has been my only issue with the gun, . . . how my thumb rides on the safety. Perhaps modifying it as in your picture would be what would make it feel better in my hand. It's a good look! I'll see what my gunsmith can do for me.

Again, thanks!

9mmepiphany
February 24, 2011, 01:08 PM
What I would like to do, though, is find a lower profile thumb safety for my EMP. The one on it, IMO, sticks out too far and I think that a lower profile would work better for me.
Perhaps modifying it as in your picture would be what would make it feel better in my hand. It's a good look! I'll see what my gunsmith can do for me.
I think you would be hard pressed to trim the factory safeties much narrower and still be able to use them...I can see beveling them a bit to take the sharp edges off

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_1651.jpg

You have to remember that you still need to clear the plunger tube

If you enjoyed reading about "For carry, switching EMP for Kahr P9 [or similar]?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!